Why debate polygamy?

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djinwa
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Why debate polygamy?

Post by djinwa »

I don't come here regularly. Was just browsing the thread on sealings and reading the debate on polygamy.

In 1997, I had the same question - is polygamy required for exaltation?

Different members and leaders had different opinions. It made no sense for me to determine for myself what the requirements were for heaven. That is like a player making the rules to the game as you go along.

I determined that I would have to appeal to those with a direct line to God. So I called church headquarters and asked if polygamy was required for exaltation.

I was passed around and finally a guy told me the church has no position on the matter and I was to pray and find out for myself.

So......back to square one - a player deciding the rules of the game. How does that work? What if all the players make different rules?

My wife got different answers to prayer than I did, so now what?

We tell investigators we get special revelation through our prophets, yet they let us argue endlessly over basic doctrine.

So just know that you can argue forever, and have whatever opinions or answers to prayer you want, but IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!

You can't decide the rules.

And you also can't get the prophet to decide the rules.

So you probably don't want to invest much time or money in the deal if you don't know where you are headed.

gardener4life
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by gardener4life »

Hey you are so right on this. I wanted to tell you to keep speaking up for good. It does good when good people stand up for good when things are chaotic in society.

Michelle
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Michelle »

About praying and getting different answers.

I have a lot of friends who say the Spirit told them something and the Spirit tells me it is not true. I'm not talking about, we have different missions and paths in life so we got different answers, like actual true or not true.

It seems that, like we are warned in Doctrine and Covenants 50, there are many spirits abroad who seek to deceive us. We may mistake a "familiar" spirit for the Holy Spirit because that is who we listen to more often.

If we want to discern, we must know the voice of the Holy Spirit. We spend time listening to His voice in scriptures, words of the prophets, and in obeying His promptings to us.

If we spend a lot of time reading scriptural commentaries, books about the prophets and seeking superstitious signs, we will be deceived. None of these are His voice, but another's voice and if it becomes more familiar to us than the actual Holy Spirit. We will be deceived.

We must drink from the pure source of living water, not downstream where all manner of pollution and philosophies of men have tainted the water and made it filthy.

Juliet
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Juliet »

Official Declaration 1
The Bible and the Book of Mormon teach that monogamy is God’s standard for marriage unless He declares otherwise (see 2 Samuel 12:7–8 and Jacob 2:27, 30).

davedan
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by davedan »

polygamy (like adoption) is an ancient welfare system meant to care for the fatherless and widow.
polygamy is illegal in the West and there are alternative welfare systems in operation.

in my opinion, our accepting the calling of home teacher and visiting teacher fulfills the purpose and requirement of the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.

Knowing this, we could all better commit ourselves to being better home and visiting teachers knowing how it is directly tied to our sealing covenant.

Fiannan
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Fiannan »

in my opinion, our accepting the calling of home teacher and visiting teacher fulfills the purpose and requirement of the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.
That's awkward. The first commandment given to Adam and Noah was to "multiply and replenish the earth." Marriage is ultimately an institution for raising children...all other benefits are secondary or fringe to that. So unless someone is a donor to any single sisters on their home teaching route then there is no fulfillment of that purpose.

MMbelieve
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by MMbelieve »

Fiannan wrote: August 10th, 2017, 1:19 am
in my opinion, our accepting the calling of home teacher and visiting teacher fulfills the purpose and requirement of the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.
That's awkward. The first commandment given to Adam and Noah was to "multiply and replenish the earth." Marriage is ultimately an institution for raising children...all other benefits are secondary or fringe to that. So unless someone is a donor to any single sisters on their home teaching route then there is no fulfillment of that
Last edited by MMbelieve on August 10th, 2017, 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dave62
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Dave62 »

The Book of Mormon being one of our most important primary documents is very, very explicit on this matter.

paid2play
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by paid2play »

In my opinion Celestial Plural marriage is essential for the highest degree in the kingdom of God, many men like Joseph Smith, BY, John Taylor, Abraham, Jacob, etc have stated it several times and or lived it, many will believe contrary to that of course, also many will say it has been taken away at this time, which of course is left up to interpretation. Many will receive different answers because like God said there are 3 Kingdoms of God and in those kingdoms there are many degrees, you cannot make or get a telestial person to understand the Celestial laws, (i'm not saying a person who does not understand is bad or anything) but everyone is different and has a different level of understanding, they may not accept it now but will later who knows. in my opinion you receive answers to your prayers according to the desire of your heart and your level of understanding, which is why many receive different answers to the same question.

Fiannan
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Fiannan »

Dave62 wrote: August 10th, 2017, 5:23 am The Book of Mormon being one of our most important primary documents is very, very explicit on this matter.
David and Solomon took hundreds and hundreds of wives and concubines. There is a point that even something righteous can become excess or even unrighteous dominion and that is what the Book of Mormon is discussing.

Fiannan
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Fiannan »

How about this....marriage is its own thing, having children is ordained to occur within said marriage and polygamy is a charity or power trip.
Nope, biologically and culturally marriage is for children, and providing security for those children. Of course there is a sharing of souls during intimacy that involves esoteric power. This is why sexuality and spirituality are connected, and are probably necessary for the highest levels of spiritual growth. However, to say that polygamy is charity or power is not correct at all, unless we do believe people who say that it was to help widows and nothing more. A man who had a brother who died without producing children was required to marry his dead brother's wife and create babies with her. Reproduction was revered and sacred in the Bible. It wasn't until the Pagan church in Rome divorced that concept from Christianity - infusing the evil notion that celibacy was superior to marriage and family. Women desire to reach the highest callings of their existence - that is the desire to have children, unless they have been brainwashed contrary to their instincts. And life finds a way. Polygamy allows for a woman to grow spiritually as well as be blessed with children. And if spiritual growth takes place in a marriage between two people who is to say that these energies are not shared in a polygamist setting when each person is blessed with different gifts?

Gage
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Gage »

I bet your wife's answer that she got was that polygamy is not needed.

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Arenera
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Arenera »

djinwa wrote: August 9th, 2017, 11:15 pm I don't come here regularly. Was just browsing the thread on sealings and reading the debate on polygamy.

In 1997, I had the same question - is polygamy required for exaltation?

Different members and leaders had different opinions. It made no sense for me to determine for myself what the requirements were for heaven. That is like a player making the rules to the game as you go along.

I determined that I would have to appeal to those with a direct line to God. So I called church headquarters and asked if polygamy was required for exaltation.

I was passed around and finally a guy told me the church has no position on the matter and I was to pray and find out for myself.

So......back to square one - a player deciding the rules of the game. How does that work? What if all the players make different rules?

My wife got different answers to prayer than I did, so now what?

We tell investigators we get special revelation through our prophets, yet they let us argue endlessly over basic doctrine.

So just know that you can argue forever, and have whatever opinions or answers to prayer you want, but IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!

You can't decide the rules.

And you also can't get the prophet to decide the rules.

So you probably don't want to invest much time or money in the deal if you don't know where you are headed.
No need to pray about polygamy since it is off today. You can pray about whether God ordained polygamy with Joseph Smith and the leaders at that time.

If you believe polygamy will be coming back, you can prepare for it by eating a whole-food plant-based diet and being in good health. The female health is important for gestating the new child, while the male's health is important for having multiple wives.

Fiannan
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Fiannan »

If you believe polygamy will be coming back, you can prepare for it by eating a whole-food plant-based diet and being in good health. The female health is important for gestating the new child, while the male's health is important for having multiple wives.
In regards to men the factors that lead to naturally increased testosterone, and thus more fertility, are if he is in shape, feels confident and like a winner, has or thinks about sex and avoids alcohol and cigarettes. I do not think being a vegan (especially with all that soy) is positive for increasing testosterone.

Women can increase fertility much the same way. Today obesity and delaying pregnancy is hurting women's ability to have children.

MMbelieve
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by MMbelieve »

Fiannan wrote: August 10th, 2017, 12:52 pm
How about this....marriage is its own thing, having children is ordained to occur within said marriage and polygamy is a charity or power trip.
Nope, biologically and culturally marriage is for children, and providing security for those children. Of course there is a sharing of souls during intimacy that involves esoteric power. This is why sexuality and spirituality are connected, and are probably necessary for the highest levels of spiritual growth. However, to say that polygamy is charity or power is not correct at all, unless we do believe people who say that it was to help widows and nothing more. A man who had a brother who died without producing children was required to marry his dead brother's wife and create babies with her. Reproduction was revered and sacred in the Bible. It wasn't until the Pagan church in Rome divorced that concept from Christianity - infusing the evil notion that celibacy was superior to marriage and family. Women desire to reach the highest callings of their existence - that is the desire to have children, unless they have been brainwashed contrary to their instincts. And life finds a way. Polygamy allows for a woman to grow spiritually as well as be blessed with children. And if spiritual growth takes place in a marriage between two people who is to say that these energies are not shared in a polygamist setting when each person is blessed with different gifts?
Taking away all circumstances that are not ideal, monogamy is the best form of marriage and reproduction.

I believe that patriarchy and matriarchy are equal (not exactly same) in practice. It is probably why the second wives or concubines were just that...second wives and concubines. Likely subservient to THE wife. We cannot and should not ask women to give up their matriarchy just like we wouldnt ask men to give up their patriarchy. Women are wired much like men and there is a ranking or status system. Only one woman can run a house. And there is no sharing that top position, that's just naive to think it's possible.

Polygamy is not ideal and should only be used if situations warrant it's temporary practice. Which I also believe that means if there is one man to 10 women and the situation requires they all share him then when the situation is no longer there, they do not belong to him they are free to go if they chose. It served it's purpose for the earthly situation. I do not believe in a man gathering up wives unto himself.

And right now, there is no shortage of men so women can desire and fulfill their calling of having children if they would just be more proactive.

Having children doesn't require an alpha male or a rich man or a handsome man, it just requires a man. There are plenty of men around. Perhaps polygamy is selfish on both the male and female side. I know women who didn't marry because they were too picky and didn't seem to like a guy for whatever reason. That's not a situation to warrant polygamy and she has no right to any woman's husband because she thinks he is best mating quality. That's selfish. And yes, wanting your child to have the best is biological and also selfish. Do we not buy our children decent things without the need to be sure they always have the best? I believe the same principal applies to chosing who their father will be - he just needs to be decent.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Col. Flagg »

davedan wrote: August 10th, 2017, 12:36 am polygamy (like adoption) is an ancient welfare system meant to care for the fatherless and widow.
I've always heard this as an excuse supposedly justifying why it was practiced/instituted, but if there were some women in my ward or neighborhood who needed support or help with children, I don't need to marry them in order to help them - the excuse doesn't hold any water and is very weak. Polygamy is an abomination and was created as an excuse for men with no regard for chastity or the dignity, emotions and feelings of women and to satisfy their own carnal desires. X(

MMbelieve
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by MMbelieve »

Fiannan wrote: August 10th, 2017, 1:20 pm
If you believe polygamy will be coming back, you can prepare for it by eating a whole-food plant-based diet and being in good health. The female health is important for gestating the new child, while the male's health is important for having multiple wives.
In regards to men the factors that lead to naturally increased testosterone, and thus more fertility, are if he is in shape, feels confident and like a winner, has or thinks about sex and avoids alcohol and cigarettes. I do not think being a vegan (especially with all that soy) is positive for increasing testosterone.

Women can increase fertility much the same way. Today obesity and delaying pregnancy is hurting women's ability to have children.
Our environment is hurting our fertility and also harming our bodies. The society and culture is such that things are all messed up, it's too stressful, too complicated, too manufactured.
The quick fix society (which just might include sperm donations and abortions) is crippling us as well as the disposable society we live in.
Having the man committed to a 9 to 5 for 50 years is also a bad thing. We do not have ideal circumstances because the world is all messed up, which we should realize is part of the last days.

I do agree that regardless of the reason, getting in shape and being healthy is always the way to go! We only have one body and we are required to take good care of it.

Fiannan
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Fiannan »

Having children doesn't require an alpha male or a rich man or a handsome man, it just requires a man. There are plenty of men around.
That is not a good idea in regards to genetic health of a society. We would not want to breed livestock that is weak so why promote it within our own species? Many males are defective in health or mental capabilities. They should not reproduce. Of course some couples where the man has a genetic disorder will opt to go to a fertility clinic and get a healthy donor. That is a good idea. He still gets to be a father, just not biologically.

Of course many men are opting out of marriage and that will mushroom once sex robots get really advanced (i.e. Westworld quality). Then what?

Fiannan
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Fiannan »

Col. Flagg wrote: August 10th, 2017, 1:27 pm
davedan wrote: August 10th, 2017, 12:36 am polygamy (like adoption) is an ancient welfare system meant to care for the fatherless and widow.
I've always heard this as an excuse supposedly justifying why it was practiced/instituted, but if there were some women in my ward or neighborhood who needed support or help with children, I don't need to marry them in order to help them - the excuse doesn't hold any water and is very weak. Polygamy is an abomination and was created as an excuse for men with no regard for chastity or the dignity, emotions and feelings of women and to satisfy their own carnal desires. X(
So do you believe women are capable of choosing to live in polygamy? Do you think there are women who would prefer polygamy? Do you believe that if polygamy came back in the LDS Church that there would be wives who would pressure their husbands to take, for example, their single best friends into the marriage relationship?

MMbelieve
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by MMbelieve »

Col. Flagg wrote: August 10th, 2017, 1:27 pm
davedan wrote: August 10th, 2017, 12:36 am polygamy (like adoption) is an ancient welfare system meant to care for the fatherless and widow.
I've always heard this as an excuse supposedly justifying why it was practiced/instituted, but if there were some women in my ward or neighborhood who needed support or help with children, I don't need to marry them in order to help them - the excuse doesn't hold any water and is very weak. Polygamy is an abomination and was created as an excuse for men with no regard for chastity or the dignity, emotions and feelings of women and to satisfy their own carnal desires. X(

I have always had a problem with this reason as well. It holds no water and emeans a woman by requiring sexual relations in order for support.

I hope that marriage has more meaning than an exchange of goods.

Fiannan
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Fiannan »

Check the website of any fertility clinic. I doubt if any have donors who qualify just because they are men. Women using these services want the best donors so their kids can have extra advantages in life.

Fiannan
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by Fiannan »

Is it not true that the more resources a man has to offer, be they financial, strength or intelligence (cleverness) the more likely he will marry a very attractive woman? And just to illustrate this on this on the female side how many LDS young women, if they had to choose between a man just off his mission and facing four or more years of higher education, and a man who was not LDS but whose father was CEO of a successful business and was planning on his son being made a VP that year, would choose the latter because his earning potential was incredible?

MMbelieve
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by MMbelieve »

Fiannan wrote: August 10th, 2017, 1:30 pm
Having children doesn't require an alpha male or a rich man or a handsome man, it just requires a man. There are plenty of men around.
That is not a good idea in regards to genetic health of a society. We would not want to breed livestock that is weak so why promote it within our own species? Many males are defective in health or mental capabilities. They should not reproduce. Of course some couples where the man has a genetic disorder will opt to go to a fertility clinic and get a healthy donor. That is a good idea. He still gets to be a father, just not biologically.

Of course many men are opting out of marriage and that will mushroom once sex robots get really advanced (i.e. Westworld quality). Then what?
Why are the men the only ones scrutinized? Men cant and men shouldn't...what of women? We will eventually breed out bad qualities? So purposefully have generations of children you refuse the right to procreate?

If you limit men then you MUST limit women too. No point in having half way superior children then they mate and it's a 50/50 if there is improvement.

Just pick your best males and your best females and restart a utopian world where there are no fat people and no sad people. No disease and no autism, no retardation or anything else. Sounds like zion, not earth.

MMbelieve
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by MMbelieve »

I cannot answer your question about the young women in church. But if I asked them about 2 hypothetical men and their "earning potentials" I may get sideways looks.

Your right, it's the ugly women who are married to the average guys. My bad. Funny thing is every guy wants a pretty girl so they are kind of delusional aren't they?

Since the only desired woman is poster worthy and the only desired man is the top guy of all guys, I feel bad for nearly the entire human population.

Guess most people just settle and really aren't happy with their spouse or themselves. So sad

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bbsion
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Re: Why debate polygamy?

Post by bbsion »

I understand the OP's frustration with debating the topic. This is a sensitive topic in the church. There seems to be differing views of polygamy from just about every single person I have ever heard express an opinion on the matter. It's also taboo to even mention the word in church. The moment you say the word everyone shies away from it and blushes a little. Either that or the subject is quickly changed. So if one is curious and desires answers where do they go?

What I found to be the most common denominator with the belief of an individual on Polygamy is the individuals personal preference. Most people believe the way they do in order to justify the way they want to live. That's applicable to every religion and philosophy. But with polygamy, the view is rarely objective and sound. It's a principle that will never be accepted and live properly by the masses. Most will never understand it fully. So when you enter into a debate with several individuals in your life that all have a different backgrounds, style of living, opinions, personalities, level of understanding, etc.... and you yourself know little of the topic... all you will get is mass confusion. The discussion will become counter-productive.

Some people provide their answer on the topic with bold ignorance. Just because you are so decisive on the topic and you believe you received an answer, it does not mean that answer applies to everyone. Not everyone is meant to live polygamy. Just as polygamy was not taken away from everyone.

Just remember, if you express your opinion with anger and hate, then your opinion is immediately tainted. I give props to the person, whether they are for or against polygamy, that can at least discuss their point of view with a level head.

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