Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

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aspietroll
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Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

Post by aspietroll »

Before you can answer that, let's do a 101 of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx:
We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy.

The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.
So the proletariat, an organized political movement with legal muscle, sets out to implement control of all capital--not all wealth, but capital, which means physical possessions along with wealth--of all people.

Now if the proletariat tries to, fore example, redistribute all the peasant land at once, society may vote out or overthrow the proletariat parties before the bulk of society has become controlled by the state. So the move toward land seizure comes a little bit at a time. In a communist state there is no one law that nationalizes all land but instead, that is the end result of many laws passed over time.

"Means of measures...which appear economically insufficient and untenable..." means there is a progressive governmental decree which is unsustainable. Social Security and Obamacare in their current forms are examples. And in the name of fixing problems with existing flawed progressive programs, more far reaching progressive programs are imposed. So those "insufficient and untenable" measure "necessitate further inroads upon the old social order".

After writing this, Karl Marx lists ten goals known as The Ten Planks of Communism. All ten must be completely enforced in any nation before that country has been completely socialized. Only then can it move to communism.
  • 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

Take every goal on that list and rate percentage-wise how close is America to being at that goal?

After you've rated each goal between 0% and 100% find the average of all ten of these percentages. And I dont think any one of these ten things will be marked at under 50% by anyone in this thread.

For example, Plank #5 is 100%. The only difference between how America carried that out and Marxist's goal is that our centralized bank is a private bank with a monopoly on credit enforced by law. Being a private institution and not state owned, records of the spending activity of the Federal Reserve are available only to insiders of the Federal Reserve. So America really went one step further.

Plank #2 is also listed as 100%. A progressive income tax exists here for all people.


Plank #1 is Abolition of property in private hands and all land to be rented by occupiers from the state. Is it impossible in America to own land without renting it? If you dont pay rent on a home, you get kicked out. If you dont pay a property tax, what happens is the same thing. But it is still "normal" for a middle class person to own a relatively large yard and decent house.

This page details examples of laws in the United States which relate to every one of the ten planks. Use this to help brainstorm.

Seek the Truth
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

Post by Seek the Truth »

40%.

Fiannan
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12983

Re: Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

Post by Fiannan »

In people's opinions how socialist are:

Members of the Church?
Leaders of the Church?

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aspietroll
captain of 50
Posts: 62

Re: Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

Post by aspietroll »

Seek the Truth wrote: August 18th, 2017, 11:15 pm40%.
What leads you to that?

America can be considered 90% to 100% socialized if federal agencies used every law on the books at their disposal. The 2nd plank could be considered to be 10% to 20% complete in 1920 when it was applied only to a few of the wealthiest, but with the perspective of looking back through time we can say the 2nd plank was 100% accomplished in 1920 because the ability of the State to enforce it was available.

Equal obligation of all to work is at 40% today, with the fact the IRS can fine you for not having contributed enough of an income tax in previous years and inflationary policies of the Federal Reserve making a "two income household" family more and more the norm. This 40% was probably closer to 50% in the sixties shortly after President Kennedy's Executive Order 11000 was signed into law for the government to boost production, recruitment, training, and labor of workers as much as possible. Shortly after that Executive Order was signed into law, the Office of Economic Opportunity came into existence. Since then it has been merged with the Department of Health and Human Services and most of its programs have been gutted of finances, but they still exist on the books and can be empowered to recruit, or draft, labor, should FEMA, created by Nixon via Executive Order, require it.
Plank #6 has been mostly accomplished as well, at least as far as the mainstream media are concerned. However, with the arrival of the Internet (ironically, a government creation), it has become much more difficult for the American establishment to “control the narrative,” so to speak. The Internet has made possible many things that were once unthinkable, such as the diffusion of the doctrines of liberty and the disclosure of news that the government-controlled media ignore or actively try to stifle.

Of course, lest we forget, the U.S. government retains the power to shut down the Internet should it become too much of a threat. The Internet has also become an instrument of comprehensive and essentially unchecked state surveillance. As we have but lately found out, no e-mail is sent unremarked, no Facebook post unnoticed, and no forum posting truly anonymous in a day when the federal government no longer acknowledges any restraints on its authority to spy on its own citizens. And other media are just as surely under the federal government’s thumb, with television, radio, telephone, and cable networks all under government control, if not outright ownership (yet). Since 1934, the FCC has tightly regulated all forms of electronic media, allegedly to ensure that use of the airwaves was equitably allocated. But in 2006, the FCC dispelled any doubts about whose interests it truly serves when it declined to investigate allegations (later revealed to be true) that the NSA had been compelling telecommunications corporations to assist them in illegal espionage on American citizens.

But in the meantime, Americans still enjoy the freedom of the press, and nearly unfettered access to the great writings of all ages that constitute our heritage. The Internet continues to be exploited by the private sector to magnificent effect, bringing about marvelous new means to buy and sell products, to create and maintain social and professional networks, and to store, disseminate, and access information.
Charles Scaliger; The New American

So percentage wise, that plank could be 95% realized. Or is it 30% realized?

onefour1
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1596

Re: Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

Post by onefour1 »

I believe America is more indifferent than socialist. Those who live off the government long term and never get a job when they are able to do so even in times when jobs are plenty and they are able are socialist. To me a real problem we have is how many people would sell their country down the road for a cash payment from George Soros?

freedomforall
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Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

Post by freedomforall »

aspietroll wrote: August 18th, 2017, 10:40 pm Before you can answer that, let's do a 101 of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx:
We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy.

The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.
So the proletariat, an organized political movement with legal muscle, sets out to implement control of all capital--not all wealth, but capital, which means physical possessions along with wealth--of all people.

Now if the proletariat tries to, fore example, redistribute all the peasant land at once, society may vote out or overthrow the proletariat parties before the bulk of society has become controlled by the state. So the move toward land seizure comes a little bit at a time. In a communist state there is no one law that nationalizes all land but instead, that is the end result of many laws passed over time.

"Means of measures...which appear economically insufficient and untenable..." means there is a progressive governmental decree which is unsustainable. Social Security and Obamacare in their current forms are examples. And in the name of fixing problems with existing flawed progressive programs, more far reaching progressive programs are imposed. So those "insufficient and untenable" measure "necessitate further inroads upon the old social order".

After writing this, Karl Marx lists ten goals known as The Ten Planks of Communism. All ten must be completely enforced in any nation before that country has been completely socialized. Only then can it move to communism.
  • 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

Take every goal on that list and rate percentage-wise how close is America to being at that goal?

After you've rated each goal between 0% and 100% find the average of all ten of these percentages. And I dont think any one of these ten things will be marked at under 50% by anyone in this thread.

For example, Plank #5 is 100%. The only difference between how America carried that out and Marxist's goal is that our centralized bank is a private bank with a monopoly on credit enforced by law. Being a private institution and not state owned, records of the spending activity of the Federal Reserve are available only to insiders of the Federal Reserve. So America really went one step further.

Plank #2 is also listed as 100%. A progressive income tax exists here for all people.


Plank #1 is Abolition of property in private hands and all land to be rented by occupiers from the state. Is it impossible in America to own land without renting it? If you dont pay rent on a home, you get kicked out. If you dont pay a property tax, what happens is the same thing. But it is still "normal" for a middle class person to own a relatively large yard and decent house.

This page details examples of laws in the United States which relate to every one of the ten planks. Use this to help brainstorm.
No one owns land without Allodial Title. With AT property tax is non-existant. Those paying property tax are paying monthly rent. One can own the house sitting on property but that is the extent of it.

For info see the Youtube video "Constitution Class" by Michael Badnarik.

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Robin Hood
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Posts: 13111
Location: England

Re: Percentage wise, how Socialist is America?

Post by Robin Hood »

In my view the US is nowhere near socialist.
In percentage terms I'd say single figures.

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