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Alaris
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Looking forward to this...

Post by Alaris »

I've seen this site a few times off and on during my quest for truth. I have several theories Id like to share and get feedback on as well as engage in some respectful, thoughtful discussion. I promise to always be respectful even if I disagree. :D

I was raised in the church and believe there is a balance between being too open minded and being too close minded. I spent an afternoon a few months ago looking for quotes from Joseph Smith on the subject of open vs closed mindedness. I found several quotes about his frustration with saints being closed minded but none about saints being too open minded (though I know he struggled with saints being too open minded about speaking in tongues in the early days.) Anyway, I am of the opinion that saints too often err on the side of close mindedness to their own detriment. The Prophet Joseph Smith certainly was frusrtated by this in his day as well.


“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].”



2 Nephi 28:30
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.


I wish I had more family and friends who didn't shut down like a wary clam every time I want to talk about Bigfoot or speculate on premortality or what Joseph Smith said about the Holy Ghost's probation. I hope I have found that home here.

Alaris

lundbaek
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Re: Looking forward to this...

Post by lundbaek »

It might help if you could give some examples of saints erring on the side of close mindedness. I have given no previous thought to this matter. But it seems to me that LDS people may be closed minded on some issues or principles of the gospel and overly open minded on others. There are some topics that interest some people and other topics that interest other people.

Thomas
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Post by Thomas »

How about the teaching to avoid the mysteries?

Alma 12:
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Lizzy60
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Several weeks ago my bishop talked about a time on his mission that his companion was ill, and he had to stay in the apartment for most of the week. He decided that he was going to study Daniel, Isaiah and Revelation, and try to understand these books of prophecy better. As he began his study, he prayed about where to begin, and he received personal revelation that he should put this course of study aside, and instead concentrate on the basic principles of the gospel, and the things he was teaching as a missionary. Great missionary story, except that he then told us that we don't need to worry about these hard-to-understand books of scriptures, and that the gospel,basics are where we should spend our gospel studies.

I believe he received the inspiration he needed as a missionary, for that particular time in his life, but I don't believe that this was then applicable for the entire membership of a ward more than 25 years later.

I have tried to discuss end-time prophecy with family members, and have been told that if our GA's don't teach it in Comference, then we shouldn't be speculating about it. I've even been labeled an apostate for listening to Glenn Beck, et al.

Anyway, welcome to the funny farm, Alaris! Put on your thick skin, and grab a bowl of popcorn.

lundbaek
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Re: Looking forward to this...

Post by lundbaek »

We, the entire membership of the Church, have been told to study Isaiah. But perhaps you have noticed that SS and PH/RS lessons focus on basic principles of the gospel and afford little opportunity to discuss anything that could lead to controversy.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Looking forward to this...

Post by oneClimbs »

Any attempt to ascend towards God must be guarded with caution. You are climbing a mountain and it is totally worth your efforts but the cost of carelessness increases the higher up you go. You cannot have ascension without the risk of falling and you cannot be exalted if you stay at the bottom.

Motion is necessary, speed is not. There is a difference between a cautious climb and recklessly sprinting up and across chasms impatiently. God is not at the top of the mountain, he is with you in the climb.

Some people are not closed-minded, they just aren't willing to increase their pace at the moment and perhaps that is wisdom on their part. Careful not to let ambition and pride rush you into tragedy while seeking to drag others along with you. Something may feel very important to you, but realize that everyone is fighting their own battles and has their own desires burning within.

It's not a good thing to assume that everyone around you doesn't care or is not on the path they should be. If you truly care about others, you'll learn what they truly care about and help guide them instead of imposing your own desires. Ponder these words from George MacDonald, there are some great pearls in there:

"The duty of Christians toward their fellow men and women is to let their light shine, not to force on them their interpretations of God’s designs. [...] Why should I care to convince you that my doctrine is right? What does any honest person care what you think of his doctrine? To convince another by intellect alone, while the heart remains unmoved, is but to add to his condemnation."

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Alaris
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Re: Looking forward to this...

Post by Alaris »

Thomas wrote:How about the teaching to avoid the mysteries?

Alma 12:
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
Perhaps if ldsfreedomforum existed back then verse 9 would read "shall not impart except in the private area of ldsfreedomforum.com" O:-) Seriously though that's a great scripture. Thank you.

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Alaris
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Re: Looking forward to this...

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5tev3 wrote:Any attempt to ascend towards God must be guarded with caution. You are climbing a mountain and it is totally worth your efforts but the cost of carelessness increases the higher up you go. You cannot have ascension without the risk of falling and you cannot be exalted if you stay at the bottom.

Motion is necessary, speed is not. There is a difference between a cautious climb and recklessly sprinting up and across chasms impatiently. God is not at the top of the mountain, he is with you in the climb.

Some people are not closed-minded, they just aren't willing to increase their pace at the moment and perhaps that is wisdom on their part. Careful not to let ambition and pride rush you into tragedy while seeking to drag others along with you. Something may feel very important to you, but realize that everyone is fighting their own battles and has their own desires burning within.

It's not a good thing to assume that everyone around you doesn't care or is not on the path they should be. If you truly care about others, you'll learn what they truly care about and help guide them instead of imposing your own desires. Ponder these words from George MacDonald, there are some great pearls in there:

"The duty of Christians toward their fellow men and women is to let their light shine, not to force on them their interpretations of God’s designs. [...] Why should I care to convince you that my doctrine is right? What does any honest person care what you think of his doctrine? To convince another by intellect alone, while the heart remains unmoved, is but to add to his condemnation."
These are great words of advice 5tev3. I have been thinking along a similar course. My wife and I have both asked for further light and knowledge and have received. It is truly difficult after receiving to not want to run out and declare it on the rooftops or at least find someone who sees eye-to-eye. Motion is required as written in the scriptures quoted in this thread; running faster than one's strength is not.

Pride is a tricky fallacy when applied to knowledge. I'm careful when formulating theories during my studies not to attach any pride to being right or wrong. There is no pride in truth. It simply is. Pride doesn't belong anywhere along the straight and narrow, and I will do my best not to have pride much less wounded pride even when the first response is a challenge to which the answer was provided in the first post. :ymhug: Thank you.

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Alaris
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Re: Looking forward to this...

Post by Alaris »

Lizzy60 wrote:Several weeks ago my bishop talked about a time on his mission that his companion was ill, and he had to stay in the apartment for most of the week. He decided that he was going to study Daniel, Isaiah and Revelation, and try to understand these books of prophecy better. As he began his study, he prayed about where to begin, and he received personal revelation that he should put this course of study aside, and instead concentrate on the basic principles of the gospel, and the things he was teaching as a missionary. Great missionary story, except that he then told us that we don't need to worry about these hard-to-understand books of scriptures, and that the gospel,basics are where we should spend our gospel studies.

I believe he received the inspiration he needed as a missionary, for that particular time in his life, but I don't believe that this was then applicable for the entire membership of a ward more than 25 years later.

I have tried to discuss end-time prophecy with family members, and have been told that if our GA's don't teach it in Comference, then we shouldn't be speculating about it. I've even been labeled an apostate for listening to Glenn Beck, et al.

Anyway, welcome to the funny farm, Alaris! Put on your thick skin, and grab a bowl of popcorn.
Thank you Lizzy60. You won't ever get such a response from me no matter how much you listen to Glenn Beck. Just Kidding I listen to him too. If Trump vs Hillary doesn't cause you to take a long look at your food supply nothing will!

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thaabit
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Lizzy60 wrote:As he began his study, he prayed about where to begin, and he received personal revelation that he should put this course of study aside, and instead concentrate on the basic principles of the gospel, and the things he was teaching as a missionary.
From https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/heb/5 ... ang=eng#11:
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

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thaabit
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Re: Looking forward to this...

Post by thaabit »

5tev3 wrote: Motion is necessary, speed is not. There is a difference between a cautious climb and recklessly sprinting up and across chasms impatiently. God is not at the top of the mountain, he is with you in the climb.

Some people are not closed-minded, they just aren't willing to increase their pace at the moment and perhaps that is wisdom on their part. Careful not to let ambition and pride rush you into tragedy while seeking to drag others along with you. Something may feel very important to you, but realize that everyone is fighting their own battles and has their own desires burning within.
While I agree it isn't wise to cast pearls before swine, it does feel like the collective "motion" of the members is stagnating when it comes to gospel scholarship, and that's frustrating. I've had many instances where I've introduced small nuggets of non-mainstream ideas to individuals and groups and been harshly rebuffed. The frustration to me is that we should be the most enlightened, the most truth-seeking, the most thoughtful of all ppl on earth, and we just aren't. Sunday school is often filled with trite thoughts and simple platitudes, and we rarely dive below the surface at all. If we can't accept even the small nuggets of truth, how will we be prepared for the great manifestations of the sealed portion when it arrives, containing a revelation of the world from the beginning to the end? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-n ... lang=eng#6

I worry, will we be ready?

Lizzy60
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Re: Looking forward to this...

Post by Lizzy60 »

thaabit wrote:
Lizzy60 wrote:As he began his study, he prayed about where to begin, and he received personal revelation that he should put this course of study aside, and instead concentrate on the basic principles of the gospel, and the things he was teaching as a missionary.
From https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/heb/5 ... ang=eng#11:
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
To be clear, I believe my bishop, as a young missionary teaching prospective converts, was given appropriate personal revelation for the time and place in his life. However, when he related this experience 20 years later, and told the entire ward that we don't need to worry about studying the ancient prophets about last days events, but we should all concentrate on the basics, we then get the environment you are finding when you share a little of the deeper doctrine, and are reprimanded. Most of the people in my ward are transplants from UT, mostly from BYU, and are not gospel neophytes. Alas, our Gospel Doctrine classes are full of what my ward calls, proudly, the Primary answers.

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