Mysteries of the Kingdom

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freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

1 Cor. 8:6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Baptism, Essential
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/bapti ... l?lang=eng

Doug
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Doug »

freedomforall,
OK, you win. you've bullied me out of here.
If anyone would actuall care to look, the scriptures I've shown here are in harmony with
the doctrine. The testimonies of true messengers tell of the doctrine.
And the doctrine if offensive to you and so it is your whole mission in life to stomp it out

But your behavior is like that of an apostate, they can leave the church but they can't leave it alone.
You have shown a clear predudice against the truth, so you just can't leave it alone.

There have not been anyone here willing to stand up aginst the bullying, including the forum owner.
So you can be proud of youself that you have won, I'm gone.

And unlike you who have said goodbye to this topic twice, I'll keep my word.

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Matthew 15:11,20
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.


Gossip

not go up and down as a talebearer, Lev. 19:16.

Keep thy tongue from evil, Ps. 34:13.

talebearer revealeth secrets, Prov. 11:13 (20:19).

words of a talebearer are as wounds, Prov. 18:8.

Whoso keepeth … his tongue keepeth his soul from troubles, Prov. 21:23.

where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth, Prov. 26:20.

every idle word … give account thereof, Matt. 12:36.

which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man, Matt. 15:11.

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned, Luke 6:37.

He that is without sin … let him first cast a stone, John 8:7.

no corrupt communication … but that which is good, Eph. 4:29.

tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not, 1 Tim. 5:13.

If any … bridleth not his tongue, James 1:26.

tongue can no man tame, James 3:8.

Speak not evil one of another, James 4:11.

refrain his tongue from evil, 1 Pet. 3:10.

did indulge themselves … in babblings, Alma 1:32.

go about spreading rumors and contentions, Hel. 16:22.

Thou shalt not speak evil of thy neighbor, D&C 42:27.

cease to find fault one with another, D&C 88:124.


Backbiting

backbiteth not with his tongue, Ps. 15:3.

Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off, Ps. 101:5.

driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue, Prov. 25:23.

when men shall … say … evil, Matt. 5:11.

Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, Rom. 1:30.

lest there be debates, envyings, … backbitings, 2 Cor. 12:20.

Let all … evil speaking, be put away, Eph. 4:31.

Grudge not one against another, James 5:9.

laying aside … all evil speakings, 1 Pet. 2:1.

doth make a mock of his brother, Alma 5:30.

people did revile against the prophets, Ether 7:24.

see that there is no … backbiting, nor evil speaking, D&C 20:54.

Thou shalt not speak evil of thy neighbor, D&C 42:27.

cease to find fault one with another, D&C 88:124.

cease to speak evil one of another, D&C 136:23.


Slander

they might have matter for an evil report, Neh. 6:13.

heard the slander … fear was on every side, Ps. 31:13.

thou slanderest thine own mother’s son, Ps. 50:20.

Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, Ps. 101:5.

he that uttereth a slander, is a fool, Prov. 10:18.

grievous revolters, walking with slanders, Jer. 6:28.

every neighbour will walk with slanders, Jer. 9:4.

Blessed are ye, when men … shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, Matt. 5:11.

as we be slanderously reported, Rom. 3:8.

evil speaking, be put away from you, Eph. 4:31.

must their wives be grave, not slanderers, 1 Tim. 3:11.

speak evil of no man, Titus 3:2.

end to lyings and slanders against thy people, D&C 109:30.

let the tongue of the slanderer cease its perverseness, D&C 112:9.


Galatians 1:9
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


HappyCamper8
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Doug,

I'm interested in some of the things you have stated. Are you willing to answer a couple questions? Some of it makes sense, it's just some things I have a hard time fitting into this theory.

One is the question on Celestial Marriage as has been stated before. I can see some potential workarounds for that though...

Another is that it seems to indicate in the temple that Adam is subordinate to Christ. If you watch they way the creation happens, it seems Adam is answering to Christ. How do you reconcile that? I do have a potential workaround for that but am curious if you thought about this and had an answer.

Another is this theory says Adam is God and Adam lived to be around 900 years old. How many people were on the earth by the time his "end" came? (I say "end" as you mention he never died on earth.) some have tried to estimate how many people may have been on the earth at the time of Noah and the numbers are huge. Noah was born not too long after Adam's end on the earth. Who were people praying to? If Adam is God, and he was on the earth with potentially millions of people at one point, who were those people praying to? This one is the question that baffles me the most. I'm not sure how all this would work out.

Thanks!

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

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Doug wrote: August 4th, 2017, 1:36 pm
sandman45 wrote: August 4th, 2017, 11:22 am
Doug wrote: August 4th, 2017, 3:24 am A question to ponder;
D&C 76
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
When I read this, I feel great emotion, a huge lose, great sorrow.
And why such emotion? " he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning"

"a son of the morning" to what does this refer?
maybe has reference to resurrection or his Priesthood Authority
D&C 76: 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God
Yehp, He came forth in the first resurrection, He and Christ were resurrected beings. And us being their siblings, are also resurrected.
I will disagree with Christ being a resurrected being beforehand.. See Ether account..

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by sandman45 »

freedomforall wrote: August 5th, 2017, 1:28 am Did you read my comments concerning Wilford Woodruff, my Great-great grandfather?
Would you like a badge or something? good job.. my great, great, great, great ............grandfather is Adam the Father of us all

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

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freedomforall wrote: August 6th, 2017, 5:07 pm 1 Cor. 8:6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Baptism, Essential
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/bapti ... l?lang=eng
Epheisans 4: 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
D&C 27:11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;
D&C 138: 38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all,

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

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Daniel 7: 9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Notice how in verse 10 the Ancient of days has thousand thousands already ministering and worshipping him and has a THRONE, and his wheels are as burning FIRE.. his hair is PURE wool and garment as WHITE as snow..

Ancient of Days gives the Son of Man dominion, glory, and a kingdom.

Its not the other way around like some suggest.. why? because like I pointed out the Ancient of Days already has the THRONE and GLORY.. and the son of man, according to this scripture does NOT.

Love this chapter

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

sandman45 wrote: August 7th, 2017, 2:00 pm
Daniel 7: 9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Notice how in verse 10 the Ancient of days has thousand thousands already ministering and worshipping him and has a THRONE, and his wheels are as burning FIRE.. his hair is PURE wool and garment as WHITE as snow..

Ancient of Days gives the Son of Man dominion, glory, and a kingdom.

Its not the other way around like some suggest.. why? because like I pointed out the Ancient of Days already has the THRONE and GLORY.. and the son of man, according to this scripture does NOT.

Love this chapter
Ancient of Days equates to Adam. I think we agree on this.

Adam: In Hebrew adam is also a common noun, meaning man, or mankind. TG Adam.

The kingdom spoken of in verse 14 is the Millennial reign of Jesus.
14 b kingdom TG Millennium.

Rev. 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The first kingdoms listed in verse 15 above are the Earthly Kings
The second kingdoms listed is Kingdom of God, on Earth.

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Can we agree that Adam is subordinate to God?

Michael, one of the Chief Princes has charge over people.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 10
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Adam is the first man, thus the Father of all mankind as mortals. This is why he is called father of all.

Abraham 1:3
3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.


Sandman wrote: Its not the other way around like some suggest.. why? because like I pointed out the Ancient of Days already has the THRONE and GLORY.. and the son of man, according to this scripture does NOT.

Out of respect and honor, Michael (the Chief Prince) tells the Lord, Jesus, that the earth is ready for his appearance. So Adam cannot be above Jehovah/Jesus as thought. Adam has a throne, true, but cannot possess higher authority. He merely presents the earth to the Lord.

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

sandman45 wrote: August 7th, 2017, 1:22 pm
freedomforall wrote: August 5th, 2017, 1:28 am Did you read my comments concerning Wilford Woodruff, my Great-great grandfather?
Would you like a badge or something? good job.. my great, great, great, great ............grandfather is Adam the Father of us all
You may want to understand that Doug has referenced WW many times as a proponent of Adam-God doctrine. I already know this, however, I do not need to agree with WW no matter who he is or what he was, even as my GGF. The JOD's are not canonized scripture to be taken to the bank.

Yes, Adam is our earthly father, he being the first man on earth and starting the human race. This is a given.

The Adam God doctrine is nothing more than an anomaly and cannot be proven correct.

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by sandman45 »

freedomforall wrote: August 7th, 2017, 3:38 pm Sandman wrote: Its not the other way around like some suggest.. why? because like I pointed out the Ancient of Days already has the THRONE and GLORY.. and the son of man, according to this scripture does NOT.

Out of respect and honor, Michael (the Chief Prince) tells the Lord, Jesus, that the earth is ready for his appearance. So Adam cannot be above Jehovah/Jesus as thought. Adam has a throne, true, but cannot possess higher authority. He merely presents the earth to the Lord.
hmm pretty sure it says
was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed
No where in that scripture does it say "He merely presents the earth to the Lord..." the Son of Man is brought before the Ancient of Days, and the Ancient of Days gives to the Son of Man a dominion, glory, and a kingdom.

Adam was given the Priesthood first and Dominion first
The Priesthood was first given to Adam* (not Christ); *he obtained the First Presidency*, and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation, before the world was formed, as in Gen. 1:26, 27, 28. *He had dominion given him over every living creature*. He is Michael the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures.
The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him. - Joseph Smith
How does he preside over the spirits if he isn't the Father of them? That is completely out of order. And he is head of the human family after the resurrection? So he is the the Father
The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years [see Joseph Smith Translation, Hebrews 7:3]. The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. *When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam’s authority.*
Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of all the dispensations that are to be revealed.


“This, then, is the nature of the Priesthood; every man holding the Presidency of his dispensation, and one man holding the Presidency of them all, even Adam; ( teachings of Joseph Smith chapter 8 )

"Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham's record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third the witness or Testator." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 190.)


*additional Info if you want to check out*

If we start to think that Jesus is NOT Jehovah then things clear up.. We could talk about this topic for a while..

Jesus bore the sins of the world . . . in submission to the eternal fiat of Jehovah . . . (Med. and Atone., p. 150) - John Taylor


As the Son of Man, He endured all that it was possible for flesh and blood to endure, as the Son of God He triumphed over all, and forever ascended to the right hand of God, to further carry out the designs of Jehovah pertaining to the world and to the human family. ( Mediation and Atonement, Ch.21 - John Taylor)


The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob . . . is our Father. He is our God and Father of Jesus Christ…. He is the father of our spirits…. (Utah Hist. Quar., Aug. 4, 1867, 29:68)

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

sandman45 wrote: August 7th, 2017, 5:22 pm
freedomforall wrote: August 7th, 2017, 3:38 pm Sandman wrote: Its not the other way around like some suggest.. why? because like I pointed out the Ancient of Days already has the THRONE and GLORY.. and the son of man, according to this scripture does NOT.

Out of respect and honor, Michael (the Chief Prince) tells the Lord, Jesus, that the earth is ready for his appearance. So Adam cannot be above Jehovah/Jesus as thought. Adam has a throne, true, but cannot possess higher authority. He merely presents the earth to the Lord.
hmm pretty sure it says
was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed
No where in that scripture does it say "He merely presents the earth to the Lord..." the Son of Man is brought before the Ancient of Days, and the Ancient of Days gives to the Son of Man a dominion, glory, and a kingdom.

Adam was given the Priesthood first and Dominion first
The Priesthood was first given to Adam* (not Christ); *he obtained the First Presidency*, and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation, before the world was formed, as in Gen. 1:26, 27, 28. *He had dominion given him over every living creature*. He is Michael the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures.
The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him. - Joseph Smith
How does he preside over the spirits if he isn't the Father of them? That is completely out of order. And he is head of the human family after the resurrection? So he is the the Father
The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years [see Joseph Smith Translation, Hebrews 7:3]. The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. *When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam’s authority.*
Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of all the dispensations that are to be revealed.


“This, then, is the nature of the Priesthood; every man holding the Presidency of his dispensation, and one man holding the Presidency of them all, even Adam; ( teachings of Joseph Smith chapter 8 )

"Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham's record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third the witness or Testator." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 190.)


*additional Info if you want to check out*

If we start to think that Jesus is NOT Jehovah then things clear up.. We could talk about this topic for a while..

Jesus bore the sins of the world . . . in submission to the eternal fiat of Jehovah . . . (Med. and Atone., p. 150) - John Taylor


As the Son of Man, He endured all that it was possible for flesh and blood to endure, as the Son of God He triumphed over all, and forever ascended to the right hand of God, to further carry out the designs of Jehovah pertaining to the world and to the human family. ( Mediation and Atonement, Ch.21 - John Taylor)


The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob . . . is our Father. He is our God and Father of Jesus Christ…. He is the father of our spirits…. (Utah Hist. Quar., Aug. 4, 1867, 29:68)


I read scriptural references provided in scripture for clarification of things read as well as the Holy Ghost giving me inspiration of scriptural meaning. We don't agree on many issues so we will simply have to agree to disagree instead of having back and forth dialog that will end up a fiasco.

I could bear my testimony, but truly believe it would fall under horrible scrutiny,criticism and mockery. I offer scripture as the Spirit guides, and if I relent and switch to another doctrine that is nothing more than an anomaly how could that go well with my self respect and sure knowledge of what I know to be true at present?

You are free to believe what you will, but there will be opposition at every turn by attempting to sway others in that belief. Testimonies are hard earned and are not something to be toyed with except by the Spirit of truth. I do not see truth in everything coming out of writings of old except scriptures themselves and the God given interpretation which I claim not to have been derived of myself...but of the Holy Ghost.

That which I wrote above as explanation of scripture, I stand by. God the Father is not Adam. Adam is not above Christ. Jesus is the flesh with which Jehovah-God took upon himself in mortality as explained by Mosiah. Jehovah created the earth and its inhabitants, but is not the creator of our spirits. God the Father created our spirits, including Jehovah's and all of mankind.
Intelligence was not created nor could be. God the Father came down among the intelligences and created spirits for all.
Things I've learned are: Adam and Eve were not Celestial beings from another planet. Adam did not have other wives. Adam and Eve fell from the presence of God so all of us could come here to earth.
Adam and Eve both sinned, whereas Christ did not sin even once. Had he sinned none of us could be saved or resurrected. Adam can make no such claim. There cannot be a sinner, claimed to be God the Father, come to earth and say they are doing as the Father did, because Christ/Jehovah never sinned. Why would Christ not sin if his father had? Makes no sense.

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by sandman45 »

freedomforall wrote: August 7th, 2017, 6:16 pm
Adam and Eve both sinned, whereas Christ did not sin even once. Had he sinned none of us could be saved or resurrected. Adam can make no such claim. There cannot be a sinner, claimed to be God the Father, come to earth and say they are doing as the Father did, because Christ/Jehovah never sinned. Why would Christ not sin if his father had? Makes no sense.
They didn't sin..

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/06/the- ... e?lang=eng
President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) said: “I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. … This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin … for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!” 1

Regarding this distinction, Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles observed: “This suggested contrast between a sin and a transgression reminds us of the careful wording in the second article of faith: ‘We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression’ (emphasis added). It also echoes a familiar distinction in the law. Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin—inherently wrong—but a transgression—wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall.” 2

Even though Adam and Eve had not sinned, because of their transgression they had to face certain consequences, two of which were spiritual death and physical death. Physical death came to Adam and Eve at the end of their earthly lives, but spiritual death occurred as they were cast out of the Garden of Eden, being cut off from the presence of God (see Alma 42:9).
D&C 107: 43 Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.
They were as children like we are taught in the endowment.. and children are unaccountable and have no need of repentance and are not capable of committing sin.. like Moroni tells us.
Moroni 8: 10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto *those who are accountable and capable of committing sin*; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. 14 Behold I say unto you, that *he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.* 16 *Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner*, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, *I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do*; for perfect love casteth out all fear
What we should both come away from this discussion is this.

1. It was taught openly and frequently.

Brigham never denied what he taught and even said it was Joseph's Doctrine.
Collier (1999, p. 229 fn. 12) (citing minutes of meeting of the Quorum of Twelve, 4 April 1860, in which it was recorded: "It was Joseph's doctrine that Adam was God…God comes to earth and eats and partakes of fruit. Joseph could not reveal what was revealed to him, and if Joseph had it revealed, he was not told to reveal it."). Collier (1999, p. 360) (citing Wilford Woodruff Journal of 4 September 1860, in which George Q. Cannon said "that Adam is our Father [and] is a true doctrine revealed from God to Joseph & Brigham. For this same doctrine is taught in some of the old Jewish records which have never been in print...."). Collier (1999, p. 367) (citing Wilford Woodruff Journal of 16 December 1867, stating that "President Young said Adam was Michael the Archangel, & he was the Father of Jesus Christ & was our God & that Joseph taught this principle.")

2. Current Apostles say this about Brigham...
Brigham Young learned truth by carefully listening to Joseph Smith and striving to understand everything that was taught by word, example, or the Spirit. The resulting tutoring has blessed generations. It conditioned Brigham Young to learn additional truths and to share far more than he had received personally from Joseph Smith. Follow his example. -Richard G Scott
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

I wonder if Elder Scott is hinting at the Doctrine Brigham revealed that so many people are against...

Anyway thanks for the discussion FFA :D

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

sandman45 wrote: August 8th, 2017, 10:26 am
They didn't sin.. So are we to believe that neither Adam or Eve ever sinned once during their 900+ year sojourn on earth? Christ was only here for 30 years and did not sin one time. Shouldn't we get passed the "fall" and consider their whole lifetime? This is what I'm referring to.
It's a sad day to think that Jesus had to atone for the sins of his Father if Father was Michael/Adam. Isn't it also sad that people can quote the JOD all day long, yet refuse to reason things through and realize there are holes or gaps in the narrative? Does getting stuck within a box reveal the whole truth? Does it reveal the lack of integrity needed in thinking outside the box as well and putting together the whole narrative and see if all the pieces fit properly?

Who here can present a graph or whatever it is called, showing all the people involved, from God the Father all the way down to the simple man, their respective roles and what they did on earth and why? Let's see if all activities and responsibilities fit together and in the proper order.

God the Father, his name, origin, role and responsibilities
Jehovah, his origin, role and responsibilities
Jesus, his origin, role and responsibilities
Michael/Adam, same
Eve, same

Let's determine if Jesus actually atoned for his father's sins, if Adam as Michael was his father and Highest God.

Matt. 27:46
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

In the above, is Jesus really calling upon Michael/Adam

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

In the above, who is the Father Jesus is referring to?


Matt. 11:27
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, (c)and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

In the above, what is implied?

Perhaps the answer lies in the corrected portion, which is:

27 c and

JST Matt. 11:28 … and they to whom the Son will reveal himself; they shall see the Father also.


So now who is the Father?

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Who is willing to read D&C 109 and tell us who the Father is being referenced therein?

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by sandman45 »

freedomforall wrote: August 8th, 2017, 9:44 pm

Who here can present a graph or whatever it is called, showing all the people involved, from God the Father all the way down to the simple man, their respective roles and what they did on earth and why? Let's see if all activities and responsibilities fit together and in the proper order.

God the Father, his name, origin, role and responsibilities
Jehovah, his origin, role and responsibilities
Jesus, his origin, role and responsibilities
Michael/Adam, same
Eve, same
TLDR;

That is not how I see it. Think of the mirrors in the Temple.
I'll list out what I see and what Brigham and Joseph had taught. it also clears up temple and scriptural accounts.

N ( n means it goes forever )
Great Great Grand Father
Great Grand Father
Grand Father
Father
Son
Grandson
Great Grand Son
Great Great Grand son
N ( n means it goes forever )

Now apply it to Adam..

Elohim = *Grand Father*
Jehovah = *Father*
Michael = *Son*
Yeshua = *Grand Son*

The account in Abraham says the Gods created the earth. Those Gods are Elohim, Jehovah, Michael ( Not spririts ) - Creation Godhead -

The Godhead or trinity for us is Father, Son, Holy Ghost. or Father Adam, Christ the Son, Holy Spirit.

It makes sense to me we are all the same race. from the same family.. and it is the same pattern as here on earth.. anyway hope it clears it up if not it gives everyone something to think about

Long Version if you want to see who said what etc.. sorry if these had been posted before..
Joseph Smith
“According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods
before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall
enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.” (Doctrine and Covenants 121:32)

“Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council… The head God called together the
Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world… Come here ye learned men, and read, if you
can. I should not have introduced this testimony, were it not for the word rosh – the head, the Father of
the Gods. I should not have brought it up, only to show that I am right.” (TPJS, pg. 348-349)

The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the
head of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. Now the learned priests and the people rage, and the
heathen imagine a vain thing. If we pursue the Hebrew text further, it reads, ‘Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait
aashamayeen vehau auraits’—‘The head one of the Gods said, Let us make a man in our own image.’
I once asked a learned Jew, ‘If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the
plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?’ He replied, ‘That is the rule with few exceptions; but in
this case it would ruin the Bible.’ He acknowledged I was right. I come here to investigate these things
precisely as I believe them. Hear and judge for yourselves; and if you go away satisfied, well and good.
If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.

I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before. He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; and then was committed unto Him the keys, &c. I know it is good reasoning. (History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.22, p.476 [Joseph Smith])
On 8-9 March 1842 Joseph Smith worked on his Book of Abraham, "and they organized and formed, (that is, the Gods,) the heavens and the earth" (Times and Seasons 3 [15 March 1842]:720, words rearranged in Abraham 4:1). Who or how many Gods were involved is not known for sure. In the Nauvoo temple endowment as organized by Brigham Young the Gods were identified as three in number, that is, Eloheem [Elohim], Jehovah [also spelled Yahovah] and Michael. Michael had been previously identified by Joseph Smith as "Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days" (LDS D&C 27:11, added to early text in 1835).
What we have are three creation Gods, Eloheim, Yahovah [spelled that way in the Endowment House records] and Michael. They are not the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) but a different trinity. They are like a LDS priesthood presidency of three (Elder's Quorum, High Priest Quorum, First Presidency, Mission Presidency, Temple Presidency). But there are now two trinities, the regular Father, Son and Holy Ghost and the creation Gods Eloheim, Yahovah (Jehovah) and Michael. Brigham Young taught that in order to create a world a man would have received his exaltation as a God. At a Special Conference held on 28 August 1852 he explained it as an important key to understanding:

After men have got their exaltations and their crowns--have become Gods, even the sons of God--are made Kings of kings and Lord of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you" (Journal of Discourses 6:275).
I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bear your spirit, you will see Mother Eve (99).

At the School of the Prophets in June 1871 President Brigham Young taught, "Elohim, Yahova & Michael, were father, Son and grandson. They made this Earth & Michael became Adam" (Joseph F. Smith Journal, 17 June 1871, LDS archives). So this would mean:

Elohim = Father of Yahovah
Yahovah = Son of Elohim
Michael = Grandson of Elohim = Adam = God the Father

Jesus would be the only begotten son of Michael/Adam. This may explain the words of President Young made in 1862:

The Father frequently came to visit his son Adam, and talked and walked with him; and the children of Adam were more or less acquainted with their Grandfather, and their children were more or less acquainted with their Great-Grandfather . . ." (Journal of Discourses 9:148, 12 Jan. 1862).

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by sandman45 »

This clears up what Doug was saying about how we or all can become a christ..

because we cant..
“Every world has had an Adam, and an Eve: named so, simply because the first man is always called
Adam, and the first woman Eve, and the Oldest Son has always had the privilege of being Ordained,
Appointed and Called to be the Heir of the Family, if he does not rebel against the Father, and he is the
Saviour of the family. Every world that has been created, has been created upon the same principle. They
may vary in their varieties, yet the eternity is one; it is one eternal round.
These are things that scarcely belong to the best of this congregation. There are items of doctrine,
and principles, in the bosom of eternity that the best of the Latter-day Saints are unworthy to
receive. If the visions of their minds were open to look into the vast creations, and gaze upon the
Power, and Glory, and Goodness, and Exaltation of the Gods they would exclaim; ‘Wo is me, I am
undone, I am of unclean lips.’” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church
Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 93)

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Doug wrote: July 27th, 2017, 4:39 am "President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290
I found this early in this thread.

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by sandman45 »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 10th, 2017, 3:14 am
Doug wrote: July 27th, 2017, 4:39 am "President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290
I found this early in this thread.

thanks !

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

So are we to believe that neither Adam or Eve ever sinned once during their 900+ year sojourn on earth? Christ was only here for 30 years and did not sin one time. Shouldn't we get passed the "fall" and consider their whole lifetime? This is what I'm referring to.

It's a sad day to think that Jesus had to atone for the sins of his Father if Father was Michael/Adam.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

freedomforall wrote: August 10th, 2017, 2:07 pm So are we to believe that neither Adam or Eve ever sinned once during their 900+ year sojourn on earth? Christ was only here for 30 years and did not sin one time. Shouldn't we get passed the "fall" and consider their whole lifetime? This is what I'm referring to.

It's a sad day to think that Jesus had to atone for the sins of his Father if Father was Michael/Adam.
I don't understand what you are saying. Adam did not sin, he transgressed.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 10th, 2017, 2:45 pm
freedomforall wrote: August 10th, 2017, 2:07 pm So are we to believe that neither Adam or Eve ever sinned once during their 900+ year sojourn on earth? Christ was only here for 30 years and did not sin one time. Shouldn't we get passed the "fall" and consider their whole lifetime? This is what I'm referring to.

It's a sad day to think that Jesus had to atone for the sins of his Father if Father was Michael/Adam.
I don't understand what you are saying. Adam did not sin, he transgressed.
Did Adam and Eve die immediately after leaving the garden? Or did they continue on and have many babies?
It is implied that neither of them ever sinned, which is false, because fallen man does sin every once in a while. This would include Adam and Eve during their 900+ years on earth. They would have had to repent just like the rest of us, and depend on the atonement of Christ to save them just as much as we do. They had to have hope for a glorious resurrection just like we do. They were fallen and were no longer in the presence of the Lord on a daily basis.

Here is what we know:


Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

This would include Adam and Eve in their fallen state.

We have proof of men sinning because only eight people were saved upon Noah building an Ark.

Whereas Jesus never sinned, not once. If he had mankind could not be redeemed, they could not be resurrected and they would remain on earth until death to rise no more.

Thus Jesus had to atone for their sins as well as everyone else on earth from the its beginning to the end thereof.

Now if Adam were to have been God the Father as some suggest, Jesus would have had to atone for his very Father. And I don't think this is right, proper or plausible.

Therefore the phrase, Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect, would be void of any real power.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Transgress
1. to violate a law, command, moral code, etc.; offend; sin.

Sin
1. transgression of divine law:

Let's quit splitting hairs...Adam did sin by violating a command. But God does forgive if sincerely asked.

God forgave them, yet didn't let them back into the garden. Instead they went about tilling the soil, raising babies and feeling pain, fatigue and some sorrow all the rest of their days. They would have committed sin as well.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Doug wrote: July 28th, 2017, 11:43 pm I don't know how any testimony can be any clearer than these:
Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and
he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of
generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and
drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is
diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them,
according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for
their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will
become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea
that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you
at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if
I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD
6:274-275)
“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is
in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God
and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden,
he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his
wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is
MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have
written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with
whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to
tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the
estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However,
I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder
brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the
Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may
hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat
them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or
damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but
a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your
hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)
“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam;
when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother
Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church
Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)
“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do
without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God.
Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal
History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)
“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally
written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is
based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being
the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word
for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when
Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite
literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The
Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)
“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and
is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December
16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)
“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as
Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where
was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the
earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the
mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to
pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be!
Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass
him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of
the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys,
and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you
come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it
will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him
say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this
dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see
the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not
concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is
eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom
thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)
Again, I found this in the discussion. It makes it pretty clear that Adam is the Father of Jesus Christ.
Before the Atonement, Jesus said the Father was perfect but did not say he himself was.
After the Atonement he said that he and the Father are Perfect, so clearly the Atonement had no affect on the Father.
The Father, Adam, Transgressed in the Garden, yet he is perfect - so what ever it was, it was not sin.
And clearly, what ever it was, it was good because without it, man would not be.
How could this be made any clearer?

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