Mysteries of the Kingdom

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freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

The Father of this world is Jehovah/Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father.

Moses 1:32-34
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

Moses 1:6
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

1 Cor. 15:45 (45–48)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

2 Ne. 2:20 (19–20)
19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

Now compare the next verse with Moses 1:34:

Moses 4:26
26 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many.

God says he created worlds without number and the first man of all he named Adam. Likewise, the first woman of all is Eve. Adam and Eve are the Mother and Father of all mankind and those on other worlds, which are many, as declared here.

What do you say, Alaris? Am I way out in the backfield on this? Please ponder these verses and see.
Last edited by freedomforall on August 23rd, 2017, 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

alaris wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 11:36 pm
freedomforall wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 11:20 pm
alaris wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 4:27 pmThere are plenty of canonized scriptures that teach us to look beyond the canonized scriptures.
Please provide some most precise scriptural examples. When I make claims I provide sources, or at least try to. It helps everyone get one's point better. Thanks.
I'd be happy to.
1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
Matthew 7:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
D&C 9:7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
D&C 91:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;
2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.
3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.
4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;
5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;
Moses 7:63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.
Certainly the scriptures don't list out what all these things are - we must discover them.
Alma 30:44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.
The planets all bear witness of the Supreme Creator - their deep symbols are mysteries that must be discovered. John Pratt does excellent work attempting to decipher these deep symbols that bear record of not only the supreme creator but his plan and works.

Here are some more from our dispensation head:
Joseph Smith:
"The things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out."
"There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen."

"When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by the weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief."
In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected- ... ing-church
Certainly that last quote should be considered by many here who try to shut people down with whom they disagree.
D&C 88: 118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.
Thanks for the reminder. Good scriptures. I get brain-gas sometimes.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

freedomforall wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 11:12 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 9:44 pmI am in awe!
Except that scripture teaches us that our mortal body and spirit once reunited by the resurrection will never again be divided. We will not take upon ourselves another body of any kind.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:17
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

This is not easy to explain away.
It does not have to be "explained away". As with most mis-undestandings, it just needs further light and knowledge.

If you do not attain to Celestial Glory in this life, do you actually expect to resurrected to a Perfected Celestialized Immortal Physical Body as was Christ. And to which Body was he resurrected, was it not the same body he laid down. So how could you believe that Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial Resurrection are the same? They are not. Only the resurrection that Christ went through has the properties you claim. Christ laid down a body Sired by a Perfected Celestial Being and born my a mortal Mother. Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - the only way you will be a Father is the same way I did. The only way you will ever take up an Immortal Physical Body is to take up the one you laid one down. Telestial and Terestrial resurrection are not the same thing. That is what Alma and Amulek were trying to tell us.

As for Christ being the Father of this world, Doug presented 7 unambiguous statements that Adam is the Father and Christ is the Son. And you have presented one scripture that with even the most biased interpretation is ambiguous. The 7 provide further light and knowledge to the true meaning of the 1, if you chose to see it.

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 12:50 am
freedomforall wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 11:12 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 9:44 pmI am in awe!
Except that scripture teaches us that our mortal body and spirit once reunited by the resurrection will never again be divided. We will not take upon ourselves another body of any kind.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:17
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

This is not easy to explain away.
It does not have to be "explained away". As with most mis-undestandings, it just needs further light and knowledge. Is it proper to analyze this info to death?

If you do not attain to Celestial Glory in this life, do you actually expect to resurrected to a Perfected Celestialized Immortal Physical Body as was Christ. No! And to which Body was he resurrected, was it not the same body he laid down. Yes! So how could you believe that Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial Resurrection are the same? I don't! They are not. I never said they are. Only the resurrection that Christ went through has the properties you claim. We can to if desired enough and lived. Christ laid down a body Sired by a Perfected Celestial Being and born my a mortal Mother. True. Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." True, but not as explained as you do. He is our mediator and advocate with the Father; we can only follow his example of being baptized and doing as he did in life, that is to live righteously, and live by his example the best we can. - the only way you will be a Father is the same way I did. The only way you will ever take up an Immortal Physical Body is to take up the one you laid one down. True as explained in Alma 40-42. Telestial and Terestrial resurrection are not the same thing. True. That is what Alma and Amulek were trying to tell us. What was said is that there is a space between death and resurrection, the good go to paradise, the bad to spirit prison to await the resurrection. Then according to the condition of man's soul, whether good or bad, is when they are assigned a kingdom based on their works. Celestial to Celestial, Terrestrial to terrestrial and Telestial to Telestial . We can only receive that which we desired and lived, no more, ie, doing away with the natural man and becoming clean, Holy and without spot (Moroni 10:32,33)...or doing evil all our days. A telestial being would be utterly miserable in the celestial world. We cannot receive any more than the nature of the creature at death. SEE: Alma 40-42

As for Christ being the Father of this world, Doug presented 7 unambiguous statements that Adam is the Father and Christ is the Son. And you have presented one scripture that with even the most biased interpretation is ambiguous. The 7 provide further light and knowledge to the true meaning of the 1, if you chose to see it.
Just what does "not to be ever divided again" mean? How ambiguous is the meaning of it? Come on, do you really think we're that ignorant? Ambiguity comes about because of rejecting the true meaning of scripture and placing trust in those that cannot understand them either.
Try reading these scriptures word for word and then tell me they say other than what is read. There is absolutely no ambiguity to be found, period.

D&C 76 tells us exactly who goes to each kingdom and why. Again, no ambiguity whatsoever, if read for what they are and how.
Read also Alma chaps 40-42 and find out what the restoration of the body entails. No ambiguity there either. One needs to read and ponder them for what they are, not putting meanings and connotations in them that do not exist.
Please, please do not insult the intelligence of others.
It is a fact that the Adam-God doctrine is nothing more than an anomaly, a host of ambiguous statements not proven to be absolutely true, meaning that no one knows what Joseph Smith truly was teaching. But I also know that many in that day rejected that doctrine as well.

It would take a whole lot more information and confirmation before I would believe that doctrine, no matter who taught it. It insults the very nature of canon.

BTW, what did Alma and Amulek really tell us? Give me some unambiguous verses to work with, okay?

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

freedomforall wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 1:45 am Just what does "not to be ever divided again" mean? How ambiguous is the meaning of it? Come on, do you really think we're that ignorant? Ambiguity comes about because of rejecting the true meaning of scripture and placing trust in those that cannot understand them either.
Try reading these scriptures word for word and then tell me they say other than what is read. There is absolutely no ambiguity to be found, period.

D&C 76 tells us exactly who goes to each kingdom and why. Again, no ambiguity whatsoever, if read for what they are and how.
Read also Alma chaps 40-42 and find out what the restoration of the body entails. No ambiguity there either. One needs to read and ponder them for what they are, not putting meanings and connotations in them that do not exist.
Please, please do not insult the intelligence of others.
It is a fact that the Adam-God doctrine is nothing more than an anomaly, a host of ambiguous statements not proven to be absolutely true, meaning that no one knows what Joseph Smith truly was teaching. But I also know that many in that day rejected that doctrine as well.

It would take a whole lot more information and confirmation before I would believe that doctrine, no matter who taught it. It insults the very nature of canon.

BTW, what did Alma and Amulek really tell us? Give me some unambiguous verses to work with, okay?
Nowhere does the Doctrine of Eternal Lives say that those who receive Celestial Resurrection ever die or are divided so I don't know what you are arguing against.

But your argument does raise a question, is there a path to Immortality different for some than others? A path for Christs and Adams and a different path for ?????. There is only one path
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Jesus is not a way, he is the way.

As to Adam is God
Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?
You are correct, Bro. Brigham confirms you are correct that many in his day rejected it, and you join them in your unbelief. It was eventually accepted by ALL the Quorum of the 12. However, this is not ambiguous, and published in a public newspaper! So we, except the unbelievers, do know exactly what was taught.

As per you last question, no. Alma and Amulek are purposely ambiguous on this topic because it is left to the Prophet of The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times to shed more light and truth on that issues. He, Bro. Joseph, revealed this and more to Bro. Brigham, who then revealed it to the Church. The resurrection Telestial and Terestrial are what D&C 93:38, Enoch 3:14, and John 3:3 refer to, the redemption and born again.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Let's examine this in some detail;
Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873
Publicly verifiable
How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine,
Yeah, clearly some don't believe it
which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to
What ever Joseph played in this is mote, Brigham got it from God
me-namely that Adam is our father and God...
Adam is God the Father
Our Father Adam helped to make this earth,
One of those involved in the creation of this earth
it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here.
created for Adam and his posterity
He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth.
a Woman was necessary due to the nature of "birth"
Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation
God the Father, Adam, holds the the keys to resurrection, Celestial (take up again a perfect body), Terestrial, and Telestial ( redeemtion, spiritual birth and mortal birth)
to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth...
including his Only begotten in the (immortal) flesh(on this earth), the Savior of this world.
"well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker.
All Fathers are called Adam and all mothers are called Eve
He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here.
D&C 93:38
I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation.
The Father worked out his Salvation the same way we are doing it
I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end.
And I succeeded and My Sons, Saviors of Worlds are increasing my accomplishments
I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has,
And I want you to do exactly as I have done
and where is the mystery?
No mystery here, it is revealed. And simply explained, no ambiguity.

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Alaris
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Alaris »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 9:02 am
me-namely that Adam is our father and God...
Adam is God the Father
That's not what he said and is a twist on the words. Adam is our father because he's the father of all the living. He's also our God because he presides over this world. Jehovah's dominion is worlds.
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 9:02 am
Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation
God the Father, Adam, holds the the keys to resurrection, Celestial (take up again a perfect body), Terestrial, and Telestial ( redeemtion, spiritual birth and mortal birth)
Another twist. Our Father Adam does not equal God the Father, Adam. If that's what Brigham Young was teaching he would have said it like that.
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 9:02 am
to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth...
including his Only begotten in the (immortal) flesh(on this earth), the Savior of this world.
Again you have to insert the idea that Jesus was the Only Begotten of Adam. If that were true, again BY would have added that in there and not waited for you to do it for him.
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 9:02 am
I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has,
Now this sounds like it's referring to us, but it's future tense.
And I want you to do exactly as I have done
Totally agreed on that. We must be Adams before we are Only Begotten sons.

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Alaris
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Alaris »

Here is what I posted way back on page 2 of this thread that was never addressed by Doug or Hiddingbehindsomething
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Yahweh - The Great I AM. That's a big one, but I hope I have and will give you many evidences you haven't considered. Here's another: From the Old Testament to the Doctrine and Covenants, Michael is referred to as the chief prince - the chief archangel.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
D&C 27:11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days
D&C 78:6 Who hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life.
so Michael is under the counsel and direction of the Holy One. Who is the Holy One?
1 Nephi 19:13 And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.
14 And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations.
Who is the God of Israel? JEHOVAH

Michael is the seventh angel:
D&C 88:110 And so on, until the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.
111 And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.
112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.
So all over the place we have Michael being named chief prince, archangel, over and over. He's even detailed as being subordinate to the Holy One.

Jesus is the King who rode a donkey
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an @#$, and upon a colt the foal of an @#$.
This one ties in the Holy One of Israel who we know is Jesus (see 1 Nephi 19) and the King title:
Psalm 89:18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
The King is the Lord of hosts:
Isaiah 6:5 ¶ Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
Here is the title written upon Jesus Christ at His second coming:
Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
In case there is any doubt as to who the king is:
D&C 45: 52 Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.
53 And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king.
54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.
55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.
56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.
59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.
All the Michael / Adam references are prince. Jesus is the King. The King of Kings. What are princes but heirs to kingships? Jesus is above Michael. Pray with sincerity and you will have it confirmed to you my friend.
Moreover, angel means "sent" - God The Father is not sent he sends therefore Michael would never be named as an angel in scriptures revealed to Joseph Smith. This may make fundamentalists twitch but Joseph Smith > Brigham Young. BY was a great leader and prophet, but Joseph Smith didn't designate Brigham Young to make new revelations that conflicted with already revealed truth so that men could justify their continuance of polygamy outside the church that holds the temples and the keys to the higher ordinances. He certainly didn't teach Adam was the Father to justify ostracizing teenage boys so that the older men could lay claim to the teenage girls!

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Alaris
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Alaris »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 18th, 2017, 5:28 pm
D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
So, we've already been redeemed by God the Father (it wasn't Christ, he is our brother and was redeemed with us)
God having redeemed man. So the God who redeems .. may we call him "Redeemer?"
Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
That one settles both who is the Redeemer and to whom Michael is subordinate (see prior post.)
Isaiah 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Luke 1: 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
2 Nephi 2:6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
Here is a fairly overt scripture on the identity of the redeemer:
Helaman 5:12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.
D&C 19:1 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world.
Wow that is even more overt.
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 18th, 2017, 5:28 pm And we will be redeemed again by Christ. As the Son, he will redeem us thus becoming our Father, The Father of the next Eternal Round.
I half agree with you there. Christ is the Father of the next Eternal Round. However He will give the rights of redemption to His Only Begotten Son. His Only Begotten will then say, "I only do the works I saw my father do." The Father presides while the Son saves. The Fathers of worlds - or the Adams - are a microcosm of heavenly fatherhood, not actual heavenly fatherhood. Elohim, Jehovah, Michael in the temple.
D&C 110:2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
So Joseph Smith sees the Lord who identifies himself as the first and the last (see D&C 19:1) and Joseph Smith names His voice the voice of Jehovah who says He's the first and the last - he who liveth - he who was slain - the advocate with the Father.

It is Jehovah, Jesus Christ who redeems us to bring us back to the presence of the Father to be chosen to continue at a greater capacity for the next round. John 17 is the prayer of Jesus to the Father regarding these souls who the father "gave" to Jesus Christ. How did the Father give these noble souls? He did so by ransoming them in the prior eternal round--purchasing their right to continue with his eternal sacrifice.

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by sandman45 »

Here is an explanation that I had found. Makes sense to me.. plain engrish.. i mean english.
Notice that it says His voice was AS “the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah,” indicating that His voice had the powerful sound of rushing water and the sound of Jehovah–not that it was the actual voice of water or of Jehovah. Ogden Kraut (Mysteries of Creation: http://ogdenkraut.com/?page_id=157)

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Alaris
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Alaris »

sandman45 wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 3:17 pm Here is an explanation that I had found. Makes sense to me.. plain engrish.. i mean english.
Notice that it says His voice was AS “the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah,” indicating that His voice had the powerful sound of rushing water and the sound of Jehovah–not that it was the actual voice of water or of Jehovah. Ogden Kraut (Mysteries of Creation: http://ogdenkraut.com/?page_id=157)
I hear you, and I get the concept of layers of knowledge that are unveiled, yet I disagree that the "as" also applies to Jehovah. "As" only applies to the simile "as the sound of the rushing waters."

"his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah"

So based off what you are saying then the proper English would be :

"his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even "as" the voice of Jehovah"
---
Edit: This idea could also be conveyed with an "and" to join simile to the rest of the sentence, i.e.

"his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters "and" even " the voice of Jehovah"

Except there is no "and" and there is no second "as"
---
The problem with that is there's no point of reference to what Jehovah sounds like as there is a common point of reference to what the sound of rushing of great waters sounds like. "even the voice of Jehovah" is clear that the simile is over and that it IS Jehovah's voice.

That plus everything else I said above - it's crystal clear that Jesus Christ is Jehovah. Adam God believers - all due respect - have to divorce this identity from Jesus to make Adam God "doctrine" make sense. Jehovah is the first and the last. Jesus is the first and the last. "The" and "A" are two different words as HidingbehindDoug made clear earlier. Jehovah is the redeemer. Jesus is the redeemer. Jesus said, "Before Abraham Was I am"

Compare these two scriptures:
D&C 19:1 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world.
D&C 110:2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
D&C 102:3 is not a typo. It is the voice of Jehovah.

Plus there is a preponderance of evidence (see above) that Michael is subordinate to not just Jehovah but to Jesus Christ - so even if Jehovah and Jesus were separate individuals - they are not - then this Adam God "doctrine" falls apart. The fact Michael is subordinate to both is further testament to the fact they are one and the same individual.

Sandman45 - I like you and appreciate your respectful tone when discussing these sacred topics. I invite you to read my blog where I discuss the seven levels of mankind. The seventh level is the level of archangel over which Michael presides. The eighth level - is the level of Jesus Christ. This model strongly reinforces the truth that Jesus Christ is above Michael in hierarchy and there are many scriptures and symbols that reflect these great truths.

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by sandman45 »

yea I've seen your post on the angels and stuff. Interesting.

If you look at what we have discussed here like this,

Elohim, Jehovah, Michael = Creation Godhead

Michael, Christ, HG = this earths Godhead

and in other words.. Grandfather, Father, Son, Grandson, GreatGrandson....

Then it makes more sense I think. There were a bunch of posts here explaining that in more detail.

Remember the King Follet Discourse and the countless numbers of Gods already enthroned... all part of a family.

the scriptures given to us apply i would say mostly to This earth and the children of Adam and Eve. (see Moses in POGP)

so things revealed in the temple may be trying to teach us the more eternal aspect of where our family comes from and where we can hope to be one day.

anyway thanks for the comments its fun discussing things and it surprises me that people are so against what Joseph and Brigham and early members of the Q of 12 taught. I mean it all changed quite a bit once we decided to let Babylon rule us.

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Alaris
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Alaris »

sandman45 wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 5:11 pm yea I've seen your post on the angels and stuff. Interesting.

If you look at what we have discussed here like this,

Elohim, Jehovah, Michael = Creation Godhead

Michael, Christ, HG = this earths Godhead

and in other words.. Grandfather, Father, Son, Grandson, GreatGrandson....

Then it makes more sense I think. There were a bunch of posts here explaining that in more detail.

Remember the King Follet Discourse and the countless numbers of Gods already enthroned... all part of a family.

the scriptures given to us apply i would say mostly to This earth and the children of Adam and Eve. (see Moses in POGP)

so things revealed in the temple may be trying to teach us the more eternal aspect of where our family comes from and where we can hope to be one day.

anyway thanks for the comments its fun discussing things and it surprises me that people are so against what Joseph and Brigham and early members of the Q of 12 taught. I mean it all changed quite a bit once we decided to let Babylon rule us.
I agree with you on everything except the identity of the "Son" in this earth's godhead. The foundation for this is all in my blog, but it's not

Elohim, Jehovah / Jesus Christ, Michael

Michael, Davidic Servant, The Church (Mosiah 18 baptismal covenants are the roles of the holy ghost.)

Levels:

9 Elohim, 8 Jehovah / Jesus Christ, 7 michael

7 Michael, 6 Davidic Servant (who is ascending to 7), 5 The Church (who also ascends to 6 for those who overcome.

So the Davidic Servant is the head of the order of 144,000 who have the seal of the Father written in their heads. This scripture is the sixth use of overcometh:
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
The seal is in their forehead because it symbolizes a promise to unseal upon overcoming level 6 and joining the princely level of 7 which is what the DS will be doing on 9/23 - the sign of the woman birthing a man child into the holy order of princes of peace. She represents heavenly mother birthing a new son to the father as he returns to the presence of the father to go no more out. The Father's identity has not been revealed to the lesser orders until they overcome 6 and join the dispensation heads - all of whom see and converse with the father.

I really need to write another article on this but the Davidic Servant is the temporal messiah that the Jews were looking for. They weren't wrong about a temporal messiah and about Him not being him.
Last edited by Alaris on August 24th, 2017, 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and
is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December
16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)
How can anyone continue to argue that Adam is subordinate to Christ, one needs to ignore
plain and simple testimony to do that.
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible… The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me... What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’ So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said. When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)
Further proof that Christ is subordinate to his father Adam. One does not increase by taking the place of a subordinate.
One cannot become exalted by taking the place of a subordinate, how can a subordinate be exalted if one himself is not exalted?

Also, It is offensive to be accused of twisting the words of a prophet. I have twisted nothing. I don't agree with some others interpretations of scriptures and quotes but have not accused them of twisting anything. It is obvious why Doug quit this topic, he didn't have the stomach for the vitriol expressed here, what a shame.

The clarifications I added are from finding answers to concerns I had about Adam being God and offered them to help. I don't really expect anyone to accept what I say but I do expect civility, doesn't one of the Commandments say something about bearing false witness?

Again, that is pretty offensive to accuse someone of twisting someone else's words when nothing of the sort happened, the original words are there for everyone to see without change.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Current position of the LDS Church

Eventually, the doctrine was publicly denounced as false by LDS Church leaders.[66] In 1976, church president Spencer W. Kimball stated, "We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine."[67][68]

In 1980, apostle Bruce R. McConkie gave a speech elaborating upon the church's position towards the Adam–God theory:

There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam–God theory does not deserve to be saved.* Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls.
We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced.[69]

Later the same year, apostle Mark E. Petersen stated:

Adam was not our God, nor was he our Savior. But he was the humble servant of both in his status as an angel. ...

God had only one begotten son in the flesh. But Adam had many, including Cain and Abel and Seth. He lived nearly a thousand years. He could have had hundreds of children in that time.

Then how could it be said by anyone that he had "an only begotten" son? How could all of his other children be accounted for? Were they not all begotten in the flesh?

Were Cain and Abel and Seth and their brothers and sisters all orphans? Was any child ever begotten without a father? Adam was their father, and he had many sons. In no way whatever does he qualify as a father who had only one son in the flesh.

Yet God our Eternal Father had only one son in the flesh, who was Jesus Christ.

Then was Adam our God, or did God become Adam? Ridiculous!

Adam was neither God nor the Only Begotten Son of God. He was a child of God in the spirit as we all are (see Acts 17:29). Jesus was the firstborn in the spirit, and the only one born to God in the flesh. ...
If any of you have been confused by false teachers who come among us, if you have been assailed by advocates of erroneous doctrines, counsel with your priesthood leaders. They will not lead you astray, but will direct you into paths of truth and salvation.[70]

Acceptance by Mormon fundamentalists
[icon] This section needs expansion. You can help by adding to it. (December 2010)

Adherents of Mormon fundamentalism generally accept the Adam–God doctrine.

The LDS Church's disavowal of the doctrine contributes to what fundamentalists perceive to be a general intellectual or spiritual retreat by the church from doctrines felt to be excessively challenging to their preconceptions. Along with the practice of plural marriage, belief in the Adam–God doctrine became a defining aspect of the Mormon fundamentalist movement.
Apostolic United Brethren

The Apostolic United Brethren (AUB), a fundamentalist Mormon group, accepts the Adam–God teaching, and their leader Joseph W. Musser wrote a book on it in the 1930s. In the book, Musser contended that the rejection of the doctrine by the LDS Church can be linked to its rejection of plural marriage, which occurred around the same time:

And let us here remind the reader that as long as belief in the Patriarchal order of marriage and other advanced principles of the Gospel was maintained, the minds of the Saints were open and receptive. ... But with the surrender of the glorious principle of Celestial Marriage—a union for time and eternity—came darkness, mental drowsiness, a detour from the Gospel path, until all sorts of speculation pertaining to the plan of Salvation was indulged in.[71]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_doctrine

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/u ... n_Adam.pdf

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

And I agree with that, The Adam God theory is false. But that is not what Joseph and Brigham taught.
The Adam God theory was put forth by apostates for evil purposes and has little resemblance to the Adam God
doctrine taught and accepted by the 12. This has caused much confusion but if you read the writings
of the prophets of the restoration, the confusion can be reduced.

Pres. Hinkley said we don't teach it. And Pres. Young told us why - there is so much unbelief.
Even Mark E. Peterson retracted what he said against the doctrine.
So If you don't believe, OK
But there is no harm to you if we discus it, provide quotes about it, or, perhaps even believe it. None of this harms you in any way.

And BTW "REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION." Reality is Reality, no matter what you think or say about it. Your or my fantasies have little bearing, if any at all, bearing on Reality.

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Alaris
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Alaris »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 24th, 2017, 5:55 pm
“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and
is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December
16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)
How can anyone continue to argue that Adam is subordinate to Christ, one needs to ignore
plain and simple testimony to do that.
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible… The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me... What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’ So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said. When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)
Further proof that Christ is subordinate to his father Adam. One does not increase by taking the place of a subordinate.
One cannot become exalted by taking the place of a subordinate, how can a subordinate be exalted if one himself is not exalted?

Also, It is offensive to be accused of twisting the words of a prophet. I have twisted nothing. I don't agree with some others interpretations of scriptures and quotes but have not accused them of twisting anything. It is obvious why Doug quit this topic, he didn't have the stomach for the vitriol expressed here, what a shame.

The clarifications I added are from finding answers to concerns I had about Adam being God and offered them to help. I don't really expect anyone to accept what I say but I do expect civility, doesn't one of the Commandments say something about bearing false witness?

Again, that is pretty offensive to accuse someone of twisting someone else's words when nothing of the sort happened, the original words are there for everyone to see without change.
King Follett is amazing and in no way indicates that God the Father and Adam are the same person.

I apologize if the word twist offended you. The commentary didn't align with the quotes at all. Better?

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 24th, 2017, 8:31 pm And I agree with that, The Adam God theory is false. But that is not what Joseph and Brigham taught.
The Adam God theory was put forth by apostates for evil purposes and has little resemblance to the Adam God
doctrine taught and accepted by the 12. This has caused much confusion but if you read the writings
of the prophets of the restoration, the confusion can be reduced.

Pres. Hinkley said we don't teach it. And Pres. Young told us why - there is so much unbelief.
Even Mark E. Peterson retracted what he said against the doctrine.
So If you don't believe, OK
But there is no harm to you if we discus it, provide quotes about it, or, perhaps even believe it. None of this harms you in any way. But it does harm to those lurking in on the forum and seeing that this stuff is

And BTW "REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION." Reality is Reality, no matter what you think or say about it. Your or my fantasies have little bearing, if any at all, bearing on Reality.
And the reality is is that doctrine is similar to swiss cheese, it is full of holes.
Your purpose here, apparently, is to discuss other than what comes from scripture and call it doctrine. I get that.
My purpose, on the other hand, is to stand as witness for Christ and his doctrine, in all things, at all times and in all places, so I guess that means this forum as well. (See: Mosiah 18:9)
We have lurkers potentially viewing every topic. We have investigators wanting to know the true gospel according to scripture. We also have current forum members that don't believe this supposed doctrine, yet they refuse to speak out for whatever reason, or don't allow themselves to continue posting truth.
That doctrine cannot effect my testimony because I know it is false, no matter what you or others say about it, no matter how much is posted in an effort to sway anyone to that line of thinking. This is reality!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_doctrine
In 1980, apostle Bruce R. McConkie gave a speech elaborating upon the church's position towards the Adam–God theory:

There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam–God theory does not deserve to be saved.* Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls.
We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced.[69]

Later the same year, apostle Mark E. Petersen stated:

Adam was not our God, nor was he our Savior. But he was the humble servant of both in his status as an angel. ...

God had only one begotten son in the flesh. But Adam had many, including Cain and Abel and Seth. He lived nearly a thousand years. He could have had hundreds of children in that time.

Then how could it be said by anyone that he had "an only begotten" son? How could all of his other children be accounted for? Were they not all begotten in the flesh?

Were Cain and Abel and Seth and their brothers and sisters all orphans? Was any child ever begotten without a father? Adam was their father, and he had many sons. In no way whatever does he qualify as a father who had only one son in the flesh.

Yet God our Eternal Father had only one son in the flesh, who was Jesus Christ.

Then was Adam our God, or did God become Adam? Ridiculous!

Adam was neither God nor the Only Begotten Son of God. He was a child of God in the spirit as we all are (see Acts 17:29). Jesus was the firstborn in the spirit, and the only one born to God in the flesh. ...
If any of you have been confused by false teachers who come among us, if you have been assailed by advocates of erroneous doctrines, counsel with your priesthood leaders. They will not lead you astray, but will direct you into paths of truth and salvation.[70]

Hidingbehindmyhandle
captain of 100
Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

freedomforall wrote: August 24th, 2017, 10:31 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 24th, 2017, 8:31 pm And I agree with that, The Adam God theory is false. But that is not what Joseph and Brigham taught.
The Adam God theory was put forth by apostates for evil purposes and has little resemblance to the Adam God
doctrine taught and accepted by the 12. This has caused much confusion but if you read the writings
of the prophets of the restoration, the confusion can be reduced.

Pres. Hinkley said we don't teach it. And Pres. Young told us why - there is so much unbelief.
Even Mark E. Peterson retracted what he said against the doctrine.
So If you don't believe, OK
But there is no harm to you if we discus it, provide quotes about it, or, perhaps even believe it. None of this harms you in any way. But it does harm to those lurking in on the forum and seeing that this stuff is

And BTW "REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION." Reality is Reality, no matter what you think or say about it. Your or my fantasies have little bearing, if any at all, bearing on Reality.
And the reality is is that doctrine is similar to swiss cheese, it is full of holes.
Your purpose here, apparently, is to discuss other than what comes from scripture and call it doctrine. I get that.
My purpose, on the other hand, is to stand as witness for Christ and his doctrine, in all things, at all times and in all places, so I guess that means this forum as well. (See: Mosiah 18:9)
We have lurkers potentially viewing every topic. We have investigators wanting to know the true gospel according to scripture. We also have current forum members that don't believe this supposed doctrine, yet they refuse to speak out for whatever reason, or don't allow themselves to continue posting truth.
That doctrine cannot effect my testimony because I know it is false, no matter what you or others say about it, no matter how much is posted in an effort to sway anyone to that line of thinking. This is reality!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_doctrine
In 1980, apostle Bruce R. McConkie gave a speech elaborating upon the church's position towards the Adam–God theory:

There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam–God theory does not deserve to be saved.* Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls.
We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced.[69]

Later the same year, apostle Mark E. Petersen stated:

Adam was not our God, nor was he our Savior. But he was the humble servant of both in his status as an angel. ...

God had only one begotten son in the flesh. But Adam had many, including Cain and Abel and Seth. He lived nearly a thousand years. He could have had hundreds of children in that time.

Then how could it be said by anyone that he had "an only begotten" son? How could all of his other children be accounted for? Were they not all begotten in the flesh?

Were Cain and Abel and Seth and their brothers and sisters all orphans? Was any child ever begotten without a father? Adam was their father, and he had many sons. In no way whatever does he qualify as a father who had only one son in the flesh.

Yet God our Eternal Father had only one son in the flesh, who was Jesus Christ.

Then was Adam our God, or did God become Adam? Ridiculous!

Adam was neither God nor the Only Begotten Son of God. He was a child of God in the spirit as we all are (see Acts 17:29). Jesus was the firstborn in the spirit, and the only one born to God in the flesh. ...
If any of you have been confused by false teachers who come among us, if you have been assailed by advocates of erroneous doctrines, counsel with your priesthood leaders. They will not lead you astray, but will direct you into paths of truth and salvation.[70]

And in quote after quote after quote on this thread, The prophets of the restoration have taught otherwise. None more plain than this,
“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and
is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December
16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)
Do you deny modern revelation? If all to know is in the scriptures, then why do we have 15 prophets, seers, and revelators?

The quotes all reveal the true relationship between Adam and Christ as Father and Son, yet that is also denied by others.

Your intentions and the spirit with which you carry them out are clear -
freedomforall wrote: July 29th, 2017, 2:47 am The ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE IS FALSE. NO ARGUMENT NEEDED. NO BAITING REQUIRED. NO AMOUNT OF INSULTS CAN OR WILL CHANGE MY TESTIMONY. PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK BAD. YOUR TACTICS ARE THE VERY SAME AS THE PREVIOUS POSTERS COMING HERE TO START A CONFLICT. FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF AND OF A FUNDAMENTALIST POINT OF VIEW. AND, APPARENTLY YOU LACK ENOUGH RESPECT FOR MY POSITION OF HAVING ENOUGH OF THIS TOPIC THAT NOW I FIGURE YOU ARE ONLY HERE TO GET FOLLOWERS, NOT TO ACTUALLY HEAR ARGUMENTS OF DIFFERENCE, FOR YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF CHANGING YOUR MIND WHATSOEVER, RATHER TO JAM JS AND BY DOWN OUR THROATS, ALL THE WHILE LETTING SCRIPTURE GATHER DUST ON YOUR SHELF.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW MY ARGUMENTS, SEARCH THE FORUM. THERE ARE PLENTY. I HAVE NO INCLINATION OF REPEATING MYSELF EVERY TIME A NEW GUY COMES ALONG.
You demand respect for your position on this topic while paying none to Joseph Smith's and Brigham Young's position on the topic.

And others present their own new and original ideas out of harmony with plain and simple statements from prophets of God.

So who speaks truth here and who does not?
Doug spoke truth here but he is no longer here. Is truth not wanted here?
All those who lurk but don't speak, now is the time to speak up,
why are you here, what do you want here?

freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 25th, 2017, 2:02 amDo you deny modern revelation? If all to know is in the scriptures, then why do we have 15 prophets, seers, and revelators?
I believe that for what is being taught here...those involved had better be spot on right because at the end of the day it will be the proponents of such doctrine facing God and explaining why some others may have been led off the path.

Modern revelation? Here is some for you:

Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls. Bruce R. McConkie

Remember that apostles are also prophets, seers and revelators.

Another apostle, Mark E. Petersen, said this:

Adam was not our God, nor was he our Savior. But he was the humble servant of both in his status as an angel. ...

God had only one begotten son in the flesh. But Adam had many, including Cain and Abel and Seth. He lived nearly a thousand years. He could have had hundreds of children in that time.

Then how could it be said by anyone that he had "an only begotten" son? How could all of his other children be accounted for? Were they not all begotten in the flesh?

Were Cain and Abel and Seth and their brothers and sisters all orphans? Was any child ever begotten without a father? Adam was their father, and he had many sons. In no way whatever does he qualify as a father who had only one son in the flesh.

Yet God our Eternal Father had only one son in the flesh, who was Jesus Christ.

Then was Adam our God, or did God become Adam? Ridiculous!

Adam was neither God nor the Only Begotten Son of God. He was a child of God in the spirit as we all are (see Acts 17:29). Jesus was the firstborn in the spirit, and the only one born to God in the flesh. ...
If any of you have been confused by false teachers who come among us, if you have been assailed by advocates of erroneous doctrines, counsel with your priesthood leaders. They will not lead you astray, but will direct you into paths of truth and salvation.

Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, said this:

We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.

Do I believe in modern revelation....yes. President Kimball also said: We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth.


Even Orson Pratt was 100% against the doctrine taught by so many leaders of his day.

So you see, in all reality, all that is being done with what was said well over a century and a half ago and statements made by recent leaders...is to pit them against each other. Therefore, the doctrine being preached is not a valid doctrine by any stretch.

BTW, President Wilford Woodruff is my G-g-grandfather. Does this mean I have to believe everything out of his mouth, no questions asked, like a lost, hungry, kitten seeking food and lapping up whatever is found?

Why are you here, what do you want here?

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by sandman45 »

go and read the full talk by Mark E Peterson.. its full of false doctrine too. Then go and read what Brigham and Joseph said on the subject.. you will see the differences

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

sandman45 wrote: August 25th, 2017, 3:59 pm go and read the full talk by Mark E Peterson.. its full of false doctrine too. Then go and read what Brigham and Joseph said on the subject.. you will see the differences
Why, none of the Adam-God doctrine preached by men from over 150 years ago is true doctrine either. It is not official canon, only opinion and, frankly, an anomaly. Even Orson Pratt was appalled by it. But he doesn't get mentioned for obvious reasons. Perhaps a list of all the folks from within that time frame, against that doctrine is in order. In fact, there were so many people against it that it was never made official canon to be believed, let alone internalized.
People who read scripture, ponder it and really glean from it can't see how any of that doctrine would even come close to what scriptures teaches us. And cherry picking a few verses and changing their meaning doesn't help the cause either. Father, Adam refers to Adam as father of all mankind, not the highest God in the universe. Adam did not create our spirits and place them onto our intelligence. Jehovah/Christ was the First Born in Spirit, thus, not a subordinate to Adam. Adam/Michael is a younger brother to Jehovah as are all of us.

Colossians 1
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

D&C 93
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.

BD Firstborn
Jesus is the firstborn of the spirit children of our Heavenly Father, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and the first to rise from the dead in the Resurrection, “that in all things he might have the preeminence”
Last edited by freedomforall on August 25th, 2017, 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Posts: 636

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

freedomforall wrote: August 25th, 2017, 1:50 pm I believe that for what is being taught here...those involved had better be spot on right because at the end of the day it will be the proponents of such doctrine facing God and explaining why some others may have been led off the path.

Modern revelation? Here is some for you:

Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls. Bruce R. McConkie
No one has proposed "polygamous relationships" here!
Besides that, "Mormon Doctrine" was not approved for publication, it had nearly an error on every page.
freedomforall wrote: August 25th, 2017, 1:50 pm Remember that apostles are also prophets, seers and revelators.

Another apostle, Mark E. Petersen, said this:

Adam was not our God, nor was he our Savior. But he was the humble servant of both in his status as an angel. ...

God had only one begotten son in the flesh. But Adam had many, including Cain and Abel and Seth. He lived nearly a thousand years. He could have had hundreds of children in that time.

Then how could it be said by anyone that he had "an only begotten" son? How could all of his other children be accounted for? Were they not all begotten in the flesh?

Were Cain and Abel and Seth and their brothers and sisters all orphans? Was any child ever begotten without a father? Adam was their father, and he had many sons. In no way whatever does he qualify as a father who had only one son in the flesh.

Yet God our Eternal Father had only one son in the flesh, who was Jesus Christ.

Then was Adam our God, or did God become Adam? Ridiculous!

Adam was neither God nor the Only Begotten Son of God. He was a child of God in the spirit as we all are (see Acts 17:29). Jesus was the firstborn in the spirit, and the only one born to God in the flesh. ...
If any of you have been confused by false teachers who come among us, if you have been assailed by advocates of erroneous doctrines, counsel with your priesthood leaders. They will not lead you astray, but will direct you into paths of truth and salvation.
And when He learned the truth of what Joseph and Brigham taufht, he recanted.
freedomforall wrote: August 25th, 2017, 1:50 pm
Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, said this:

We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.

Do I believe in modern revelation....yes. President Kimball also said: We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth.
Again, The Adam God Theory and the Adam God DOctrine are not the same thing!
freedomforall wrote: August 25th, 2017, 1:50 pm Even Orson Pratt was 100% against the doctrine taught by so many leaders of his day.
Orson Pratt was nearly excommunicated for teaching against this doctrine and instead teaching his own doctrine.
He finally repented and embraced the true doctrine as taught by Brigham and returned to the quorum in full fellowship.
freedomforall wrote: August 25th, 2017, 1:50 pm
So you see, in all reality, all that is being done with what was said well over a century and a half ago and statements made by recent leaders...is to pit them against each other. Therefore, the doctrine being preached is not a valid doctrine by any stretch.
And so we see the contention caused by not being in harmony with what was actually taught by the prophets, either in scripture or other writings.
freedomforall wrote: August 25th, 2017, 1:50 pm
BTW, President Wilford Woodruff is my G-g-grandfather. Does this mean I have to believe everything out of his mouth, no questions asked, like a lost, hungry, kitten seeking food and lapping up whatever is found?
And still, you reject the prophets
freedomforall wrote: August 25th, 2017, 1:50 pm
Why are you here, what do you want here?
Doug came here to ask questions about this topic.
I came as a balance to this
freedomforall wrote: July 29th, 2017, 2:47 am The ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE IS FALSE. NO ARGUMENT NEEDED. NO BAITING REQUIRED. NO AMOUNT OF INSULTS CAN OR WILL CHANGE MY TESTIMONY. PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK BAD. YOUR TACTICS ARE THE VERY SAME AS THE PREVIOUS POSTERS COMING HERE TO START A CONFLICT. FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF AND OF A FUNDAMENTALIST POINT OF VIEW. AND, APPARENTLY YOU LACK ENOUGH RESPECT FOR MY POSITION OF HAVING ENOUGH OF THIS TOPIC THAT NOW I FIGURE YOU ARE ONLY HERE TO GET FOLLOWERS, NOT TO ACTUALLY HEAR ARGUMENTS OF DIFFERENCE, FOR YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF CHANGING YOUR MIND WHATSOEVER, RATHER TO JAM JS AND BY DOWN OUR THROATS, ALL THE WHILE LETTING SCRIPTURE GATHER DUST ON YOUR SHELF.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW MY ARGUMENTS, SEARCH THE FORUM. THERE ARE PLENTY. I HAVE NO INCLINATION OF REPEATING MYSELF EVERY TIME A NEW GUY COMES ALONG.

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Alaris
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by Alaris »

I thought I had posted something here after my last post. I need more rest apparently.

I hate to kick a dead horse here, but you've presented your position (and Doug's if you are two separate people. If you are not then I daresay there is an element of deception by referring to Doug as though he is someone else)

FFA has presented his position, and I have presented mine. Interestingly enough my position is about halfway between the two as I agree on the ascension of souls across subsequent creations, though I firmly testify that Jesus Christ is Jehovah and Michael / Adam is subordinate to him as I have demonstrated in scripture rather than the musings of BY that have oft been misunderstood and have never been canonized. Moreover, by the mouth of two or three witnesses when applied to the prophets reveals that no other LDS prophet has declared Adam to be above Jesus in the hierarchy (and neither has BY ever said this explicitly.) His statement that Adam is the father of Jesus is true when you take Mary into account. Adam has had other children so Mark E. Petersen is correct that "only begotten son in the flesh" makes zero sense if Elohim = Adam which he is not.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Post by freedomforall »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: August 25th, 2017, 5:06 pmI came as a balance to this
freedomforall wrote: July 29th, 2017, 2:47 am The ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE IS FALSE....
There is no balance because the Adam-God teachings are not accepted by the whole membership of the church, therefore, a balance is utterly impossible.

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