GA Excommunicated

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brlenox
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by brlenox »

freedomforall wrote: August 13th, 2017, 4:37 pm
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 12:22 pmDoctrine and Covenants 42:28

28 Thou knowest my laws concerning these things are given in my scriptures; he that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out.
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 12:22 pmBut, because I realize your online name is thinker, I realize you must have already considered this things and are already aware that excommunication is a viable and recommended option within the Church of Jesus Christ and that it has a strong scriptural support. So then I have to wonder, why would someone take a stance so opposite the obvious and put words in peoples mouths and deflect the conversation into other accusations of tangential claims and I am not sure why someone would do that when it is so easy to illustrate their thinking is not in line with gospel standards.

So you are going to have to explain it to me - you are making this too easy to rebutt and I think you know you are staring down a 1 ton bull knowing that you have no reasonable protection for your claims. So really what is your impetus for these things?
Someone, please, read Doctrine and Covenants 42:28 again. It states that a person is to be excommunicated if they "repent not"...not before and not during any repentance, nor if they sincerely desire to repent.
So why are people chucked out of the church prior to their repentance? Did Elder Hamula refuse to repent?

If they repent not.
I am convinced that what must be understood is that a church court is a profoundly spiritual experience. It is a hard experience and it considers difficult matters but it is the Lord that defines the outcome.

That said sometimes the outcome is that they must be excommunicated in order to be able to fully repent or in other words as part of their repentance. As well, they are then permitted rebaptism which clears the conscience so completely that it is a gracious blessing.

Unless the right attitude about excommunication is possessed then it is looked upon as a punishment - it is not such. It may be a consequence but never a punishment.

freedomforall
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by freedomforall »

brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 4:37 pm
freedomforall wrote: August 12th, 2017, 9:16 pm
AussieOI called me a "tool" once. Nuff said.
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 4:37 pmDid you tell him it takes one to know one.
Frankly I do not remember what I said. But from what I know a bag of rocks don't comprehend much of anything.

brianj
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by brianj »

Thinker wrote: August 13th, 2017, 9:57 am Do you really believe that breaking Elder James Hamula's right to confidentiality and telling everyone that he didn't become disillusioned by apostacy is really helpful to him & his family rather than the church? So, to you, it's better for Elder Hamula & his family for people to wonder about which crime or sin he committed rather than consider the possibility of him being disillusioned?
So many people have alleged that church leadership has violated Brother Hamula's (he's no longer an elder and no longer holds a calling or priesthood office where the title applies) right to confidentiality based on the press release.

Do any of you have any real evidence that Brother Hamula's right to confidentiality was violated? Has anybody provided any shred of evidence that a press release was not discussed with Brother Hamula before it was released? Or that Brother Hamula didn't agree to the content of the press release? Or that Brother Hamula doesn't understand that an explanation needs to be provided when a general authority is excommunicated?

The contempt shown for church leaders through these allegations blows my mind.

freedomforall
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by freedomforall »

brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 4:44 pm
freedomforall wrote: August 13th, 2017, 4:37 pm
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 12:22 pmDoctrine and Covenants 42:28

28 Thou knowest my laws concerning these things are given in my scriptures; he that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out.
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 12:22 pmBut, because I realize your online name is thinker, I realize you must have already considered this things and are already aware that excommunication is a viable and recommended option within the Church of Jesus Christ and that it has a strong scriptural support. So then I have to wonder, why would someone take a stance so opposite the obvious and put words in peoples mouths and deflect the conversation into other accusations of tangential claims and I am not sure why someone would do that when it is so easy to illustrate their thinking is not in line with gospel standards.

So you are going to have to explain it to me - you are making this too easy to rebutt and I think you know you are staring down a 1 ton bull knowing that you have no reasonable protection for your claims. So really what is your impetus for these things?
Someone, please, read Doctrine and Covenants 42:28 again. It states that a person is to be excommunicated if they "repent not"...not before and not during any repentance, nor if they sincerely desire to repent.
So why are people chucked out of the church prior to their repentance? Did Elder Hamula refuse to repent?

If they repent not.
I am convinced that what must be understood is that a church court is a profoundly spiritual experience. It is a hard experience and it considers difficult matters but it is the Lord that defines the outcome.

That said sometimes the outcome is that they must be excommunicated in order to be able to fully repent or in other words as part of their repentance. As well, they are then permitted rebaptism which clears the conscience so completely that it is a gracious blessing.

Unless the right attitude about excommunication is possessed then it is looked upon as a punishment - it is not such. It may be a consequence but never a punishment.
So let's consider this. A person gets cast out for an indefinite period of time...it is for their own good...it helps them to repent...it is a part of their repentance...it makes them new afresh......AND in the meantime, they die three weeks after their exing. Whoops, there went their whole idea of coming back. Now they go to hell for the sin they committed and end up in the telestial kingdom and are stuck there according to D&C 76. So much for repentance, right?

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.


And I still wonder why people are exed before their repentance, clearly against what scripture teaches. It says they are to be cast out if they repenteth not...not before and not during. This means that for those that do not want to repent are then cast out (excommunicated). It doesn't say or corroborate the notion of casting them out as part of their repentance.
Why am I inclined to think this is a philosophy of man mingled with scripture?

The scripture should then say "cast them out, first, no matter what they intend to do." If they come back, fine, if they don't they get what they deserve.

Is this one of those cases where scripture is not to be taken at face value? It must be twisted and distorted and made to say something else in order to justify man's desire to put someone out on the street? They no longer hold the priesthood, no longer have the companionship of the Holy Ghost and no longer feel welcome in church because of all the scoffing and backbiting going on by so many wonderful, reverent, upstanding Mormons that look for whatever dirt they can find to spread around.

freedomforall
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by freedomforall »

Who really gives a rat as to what Elder Hamula did? It's none of our business. Our true job is to love him and give him hope and compassion, Christ-like compassion. And it certainly isn't up to us to make a thread like this so all kinds of imaginary sins and imperfections can be discussed in his behalf. The mere notion of posting this thread is disgusting. I say let Brother Hamula work out his own salvation with Christ and let's keep out of his affairs...other than to love him like Christians.

I'm just wondering if dragging him through mud is going to help him repent? And let's remember that the word repent only means to have a change of heart and mind for the better.

repent:
to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent.

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Elizabeth
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by Elizabeth »

My opinion is this thread should be deleted.

freedomforall
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Re: GA Excommunicated

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And those idiots at KSL have little to no tact. They'll talk about some church guy getting exed, but, please, don't talk about what Harry Reid is doing, or that the Bundy's are being railroaded by the government and a crooked judge, in that the Constitution cannot be brought into her courtroom or the defendants cannot give complete witness as to what they saw at and near the Bundy ranch in 2014. Let alone the Hammond's being back in prison under double jeopardy. Also that Lavoy Finnicum was murdered and he did not have a weapon in his pocket as claimed. Strong evidence proves if there was a weapon it was planted at the scene.
No, let's just focus on the imaginary dirt on a fellow church member recently exed.

I think Elizabeth would concur...this focusing on wayward church members as a hobby, makes some of us :ymsick:

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brlenox
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by brlenox »

freedomforall wrote: August 13th, 2017, 5:21 pm
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 4:44 pm
freedomforall wrote: August 13th, 2017, 4:37 pm
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 12:22 pmDoctrine and Covenants 42:28

28 Thou knowest my laws concerning these things are given in my scriptures; he that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out.
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 12:22 pmBut, because I realize your online name is thinker, I realize you must have already considered this things and are already aware that excommunication is a viable and recommended option within the Church of Jesus Christ and that it has a strong scriptural support. So then I have to wonder, why would someone take a stance so opposite the obvious and put words in peoples mouths and deflect the conversation into other accusations of tangential claims and I am not sure why someone would do that when it is so easy to illustrate their thinking is not in line with gospel standards.

So you are going to have to explain it to me - you are making this too easy to rebutt and I think you know you are staring down a 1 ton bull knowing that you have no reasonable protection for your claims. So really what is your impetus for these things?
Someone, please, read Doctrine and Covenants 42:28 again. It states that a person is to be excommunicated if they "repent not"...not before and not during any repentance, nor if they sincerely desire to repent.
So why are people chucked out of the church prior to their repentance? Did Elder Hamula refuse to repent?

If they repent not.
I am convinced that what must be understood is that a church court is a profoundly spiritual experience. It is a hard experience and it considers difficult matters but it is the Lord that defines the outcome.

That said sometimes the outcome is that they must be excommunicated in order to be able to fully repent or in other words as part of their repentance. As well, they are then permitted rebaptism which clears the conscience so completely that it is a gracious blessing.

Unless the right attitude about excommunication is possessed then it is looked upon as a punishment - it is not such. It may be a consequence but never a punishment.
So let's consider this. A person gets cast out for an indefinite period of time...it is for their own good...it helps them to repent...it is a part of their repentance...it makes them new afresh......AND in the meantime, they die three weeks after their exing. Whoops, there went their whole idea of coming back. Now they go to hell for the sin they committed and end up in the telestial kingdom and are stuck there according to D&C 76. So much for repentance, right?

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.


And I still wonder why people are exed before their repentance, clearly against what scripture teaches. It says they are to be cast out if they repenteth not...not before and not during. This means that for those that do not want to repent are then cast out (excommunicated). It doesn't say or corroborate the notion of casting them out as part of their repentance.
Why am I inclined to think this is a philosophy of man mingled with scripture?

The scripture should then say "cast them out, first, no matter what they intend to do." If they come back, fine, if they don't they get what they deserve.

Is this one of those cases where scripture is not to be taken at face value? It must be twisted and distorted and made to say something else in order to justify man's desire to put someone out on the street? They no longer hold the priesthood, no longer have the companionship of the Holy Ghost and no longer feel welcome in church because of all the scoffing and backbiting going on by so many wonderful, reverent, upstanding Mormons that look for whatever dirt they can find to spread around.
It is interesting to me the extent to which you are working to hold on to this sense of unrighteous interpretation in how the church administers the process of a church court. Your last scenario could certainly happen and I'm sure may from time to time. However, it is no different for them than for us. The path they are on when they leave this life is the path they will remain on hereafter. If they have ceased to be rebellious and are diligently seeking realignment with the gospel of Jesus Christ and are repentant then since He is the constant they will not be left without a means of fulfilling what is required. There is no unfairness with Christ, nor any restrictions on his ability to see that all receive the benefit of his love and sacrifice. One such as this is not dying in their sins. For they are repentant and Christ forgives the repentant. All imbalances will be addressed at least during the millennium if not sooner.

freedomforall
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Re: GA Excommunicated

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brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 6:54 pmIt is interesting to me the extent to which you are working to hold on to this sense of unrighteous interpretation in how the church administers the process of a church court. Your last scenario could certainly happen and I'm sure may from time to time. However, it is no different for them than for us. The path they are on when they leave this life is the path they will remain on hereafter. If they have ceased to be rebellious and are diligently seeking realignment with the gospel of Jesus Christ and are repentant then since He is the constant they will not be left without a means of fulfilling what is required. There is no unfairness with Christ, nor any restrictions on his ability to see that all receive the benefit of his love and sacrifice. One such as this is not dying in their sins. For they are repentant and Christ forgives the repentant. All imbalances will be addressed at least during the millennium if not sooner.
Alma 34
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


So if a person is exed and doesn't decide to repent for six months to a year, hypothetically, and they die before beginning then there can be no repentance (labor) according to the scriptures above.

Or do we just ignore the context of them and use our own imagination?

I guess I have good reason to be concerned and hold onto my thoughts on the matter; it is all scripture based.

larsenb
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by larsenb »

brlenox wrote: August 12th, 2017, 11:33 pm
larsenb wrote: August 12th, 2017, 11:20 pm
brlenox wrote: August 12th, 2017, 8:31 pm
larsenb wrote: August 12th, 2017, 3:53 pm
Brian definitely needs to add 'turd' to his list . . . closely followed by Bristol's, regardless of the ranking. Question I have, is why on earth do you seem to know all about Bristols? I had to look it up. /:)
Well, Mr Larsen, when one seeks perfection they need to consider everything from top to bottom - and a Bristol #4 is one measure of a bottom's perfections...just ask anyone whose pushin 1's and 2's or 6's and 7's.
I'll drink to that, but just make sure you don't make bottoms up.
I'm kinda thinkin that since you did the research if you shouldn't maybe post an image that illustrates the Bristol rating guide. It is very enlightening and something that everyone can relate to.
You're obviously vastly more knowledgeable on the subject than I . . . . and you brought it up in the first place. The honor goes to you.

Spaced_Out
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by Spaced_Out »

freedomforall wrote: August 13th, 2017, 5:38 pm I'm just wondering if dragging him through mud is going to help him repent? And let's remember that the word repent only means to have a change of heart and mind for the better.
repent:
to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent.
This is the crux of the matter you do not understand the process of repentance. It is a long thorny process designed to give the person correct understanding and power to overcome the sin to the point the person no longer has desire to commit the sin.
serious sin like sexual sin can't simply be - I am sorry and wish I did not go it. I have worked with many people through the process it take years to repent properly and work through the issues.

As with your precious post about the person is excommunicated then dies, God is in control and a righteous person is never taken form the earth before his/her time. Dying and going to heaven as a member with unrepentant sins only makes things worse. Every person is given a fair chance and righteous judgement at the the final judgement day. Allowing wickedness in the church will bring condemnation on the leadership of the church. You understanding of the plan of salvation like repentance is very elementary and complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the gospel.

He dragged himself through mud and a truly repentant person will accept that and confess and bare testimony of the sin and not worry about what other think. Repentance is not forced on a person - they have to come to that by themselves in order to move forward. So their sins are kept concealed as was the case with the GA in question...


43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.

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Elizabeth
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by Elizabeth »

Unnatural deaths ... from murder, accidents, war, disease etc take the person from the earth before their time.
Spaced_Out wrote: August 13th, 2017, 8:28 pm
God is in control and a righteous person is never taken form the earth before his/her time.

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brlenox
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by brlenox »

freedomforall wrote: August 13th, 2017, 7:18 pm
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 6:54 pmIt is interesting to me the extent to which you are working to hold on to this sense of unrighteous interpretation in how the church administers the process of a church court. Your last scenario could certainly happen and I'm sure may from time to time. However, it is no different for them than for us. The path they are on when they leave this life is the path they will remain on hereafter. If they have ceased to be rebellious and are diligently seeking realignment with the gospel of Jesus Christ and are repentant then since He is the constant they will not be left without a means of fulfilling what is required. There is no unfairness with Christ, nor any restrictions on his ability to see that all receive the benefit of his love and sacrifice. One such as this is not dying in their sins. For they are repentant and Christ forgives the repentant. All imbalances will be addressed at least during the millennium if not sooner.
Alma 34
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


So if a person is exed and doesn't decide to repent for six months to a year, hypothetically, and they die before beginning then there can be no repentance (labor) according to the scriptures above.

Or do we just ignore the context of them and use our own imagination?

I guess I have good reason to be concerned and hold onto my thoughts on the matter; it is all scripture based.
If you read carefully you will realize the context of my answer addressed this very set of verses. I emphasized how the state of the individual must be repentant and in such cases they will be fairly treated. If the condition is otherwise then I cannot speak to it any more than what the scriptures say. No one is using their imagination nor is there any private interpretation of scripture.

Frankly your tone seems that you don't think that Christ runs this church and you think that men could make mistakes that could bind the Lord from doing the right thing. I do not feel so, nor do I harbor the angst that seems manifest in your responses. You seem to want to do battle and I am simply trying to honestly provide insight to your questions that you have asked.

There is no need to fear the Lord will not do the right thing of that I am sure.

drtanner
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by drtanner »

I read this earlier today from Truman G Madsen's biography. It was a letter he wrote to a friend who had been excommunicated and I couldn't think of a more beautiful way to communicate to someone in a time like this. So many good perspectives to remember and lessons I was reminded of in this letter from Truman:
Truman bared his own soul reaching out to a friend who had been excommunicated: "The years that have passed since the mid 60’s have had me “on the rack”! On the outside I have been comparatively calm. Yet my own spiritual roots have been uncovered and shaken in ways that I could never have foreseen. Many of my worthy expectations and dreams have been shattered or have slowly slipped away, victims of the closing of doors that life enforces just by the lapse of time. But with the anguish there has been a corresponding deepening of assurances. They are what I wish in this letter to pass on to you in an act of brotherly love. For my discernment tells me you have, or may yet have, some soul-wrenching needs. “Give me the benefit of your convictions,” someone has said, “I have doubt enough of my own.” The spirit whispers, I may speak as a friend who in this realm knows what he is talking about. . . .

It is intended, it is foreordained, it is voluntarily arranged that a man, every man, must be wrung through the crucial crucible of experience, especially the bitter. The Adversary has two ways of capitalizing on that bleak human prognosis. One is to convince a man that he is merely a victim, that affliction is due to someone else or to the inevitabilities of fate. The other is to convince him that the bitter and compounding setbacks must not lead him closer to the nature of the living God, but provides instead the sure seal of his worthlessness from which there is no recovery not even through the reach of Christ Himself. . . .

But without any details I can be one witness—I have never felt anything but admiration and compassion for you, whatever your predicaments have been. And I now know [in] the hardest of hard ways that the Lord does not recognize, not ever, a condition of “too far gone.” The doors of perdition, if there are doors, are locked from the inside. It is apparently possible for us to so exercise our ultimate power of autonomy that we can choose to make an everlasting covenant against God. But he does not make a reciprocal one against us. He remains, arms open, with the power to nurture, heal and fulfill. . . .

The Hebrew root, I have learned, of the word “contrite” is the equivalent of shattered, pulverized, broken into bits, separated, disheveled, bruised, battered, and driven as by a wave. Is this the self-awareness the Master asks us to bring to his altar? I thought not. Life, I supposed, was to build strength, or define the point of no return. I know now that there is no ascent without descent. God bless you, my brother, to come naked and open to the nurturing link with Christ. He who locked step with you in pre-mortality and who accepted the whole gamut of your anticipated burdens as you with matching intensity accepted His. He has yet to say to you “In all your afflictions I was afflicted.” Holiness will come through worthy humility in pain. God help you to be delivered into sanctification. For that is His will. And I know it. That is my testimony to you in the name of the Lord. I share it in the bonds of brotherly affection and in the fervent yearning that you not feel utterly alone or involved in a saga of meaninglessness."

Faithfully, Truman

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skmo
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by skmo »

setyourselffree wrote: August 8th, 2017, 1:25 pm This is a tender mercy of the Lord. If you are not following the covenants then it's time to get out from underneath them so no further condemnation comes upon that person.
As one currently excommunicated, please allow me to not only echo this, but bear my testimony of it as well. My excommunication, even with the difficulties is has presented me, is a blessing which allows me to be sure I will be able to finish my repentance with a full rebirth in the waters of baptism. I am entirely confident in the decision received by the Stake President and confirmed by the HC. It is not a punishment. It brings difficulties, but it also affords opportunities.

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skmo
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by skmo »

paid2play wrote: August 9th, 2017, 9:13 am its funny how almost everyone jumps to the conclusion that this man sinned and needs to repent, no one has heard what he did yet most jump to assumptions. (I know i will get ridiculed for say this) but do you think its possible the excommunication was done in error? Not a single person took that into consideration nor i doubt many will. There have been some men of God that has been excommunicated. Maybe we should take our own religious belief into accord here and judge not that ye be not judge. without knowing him(or anyone really) should we not give them the benefit of the doubt? just my 2¢
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but this sounds very much like an attempt to sow discord in a very subtle manner. Since I am not involved in this situation, I am not responsible for making a decision about it or judging something about which I know nothing. It is likely pride and a desire to gossip which drives people to speculate about these things. Other than that, the only other drive to learn all about this is to spread bad feelings about the church or fight against God.

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skmo
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by skmo »

MMbelieve wrote: August 9th, 2017, 12:47 pm ...Only because I hate it when the church (members) keeps these sins under wraps and expects people to not press charges and just forgive.
So you're opposed to forgiving? If that's the case, I'm not going to judge you for it, because I'm harboring some severe grudges and hate myself, but I'm aware of it and I'm hoping I can change it someday. Unless the situation directly affects you, your involvement is not necessary.

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skmo
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by skmo »

marc wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:40 pm
kittycat51 wrote: August 9th, 2017, 12:59 pm
marc wrote: August 9th, 2017, 11:52 am "...carried out in complete confidence..."

We don't share why this happened because privacy...but let us tell you why it didn't happen, because that's ok.
You realize this is a no win situation. Had the Church not said anything it would have leaked out someway or another. (cough Mormon Wiki Leaks, social media via "gossip" etc) Don't you think people would question why he all of a sudden was not performing his calling as a 70? So they are danged if they say something and danged if they didn't. There would always be those who say the Church is "hiding" things had they not. It's sad regardless of the reasons why, and I hold NO judgement. I only hope for Brother Hamula's best interest at heart. May he be in the process of working his way back to the fold in full membership.
:|
...complete confidence...
Which you demonstrate you have twice a year when you sustain the prophet and other church officers. If you have concerns, you have a church leadership to share them with.

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skmo
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by skmo »

gkearney wrote: August 9th, 2017, 4:07 pm So how might this have been handled? A couple of things come to mind. They could have just released him and let the local Stake President deal with the matter. He could have been excommunicated and the new release simple state that he had been released from his calling for personal reasons and never mentioned the excommunication at all, it really isn't a public issue anyway.
They handled it in the way they thought best. If you have better ideas, perhaps you could ask God to have President Monson give you the calling for the public affairs office of the church.

:edited to add

I edited to this mention that I added a post on the next page regarding this poster in a later comment. I withdraw my sarcastic response.

The man involved was a General Authority of the church. If it was handled discreetly and with no public statement, people would work to jump on it as the LDS trying to hide things like the Catholic Church did.
Last edited by skmo on August 13th, 2017, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MMbelieve
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by MMbelieve »

skmo wrote: August 13th, 2017, 10:24 pm
MMbelieve wrote: August 9th, 2017, 12:47 pm ...Only because I hate it when the church (members) keeps these sins under wraps and expects people to not press charges and just forgive.
So you're opposed to forgiving? If that's the case, I'm not going to judge you for it, because I'm harboring some severe grudges and hate myself, but I'm aware of it and I'm hoping I can change it someday. Unless the situation directly affects you, your involvement is not necessary.
Not sure why someone who breaks the law and is held accountable for his actions has any single thing to do with his forgiveness on the matter. There are dues to pay regardless if one is forgiven or not.

And no, I'm not opposed to forgiveness. And I certainly do not believe a person who abuses the weak and vulnerable should go free and spared the law. That is not right. It's not a matter of forgiveness. My forgiveness and the law are two unrelated things. My forgiveness won't matter a thing as the guy is standing in front of the judge to receive his sentence. Therefore, my forgiveness is unrelated to one being accountable and repentant of their crime/sin.

I believe this idea of hush hush over sins that are against the law and require one to account to the law does affect all of us. So ya, I will get involved to the degree I am here, by talking about it and voicing my concern. This is a real problem in the church and it causes damages and heartache to victims and families.

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skmo
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Re: GA Excommunicated

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Finrock wrote: August 10th, 2017, 3:02 pmYeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock
I love sarcasm. Truly, I do (just read some of my posts to see that.) However, this is so weak it doesn't even look like sarcasm, but rather more like bitter tears still being shed over something unresolved.

MMbelieve
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by MMbelieve »

skmo wrote: August 13th, 2017, 10:48 pm
gkearney wrote: August 9th, 2017, 4:07 pm So how might this have been handled? A couple of things come to mind. They could have just released him and let the local Stake President deal with the matter. He could have been excommunicated and the new release simple state that he had been released from his calling for personal reasons and never mentioned the excommunication at all, it really isn't a public issue anyway.
They handled it in the way they thought best. If you have better ideas, perhaps you could ask God to have President Monson give you the calling for the public affairs office of the church.

The man involved was a General Authority of the church. If it was handled discreetly and with no public statement, people would work to jump on it as the LDS trying to hide things like the Catholic Church did.
You said in your comment above that unless something directly affects me then my involvement is not needed. Yet we are all here talking about a GA that was excommunicated (doesn't personally involve me) and getting involved one way or another (because it does actually affect us).

And your last statement of the church had to say something otherwise it would look like the LDS were hiding things like the Catholic church. See, this is what I am referring to in my post that you replied to dealing with the problem that members often deal with severe sins quietly and do not turn in the offenders. This makes the church look like it's hiding things like the catholics did.

And you assumed that I was opposed to forgiveness and was possibly harboring hate in my heart or grudges. All the while you said the exact same thing I was saying. Just wanted to point this out. It doesn't mean I am opposed to forgiveness or hold a grudge any more than you do for your above comment.

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skmo
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Re: GA Excommunicated

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MMbelieve wrote: August 13th, 2017, 10:50 pm Not sure why someone who breaks the law and is held accountable for his actions has any single thing to do with his forgiveness on the matter. There are dues to pay regardless if one is forgiven or not.
I know enough of church workings to know that if laws are broken, law enforcement will be involved. One of our own Articles of Faith proclaims we are subject to laws, and that we uphold and sustain the law. If crimes are involved, I am quite sure we will hear about it. If it involves the person excommunicated using their office to hurt other people or to cover improper actions of someone else who has, then yes, the law should be involved and I'm sure we'll hear about it. If it was a situation like the Catholic Church had, I'm quite certain we'd have heard about it long before the Church public affairs office got involved.
I believe this idea of hush hush over sins that are against the law and require one to account to the law does affect all of us. So ya, I will get involved to the degree I am here, by talking about it and voicing my concern. This is a real problem in the church and it causes damages and heartache to victims and families.
If you or your family are hurt or involved, you have a right to be involved. Feel free to share your knowledge about the situation you believe we need to know. If you are not, prying into private business of others (unless it's like I mentioned in the above scenario, which I'm sure we would have already heard about) is not going to benefit you or other people who need to gossip about it.

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shadow
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Re: GA Excommunicated

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freedomforall wrote: August 13th, 2017, 7:18 pm
brlenox wrote: August 13th, 2017, 6:54 pmIt is interesting to me the extent to which you are working to hold on to this sense of unrighteous interpretation in how the church administers the process of a church court. Your last scenario could certainly happen and I'm sure may from time to time. However, it is no different for them than for us. The path they are on when they leave this life is the path they will remain on hereafter. If they have ceased to be rebellious and are diligently seeking realignment with the gospel of Jesus Christ and are repentant then since He is the constant they will not be left without a means of fulfilling what is required. There is no unfairness with Christ, nor any restrictions on his ability to see that all receive the benefit of his love and sacrifice. One such as this is not dying in their sins. For they are repentant and Christ forgives the repentant. All imbalances will be addressed at least during the millennium if not sooner.
Alma 34
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


So if a person is exed and doesn't decide to repent for six months to a year, hypothetically, and they die before beginning then there can be no repentance (labor) according to the scriptures above.

Or do we just ignore the context of them and use our own imagination?

I guess I have good reason to be concerned and hold onto my thoughts on the matter; it is all scripture based.
It's all based off your interpretation of scripture, but it's not scripture based per se. I think saying that people can't repent after mortality is akin to saying babies who aren't baptized go to hell. It's simply not true. We are judged at death, true, but it's not a final judgement. Section 138 makes this clear. The righteous spirits teach the unrighteous spirits and help them repent. Once they repent and become righteous, they then bring forth fruits of repentance, possibly meaning in part that they then teach the unrighteous. The atonement is eternal. It doesn't lose its power at the end of mortality.

MMbelieve
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Re: GA Excommunicated

Post by MMbelieve »

skmo wrote: August 13th, 2017, 10:52 pm
Finrock wrote: August 10th, 2017, 3:02 pmYeah, doesn't everyone know that there are a set of mortals on this planet who are so above reproach that it is sin to question any of their decisions? To even consider that this special group of men are subject to mortal frailties is blasphemy!

-Finrock
I love sarcasm. Truly, I do (just read some of my posts to see that.) However, this is so weak it doesn't even look like sarcasm, but rather more like bitter tears still being shed over something unresolved.
And your point of that statement it what exactly? If this person has bitter tears over something unresolved what are you attempting to do by openly shaming or calling them out?

Perhaps this person is not the one crying bitter tears but more a reflection of the one who said it? Projection?

Look, we all have unresolved issues of one kind or another, its part of life to learn and grow. Sometimes we get thrown under the bus and other times we throw someone else under the bus. I was raised to know that 2 wrongs don't make a right.

We need to stop throwing people under the bus because we ourselves are feeling crappy inside. It's not right.

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