GA Excommunicated

[skmo]

My comments were not directed at the prophet, his counsellors, and 12 apostles, my comments were directed at the Public Affairs department of the church and the rather indelicate manner in which all of this was transmitted to the public. The prophet, his counsellors, and 12 apostles did what they felt needed to be done under the circumstances and I sustain them in that. I have not however been asked to sustain the church employees of the Public Affairs department whose actions are open to commentary.

Fair comment, I appreciate this explanation.

[skmo]

Furthermore, it isn't even about the "decision," as they state. What they are sharing is something other than the "decision of a disciplinary council," which they explicitly state they don't share. The decision is that he was excommunicated. The reasons or lack thereof, in this case, breached their solemn responsibility to keep confidential, etc, etc.

I'd like to offer one possible explanation. Whatever the reason was, the brother in question, as well as the disciplinary counsel, may have had concern about his excommunication possibly leading others to form the idea it had something to do with apostasy. They may be aware of things we don't know that could spark controversy or lead to gossip that might be harmful to those he previously had stewardship over. It's possible he requested that clarification be made that it was not apostasy, or it could have been requested that he give permission to have that point shared.

[skmo]

It bothers me very much that crimes committed by LDS are swept under the rug by members because of some misguided self righteous belief that forgiveness means someone is not held RESPONSIBLE for what they do...example: child abuses.

Are you aware of any of these things being done today? If so, you need to report it immediately to both your bishop and to the police. I recall a few examples of this being reported twenty years or so ago, shortly after the Catholic Church started to implode over it. I remember being told by a relative of mine who was a bishop that they were being told that any, ANY incidents which involved sexual sin involving anyone under age with an adult needed to be reported not only to the Stake President who would follow up, but to the police as well. He said the instructions on that were adamant and that they were informed that if they were found to be in violation of that, the church would be sure to enlist law enforcement to investigate.

If your uncle sexually abused your daughter, would you break the law and NOT report it?

As a teacher, I attempted to kill a man I witnessed abusing his daughter. He's alive because he ran faster than I do, and I left the village shortly thereafter. I discussed the situation with the mayor (there is no law enforcement in many small villages) so she would know. I also filed a report with child state services (which I'm sure went into a file with the many others they got that day and didn't have the manpower to investigate.)

Members are really misguided when it comes to things like this.

Members who still live in 1970 are. I don't see any of them in any of my wards. Truly, if you know of these things currently happening, call 911. It gets taken seriously. I know, because I did teach here for one year, and I made a few calls to DCFS. I had an officer in my office before the end of the day.

[skmo]

If you want a case study I can hook you up with one very unfortunate situation. Sentenced to jail for likely life because of being convicted in his 70s. Will it change him? Don't know.

One of my jobs in Alaska I got because the teacher there before me got proof of a 64 year old man sexually molesting his granddaughter from the ages of 11-14. Four years worth. She gave it to the officers (she emailed it to AK State Troopers, no police in that village) and was told later by the school board that she'd put her nose in where it didn't belong. Since she didn't have tenure, she was gone at the end of the year.

By the way, she actually did have enough to convict the man. He was found guilty, and managed to serve four whole months in jail for four years of underage rape. Trust me, I've seen the horrible side of these things. I've heard members gossiping about how it's a problem, but when I've asked about it, it turns out it was something that happened about the time I was born, and I'm an old man.

[skmo]

No argument here sweetheart.

So now I am your sweetheart? This is news to me. Only my wife calls me that. I guess I should accept it as a compliment, huh?

Absolutely, sweetheart.
(If that doesn't give you the willies coming from an old, excommunicated man, you need to get your willies detector realigned.) ;-D

[freedomforall]

It's all based off your interpretation of scripture, but it's not scripture based per se. I think saying that people can't repent after mortality is akin to saying babies who aren't baptized go to hell. It's simply not true. We are judged at death, true, but it's not a final judgement. Section 138 makes this clear. The righteous spirits teach the unrighteous spirits and help them repent. Once they repent and become righteous, they then bring forth fruits of repentance, possibly meaning in part that they then teach the unrighteous. The atonement is eternal. It doesn't lose its power at the end of mortality.

Fair enough. What is your interpretation of these same exact scriptures. People all the time tell me it's my interpretation as though I am as dumb as a bag of rocks. Yet I find a good share of the time they haven't even read the scriptures, let alone enough times to really grasp their meaning. So go ahead, enlighten me, please. Also tell me what Alma chaps. 40-42 mean. While your at it, tell me what D&C 76 means with regards to the telestial kingdom. Let's see what a real scholar knows.

I'm sure that after Jesus quoted scripture to many people, they turned on him and said "that's your interpretation, so we can't accept it as truth." Sound familiar?

[MMbelieve]

If you want a case study I can hook you up with one very unfortunate situation. Sentenced to jail for likely life because of being convicted in his 70s. Will it change him? Don't know.

One of my jobs in Alaska I got because the teacher there before me got proof of a 64 year old man sexually molesting his granddaughter from the ages of 11-14. Four years worth. She gave it to the officers (she emailed it to AK State Troopers, no police in that village) and was told later by the school board that she'd put her nose in where it didn't belong. Since she didn't have tenure, she was gone at the end of the year.

By the way, she actually did have enough to convict the man. He was found guilty, and managed to serve four whole months in jail for four years of underage rape. Trust me, I've seen the horrible side of these things. I've heard members gossiping about how it's a problem, but when I've asked about it, it turns out it was something that happened about the time I was born, and I'm an old man.

The statute of limitations is a problem. By the time these children get up courage or have to in some way reveal the abuses they faced, the law is not on their side in many places.

For the man I referenced who was convicted in his 70s, he was arrested only because one of his victims was still a minor. Other victims in the case could support and send letters or evidences but everything pertaining to other victims could not be used to increase or further his sentence.

He ended up with 15 to life after taking a plea deal which took his 1st degree down to 2nd degree. But he will likely die in prison. The judge gave the max sentence as far as I know and said he deserved more but 15 would be sufficient for an old man.

This situation was handled pretty good and serious enough except for his ward family he had groomed enough that they victim shamed and sent letters to the victims asking to forgive and have mercy and don't send him to prison etc. He was arrested and in the care of law enforcement yet these members believed that asking the victim to forgive could actually keep him out of prison.

That's the mindset I hate...that just because someone forgives, the guy or gal believes they are actually fogiven by god and don't have to go through any pain of the consequences. That forgiveness keeps the guy out of having to go to prison. Or if a person is in jail it's the victims fault and it's because the victim didn't forgive. Some idiots believe like this and I think it's common enough within this church.

[skmo]

Do you really believe that breaking Elder James Hamula's right to confidentiality and telling everyone that he didn't become disillusioned by apostacy is really helpful to him & his family rather than the church?

We have no idea what this brother's wishes were. I find it entirely likely he wanted it pointed out the excommunication was not for apostasy so that members for which he formerly had stewardship would know he did not leave because he no longer had a testimony in the church and its leaders. I believe I would want that pointed out were I in his place, so as to not cause others to fall into apostasy from what happened to him.

And while we're at it, considering this is the church of Jesus Christ, when did Jesus ex-communicate anyone?

None that we know of, but we don't know for sure and more to the point, He is not on the earth at this time, is He? He has, however, given us directions about how to proceed to help people find penitence they may need along their path, people such as me at this time. With all the difficulties I face because of my excommunication, I know it was the correct decision and I am grateful for the opportunity to walk my life back to full membership along the path given me by the High Council Court. My re-entry into the waters of baptism, when it comes, will be a sweet and blessed thing to experience. Others I know who have been excommunicated were so ashamed and embarrassed that they were mortified about people finding out about their excommunication. I was supportive and non-judgmental, and I never spread any information about it (and I rebuked people who talked about it behind my friend's back) and so I am supportive toward whatever actions this brother takes. I wish him the best.

I, however, have never been reticent to discuss my failures. I believe it comes from my desire to be teacher. I hope my experiences can help others avoid the mistakes I fell into.

[skmo]

That forgiveness keeps the guy out of having to go to prison.

I don't believe that forgiveness should keep a person from prison, but I'm not in support of sending those who molest underage children to prison, either. My judgment would be much swifter, and much more final. As expressed in my former comment, I'm quite willing to deliver said judgement personally. Hurt my children (all of my students have been under my stewardship) and I will bring justice down on you if I am able.

[freedomforall]

No argument here sweetheart.

So now I am your sweetheart? This is news to me. Only my wife calls me that. I guess I should accept it as a compliment, huh?

Absolutely, sweetheart.
(If that doesn't give you the willies coming from an old, excommunicated man, you need to get your willies detector realigned.) ;-D

Now days, the term sweetheart can apply to anyone. This gives me the willies. So maybe they are aligned, huh? I've been on this forum for seven years and never been called sweetheart until now. At age 70, it's hard for this old man to take; my heart flutters enough as it is due to diastolic heart failure. I know it sounds bad, but is much better than systolic heart failure. Unlike the Tinman, I do have a heart.

[MMbelieve]

It bothers me very much that crimes committed by LDS are swept under the rug by members because of some misguided self righteous belief that forgiveness means someone is not held RESPONSIBLE for what they do...example: child abuses.

Are you aware of any of these things being done today? If so, you need to report it immediately to both your bishop and to the police. I recall a few examples of this being reported twenty years or so ago, shortly after the Catholic Church started to implode over it. I remember being told by a relative of mine who was a bishop that they were being told that any, ANY incidents which involved sexual sin involving anyone under age with an adult needed to be reported not only to the Stake President who would follow up, but to the police as well. He said the instructions on that were adamant and that they were informed that if they were found to be in violation of that, the church would be sure to enlist law enforcement to investigate.

If your uncle sexually abused your daughter, would you break the law and NOT report it?

As a teacher, I attempted to kill a man I witnessed abusing his daughter. He's alive because he ran faster than I do, and I left the village shortly thereafter. I discussed the situation with the mayor (there is no law enforcement in many small villages) so she would know. I also filed a report with child state services (which I'm sure went into a file with the many others they got that day and didn't have the manpower to investigate.)

Members are really misguided when it comes to things like this.

Members who still live in 1970 are. I don't see any of them in any of my wards. Truly, if you know of these things currently happening, call 911. It gets taken seriously. I know, because I did teach here for one year, and I made a few calls to DCFS. I had an officer in my office before the end of the day.

I am not aware of any active cases or previously active cases wherd the victim is still a minor. The situation I'm referring to ended with prison sentence 5 years and a 3 year trial before hand.

[MMbelieve]

No argument here sweetheart.

So now I am your sweetheart? This is news to me. Only my wife calls me that. I guess I should accept it as a compliment, huh?

Absolutely, sweetheart.
(If that doesn't give you the willies coming from an old, excommunicated man, you need to get your willies detector realigned.) ;-D

Now days, the term sweetheart can apply to anyone. This gives me the willies. So maybe they are aligned, huh? I've been on this forum for seven years and never been called sweetheart until now. At age 70, it's hard for this old man to take; my heart flutters enough as it is due to diastolic heart failure. I know it sounds bad, but is much better than systolic heart failure. Unlike the Tinman, I do have a heart.

Haha, no weird meaning here. I seriously thought you were a female and it was a compassionate use of the word, not loving or romantic or sarcastic.

But knowing your an old man, I feel weird about it now- lol.

I hope all is settled and well now. I will refrain from addressing you as sweetheart in the future.

[skmo]

Excommunication is an act of kindness it removes the person from responsibility and burden of church membership and allows them time to repent. It is also the reputation of the Church. The purpose of the LDS church is not to simply make men better but prepare persons for the celestial kingdom. People totally misunderstand the purpose of the church. The church has high standards and if they are not kept out you go - there is no compromise

Many people do not understand this. I know I have mentioned this many times, but I want to add my testimony to your point.

I am currently excommunicated. My excommunication was an act of kindness and love from the Stake President and God to me. It allows me the opportunity to walk back into the waters of baptism knowing I have been fully cleansed of the horrible acts which I committed* before I return again to the Temple of The Lord, so that I may know I have fulfilled my covenants with God and my Priesthood Covenants.

* I've discussed all of my sins on these boards in other places, I've no need to take up space with that here, but I'm not opposed to sharing whenever necessary to help others understand my awful situation and how they may avoid it.

[freedomforall]

That forgiveness keeps the guy out of having to go to prison.

I don't believe that forgiveness should keep a person from prison, but I'm not in support of sending those who molest underage children to prison, either. My judgment would be much swifter, and much more final. As expressed in my former comment, I'm quite willing to deliver said judgement personally. Hurt my children (all of my students have been under my stewardship) and I will bring justice down on you if I am able.

Then there is God's justice for vengeance and murder. Fire and brimstone is far worse than can be imagined. Pain, anguish, remorse, guilt, shame and unrelenting torment, all so intense, 24/7, that you'd wish to be banished forever into outer space...alone. And the guy you exacted vengeance on would laugh in your face, and you could do nothing about it but take it.
I'd much rather let God handle the situation than be worse off because of bad choices.

[skmo]

So why are people chucked out of the church prior to their repentance? Did Elder Hamula refuse to repent?

I cannot speak to his case, but I can assure you it would have been nigh impossible for me to go through all the steps of repentance during the HCC I had. I am not opposed to the idea that a full and penitent repentance can occur in a short time, but I know it would not have been possible for me. The depth and gravity of my adultery with so many people over a period of years was beyond my ability to process, let alone fully repent of. I was full of godly sorrow. I was ashamed of my actions and regret for the pain I'd caused along the way. It did not change the fact that I was unable to feel and believe I could have found repentance for myself in that room sitting around that table.

Sometimes these things take time.

I had a friend who was excommunicated long ago. He went into the HCC full of pride and ambition. He longed for high office in the church, I knew one of his goals in life was to be in a higher office of the church than his father, who was at one time a Stake President. He went in and basically told them "I committed fornication but I'm sorry for what I've done and I deserve to be forgiven and returned to full fellowship." It did not end well. His excommunication embittered him for many years to come.

[skmo]

Then there is God's justice for vengeance and murder.

It's not clear from my fiery rhetoric, but I was wishing for capital punishment for forcible statutory rape. Our law of the law allows for that:

nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

So you can't try a man twice for the same crime, but if you use due process you can deprive him of his life if it's warranted.

In the case I mentioned, I was attempting to defend a student from an attack by her father I witnessed with my own eyes. Had I reached him, he would have paid with his life, and the mayor assured me I would have gotten a thank you letter from her and a note to the AK State Troopers from her testifying that I was acting in defense of a child, not that it would have been needed. Laws in the bush tend to get a little wonky.

[skmo]

Unless the right attitude about excommunication is possessed then it is looked upon as a punishment - it is not such. It may be a consequence but never a punishment.

It certainly is not a punishment. It provides difficulties, but they are not punishments, just opportunities for growth.

[skmo]

So let's consider this. A person gets cast out for an indefinite period of time...it is for their own good...it helps them to repent...it is a part of their repentance...it makes them new afresh......AND in the meantime, they die three weeks after their exing. Whoops, there went their whole idea of coming back. Now they go to hell for the sin they committed and end up in the telestial kingdom and are stuck there according to D&C 76. So much for repentance, right?

Nope. I discussed this with a bishop of mine. It seemed prudent, seeing as how I'm old, fat, and generally short on common sense that says "You're too old and fat to do something that foolhardy." Actually, my wife wonders how I made it to the age I have. We've discussed how many guardian angels I must have worn out by now. I sometimes wonder if there's a whole section of spirit paradise where my guardian angels go to get rest and reinvigoration from looking after me. I ought to be more wise than I am.

Anyway. he said if I died while excommunicated, my wife could have my temple work done a year after my death. As for what happens after that I would need to discuss with my Judge in Israel on the other side, but I have faith God will provide what I need as long as I avail myself of the process of repentance as they're provided to me.

[freedomforall]

Then there is God's justice for vengeance and murder.

It's not clear from my fiery rhetoric, but I was wishing for capital punishment for forcible statutory rape. Our law of the law allows for that:

nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

So you can't try a man twice for the same crime, but if you use due process you can deprive him of his life if it's warranted.

In the case I mentioned, I was attempting to defend a student from an attack by her father I witnessed with my own eyes. Had I reached him, he would have paid with his life, and the mayor assured me I would have gotten a thank you letter from her and a note to the AK State Troopers from her testifying that I was acting in defense of a child, not that it would have been needed. Laws in the bush tend to get a little wonky.

Gotcha, that's different for sure. Thanks for the clarity.

[freedomforall]

So let's consider this. A person gets cast out for an indefinite period of time...it is for their own good...it helps them to repent...it is a part of their repentance...it makes them new afresh......AND in the meantime, they die three weeks after their exing. Whoops, there went their whole idea of coming back. Now they go to hell for the sin they committed and end up in the telestial kingdom and are stuck there according to D&C 76. So much for repentance, right?

Nope. I discussed this with a bishop of mine. It seemed prudent, seeing as how I'm old, fat, and generally short on common sense that says "You're too old and fat to do something that foolhardy." Actually, my wife wonders how I made it to the age I have. We've discussed how many guardian angels I must have worn out by now. I sometimes wonder if there's a whole section of spirit paradise where my guardian angels go to get rest and reinvigoration from looking after me. I ought to be more wise than I am.

Anyway. he said if I died while excommunicated, my wife could have my temple work done a year after my death. As for what happens after that I would need to discuss with my Judge in Israel on the other side, but I have faith God will provide what I need as long as I avail myself of the process of repentance as they're provided to me.

Well, now I know. Experience says a lot. And getting information straight from the horse's mouth, if you will, does help the understanding department. Thanks.

[skmo]

if a person is exed and doesn't decide to repent for six months to a year, hypothetically, and they die before beginning then there can be no repentance (labor) according to the scriptures above.

The scriptures talk about knowing the truth and refusing to follow it out of a desire to continue doing evil. Were I to still be sleeping around and saying "I'll put off a HCC until I'm done with strange hot women" then I believe I would likely, rightfully be denied the opportunity to fully repent. However, I'm taking the steps I need. I've been acknowledged by my Judge in Israel that I am working on my repentance process, and if I doe before I complete this path, I believe as long as I remain on it faithfully I will be given the opportunity to have my work done to receive a remission of sins, as long as I continue to follow the gospel.

[skmo]

He dragged himself through mud and a truly repentant person will accept that and confess and bare testimony of the sin and not worry about what other think. Repentance is not forced on a person - they have to come to that by themselves in order to move forward.

I am quite ashamed of what I did to get excommunicated, thoroughly horrible things which are terribly at odds with the covenants I made. That said, I've discussed them at length on these boards and would do so with anyone who wishes because I wish my suffering to be an opportunity to shed light on the terrible path of suffering which awaits those who choose sin. I have lived my life as a teacher, and I will gladly sacrifice my pride and my comfort if others can be spared the horrors I brought on myself by teaching them the value of the gospel covenants.

Truly, they are blessings, not curses. They give freedom, not constraint.

[skmo]

Unnatural deaths ... from murder, accidents, war, disease etc take the person from the earth before their time.

Not if God does not wish it to be so. If He allows it, He will also provide the means for all to have the opportunities they need for exaltation.

[skmo]

Out of curiosity, I just counted: 25 posts I've made (this makes 26) in little more than one page.

One would think this was a subject near and dear to me. In fact, it is. I don't want others to make the mistakes I have.

[Spaced_Out]

if a person is exed and doesn't decide to repent for six months to a year, hypothetically, and they die before beginning then there can be no repentance (labor) according to the scriptures above.

God is in control and a righteous person is never taken form the earth before his/her time.

Unnatural deaths ... from murder, accidents, war, disease etc take the person from the earth before their time.

I disagree with that, the end is known before a person is sent to the earth.
Also freedomforall has conveniently forgotten about baptism for the dead. Just because a person dies does not mean they no longer have access to the ordinances of salvation.