Mysteries of the Kingdom

[freedomforall]

The public nature of the forum means our beliefs should be reflected in our words both on tone and in content. Still it seems your reply is a justification of contention. Standing for truth does not require contention. In fact it requires the opposite because the truth is contention is of the devil.

Contention is of the devil, for certain. No argument here.

Do you conclude that when Jesus was preaching and spreading his doctrine all over Jerusalem and abroad, and because a multitude of people were appalled and upset with him for stirring the proverbial pot, and that many people tried to do him harm, that he was the cause of contention and disputations?

Was he wrong for taking a whip and yelling at the moneychangers in the temple?

John 2:14-15,19-21
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge (whip) of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;

Matthew 21:12,14-15,23
12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, ...they were sore displeased,

Was Nephi wrong for telling his brothers that they were doing evil?

1 Nephi 17:44-48,52
44 ...ye also have sought to take away his life; wherefore, ye are murderers in your hearts and ye are like unto them.
45 Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God....
46 ...O, then, why is it, that ye can be so hard in your hearts?
47 Behold, my soul is rent with anguish because of you, and my heart is pained; I fear lest ye shall be cast off forever....
48 And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words they were angry with me, and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea; ....
52 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said many things unto my brethren, insomuch that they were confounded and could not contend against me;...

Now tell me I am doing evil by standing up and trying to convey to others what the word of God entails. I make mistakes, some times say things incorrectly and even forget some points as has SHADOW pointed out so eloquently. However, I try to do my best but also try to not run faster than I am able.

Alma 1:26
26 And when the priests left their labor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man according to his strength.

Doctrine and Covenants 10:5
5 Pray always, that you may come off conqueror; yea, that you may conquer Satan, and that you may escape the hands of the servants of Satan that do uphold his work.

[Alaris]

The public nature of the forum means our beliefs should be reflected in our words both on tone and in content. Still it seems your reply is a justification of contention. Standing for truth does not require contention. In fact it requires the opposite because the truth is contention is of the devil.

Contention is of the devil, for certain. No argument here.

Do you conclude that when Jesus was preaching and spreading his doctrine all over Jerusalem and abroad, and because a multitude of people were appalled and upset with him for stirring the proverbial pot, and that many people tried to do him harm, that he was the cause of contention and disputations?

Was he wrong for taking a whip and yelling at the moneychangers in the temple?

John 2:14-15,19-21
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge (whip) of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;

Matthew 21:12,14-15,23
12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, ...they were sore displeased,

Was Nephi wrong for telling his brothers that they were doing evil?

1 Nephi 17:44-48,52
44 ...ye also have sought to take away his life; wherefore, ye are murderers in your hearts and ye are like unto them.
45 Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God....
46 ...O, then, why is it, that ye can be so hard in your hearts?
47 Behold, my soul is rent with anguish because of you, and my heart is pained; I fear lest ye shall be cast off forever....
48 And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words they were angry with me, and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea; ....
52 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said many things unto my brethren, insomuch that they were confounded and could not contend against me;...

Now tell me I am doing evil by standing up and trying to convey to others what the word of God entails. I make mistakes, some times say things incorrectly and even forget some points as has SHADOW pointed out so eloquently. However, I try to do my best but also try to not run faster than I am able.

Alma 1:26
26 And when the priests left their labor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man according to his strength.

Doctrine and Covenants 10:5
5 Pray always, that you may come off conqueror; yea, that you may conquer Satan, and that you may escape the hands of the servants of Satan that do uphold his work.

More justification FFA. You're not Jesus. Jesus has commanded YOU to be gentle and to have long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned. The power of the priesthood cannot be wielded but by such. The guilty take the truth to be hard all by itself even with a gentle, patient delivery. CAPS is shouting too by the way. O:-)

[freedomforall]

The public nature of the forum means our beliefs should be reflected in our words both on tone and in content. Still it seems your reply is a justification of contention. Standing for truth does not require contention. In fact it requires the opposite because the truth is contention is of the devil.

Contention is of the devil, for certain. No argument here.

Do you conclude that when Jesus was preaching and spreading his doctrine all over Jerusalem and abroad, and because a multitude of people were appalled and upset with him for stirring the proverbial pot, and that many people tried to do him harm, that he was the cause of contention and disputations?

Was he wrong for taking a whip and yelling at the moneychangers in the temple?

John 2:14-15,19-21
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge (whip) of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;

Matthew 21:12,14-15,23
12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, ...they were sore displeased,

Was Nephi wrong for telling his brothers that they were doing evil?

1 Nephi 17:44-48,52
44 ...ye also have sought to take away his life; wherefore, ye are murderers in your hearts and ye are like unto them.
45 Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God....
46 ...O, then, why is it, that ye can be so hard in your hearts?
47 Behold, my soul is rent with anguish because of you, and my heart is pained; I fear lest ye shall be cast off forever....
48 And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words they were angry with me, and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea; ....
52 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said many things unto my brethren, insomuch that they were confounded and could not contend against me;...

Now tell me I am doing evil by standing up and trying to convey to others what the word of God entails. I make mistakes, some times say things incorrectly and even forget some points as has SHADOW pointed out so eloquently. However, I try to do my best but also try to not run faster than I am able.

Alma 1:26
26 And when the priests left their labor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man according to his strength.

Doctrine and Covenants 10:5
5 Pray always, that you may come off conqueror; yea, that you may conquer Satan, and that you may escape the hands of the servants of Satan that do uphold his work.

More justification FFA. You're not Jesus. Jesus has commanded YOU to be gentle and to have long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned. The power of the priesthood cannot be wielded but by such. The guilty take the truth to be hard all by itself even with a gentle, patient delivery. CAPS is shouting too by the way. O:-)

I don't require justification. I speak because it is right and in compliance of standing as a witness for Christ as I have already explained. Whispering is not a good method of articulation.

Should a man or woman standing at a podium in front of thousands of people not use a microphone so as to not upset anyone?

Caps is a good way to identify something and is not shouting unless written in such a way to do so. I used caps for shadow, because not everyone and especially new forum members may not or don't know who he is.

Good grief, please wake up and think outside the box...even. Snag.

[Alaris]

Should a man or woman standing at a podium in front of thousands of people not use a microphone so as to not upset anyone?

Caps is a good way to identify something and is not shouting unless written in such a way to do so. I used caps for shadow, because not everyone and especially new forum members may not or don't know who he is.

Good grief, please wake up and think outside the box...even. Snag.

Um yeah - especially if we are supposed to be showing those thousands of people that we are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. D&C 121 brutha.

CAPS IS A TERRIBLE WAY TO IDENTIFY SOMETHING BECAUSE ITS HARD TO READ. ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T USE NEW PARAGRAPHS. AND MANY IF NOT MOST ASSUME IT'S SHOUTING WHICH IS NOT THE LORDS WAY.

A defender of truth does so in both word and deed as his deeds show his obedience to love his neighbor and his priesthood power is demonstrated by adhering to D&C 121:

D&C 121:41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

Reproving betimes is rare and is not the standard by which truth is defended. No power or influence can or ought to be maintained ... no priesthood power can be maintained with frequent dives into the dark spirit of contention.

You may continue to contest me on this, but you know I'm right. I appreciate you and many of your posts. However, even dealing with fundamentalists we shouldn't appear to list to the same spirit that they do when they come here seeking contention. :ymhug:

[freedomforall]

Should a man or woman standing at a podium in front of thousands of people not use a microphone so as to not upset anyone?

Caps is a good way to identify something and is not shouting unless written in such a way to do so. I used caps for shadow, because not everyone and especially new forum members may not or don't know who he is.

Good grief, please wake up and think outside the box...even. Snag.

Um yeah - especially if we are supposed to be showing those thousands of people that we are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. D&C 121 brutha.

CAPS IS A TERRIBLE WAY TO IDENTIFY SOMETHING BECAUSE ITS HARD TO READ. ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T USE NEW PARAGRAPHS. AND MANY IF NOT MOST ASSUME IT'S SHOUTING WHICH IS NOT THE LORDS WAY.

A defender of truth does so in both word and deed as his deeds show his obedience to love his neighbor and his priesthood power is demonstrated by adhering to D&C 121:

D&C 121:41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

Reproving betimes is rare and is not the standard by which truth is defended. No power or influence can or ought to be maintained ... no priesthood power can be maintained with frequent dives into the dark spirit of contention.

You may continue to contest me on this, but you know I'm right. I appreciate you and many of your posts. However, even dealing with fundamentalists we shouldn't appear to list to the same spirit that they do when they come here seeking contention. :ymhug:

You have your personality and I have mine, just as does everyone else here, so we'll just have to deal with varying thoughts and agree to disagree...or go on with the back and forth discussion of how to be human.

Love is to not tolerate, condone or join in. What does the word abhor mean to you? How do you interpret the verse that says we are to abhor sin?
Love is to tell others of wrong doing; you love them enough to help them see the error of their ways, ie, parents training and rearing children. What would happen if kids didn't have a life of hard knocks? How would they come to know discipline, kindness, humility, compassion, or kindness?

You say I am not Jesus. This is so true but a direct insult as well. Jesus is our exemplar in every way, not just gospel teachings. He also exhibited boldness, courage and conviction. We need no excuse for speaking out. Why do some people only see Jesus as a meek individual ready to be railroaded at every turn? Why can't any of us follow his example in our actions as well as speech?

Now you may say that by following Jesus' example I am using it to justify myself. Fine, but don't tell me Jesus walked around with his mouth closed either. Look it up, it's in the book. :ymhug:

[Alaris]

Should a man or woman standing at a podium in front of thousands of people not use a microphone so as to not upset anyone?

Caps is a good way to identify something and is not shouting unless written in such a way to do so. I used caps for shadow, because not everyone and especially new forum members may not or don't know who he is.

Good grief, please wake up and think outside the box...even. Snag.

Um yeah - especially if we are supposed to be showing those thousands of people that we are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. D&C 121 brutha.

CAPS IS A TERRIBLE WAY TO IDENTIFY SOMETHING BECAUSE ITS HARD TO READ. ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T USE NEW PARAGRAPHS. AND MANY IF NOT MOST ASSUME IT'S SHOUTING WHICH IS NOT THE LORDS WAY.

A defender of truth does so in both word and deed as his deeds show his obedience to love his neighbor and his priesthood power is demonstrated by adhering to D&C 121:

D&C 121:41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

Reproving betimes is rare and is not the standard by which truth is defended. No power or influence can or ought to be maintained ... no priesthood power can be maintained with frequent dives into the dark spirit of contention.

You may continue to contest me on this, but you know I'm right. I appreciate you and many of your posts. However, even dealing with fundamentalists we shouldn't appear to list to the same spirit that they do when they come here seeking contention. :ymhug:

You have your personality and I have mine, just as does everyone else here, so we'll just have to deal with varying thoughts and agree to disagree...or go on with the back and forth discussion of how to be human.

Love is to not tolerate, condone or join in. What does the word abhor mean to you? How do you interpret the verse that says we are to abhor sin?
Love is to tell others of wrong doing; you love them enough to help them see the error of their ways, ie, parents training and rearing children. What would happen if kids didn't have a life of hard knocks? How would they come to know discipline, kindness, humility, compassion, or kindness?

You say I am not Jesus. This is so true but a direct insult as well. Jesus is our exemplar in every way, not just gospel teachings. He also exhibited boldness, courage and conviction. We need no excuse for speaking out. Why do some people only see Jesus as a meek individual ready to be railroaded at every turn? Why can't any of us follow his example in our actions as well as speech?

Now you may say that by following Jesus' example I am using it to justify myself. Fine, but don't tell me Jesus walked around with his mouth closed either. Look it up, it's in the book. :ymhug:

Wow FFA. Saying you're not Jesus is an insult? Wait .. wait I see what you're doing. You're looking for the negative interaction fix. Sorry - I'm not descending to that level in which you need at least one person with which to participate.

So let's recap. FFA is not Jesus. Those who disagree with FFA are not children. The fact you use that analogy is demonstrative of the problem from which you are suffering. You are contentious in many if not a majority of your posts. Contention does not convert and it certainly does not convince the lurkers which you often use to justify this base behavior. Reread through your posts and you will see that each point of truth you make can and should be underscored with love. <3 <3 I still need to ask Robert Sinclaire how he makes those hearts.

"Don't tell me Jesus walked around with his mouth closed either."

OK FFA. I will try really hard not to tell you that. See the above is the example of what you do when someone challenges you - you start to insult and condescend hoping they'll take the bait and scratch that itch. I'm not scratching. I am suffering long ;)

"Why do some people only see Jesus as a meek individual ready to be railroaded at every turn?"

Lol what? Railroaded? Does anyone say that?

Jesus was meek buddy. Check this out:

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

He would confound the contentious with His profound wisdom and light, and he didn't even need to use CAPs. ;) :ymhug:

Edit: You are condescending which invites contention*

Edit edit: I like you. Nobody likes the condescension unless they listen to that same spirit of contention.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

So, we've already been redeemed by God the Father (it wasn't Christ, he is our brother and was redeemed with us)

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

And we will be redeemed again by Christ. As the Son, he will redeem us thus becoming our Father, The Father of the next Eternal Round.

There have been 22 posts after I posted this and not one mention of the actual contents.
I think that pretty much says all that needs to be said about the intentions of those on this topic.!

[freedomforall]

Edit edit: I like you. Nobody likes the condescension unless they listen to that same spirit of contention. Then why do you keep pushing the envelop ? Can you take your own advice ?

Now we're into the BS stage. Do you, like many others have to put words in my mouth and then claim I said them ? Are you now pretending to be clairvoyant ? Must you twist my words and meanings around so you can take credit for how you perceive things not really knowing me or what I am saying ?

I even told you to think as you wish, but does this give you the right to twist my words and meanings around in order to appease that kind of thinking ?

Please don't start in with the intellect bashing. If you want to be like Jesus then can you at least act like it ?

No, I am not Jesus or ever pretend being as such, but do you have to arrogantly try to imply that your conception of such is true ? Can you lighten up and give it a rest ? Do you want to be further cause for contention as you have been doing thus far ? Can you come down off your high horse and smell the roses ? Can you not take yourself so seriously, and try to understand what someone is saying rather than to twist their words to suit yourself ? Can you ask questions instead of making rash judgements geared to tick someone off ?

I asked you to agree to disagree. I thought that was a reasonable request, but why must I be proven wrong every time someone wants what they believe to be shouted from housetops, before being humble enough to let things go and agree to disagree ?

If you refuse to heed my request then your name will end up on my ignore list
among names of those who just can't be humble enough to be wrong in their assessments of others. We've had issues before as you know, so this isn't the first time we've clashed.

Now, if you want to continue baiting me then maybe the forum admin ought to be in on this, because I get agitated for getting board warnings for defending myself. I want this BS to come to a screeching halt. Can you handle that ? Or can you not refrain from having the last word and judgement ? :-w

[freedomforall]

D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

So, we've already been redeemed by God the Father (it wasn't Christ, he is our brother and was redeemed with us)

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

And we will be redeemed again by Christ. As the Son, he will redeem us thus becoming our Father, The Father of the next Eternal Round.

There have been 22 posts after I posted this and not one mention of the actual contents.
I think that pretty much says all that needs to be said about the intentions of those on this topic.!

What topic ? Was there one with any substance ? Was a memo sent out ?

[Alaris]

Edit edit: I like you. Nobody likes the condescension unless they listen to that same spirit of contention. Then why do you keep pushing the envelop ? Can you take your own advice ?

Now we're into the BS stage. Do you, like many others have to put words in my mouth and then claim I said them ? Are you now pretending to be clairvoyant ? Must you twist my words and meanings around so you can take credit for how you perceive things not really knowing me or what I am saying ?

I even told you to think as you wish, but does this give you the right to twist my words and meanings around in order to appease that kind of thinking ?

Please don't start in with the intellect bashing. If you want to be like Jesus then can you at least act like it ?

No, I am not Jesus or ever pretend being as such, but do you have to arrogantly try to imply that your conception of such is true ? Can you lighten up and give it a rest ? Do you want to be further cause for contention as you have been doing thus far ? Can you come down off your high horse and smell the roses ? Can you not take yourself so seriously, and try to understand what someone is saying rather than to twist their words to suit yourself ? Can you ask questions instead of making rash judgements geared to tick someone off ?

I asked you to agree to disagree. I thought that was a reasonable request, but why must I be proven wrong every time someone wants what they believe to be shouted from housetops, before being humble enough to let things go and agree to disagree ?

If you refuse to heed my request then your name will end up on my ignore list
among names of those who just can't be humble enough to be wrong in their assessments of others. We've had issues before as you know, so this isn't the first time we've clashed.

Now, if you want to continue baiting me then maybe the forum admin ought to be in on this, because I get agitated for getting board warnings for defending myself. I want this BS to come to a screeching halt. Can you handle that ? Or can you not refrain from having the last word and judgement ? :-w

You've got a problem with anger and negativity. I'm sure the forum admin is watching this. I've not insulted you but have offered you only advice as to why so many have asked you to reconsider your approach.

Look back to my first question you to which you reacted.

[freedomforall]

Edit edit: I like you. Nobody likes the condescension unless they listen to that same spirit of contention. Then why do you keep pushing the envelop ? Can you take your own advice ?

Now we're into the BS stage. Do you, like many others have to put words in my mouth and then claim I said them ? Are you now pretending to be clairvoyant ? Must you twist my words and meanings around so you can take credit for how you perceive things not really knowing me or what I am saying ?

I even told you to think as you wish, but does this give you the right to twist my words and meanings around in order to appease that kind of thinking ?

Please don't start in with the intellect bashing. If you want to be like Jesus then can you at least act like it ?

No, I am not Jesus or ever pretend being as such, but do you have to arrogantly try to imply that your conception of such is true ? Can you lighten up and give it a rest ? Do you want to be further cause for contention as you have been doing thus far ? Can you come down off your high horse and smell the roses ? Can you not take yourself so seriously, and try to understand what someone is saying rather than to twist their words to suit yourself ? Can you ask questions instead of making rash judgements geared to tick someone off ?

I asked you to agree to disagree. I thought that was a reasonable request, but why must I be proven wrong every time someone wants what they believe to be shouted from housetops, before being humble enough to let things go and agree to disagree ?

If you refuse to heed my request then your name will end up on my ignore list
among names of those who just can't be humble enough to be wrong in their assessments of others. We've had issues before as you know, so this isn't the first time we've clashed.

Now, if you want to continue baiting me then maybe the forum admin ought to be in on this, because I get agitated for getting board warnings for defending myself. I want this BS to come to a screeching halt. Can you handle that ? Or can you not refrain from having the last word and judgement ? :-w

You've got a problem with anger and negativity. I'm sure the forum admin is watching this. I've not insulted you but have offered you only advice as to why so many have asked you to reconsider your approach.

Look back to my first question you to which you reacted.

Thank you for proving my point so readily and to the extent most suited for you. Just what I expected, too. I love it when I'm right.

[Alaris]

Edit edit: I like you. Nobody likes the condescension unless they listen to that same spirit of contention. Then why do you keep pushing the envelop ? Can you take your own advice ?

Now we're into the BS stage. Do you, like many others have to put words in my mouth and then claim I said them ? Are you now pretending to be clairvoyant ? Must you twist my words and meanings around so you can take credit for how you perceive things not really knowing me or what I am saying ?

I even told you to think as you wish, but does this give you the right to twist my words and meanings around in order to appease that kind of thinking ?

Please don't start in with the intellect bashing. If you want to be like Jesus then can you at least act like it ?

No, I am not Jesus or ever pretend being as such, but do you have to arrogantly try to imply that your conception of such is true ? Can you lighten up and give it a rest ? Do you want to be further cause for contention as you have been doing thus far ? Can you come down off your high horse and smell the roses ? Can you not take yourself so seriously, and try to understand what someone is saying rather than to twist their words to suit yourself ? Can you ask questions instead of making rash judgements geared to tick someone off ?

I asked you to agree to disagree. I thought that was a reasonable request, but why must I be proven wrong every time someone wants what they believe to be shouted from housetops, before being humble enough to let things go and agree to disagree ?

If you refuse to heed my request then your name will end up on my ignore list
among names of those who just can't be humble enough to be wrong in their assessments of others. We've had issues before as you know, so this isn't the first time we've clashed.

Now, if you want to continue baiting me then maybe the forum admin ought to be in on this, because I get agitated for getting board warnings for defending myself. I want this BS to come to a screeching halt. Can you handle that ? Or can you not refrain from having the last word and judgement ? :-w

You've got a problem with anger and negativity. I'm sure the forum admin is watching this. I've not insulted you but have offered you only advice as to why so many have asked you to reconsider your approach.

Look back to my first question you to which you reacted.

Thank you for proving my point so readily and to the extent most suited for you. Just what I expected, too. I love it when I'm right.

You really have no idea how badly you're guilty of what you've accused me and you made my original point. Remember what I asked? I asked generally and not to you specifically why are you here? Are you here to build or destroy? Are you here to learn or to be right at someone else's expense? So yeah thanks for answering finally and proving my point. It wast already evident. My questions were more of an invitation to your to consider the implications of the answers in hopes to persuade you to a better path. Just like Finrock attempts to do every so often with you when he says you should consider that maybe your presentation of your interpretation of scripture is the interpretation of scripture is wrong... I also know the likelihood of Persuading you is low yet wet do it out of love with patience and long suffering. Yet you can't help but make it a contest to justify your behavior to be right.

[freedomforall]

You really have no idea how badly you're guilty of what you've accused me and you made my original point. Remember what I asked? I asked generally and not to you specifically why are you here? Are you here to build or destroy? Are you here to learn or to be right at someone else's expense? So yeah thanks for answering finally and proving my point. It wast already evident. My questions were more of an invitation to your to consider the implications of the answers in hopes to persuade you to a better path. Just like Finrock attempts to do every so often with you when he says you should consider that maybe your presentation of your interpretation of scripture is the interpretation of scripture is wrong... I also know the likelihood of Persuading you is low yet wet do it out of love with patience and long suffering. Yet you can't help but make it a contest to justify your behavior to be right.

Is this the best you got ?

[Alaris]

Peace brother. It's not a contest of who is right but what is right.

[freedomforall]

Peace brother. It's not a contest of who is right but what is right.

So is it a contest to see which one has the most correct, precise. near perfect and spot on interpretation ? And since most people do not have the same, exact interpretation, we are to challenge each other with terms like or similar to, "you don't know what you're talking about" or "you don't understand scripture" or "so and so says this in the JOD, so that supersedes scripture" or any other snippy comment geared to insult someone ? Further, just because someone does not like an interpretation of another doesn't make that interpretation wrong. It merely shows that the person doesn't want to accept it as truth because it messes with their own paradigm, or a lifestyle that may be out of sync with scripture.

And believe me, it is a direct insult when someone comes around and tells me that what I have spent fifty or so years in learning is incorrect, and proceeds to push the Adam-God doctrine, and in this case everyone here, down our throats and claiming they have the correct interpretation. and that we are stupid for believing orthodox Mormon teachings.

I wish I could list every topic that has holes in it, but my memory does not allow me to bring them to the forefront of my brain these days, however, MMP is one of them.

Another thing, why do people misinterpret what is said in the temple concerning Adam and Eve ? There is a huge difference between the words "as though you are Adam and Eve" and "you are Adam and Eve. We are there by proxy for Adam and Eve for our own endowment and for others we do temple work for, right ?

I could go on but choose to give it a rest. Just know that I do know the scriptures pretty well, but due to memory issues these days, I don't do well in articulating my thoughts. It is the Holy Ghost helping me to do what I am presenting concerning scripture. Other times I am on my own.

One thing that makes me grumpy at present is the fact that I lost my four-legged companion of eleven years. I have been really down even to the point of sobbing. This is not an excuse for bad behavior, but is a fact that is hard to accept until more time can heal the void left behind.

[Alaris]

I'm sorry for your loss ffa. Prayer your way.

[sandman45]

@FFA the term 'Fundamentalist' was coined to label or name call those or categorize people and their beliefs as a negative thing... Just look in the past of how it is used.. its almost a derogatory term.

fun·da·men·tal·ist: a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion.
"religious fundamentalists"

There are also Christian Fundamentalist and Christians would make fun of them.

Fundie:
(US) Shortening of fundamentalist. Usually used to mean a Christian fundamentalist.[4]

Technically speaking, in terms of the history and sociology of religion, fundamentalism is a term that was generated between approximately 1895 and 1915 to describe some conservative Christian believers in the United States who themselves produced a series of pamphlets—The Fundamentals— as a defensive response to liberal theology. Such fundamentalists were opposed to ‘modernists’. In more popular terms ‘fundamentalist’ has come to be a pejorative term used by mainstream groups when accounting for the opinions of religious or political extremists.
– Source: Douglas J. Davies, An Introduction to Mormonism. Publisher: Cambridge University Press. Cambridge, England. 2003. Page 233

Mormon fundamentalists believe that these and other principles were wrongly abandoned or changed by the LDS Church in its efforts to become reconciled with mainstream American society. Today, the LDS Church excommunicates any of its members who practice plural marriage or who otherwise closely associate themselves with Mormon fundamentalist practices. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_fundamentalism

I am not offended just didn't think we needed to start throwing out labels like that.. I mean I am pretty sure most of us who agree with what Brigham was trying to teach weren't throwing out labels to those who didn't agree with Brigham.

@Kingdom of Zion. thanks for your input.

I am on here to learn from others and share thoughts and things I have learned and there are a few on here that seem to be on the same page and I enjoy the conversations.

[sandman45]

I'm sorry for your loss ffa. Prayer your way.

yea thats too bad FFA sorry for your loss

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Joseph Smith
“I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to
me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them.” (TPJS, pg. 305) “Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the Kingdom of God, I do not know that you would rise
up and kill me...” (As recalled by Parley P. Pratt in MS 55:585)
“If I was to show the Latter-day Saints all the revelations that the Lord has shown unto me, there is
scarce a man that would stay with me, they could not bear it” (MS 13:257)
“The design of the great God in sending us into this world, and organizing us to prepare us for the
eternal worlds, I shall keep in my own bosom at present.” (HC 5:403. Also see TPJS pg. 30)
“People little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until they see me weighted in the balance in the Kingdom of God. Then they will know who I am, see me as I am. I dare not tell them, and they do not know me.” (Zebedee Coltrin quoting Joseph Smith. See Joseph Smith; The Prophet, The Man pg. 28)
“Brother Brigham, if I was to reveal to this people what the Lord has revealed to me, there is not a man or woman [that] would stay with me.” (Brigham Young quoting Joseph Smith. JD 9:294)

Why would we limit ourselfs to just the cannonized scripture when there is much, much, more to learn? Because some are not ready, some would ignore, some would reject, and some would even murder the prophets for saying anything beyond "cannonized scripture".
But there are some that hunger and thurst for every word, even when it come from a prophet of God like Joseph Smith Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, ...

[sandman45]

Joseph Smith
“I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to
me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them.” (TPJS, pg. 305) “Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the Kingdom of God, I do not know that you would rise
up and kill me...” (As recalled by Parley P. Pratt in MS 55:585)
“If I was to show the Latter-day Saints all the revelations that the Lord has shown unto me, there is
scarce a man that would stay with me, they could not bear it” (MS 13:257)
“The design of the great God in sending us into this world, and organizing us to prepare us for the
eternal worlds, I shall keep in my own bosom at present.” (HC 5:403. Also see TPJS pg. 30)
“People little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until they see me weighted in the balance in the Kingdom of God. Then they will know who I am, see me as I am. I dare not tell them, and they do not know me.” (Zebedee Coltrin quoting Joseph Smith. See Joseph Smith; The Prophet, The Man pg. 28)
“Brother Brigham, if I was to reveal to this people what the Lord has revealed to me, there is not a man or woman [that] would stay with me.” (Brigham Young quoting Joseph Smith. JD 9:294)

Why would we limit ourselfs to just the cannonized scripture when there is much, much, more to learn? Because some are not ready, some would ignore, some would reject, and some would even murder the prophets for saying anything beyond "cannonized scripture".
But there are some that hunger and thurst for every word, even when it come from a prophet of God like Joseph Smith Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, ...

Agreed great quote!

Don't forget the 9th Article of Faith.

We believe all that God has revealed, all that [H]e does now reveal, and we believe that [H]e will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the [K]ingdom of God.

[Alaris]

There are plenty of canonized scriptures that teach us to look beyond the canonized scriptures. The quest for truth and unveiling mysteries need not be shrouded in fear. In my experience those who are led astray by false doctrine are usually the same who are struggling spiritually and looking for something to justify their lusts. I don't say that callously as that applies to people very dear to me.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I don't know how any testimony can be any clearer than these:

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and
he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of
generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and
drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is
diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them,
according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for
their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will
become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea
that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you
at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if
I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD
6:274-275)

“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is
in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God
and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden,
he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his
wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is
MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have
written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with
whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to
tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the
estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However,
I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder
brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the
Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may
hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat
them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or
damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but
a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your
hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam;
when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother
Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church
Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do
without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God.
Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal
History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally
written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is
based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being
the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word
for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when
Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite
literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The
Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and
is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December
16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

Go ahead, argue with Brigham and all eternity on this matter. Or just accept it and be in harmony with with eternal truth.

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as
Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where
was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the
earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the
mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to
pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be!
Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass
him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of
the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys,
and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you
come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it
will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him
say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this
dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see
the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not
concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is
eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom
thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

So I'll go back to these quotes. Again it is black and white what the lineage is:
Elohim - Father of Micheal, Adam Presiding member of this quorum.
God - Micheal, Adam. The Father of this world. The Spirit Father of all who came to this world for mortal probations
The Physical Father of Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ - our eldest spirit brother. The Savior of this world. Became like the Father (perfected) through the atonement and celestial ressurection. Our redeemer and as such, the Father (Michael, Adam) of the next world.

Read and ponder the above quotes, you will eventually become in harmony with eternal truths taught in these quotes.
Before you can be Father, you will first become qualified, and selected to be a Son, the Savoir of a World
After you have saved a world, a new planet will be created and you will populate that planet with the spirits you saved and as Adam, you will take a Wife with you to provide mortal bodies for all your spirit childred.

That is the eternal truth, the pattern of Exaltations and Eternal Lives. One Eternal Round or Generation of Time after another, qualifying ourselfs to become Sons. This is how the Atonement works, it givers all eternity to put ourselfs in harmony With the qualifications of a Son.

Elder Bednar once said the only true relationship we can have with the Savior is to be in absolute and utter awe of who he is and what he has done.
It is awesome that he has walked the same parh that I do now. And it is even more awesome that he is willing to help me with another step toward the end of that path following him! 'Come follow me', he said. I am in awe!

[freedomforall]

I am in awe!

Except that scripture teaches us that our mortal body and spirit once reunited by the resurrection will never again be divided. We will not take upon ourselves another body of any kind.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:17
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

This is not easy to explain away.

[freedomforall]

There are plenty of canonized scriptures that teach us to look beyond the canonized scriptures.

Please provide some most precise scriptural examples. When I make claims I provide sources, or at least try to. It helps everyone get one's point better. Thanks.

[Alaris]

There are plenty of canonized scriptures that teach us to look beyond the canonized scriptures.

Please provide some most precise scriptural examples. When I make claims I provide sources, or at least try to. It helps everyone get one's point better. Thanks.

I'd be happy to.

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Matthew 7:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

D&C 9:7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

D&C 91:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;
2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.
3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.
4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;
5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

Moses 7:63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

Certainly the scriptures don't list out what all these things are - we must discover them.

Alma 30:44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

The planets all bear witness of the Supreme Creator - their deep symbols are mysteries that must be discovered. John Pratt does excellent work attempting to decipher these deep symbols that bear record of not only the supreme creator but his plan and works.

Here are some more from our dispensation head:

Joseph Smith:
"The things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out."

"There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen."

"When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by the weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief."

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected- ... ing-church

Certainly that last quote should be considered by many here who try to shut people down with whom they disagree.

D&C 88: 118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.