GA Excommunicated

[AI2.0]

Do you really believe that breaking Elder James Hamula's right to confidentiality and telling everyone that he didn't become disillusioned by apostacy is really helpful to him & his family rather than the church? So, to you, it's better for Elder Hamula & his family for people to wonder about which crime or sin he committed rather than consider the possibility of him being disillusioned?

Do any of you have any real evidence that Brother Hamula's right to confidentiality was violated?

Yes, it's plainly obvious.
In the church handbook it states, "Those who sit on the council are to keep everything strictly confidential...Decisions to disfellowship or excommunicate are generally not announced publicly unless the transgression is widely known."
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1990/09/a-ch ... s?lang=eng
And then we have people representing the church, telling us about the private, confidential conclusions from the council - that he was not excommunicated for disillusionment or apostasy.

The handbook says they are not GENERALLY announced publicly UNLESS the transgression is widely known. The transgression is not widely known but Elder Hamula held a prominent position and that means it is not going to be handled the normal way. I don't know why you think it benefits the church, benefiting the church would have been not making this public at all, but that's not possible.

[AI2.0]

Do you really believe that breaking Elder James Hamula's right to confidentiality and telling everyone that he didn't become disillusioned by apostacy is really helpful to him & his family rather than the church?

We have no idea what this brother's wishes were. I find it entirely likely he wanted it pointed out the excommunication was not for apostasy so that members for which he formerly had stewardship would know he did not leave because he no longer had a testimony in the church and its leaders. I believe I would want that pointed out were I in his place, so as to not cause others to fall into apostasy from what happened to him.

1) It doesn't matter what he wants - the church has made that obvious. They have rules based on running a church, not on the desires of individual members. According to their own rules, excommunications are to be kept private. The only exception is when he's done something wrong that is widely known, which does not apply in this case. So they broke their own rules, stating that it was for his benefit, but in reality, they are stirring up more imaginings of what he did - which hurts his reputation in favor of attempting to maintain the reputation of the church.
2) If he wanted the public to know something, he could (& likely would) have stated it, or had a family or friend representative state it for him - through various media sources.

It feels like you are making a lot of assumptions about this and taking the position that Elder Hamula was wronged in some way. Are you certain that Elder Hamula was not consulted in what the church was going to say publicly on this subject? Do you have any idea what he did that caused his excommunication? I'm not sure, but I know that they used to announce excommunications in Priesthood exercises, do they do that now? The church didn't 'break their own rules' as you claim, because the 'rules' are not as you state, the handbook guidelines were not violated. Is there a reason you are taking the church to task on this and taking offense for something that has nothing to do with you?

[skmo]

It doesn't matter what he wants - the church has made that obvious.

I have to agree with AI2.0. You seem determined to maintain the church wronged him in this. Being personally involved in the excommunication myself, I know first hand what they're about, I don't need to rely on the speculations of outsiders with an agenda against the church. PLEASE NOTE - I am not accusing you of this, but it is a common tactic I see among people who oppose the gospel. As this person heled a position of high authority in the church his excommunication is going to be a matter which almost certainly will impact a lot of people, and in situations like those it is important to make sure maliciousness is headed off.

As I said, I do not believe the3 church would have made a statement like this without his knowledge and approval.

[freedomforall]

Maybe we have people claiming to be following Christ, claiming to be righteous, claiming to be of high moral standard, yet are only a wolf wearing sheeps clothing.

Luke 11:39
39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

In other words, why are so many people willing to find whatever dirt they can find on another and are quick to spread gossip, all the while claiming to follow the example of Christ?

[Spaced_Out]

On one hand, I can see reason for excommunication - especially if it is an organization of men, who require standards to live by and do not love purely as Jesus and God do. If the main goal is to maintain a church - an organization of people - it makes complete sense to do ALL that is necessary to fulfill that goal, even if it breaks Jesus's highest commandments. However, if the main goal is a higher, more broad and loving goal that Jesus suggested, it makes sense that all of us sinners would not have a right to call another to repentance or kick them out because their sins are worse than ours.

To be clear, I tend to be a bit punitive too - which I'm working on somewhat. Yet, I have a very strong testimony that love is not just kissing up, hippy love as you may call it. I believe love is striving for what is best - through trial & error. Sometimes it's tough love - it may hurt temporarily but in the end it all works out. Some may claim that ex-communicating someone is tough love - but to me it's essentially the hypocrisy that you seem to hate so much. It's wrong in other ways besides sinners telling another sinner they sinned too much to belong. It's denying the plan of God that "there must needs be opposition in all things." And it's also rejecting and breaking the greatest commandments (to love) upon "which hang all the law and the prophets."

You worship or imagine a different God to whom I do.
As stated many times throwing people out is what God does.

Mormon 9:4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

There is a big disconnect concerning your understanding of the love of God and how things work, and what is real love..

What about 1/3 of the host of heaven kicked out from the presence of God never to get a body but be subject to Satan for all eternity.
The entire worlds population destroyed except for 8 people in the flood.
The Jaradites all wiped out except one person
The scriptures are very plain that majority of people will end up in the telestrial world as they will be as numerous as the start in the heavens.
50% of temple recommend holders will not make it to the celestial kingdom - that is the official interpretation of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins
Many are called but few are chosen
Lehi vision of the tree of God, very few people eat the fruit (love of God) - but the house without foundations is filled to capacity and most go straight there
The parable of the sower very few seed fall in fertile ground and progress to maturity

Yes the LDS church is an organisation of men governed and directed by Jesus Christ. There are very many scriptures in the Book of Mormon and D&C that state the law concerning excommunication.

[Spaced_Out]

Maybe we have people claiming to be following Christ, claiming to be righteous, claiming to be of high moral standard, yet are only a wolf wearing sheeps clothing.

Luke 11:39
39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

In other words, why are so many people willing to find whatever dirt they can find on another and are quick to spread gossip, all the while claiming to follow the example of Christ?

The scriptures plainly teach we have to clean the inward vessel first , ie. not allow wolves in the church that set bad examples and destroy the flock of God. It is like having a temple recommend, there are worthiness standards else you might as well open the temple to all people and turn the temples into amusement parks.
Standards also apply to keeping membership in the church. If you don't live a celestial law there is no benefit in being a member of the church.

[freedomforall]

Maybe we have people claiming to be following Christ, claiming to be righteous, claiming to be of high moral standard, yet are only a wolf wearing sheeps clothing.

Luke 11:39
39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

In other words, why are so many people willing to find whatever dirt they can find on another and are quick to spread gossip, all the while claiming to follow the example of Christ?

The scriptures plainly teach we have to clean the inward vessel first , ie. not allow wolfs in the church that set bad examples and destroy the flock of God. It is like having a temple recommend, there are worthiness standards else you might as well open the temple to all people and turn the temples into amusement parks.
Standards also apply to keeping membership in the church. If you don't live a celestial law there is no benefit in being a member of the church.

Some here claim I don't understand scripture, so I implore someone to give us their interpretation of these verses. Then perhaps I can give mine.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

[freedomforall]

On one hand, I can see reason for excommunication - especially if it is an organization of men, who require standards to live by and do not love purely as Jesus and God do. If the main goal is to maintain a church - an organization of people - it makes complete sense to do ALL that is necessary to fulfill that goal, even if it breaks Jesus's highest commandments. However, if the main goal is a higher, more broad and loving goal that Jesus suggested, it makes sense that all of us sinners would not have a right to call another to repentance or kick them out because their sins are worse than ours.

To be clear, I tend to be a bit punitive too - which I'm working on somewhat. Yet, I have a very strong testimony that love is not just kissing up, hippy love as you may call it. I believe love is striving for what is best - through trial & error. Sometimes it's tough love - it may hurt temporarily but in the end it all works out. Some may claim that ex-communicating someone is tough love - but to me it's essentially the hypocrisy that you seem to hate so much. It's wrong in other ways besides sinners telling another sinner they sinned too much to belong. It's denying the plan of God that "there must needs be opposition in all things." And it's also rejecting and breaking the greatest commandments (to love) upon "which hang all the law and the prophets."

You worship or imagine a different God to whom I do.
As stated many times throwing people out is what God does.

Mormon 9:4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

There is a big disconnect concerning your understanding of the love of God and how things work, and what is real love..

What about 1/3 of the host of heaven kicked out from the presence of God never to get a body but be subject to Satan for all eternity.
The entire worlds population destroyed except for 8 people in the flood.
The Jaradites all wiped out except one person
The scriptures are very plain that majority of people will end up in the telestrial world as they will be as numerous as the start in the heavens. (sands upon the seashore ?)
50% of temple recommend holders will not make it to the celestial kingdom - that is the official interpretation of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins
Many are called but few are chosen
Lehi vision of the tree of God (life ?), very few people eat the fruit (love of God) - but the house without foundations is filled to capacity and most go straight there
The parable of the sower very few seed fall in fertile ground and progress to maturity

Yes the LDS church is an organisation of men governed and directed by Jesus Christ. There are very many scriptures in the Book of Mormon and D&C that state the law concerning excommunication.

[Spaced_Out]

Lehi vision of the tree of God (life ?),

Ooops tree of (life) %%- , need to go to primary, I am a convert so forget what the trees are called. It is starting to show my scripture reading of late has not been very good. I will try to do better next time - and not read so many financial articles.

[skmo]

On one hand, I can see reason for excommunication - especially if it is an organization of men, who require standards to live by and do not love purely as Jesus and God do.

It's really sad you do not understand excommunication. It's even more sad you do not understand the full nature of God the Father or His Son.

If the main goal is to maintain a church - an organization of people - it makes complete sense to do ALL that is necessary to fulfill that goal, even if it breaks Jesus's highest commandments. However, if the main goal is a higher, more broad and loving goal that Jesus suggested, it makes sense that all of us sinners would not have a right to call another to repentance or kick them out because their sins are worse than ours.

Since we humans are organizations of people, God, who is a God of order, uses a church, an organization to help prepare the people in these, the last days. We are in the final times before Christ's Second Coming of which He spoke. As such, the Fullness of the Gospel has been again instituted among the people of the earth. Since God is not physically here among us, He established His church to bring His Word to all the people on earth. Ordinances are performed to help people take upon themselves covenants wherein we promise to obey God and He promises to give us His fullest blessings and help us along the way. To perform these ordinances we need His organization to administer them God is not just "Throw blessings against the wall and see what sticks" kind of being. We know from all we've read, all we learn of science, all we can observe that He is a God of order. His church helps us achieve this.

Some may claim that ex-communicating someone is tough love - but to me it's essentially the hypocrisy that you seem to hate so much.

Again, I'm sorry you cannot understand excommunication. You, like so many others, see it as a punishment. It is not. It is a blessing. I broke sacred covenants, things which I promised not to do. I needed to be able to truly find a broken heart and a contrite spirit, to be able to cleanse the transgression. In order to do this, I had to be removed from full fellowship, to come back through a process to cleanse myself through the re-birth of baptism. It is only a punishment in the way that a prideful person would try to hide living in their sin.

[freedomforall]

Lehi vision of the tree of God (life ?),

Ooops tree of (life) %%- , need to go to primary, I am a convert so forget what the trees are called. It is starting to show my scripture reading of late has not been very good. I will try to do better next time - and not read so many financial articles.

All is good. I'm still learning too. :ymhug:

[Spaced_Out]

Lehi vision of the tree of God (life ?),

Ooops tree of (life) %%- , need to go to primary, I am a convert so forget what the trees are called. It is starting to show my scripture reading of late has not been very good. I will try to do better next time - and not read so many financial articles.

All is good. I'm still learning too. :ymhug:

For me it is learning to overcome the natural man and be more diligent in doing the basics., is still where I am stuck....

[freedomforall]

Lehi vision of the tree of God (life ?),

Ooops tree of (life) %%- , need to go to primary, I am a convert so forget what the trees are called. It is starting to show my scripture reading of late has not been very good. I will try to do better next time - and not read so many financial articles.

All is good. I'm still learning too. :ymhug:

For me it is learning to overcome the natural man and be more diligent in doing the basics., is still where I am stuck....

You my or may not know this information that truly helps us overcome the natural man.

Moroni 10:32,33
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and (c)deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

(c) TG Perseverance

Rom. 12:1 (1–3)
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1) seek to do better with conviction, humility and real intent.
2) repent often
3) persevere in doing good
4) love God with all mind and heart
5) the Lord will make us Holy, without spot
6) we become perfect in Christ, now, in our lifetime.

In other words, we give Christ our sins, and He lends us His perfection in return, thus allowing us to be perfect...in Him. It is a partnership that if both are participating, in unison, the sinful person becomes perfect. But, we can't hand wooden nickles (doing our part daily) to Christ and expect him to keep the partnership alive.

[Mark]

On one hand, I can see reason for excommunication - especially if it is an organization of men, who require standards to live by and do not love purely as Jesus and God do.

It's really sad you do not understand excommunication. It's even more sad you do not understand the full nature of God the Father or His Son.

If the main goal is to maintain a church - an organization of people - it makes complete sense to do ALL that is necessary to fulfill that goal, even if it breaks Jesus's highest commandments. However, if the main goal is a higher, more broad and loving goal that Jesus suggested, it makes sense that all of us sinners would not have a right to call another to repentance or kick them out because their sins are worse than ours.

Since we humans are organizations of people, God, who is a God of order, uses a church, an organization to help prepare the people in these, the last days. We are in the final times before Christ's Second Coming of which He spoke. As such, the Fullness of the Gospel has been again instituted among the people of the earth. Since God is not physically here among us, He established His church to bring His Word to all the people on earth. Ordinances are performed to help people take upon themselves covenants wherein we promise to obey God and He promises to give us His fullest blessings and help us along the way. To perform these ordinances we need His organization to administer them God is not just "Throw blessings against the wall and see what sticks" kind of being. We know from all we've read, all we learn of science, all we can observe that He is a God of order. His church helps us achieve this.

Some may claim that ex-communicating someone is tough love - but to me it's essentially the hypocrisy that you seem to hate so much.

Again, I'm sorry you cannot understand excommunication. You, like so many others, see it as a punishment. It is not. It is a blessing. I broke sacred covenants, things which I promised not to do. I needed to be able to truly find a broken heart and a contrite spirit, to be able to cleanse the transgression. In order to do this, I had to be removed from full fellowship, to come back through a process to cleanse myself through the re-birth of baptism. It is only a punishment in the way that a prideful person would try to hide living in their sin.

Great post Brother. Thanks.

[skmo]

Again, I'm sorry you cannot understand excommunication. You, like so many others, see it as a punishment. It is not. It is a blessing. I broke sacred covenants, things which I promised not to do. I needed to be able to truly find a broken heart and a contrite spirit, to be able to cleanse the transgression. In order to do this, I had to be removed from full fellowship, to come back through a process to cleanse myself through the re-birth of baptism. It is only a punishment in the way that a prideful person would try to hide living in their sin.

Great post Brother. Thanks.

Thanks, Brother. Excommunication is so very misunderstood, it's something which is difficult to grasp unless you've been through one. I think people react the way they do because it horrifies them to think of themselves or someone they love being in that position. I do understand, but when you go through repentance and try to change your heart, you start to see the pain and horror are from the sin, not the help you receive in overcoming it. The judgements that may come from others are nothing to having your soul destroyed by sin. Excommunication brings healing. If people judge me harshly or think evil of me for my excommunication, it will affect them, not me. I hope people will be able to see that in me when I come back into membership.

I eagerly await the opportunity to start teaching again in church so I can share the joys of repentance with others.

[Alaris]

Again, I'm sorry you cannot understand excommunication. You, like so many others, see it as a punishment. It is not. It is a blessing. I broke sacred covenants, things which I promised not to do. I needed to be able to truly find a broken heart and a contrite spirit, to be able to cleanse the transgression. In order to do this, I had to be removed from full fellowship, to come back through a process to cleanse myself through the re-birth of baptism. It is only a punishment in the way that a prideful person would try to hide living in their sin.

Great post Brother. Thanks.

Thanks, Brother. Excommunication is so very misunderstood, it's something which is difficult to grasp unless you've been through one. I think people react the way they do because it horrifies them to think of themselves or someone they love being in that position. I do understand, but when you go through repentance and try to change your heart, you start to see the pain and horror are from the sin, not the help you receive in overcoming it. The judgements that may come from others are nothing to having your soul destroyed by sin. Excommunication brings healing. If people judge me harshly or think evil of me for my excommunication, it will affect them, not me. I hope people will be able to see that in me when I come back into membership.

I eagerly await the opportunity to start teaching again in church so I can share the joys of repentance with others.

I value your words and your conviction... To accept excommunication and return to the Lord is no small feat in this world beset by pride and sin. I rejoice in your testimony and faithfulness brother. If you are ever judged harshly you are welcome at my table.

[freedomforall]

Again, I'm sorry you cannot understand excommunication. You, like so many others, see it as a punishment. It is not. It is a blessing. I broke sacred covenants, things which I promised not to do. I needed to be able to truly find a broken heart and a contrite spirit, to be able to cleanse the transgression. In order to do this, I had to be removed from full fellowship, to come back through a process to cleanse myself through the re-birth of baptism. It is only a punishment in the way that a prideful person would try to hide living in their sin.

Great post Brother. Thanks.

Thanks, Brother. Excommunication is so very misunderstood, it's something which is difficult to grasp unless you've been through one. I think people react the way they do because it horrifies them to think of themselves or someone they love being in that position. I do understand, but when you go through repentance and try to change your heart, you start to see the pain and horror are from the sin, not the help you receive in overcoming it. The judgements that may come from others are nothing to having your soul destroyed by sin. Excommunication brings healing. If people judge me harshly or think evil of me for my excommunication, it will affect them, not me. I hope people will be able to see that in me when I come back into membership.

I eagerly await the opportunity to start teaching again in church so I can share the joys of repentance with others.

Doctrine and Covenants 64:9
9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

Eph. 4:32
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

Mosiah 26:31-32
31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

[Mark]

Again, I'm sorry you cannot understand excommunication. You, like so many others, see it as a punishment. It is not. It is a blessing. I broke sacred covenants, things which I promised not to do. I needed to be able to truly find a broken heart and a contrite spirit, to be able to cleanse the transgression. In order to do this, I had to be removed from full fellowship, to come back through a process to cleanse myself through the re-birth of baptism. It is only a punishment in the way that a prideful person would try to hide living in their sin.

Great post Brother. Thanks.

Thanks, Brother. Excommunication is so very misunderstood, it's something which is difficult to grasp unless you've been through one. I think people react the way they do because it horrifies them to think of themselves or someone they love being in that position. I do understand, but when you go through repentance and try to change your heart, you start to see the pain and horror are from the sin, not the help you receive in overcoming it. The judgements that may come from others are nothing to having your soul destroyed by sin. Excommunication brings healing. If people judge me harshly or think evil of me for my excommunication, it will affect them, not me. I hope people will be able to see that in me when I come back into membership.

I eagerly await the opportunity to start teaching again in church so I can share the joys of repentance with others.

I value your words and your conviction... To accept excommunication and return to the Lord is no small feat in this world beset by pride and sin. I rejoice in your testimony and faithfulness brother. If you are ever judged harshly you are welcome at my table.

I'll heartily second that! :ymhug:

[brianj]

Again, I'm sorry you cannot understand excommunication. You, like so many others, see it as a punishment. It is not. It is a blessing. I broke sacred covenants, things which I promised not to do. I needed to be able to truly find a broken heart and a contrite spirit, to be able to cleanse the transgression. In order to do this, I had to be removed from full fellowship, to come back through a process to cleanse myself through the re-birth of baptism. It is only a punishment in the way that a prideful person would try to hide living in their sin.

Great post Brother. Thanks.

Thanks, Brother. Excommunication is so very misunderstood, it's something which is difficult to grasp unless you've been through one. I think people react the way they do because it horrifies them to think of themselves or someone they love being in that position. I do understand, but when you go through repentance and try to change your heart, you start to see the pain and horror are from the sin, not the help you receive in overcoming it. The judgements that may come from others are nothing to having your soul destroyed by sin. Excommunication brings healing. If people judge me harshly or think evil of me for my excommunication, it will affect them, not me. I hope people will be able to see that in me when I come back into membership.

I eagerly await the opportunity to start teaching again in church so I can share the joys of repentance with others.

It wasn't until late last year that I finally recognized excommunication as a blessing. I wish I could be there the first time you are able to teach a lesson on this subject!