Mysteries of the Kingdom

[freedomforall]

Then you deny the need for modern revelations. Is this a statement or a question?
How are you going to be resurrected, It's not in the scriptures as to how to do it. Are you certain about this? Are you braced? Here we go!

John 11:43-44
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

It will be by the power of the Priesthood and strict, intent, personal righteousness needed to accomplish this very act when we are ready to do so. Some priesthood holders have already brought back a spouse after they died using this very power. I know of a first hand experience to this effect.

But then I guess Joseph and Brigham are not prophets, seers and revealators then,
or are they fallen and false prophets. This question is not even close to the real issue here. We are taught that not everything out of the mouth of a prophet is fact, truth, or a new prophesy. It is when they say, thus saith the Lord, they being an instrument in God's hands to bring forth a message directly from God. Show us one place where this new modern day doctrine was issued with such power, exactness and authenticity, enough power, exactness and authenticity as to cause it to become a part of canonized scripture.

Sorry, Modern Revelation trumps scripture anytime. What modern revelation? I thought Joseph Smith was the one we got all our four standard works through. So what modern revelation? And if you think God would teach one prophet one thing and another prophet an opposite or differing concept, please think again. God's word is the same today, yesterday and forever, so says God himself. It is unchanging or he would cease to be God, for he knows all things. It's in the book!
But in this case, they are in harmony, you just won't see it. Do you think I am that ignorant after having read scripture so many times? Come on!
Still denying the true messengers from The Father? This is an ambiguous question and a trick on someone's mind used to trip up someone. True messengers would say in essence "thus saith the Lord" as did several visitors to JS.

"First of all, the question will be posed: ‘How did Brother Brigham compare himself, as a
revelator, with his predecessor?’ There are two quotations that are of interest here. The second
President of the LDS Church said, “I wish to ask every member of this whole community if they
ever heard [me] profess to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator as Joseph Smith was. professed
to be an apostle of Jesus Christ.”43
In the second quote Brigham Young says that he “did not
receive [revelations] through the Urim and Thummim as Joseph [Smith] did.”44 Hence, it can be
ascertained that, at least in one sense, Brigham Young did not receive communications from
heaven in the same direct manner that Joseph Smith did. And it is relevant to mention here that
Brigham Young did, in fact, own a seerstone that was once utilized by Joseph Smith."


43. JD, 6:319, President Brigham Young, 7 April 1852, general conference address, Salt
Lake City, Utah, Tabernacle.
44. Salt Lake School of the Prophets Minute Book, 9 June 1873, LDS Church Archives,
Salt Lake City, Utah.
[/quote]

Show us canonized beliefs other than the four standard works, pleeeaaaase.

[freedomforall]

Doctrine and Covenants 63:49
49 Yea, and blessed are the dead that die in the Lord, from henceforth, when the Lord shall come, and old things shall pass away, and all things become new, they shall rise from the dead and shall not die after, and shall receive an inheritance before the Lord, in the holy city.

2 Cor. 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rev. 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

D&C 88:116
116 This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.

Isn't this just great news?

[Doug]

Where is the love good brothers? When elder packer walked out of the church office building to see a protestor with what some
In the church would consider offensive signs many watched to see what he might say. He responded to the protestor by saying in effect, "hey bob how's business today." They both laughed and the protestor replied, "not so good." He knew the man by name, you could tell that the love he had for him trumped his views, and It is in this spirit that I could see the man realistically accepting an invitation to have a genuine sit down conversation with Elder Packer. I'm willing to bet Elder Packer would approach that discussion differently than most who would try and cram down a bunch of quotes or scriptures (or worse) to get a point across. This experience is a good reminder to me of what will actually help someone turn to God in humility and petition the author of all truth and hope it will help as this post continues.

And just how would anyone be able to make a point without the use of scriptures or quotes? Isn't scripture the catalyst for all gospel discussion? Without scripture to teach us and edify us and help us to gain much needed light and knowledge, there would be no need for discussion based on facts and truth, for we would have none, right?
When it comes to interpretation of scripture, there are always differences of understanding and comprehension. However, there is a solution.

JST 2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scriptures is given of any private will of man.

So what does this tell us?

It tells us to pray, to be guided by the spirit, to teach correct principle based on what the spirit teaches us, so everyone can be on the same page all the time...until we are able to become one with Christ, to think like him, to act like him and to emulate his characteristics. There are way too many doctrines out there conflicting with one another and this is not Christ's plan, evidenced by the fact that none of this doctrine was ever canonized and sent forth for the entire body of the church to attach themselves to. This very issue is why Joseph Smith asked God which church he was to affiliate with in the first place. Which leads us right back to 2 Peter 1:20.

Now, as to why there is conflicting doctrine between what JS was supposed to have been teaching and what we have been taught for years and years is a complete turnover...and, frankly, a disheartening thing. It actually upsets me, greatly, even though my great great grand-pappy, WW, was in on the "new" doctrine push. At this stage, I refuse to pay heed to such doctrine as it has been claimed to be false, irrespective of how many people were supposed to believe in it. There is no solid evidence that any of it was taught by the Spirit of God, only spread as opinion and assumed it was taught by God...but because a "prophet" said something, it must be doctrine one can take to a bank, right?

This doctrine does not come from scripture as corroborated by the people trying to teach it, but this fact seems to escape any sensibility and truth. They can teach it on a private forum, or out on the street, but not one of them ever say they take it to church and teach it. Not one ever says they have taken it to the prophet for review, let alone being given any say so as to its authenticity. And we've expected to take their word for it. If we don't we get called names, made to look stupid, treated like a reprobate and just plain looked down on...because we stick to our knowledge and believe it. I even posted a post with capitol words so there would be no mistake as to what I believe, yet, it offended some individuals and I got a board warning out of it. Isn't this an infraction of my First amendment right of freedom of speech? I spoke truth as I saw it, no less than anyone else. Go figure! As pertaining to scripture, for those that will step on my knowledge of them, so be it, as they also have the right to disbelieve and speak their mind. But don't call me names and make innuendos and offer conjecture, or I will find the need to reciprocate in kind, having dealt with these types all my life, including this forum.
I already know just how much I will be missed by those opposing me, to any degree, when the time comes. Just as it takes but a fraction of a moment for milk to fill in a hole left behind upon a finger being quickly withdrawn, is the same amount of time I will be missed, and I'm okay with this because I'm not hear for popularity or praise, rather, to teach from scripture and help anyone wanting to know, just a portion of God's word so they can move forward. My role is to offer, their role is to accept or reject it, same as anything taught in church in a classroom environment. Only they don't have the pleasure of anonymity for protection OR being given the open space to criticize or spew venom at will when they reject with dislike and/or any animosity in their heart. Does anyone say their Gospel Doctrine Instructor is full of human excrement right there in class? Or that they're stupid? Or that they are dead wrong about a certain point made? Or that the JOD supersedes any other present day teachings? Well, you get the idea. The lack of love is due to too many voices combating each other while trying to be the loudest. Christ was humble, contrite, soft spoken, compassionate, sympathetic and teachable. We all could learn from this, right? Yet some people have to outshout the rest and it causes a problem, big time.

Now we have a clear understanding of your prejudice against this doctrine. But why persecute those without that prejudice.
If it is offensive to you, and clearly it is, why not just go away and leave it be? Why the the false witness and vitriol against me?
Is it your duty to stamp out this "new doctrine" as you call it? Under what authority?
You say that the Church has not embraced this doctrine, well the Church has not embraced your prejudice against it either.
I have appealed to you a number of times to leave us alone and I do again, let us worship how, where and what we may.
Let us discus in peace what we chose to without the persecutions of your prejudice. Please.

[Doug]

Doctrine and Covenants 63:49
49 Yea, and blessed are the dead that die in the Lord, from henceforth, when the Lord shall come, and old things shall pass away, and all things become new, they shall rise from the dead and shall not die after, and shall receive an inheritance before the Lord, in the holy city.

2 Cor. 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rev. 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

D&C 88:116
116 This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.

Isn't this just great news?

And NOTHING I have presented here is in opposition to this.
No Adam or Eve has ever died.

And, btw, the D&C comes from all these revelations that you reject, and none of it or any of the scriptures are preceded with "thus saith the Lord".

[freedomforall]

Is it your duty to stamp out this "new doctrine" as you call it? Under what authority?
You say that the Church has not embraced this doctrine, well the Church has not embraced your prejudice against it either. Is it found anywhere within our four standard works? Then I would say the church has embraced my view unequivocally, because my view comes right our of scripture instead of everything else other than canon.
I have appealed to you a number of times to leave us alone and I do again, let us worship how, where and what we may.
Let us discus in peace what we chose to without the persecutions of your prejudice. Please. Have I ever been this abrupt with you? Zionminded asked me some questions of which I answered if that's okay with you. Isn't this an open discussion or has the rules changed recently? If I receive no more direct questions, then have at it. Your position is well documented and your animosity very clear.
I wonder what the term canon means anyway. Modern revelation...just what is that? Can I ask my bishop or SP about this new modern doctrine, I mean, revelation...to see what they say about it? Is there going to be another offshoot from the Mormon church teaching this new revelation? After all, isn't this how so many other churches evolved, by cherry picking things said by church leaders and running with it?

However, here is a renowned BYU Professor on the topic of Adam_God:

BYU professor Stephen E. Robinson wrote:

Yet another way in which anti-Mormon critics often misrepresent LDS doctrine is in the presentation of anomalies as though they were the doctrine of the Church. Anomalies occur in every field of human endeavor, even in science. An anomaly is something unexpected that cannot be explained by the existing laws or theories, but which does not constitute evidence for changing the laws and theories. An anomaly is a glitch.... A classic example of an anomaly in the LDS tradition is the so-called "Adam-God theory." During the latter half of the nineteenth century Brigham Young made some remarks about the relationship between Adam and God that the Latter-day Saints have never been able to understand. The reported statements conflict with LDS teachings before and after Brigham Young, as well as with statements of President Young himself during the same period of time. So how do Latter-day Saints deal with the phenomenon? We don't; we simply set it aside. It is an anomaly. On occasion my colleagues and I at Brigham Young University have tried to figure out what Brigham Young might have actually said and what it might have meant, but the attempts have always failed. The reported statements simply do not compute—we cannot make sense out of them. This is not a matter of believing it or disbelieving it; we simply don't know what "it" is. If Brigham Young were here we could ask him what he actually said and what he meant by it, but he is not here.... For the Latter-day Saints, however, the point is moot, since whatever Brigham Young said, true or false, was never presented to the Church for a sustaining vote. It was not then and is not now a doctrine of the Church, and...the Church has merely set the phenomenon aside as an anomaly.

Also, see: LDS Scripture Teachings

[freedomforall]

No Adam or Eve has ever died.

And, btw, the D&C comes from all these revelations that you reject, and none of it or any of the scriptures are preceded with "thus saith the Lord".

Moses 4:25
25 By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I think it says here that they did die, or did God lie?

Moses 3:7
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

Ps. 104:29
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Gen. 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam and Eve both lived and died as spoken. I would think these scriptures would not exist if they otherwise were to go some place else and not die.

Section 1

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, on November 1, 1831, during a special conference of elders of the Church, held at Hiram, Ohio. Many revelations had been received from the Lord prior to this time, and the compilation of these for publication in book form was one of the principal subjects passed upon at the conference. This section constitutes the Lord’s preface to the doctrines, covenants, and commandments given in this dispensation.

1–7, The voice of warning is to all people; 8–16, Apostasy and wickedness precede the Second Coming; 17–23, Joseph Smith is called to restore to earth the Lord’s truths and powers; 24–33, The Book of Mormon is brought forth and the true Church is established; 34–36, Peace will be taken from the earth; 37–39, Search these commandments.

D&C 1
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet
1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high.

2
words of the angel Moroni to Joseph Smith the Prophet

3
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet

4
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet

5
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet
2 And now, behold, this shall you say unto him—he who spake unto you, said unto you: I, the Lord, am God, and have given these things unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and have commanded you that you should stand as a awitness of these things;

6
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet
2 Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow; therefore give heed unto my words.

7
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet

8
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet
1 Oliver Cowdery, verily, verily, I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which has been spoken by the manifestation of my Spirit.

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

9
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet
1 Behold, I say unto you, my son, that because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me, and did commence again to write for my servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., even so I would that ye should continue until you have finished this record, which I have entrusted unto him.

2 And then, behold, ather records have I, that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate.

3 Be patient, my son, for it is wisdom in me, and it is not expedient that you should translate at this present time.

10
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet

And this is only the first ten. I did say "in essence" did I not? Someone correct me if I didn't.

[Doug]

So, after the above, if there any still here and interested in this doctrine,
Here are some key scriptures to read.
Jeremiah 18
D&C 93
D&C 76
D&C 88
Ether 3
Matthew 5:48 vs 3 Nephi 12:48
D&C 93:38 vs Ether 3:14
2 Nephi 2
Alma 34
There have been others mentioned earlier on this thread.
Search them, there are some amazing jewels to be found
but you must search with a purpose and with the spirit.

However, the prophets of the restoration have reveled
these things in much plainer language and in much greater
details, So if you have no aversions to hearing the words
of true messengers from our Father, try Journal of Discourses,
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith's Teachings,
Wilford Woodruff Diary, etc.
Or you can find the teachings of these and more prophets
compiled together in the book mentioned earlier.

Yeah, actually it is found in the scriptures.
And the "new doctrine" is very old doctrine just expounded upon by modern prophets. even current day prophets.

Neal A. Maxwell
“Just as we can move, step by step, from faith to knowledge, so in particular dimensions of living, such as in justice or honesty, some mortals have merited the accolades of prophets ‘in that thing.’ Significantly, when such spiritually advanced individuals were described as perfect, often their ‘justness’ was the virtue cited. Little wonder justice is so stressed, in view of this verse: ‘He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?’ It is clear too that being just not only consists of fair play with one's associates and neighbors, but also reflects largeness of soul. In this broadened sense, ‘there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.’ Jesus Himself did not receive ‘of the fullness at first,’ but continued ‘from grace to grace, until he received a fullness.’ His progress was incomprehensibly more rapid than ours, but the pathway is the same; so can be the pattern of ‘grace to grace’: ‘For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom.’” (Neal A. Maxwell, Even As I Am [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1982], pg. 15)
“Whether as a spirit son or a spirit daughter of our Heavenly Father, each of us was sent here from our first estate to undergo this joyful yet stressful mortal second estate. Being the literal, premortal spirit children of the Father, each of us can, by going from grace to grace, eventually receive of the fulness of the Father, as did Jesus (see D&C 93:20).” (Neal A. Maxwell, A Wonderful Flood of Light [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1990], 36)

Dallan H. Oaks
“Perfect worship is emulation. We honor those whom we imitate. The most perfect way of worship is to be holy as Jehovah is holy. It is to be pure as Christ is pure. It is to do the things that enable us to become like the Father. The course is one of obedience, of living by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God, of keeping the commandments. How do we worship the Lord? We do it by going from grace to grace, until we receive the fulness of the Father and are glorified in light and truth as is the case with our Pattern and Prototype, the Promised Messiah. In the remarkable revelation known as section 93 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord revealed a portion of the truths recorded in the record of John. The Lord explained that he gave this knowledge to his children in this dispensation ‘that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship’ (D&C 93:19). John recorded the premortal existence of Christ, his role in the creation, his mortal ministry, and his continuing ‘from grace to grace, until he received a fulness’ (D&C 93:13).

Infact, a lot of the early christian writings that did not become part of the bible
included this doctrine.

So, in reality, it IS embraced by the Church!

But even so, who commissioned your campaign against it and me?

[Doug]

No Adam or Eve has ever died.

And, btw, the D&C comes from all these revelations that you reject, and none of it or any of the scriptures are preceded with "thus saith the Lord".

Moses 4:25
25 By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I think it says here that they did die, or did God lie?

Moses 3:7
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

Ps. 104:29
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Gen. 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam and Eve both lived and died as spoken. I would think these scriptures would not exist if they otherwise were to go some place else and not die.

First you condemn me for saying that they will die, which I did not.
Now you condemn me for saying that they will not die saying that the scriptures say they will.
You do not even understand that which you argue for let alone what you argue against.

So, who commissioned you to stamp out this doctrine?

[freedomforall]

So, who commissioned you to stamp out this doctrine?

It's a need to know basis, and you don't need to know. But since you posted scriptures, you tell us what they mean. My backside is still burning and my ears hurt from all the incoming badmouthing.

The ball is in your court, you're telling the story, so have at it.

[freedomforall]

First you condemn me for saying that they will die, which I did not.
Now you condemn me for saying that they will not die saying that the scriptures say they will.
You do not even understand that which you argue for let alone what you argue against.

So, who commissioned you to stamp out this doctrine?

I didn't condemn you, so cut out the lying. If I were to condemn you, you wouldn't be able to not understand it. Clear.
If you want me to, I can, but I don't think Brian would approve of it, do you?

[Doug]

So, who commissioned you to stamp out this doctrine?

It's a need to know basis, and you don't need to know. But since you posted scriptures, you tell us what they mean. My backside is still burning and my ears hurt from all the incoming badmouthing.

The ball is in your court, you're telling the story, so have at it.

It is your mouth that is burning.

I have no obligation to you.
And I have no desire to explain anything to you after the way you have treated me here.

However, to someone that asks. honestly seeking to understand, I would be delighted to help.
Are you such a person, your history says otherwise.
Have you repented and changed your ways or are you just seeking to lay more traps?

I will help you but you must put forth an effort first, isn't that what the scriptures say,
do your homework first, then ask.

[freedomforall]

At this point, I will leave you to your imagination and I'll enter your name on my ignore list. The heat in the kitchen is getting hotter than supposed when talking to a over heated, sizzling griddle. Ever felt that way before? Everything I say is thrown onto the hot surface to merely splatter back upon me. So I'll turn the heat down so the kitchen can cool off some. And if the griddle keeps heating up beyond its capabilities, then it will blow a gasket. So there we have it. Have a fun discussion with ?

Update>>>Done.

[freedomforall]

Did you say something? Sorry, my hearing aid is turned way down.

[Doug]

First you condemn me for saying that they will die, which I did not.
Now you condemn me for saying that they will not die saying that the scriptures say they will.
You do not even understand that which you argue for let alone what you argue against.

So, who commissioned you to stamp out this doctrine?

I didn't condemn you, so cut out the lying. If I were to condemn you, you wouldn't be able to not understand it. Clear.
If you want me to, I can, but I don't think Brian would approve of it, do you?

Go ahead, hit me with your best shot.
Your whole attitude has been one of condemnation.

Al made perfectly clear by "Postby freedomforall » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:45 pm "
You condemn the doctrine and anyone that does not condemn it as you do.

Remember this

The ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE IS FALSE. NO ARGUMENT NEEDED. NO BAITING REQUIRED. NO AMOUNT OF INSULTS CAN OR WILL CHANGE MY TESTIMONY. PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK BAD. YOUR TACTICS ARE THE VERY SAME AS THE PREVIOUS POSTERS COMING HERE TO START A CONFLICT. FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF AND OF A FUNDAMENTALIST POINT OF VIEW. AND, APPARENTLY YOU LACK ENOUGH RESPECT FOR MY POSITION OF HAVING ENOUGH OF THIS TOPIC THAT NOW I FIGURE YOU ARE ONLY HERE TO GET FOLLOWERS, NOT TO ACTUALLY HEAR ARGUMENTS OF DIFFERENCE, FOR YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF CHANGING YOUR MIND WHATSOEVER, RATHER TO JAM JS AND BY DOWN OUR THROATS, ALL THE WHILE LETTING SCRIPTURE GATHER DUST ON YOUR SHELF.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW MY ARGUMENTS, SEARCH THE FORUM. THERE ARE PLENTY. I HAVE NO INCLINATION OF REPEATING MYSELF EVERY TIME A NEW GUY COMES ALONG.

blatent condemnation.

I need say no more, your own actions make it clear.

[freedomforall]

Goes back to the ol cake analogy. You've probably heard the story when the volunteer brings out a cake and smashes it with his hands and then offers it to the congregation. No one wants it. He then serves up a nice clean slice and asks, and everyone wants it. The cake tastes good in both examples but it is the DELIVERY, that counts and allows what tastes good the opportunity to be tasted by others.

I think everyone here should keep citing scriptures and quotes but maybe work on the delivery. Just food for thought.

I think there is still room in this discussion for openness and love.

Great analogy. Just one question. Why am I hungry all of a sudden?

Taking in food with little to no substance has a way of doing that. Strange how that works, right?

[freedomforall]

Did I forget to say goodbye? Oh, I'm sorry. Good bye!

A new conversation should crop up here any minute, just have patience, please.

[Doug]

At this point, I will leave you to your imagination and I'll enter your name on my ignore list. The heat in the kitchen is getting hotter than supposed when talking to a over heated, sizzling griddle. Ever felt that way before? Everything I say is thrown onto the hot surface to merely splatter back upon me. So I'll turn the heat down so the kitchen can cool off some. And if the griddle keeps heating up beyond its capabilities, then it will blow a gasket. So there we have it. Have a fun discussion with ?

Update>>>Done.

Is this a promise, have you finally done what I have asked, gone away.
Oh, btw, when I click on your "GUESS WHO" link in your signature, I get a 404 error, fitting.

But I think the damage left in your wake is probably fatal to this topic.
So sad that this has been allowed to go on.

I am sure that there are hard feelings against me as well by those lurking on this topic, if any.
But there are times when we must stand up to bullying.

I know this is true doctrine and if anyone still wants to discuss it, I'm here.

[zionbuilder]

Freedomforall, somehow my quote button didn't work. All the writing in my post that was black, quoted Doug. The pink was quoting of another source I had read, where Brigham had said he never claimed to be a prophet, seer and revelator as Joseph was.

Doug your claim makes it sound as if they were on the same standing, whereas Brigham himself never said that he was. That was my point.

Freedomforall, i think it's good you left the conversation, it seems you were letting it get you worked up and it's not worth it to do that to your self. Sincerely.

[Doug]

Freedomforall, somehow my quote button didn't work. All the writing in my post that was black, quoted Doug. The pink was quoting of another source I had read, where Brigham had said he never claimed to be a prophet, seer and revelator as Joseph was.

Doug your claim makes it sound as if they were on the same standing, whereas Brigham himself never said that he was. That was my point.

Freedomforall, i think it's good you left the conversation, it seems you were letting it get you worked up and it's not worth it to do that to your self. Sincerely.

No one is the prophet, seer, and revelator that Joseph is, he is second only unto Christ. That is Brigham's point.
However, Brigham is a prophet, seer, and revelator in and of himself.

He was the Lords mouthpiece on the earth for many, many, many years.
He had stewardship over the church and was the only one authorized to
receive revelations for the church.

So all his testimonies on this doctrine stand as true messages from true messengers from the Father.

[shadow]

No Adam or Eve has ever died.

And, btw, the D&C comes from all these revelations that you reject, and none of it or any of the scriptures are preceded with "thus saith the Lord".

Moses 4:25
25 By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I think it says here that they did die, or did God lie?

Moses 3:7
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

Ps. 104:29
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Gen. 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam and Eve both lived and died as spoken. I would think these scriptures would not exist if they otherwise were to go some place else and not die.

First you condemn me for saying that they will die, which I did not.
Now you condemn me for saying that they will not die saying that the scriptures say they will.
You do not even understand that which you argue for let alone what you argue against.

So, who commissioned you to stamp out this doctrine?

I think the main point is that you claim Adam and Eve didn't die and yet the scriptures say they shalt surely die.

[Doug]

Does Moses leave no room for modern enlightenment of the scriptures.

Moses rewrote the first books of the old testament, taking out many plain and precious truths because of unbelief.
Brigham Young talks of "Hollow Toad Stool" stories. We would call them "Storke Stories".
We are told things that are true "in their sphere".

If you study the whole doctrine, you will come to undersand some of those things.

The answer here is that there is/was an if, if ... you will die.
I know you are going to reject this explanation, ok.
I have said from very early, if you have not accepted this doctrine, move on.
My goal here was to discus with those who have accepted it not to convert those who have not.

[Doug]

You probably think I'm a jerk for saying "move on". But I actually say it out of empathy.

We are told about "eternity", that it has no beginning and no end. It's hard to comprehend and accept.
But as hard as it is to accept that it has no beginning, it's even harder to accept that it will have an end.
The alternative to eternity is far worse than eternity.

In some way, this doctrine is the same. There are many things in it that are difficult to overcome,
only some of which have been aired on this forum.
But the alternative is just incomprehensible.
What is the alternative.
Well, this doctrine says that there is only one way to become a God and that way is the way Christ has shown.

The alternative is that there is not just one way, there are at least two, one for Christ and one for us.
Think about that for a while, that is stunning. And when you add to that what the King Follett Discourse says,
The Father was the Savior of his world, mind numbing.

So, I accepted this doctrine, but it has been anything but easy. very difficult to release old perceptions
and to accept new ways to see old things. Not easy indeed, and I have much empathy for those struggling
with these things, I've been there, I've done that. And will your life be much different if you accept it
than if you don't? I can't say that, while I have things to be very grateful for because of this doctrine,
my life is essentially the same. But I am not. The struggles I've gone through because of this doctrine
have changed me, something I will take with me in the next life.

Not everyone is ready for that, I was, I asked for it, although I didn't know what I asked for, I got it
and I paid a price for it. And I'd do it again, I wish I had done it earlier in life. I wish I had done it
30 years ago when a friend sat in my living room and introduced me to Adam-God. And I am still
paying a price for it, there are so many "warm" discussions in HP & SS i would have wished to
participate in are now just mote. And so many controversial questions, that with a different view
just arent't even interesting. (like multiple seelings)

So unless you hunger and thirst, I say with empathy "Move on".



So, I say again, If you are seeking, I will help all I can. But if you just can't accept it, OK, then just leave it alone.

So, am I speaking into the empty night?

[Doug]

D&C 76
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, ...

So, it seems as though the scriptures actually do say that death is a possibility for gods!!!!
Isn't that interesting?

[shadow]

Does Moses leave no room for modern enlightenment of the scriptures.

Moses rewrote the first books of the old testament, taking out many plain and precious truths because of unbelief.
Brigham Young talks of "Hollow Toad Stool" stories. We would call them "Storke Stories".
We are told things that are true "in their sphere".

If you study the whole doctrine, you will come to undersand some of those things.

The answer here is that there is/was an if, if ... you will die.
I know you are going to reject this explanation, ok.
I have said from very early, if you have not accepted this doctrine, move on.
My goal here was to discus with those who have accepted it not to convert those who have not.

Section 138 claims Adam and Eve were among the spirits waiting for a glorious Resurrection. Again, meaning their physical bodies passed away and their spirits were left as spirits. The BoM teaches once resurrected, the body and spirit will NOT separate again.

[freedomforall]

Freedomforall, somehow my quote button didn't work. All the writing in my post that was black, quoted Doug. The pink was quoting of another source I had read, where Brigham had said he never claimed to be a prophet, seer and revelator as Joseph was.

Doug your claim makes it sound as if they were on the same standing, whereas Brigham himself never said that he was. That was my point.

Freedomforall, i think it's good you left the conversation, it seems you were letting it get you worked up and it's not worth it to do that to your self. Sincerely.

Yes, I get worked up, and rightfully so. The way I see things, and I could be a little too intense, he can't remember his own statements that contradict each other, twists words and meanings around and puts words in my mouth and then claims I said them. He also makes untruthful claims that I am condemning him. Therefore, he is the one taking things too personal. I had finally got fed up and posted a paragraph with all capitols and got a board warning for it because of my own beliefs. When has he ever admitted that there are others here that do not like what he is teaching either and will go after them in similar fashion, as he does me, because of their rejections? Yes, I get worked up.

Ever heard of philosophies of men, mingled with scripture? Nuff said.

I did, however, find out that the Adam God doctrine is nothing more than an anomaly because the facts of it and the true beliefs behind Brigham Young have never been established. Therefore, the teaching of it as fact and accurate is unequivocally in error and has no real basis. This corroborates my view very nicely.

I do, however, respect your view of this issue and appreciate your statement. I would continue with a civil conversation and try to answer questions, but I will not remove his name off my ignore list, so as to not further any cause for contention on my part.