LDS Culture Problem

[LucianAMD]

They cannot wear sandles to church, why do women?

Whoa, who said we couldn't wear sandals to church?

Lol, I have never seen it and it happens to be something my husband pointed out. I think he would love to wear flip flops with his suit.

Flip flops at church are the best. I recommend it.

[MMbelieve]

Whoa, who said we couldn't wear sandals to church?

Lol, I have never seen it and it happens to be something my husband pointed out. I think he would love to wear flip flops with his suit.

If he would love to then maybe he should.

Perhaps he should. I think of those members in Samoa or tonga and they wear flip flops and wraps instead of suits. Our dress code certainly is cultural. One thing that bothers me alot is that men are expected to wear ties. If it gets pulled on he's choked. Who ever thought of a tie...?

[Alaris]

Whoa, who said we couldn't wear sandals to church?

Lol, I have never seen it and it happens to be something my husband pointed out. I think he would love to wear flip flops with his suit.

If he would love to then maybe he should.

Perhaps he should. I think of those members in Samoa or tonga and they wear flip flops and wraps instead of suits. Our dress code certainly is cultural. One thing that bothers me alot is that men are expected to wear ties. If it gets pulled on he's choked. Who ever thought of a tie...?

Nephi probably wore sandals to church.

Moses wore sandals to the temple, and Aaron wore elf shoes!

http://media.ldscdn.org/images/media-li ... lpaper.jpg

[Irrelevant]

Whoa, who said we couldn't wear sandals to church?

Lol, I have never seen it and it happens to be something my husband pointed out. I think he would love to wear flip flops with his suit.

If he would love to then maybe he should.

Perhaps he should. I think of those members in Samoa or tonga and they wear flip flops and wraps instead of suits. Our dress code certainly is cultural. One thing that bothers me alot is that men are expected to wear ties. If it gets pulled on he's choked. Who ever thought of a tie...?

I started wearing bowties a couple of years ago, and suspenders sometimes. I got so tired of wearing a suit every week. It's nice to have a choice and not feel like I'm wearing a uniform (done enough of that in my life). Funny thing is I've heard only good things about that. My beard, on the other hand... Lucifer himself may get a better reception, as long as he was clean shaven.

[MMbelieve]

That's the problem, you cant scold or say anything to an LDS female because they are taught all their lives that they are princesses and perfect and do no wrong. And most Bishops actually believe this.

Actually, you cannot call out people because people in general don't respond well to that. Has nothing to do with being a princess anymore than it has to do with a prince. Guys sure as heck don't like being told they are wrong or need to change something. Does this make them a prince? And they are perfect and can do no wrong?

[MMbelieve]

Lol, I have never seen it and it happens to be something my husband pointed out. I think he would love to wear flip flops with his suit.

If he would love to then maybe he should.

Perhaps he should. I think of those members in Samoa or tonga and they wear flip flops and wraps instead of suits. Our dress code certainly is cultural. One thing that bothers me alot is that men are expected to wear ties. If it gets pulled on he's choked. Who ever thought of a tie...?

I started wearing bowties a couple of years ago, and suspenders sometimes. I got so tired of wearing a suit every week. It's nice to have a choice and not feel like I'm wearing a uniform (done enough of that in my life). Funny thing is I've heard only good things about that. My beard, on the other hand... Lucifer himself may get a better reception, as long as he was clean shaven.

I say rock the beard and bow tie! Love it. The suits definately get boring (to look at). If guys were more.colorful maybe less attention would be on the women.

[Michelle]

I can't believe how often this topic comes up.

It calls to mind a website I stumbled upon accidentally one day where LDS women who lost their testimonies discussed how to undermine the faith of other women by creating questions that could be used to derail Relief Society and Sunday School lessons.

I no longer believe this is an honest attempt to create a more Christ-like culture, but an attempt to undermine the faith of those who seek to improve. If you are actually deceived by this propaganda, I am sorry for you. There is no place in the gospel for tearing down those who stretching themselves and reaching higher. We have been counseled to lengthen our stride.

If you are intentional in your intent to destroy testimonies I rebuke you.

I have an apostate father who created a website to help people leave the church. He harasses missionaries at temple square. I know what I'm speaking of.

Again, if you are actually deceived by those who would undermine your testimony I would suggest do as we have been counseled and immerse yourself in the scriptures and words of the prophets.

Edited for typos. I know I saw another one, but I can't find it now. Have at it. Lol.

[brianj]

I started wearing bowties a couple of years ago, and suspenders sometimes. I got so tired of wearing a suit every week. It's nice to have a choice and not feel like I'm wearing a uniform (done enough of that in my life). Funny thing is I've heard only good things about that. My beard, on the other hand... Lucifer himself may get a better reception, as long as he was clean shaven.

PLEASE tell me that you aren't wearing those clip on atrocities!

[Michelle]

Are there really so many people who believe that their neighbors dress modestly, choose uplifting entertainment and eschew caffeinated soda just to spite them?

Do you really think they sit around on Saturday night in some secret saints club judging your Facebook feed and assigning you to your final kingdom?

Becoming a Zion people is not a race to the bottom. It is not the fault of those trying to become Christ-like that some people feel uncomfortable at church. Stop looking for offense and start looking at the actual scriptures and words of the prophets. Stop taking one phrase from one general conference talk and pretending it is the whole story on judging! Stop it! (See what I did there? Lol)

Seriously, we are a church of converts. That is great. It means new people are finding the gospel everyday. It also means we bring a lot of traditions with us and every member born in the church or that has newly found it HAS to judge the traditions of their fathers against the gospel of Christ and leave behind anything and everything that doesn't fit. Granted, that will take all of us more than a lifetime to accomplish, but to act like there is such a thing as too healthy, too modest, too committed to uplifting entertainment just because the church doesn't put out a weekly " thou shalt not" list is a little disingenuous.

You want to wear a purple shirt to pass the sacrament? Drink Coke? Watch R-rated movies? Fine. Just don't be surprised if you find other members starting threads online about the frustrating LDS culture where people are trying so hard to fit into Babylon that the salt is losing its savor and there isn't enough leavening left to keep the callings filled in the ward.

[gardener4life]

I did realize earlier that we start comments like the church says or the church does this or that...

And we need to separate the definition better when we speak about things by saying either church leaders, the church as a whole, or church members. Usually when people complain they are referring to church members that fall short, but people accidentally get misled that to mean or imply church leaders, or the whole church.

I also think I will be more conscious of defining between the 3 of them.

[gardener4life]

I can't believe how often this topic comes up.

It calls to mind a website I stumbled upon accidentally one day where LDS women who lost their testimonies discussed how to undermine the faith of other women by creating questions that could be used to derail Relief Society and Sunday School lessons.

I no longer believe this is an honest attempt to create a more Christ-like culture, but an attempt to undermine the faith of those who seek to improve. If you are actually deceived by this propaganda, I am sorry for you. There is no place in the gospel for tearing down those who stretching themselves and reaching higher. We have been counseled to lengthen our stride.

If you are intentional in your intent to destroy testimonies I rebuke you.

I have an apostate father who created a website to help people leave the church. He harasses missionaries at temple square. I know what I'm speaking of.

Again, if you are actually deceived by those who would undermine your testimony I would suggest do as we have been counseled and immerse yourself in the scriptures and words of the prophets.

Edited for typos. I know I saw another one, but I can't find it now. Have at it. Lol.

I had to comment on this. There are actually people that do this; learning scriptures to bash Mormons and there's a growing number of them right here in Utah! One day I went on a hike with 2 relatives that were close to me. One hadn't been to church in awhile and the other one had fought his father since he was born on practically everything. I was amazed though when the one who had fought his father on practically everything started quoting scriptures left and right to the other relative and myself while on the hike. It was terrible! Rather than looking up scriptures to help people he'd been going over them with his friends on how to bash Mormons and how to argue the word of wisdom against them by trying to point out loopholes or faults, all of which was complete nonsense.

The biggest proof however was that this guy I knew he didn't believe in mormonism or even christianity, yet there he is quoting scriptures to undermine and trick people. He'd also done this a few times with other relatives to try to manipulate them. Why would someone let someone trick and manipulate them out of their faith when it's obvious that person is attacking and manipulating the listener?! But people do let themselves get tricked. In their hearts I think they just are using the excuses to have a cheap way out and it's sad.

Sadly there are people like this. When we quote scriptures we aren't arguing with people, we just want to help them. And we don't ever try to destroy someone or their faith.

[Irrelevant]

I started wearing bowties a couple of years ago, and suspenders sometimes. I got so tired of wearing a suit every week. It's nice to have a choice and not feel like I'm wearing a uniform (done enough of that in my life). Funny thing is I've heard only good things about that. My beard, on the other hand... Lucifer himself may get a better reception, as long as he was clean shaven.

PLEASE tell me that you aren't wearing those clip on atrocities!

Ha ha, no. I would never wear a clip on neck tie, so I learned to tie a bowtie. It's really not hard.

[Irrelevant]

I'll bite, and I'll try to be as clear as I can be so there will be no need to read into or parse my words.
Are there really so many people who believe that their neighbors dress modestly, choose uplifting entertainment and eschew caffeinated soda just to spite them?
I do not care how my neighbor chooses to live the Gospel. What they put into their mind and body (or do not) is their business. If someone did make these kinds of choices to spite me I wouldn't know- because I do not care.

Do you really think they sit around on Saturday night in some secret saints club judging your Facebook feed and assigning you to your final kingdom?
No. No Saturday night club, just the gossip network. Do you honestly believe that no one Facebook stalks members to see what they're doing?


Becoming a Zion people is not a race to the bottom. It is not the fault of those trying to become Christ-like that some people feel uncomfortable at church. Stop looking for offense and start looking at the actual scriptures and words of the prophets. Stop taking one phrase from one general conference talk and pretending it is the whole story on judging! Stop it! (See what I did there? Lol)
I agree but I think we see it differently.
I'm not assigning blame. Those who are trying to be more Christ-like aren't the issue; It's those who pass judgement on and belittle members who do not live the Gospel the way they think they should. This thread is about us holding our members to our own personal standards (or traditions) and looking down on them when they fall short.

Seriously, we are a church of converts. That is great. It means new people are finding the gospel everyday. It also means we bring a lot of traditions with us and every member born in the church or that has newly found it HAS to judge the traditions of their fathers against the gospel of Christ and leave behind anything and everything that doesn't fit. Granted, that will take all of us more than a lifetime to accomplish, but to act like there is such a thing as too healthy, too modest, too committed to uplifting entertainment just because the church doesn't put out a weekly " thou shalt not" list is a little disingenuous.
I have yet to see someone here "act like there is such a thing as too healthy, too modest, too committed to uplifting entertainment"- maybe I just read past it. I can't speak for anyone else but I'll say that for me (as clearly as possible) I do not care how other members keep commandments. They do not have to pass by me to gain exaltation. While I hope they make good decisions because I love them, it is none of my business. As long as their choices do not infringe there's no problem.
You want to wear a purple shirt to pass the sacrament? Drink Coke? Watch R-rated movies? Fine. Just don't be surprised if you find other members starting threads online about the frustrating LDS culture where people are trying so hard to fit into Babylon that the salt is losing its savor and there isn't enough leavening left to keep the callings filled in the ward.
That's fine. I wish my chapel was full of people who weren't prefect by LDS tradition standards and those who weren't even by God's standards, but were trying to become so. I hate to see people who are new or returning, who have so much to contribute but are not yet strong in testimony (or who maybe cannot yet tell the difference between doctrine and preference and so rely on what members say), be criticized for not wearing the right color shirt, not shaving, not wearing a tie, etc- basically just not adhering to LDS tradition or falling in line. I've seen so many be worn down by it and give up. It is heartbreaking.

Funny thing about leaven, it's a "pervasive influence that modifies something or transforms it for the better." Pervasive meaning, "(especially of an unwelcome influence or physical effect) spreading widely throughout an area or a group of people." Could it be that it's the very people who do not fall in line with the traditions but who try to keep the commandments who could act as a leavening agent? I think so.

[creator]

I started wearing bowties a couple of years ago, and suspenders sometimes. I got so tired of wearing a suit every week. It's nice to have a choice and not feel like I'm wearing a uniform (done enough of that in my life). Funny thing is I've heard only good things about that. My beard, on the other hand... Lucifer himself may get a better reception, as long as he was clean shaven.

Lucifer probably is clean shaven

I stopped wearing ties a few years ago. And Jesus still loves me.

[passionflower]

I started wearing bowties a couple of years ago, and suspenders sometimes. I got so tired of wearing a suit every week. It's nice to have a choice and not feel like I'm wearing a uniform (done enough of that in my life). Funny thing is I've heard only good things about that. My beard, on the other hand... Lucifer himself may get a better reception, as long as he was clean shaven.

Lucifer probably is clean shaven

I stopped wearing ties a few years ago. And Jesus still loves me.

He loves everybody. Even men who wear ties to church. Being loved by Jesus is not a personal achievement.

It is more important to be trusted than to be loved. Trust is something that must be earned but the love of God is freely given. And it alone can't save you.

Can Jesus trust you? With what?

My DH, who always wears a tie and white shirt to all his church meetings, says, "it is not what you do, but why you are doing it."

[Irrelevant]

I started wearing bowties a couple of years ago, and suspenders sometimes. I got so tired of wearing a suit every week. It's nice to have a choice and not feel like I'm wearing a uniform (done enough of that in my life). Funny thing is I've heard only good things about that. My beard, on the other hand... Lucifer himself may get a better reception, as long as he was clean shaven.

Lucifer probably is clean shaven

I stopped wearing ties a few years ago. And Jesus still loves me.

He loves everybody. Even men who wear ties to church. Being loved by Jesus is not a personal achievement.

It is more important to be trusted than to be loved. Trust is something that must be earned but the love of God is freely given. And it alone can't save you.

Can Jesus trust you? With what?

My DH, who always wears a tie and white shirt to all his church meetings, says, "it is not what you do, but why you are doing it."

I agree with what your husband says.

[brianj]

I started wearing bowties a couple of years ago, and suspenders sometimes. I got so tired of wearing a suit every week. It's nice to have a choice and not feel like I'm wearing a uniform (done enough of that in my life). Funny thing is I've heard only good things about that. My beard, on the other hand... Lucifer himself may get a better reception, as long as he was clean shaven.

PLEASE tell me that you aren't wearing those clip on atrocities!

Ha ha, no. I would never wear a clip on neck tie, so I learned to tie a bowtie. It's really not hard.

When someone says learning to tie a bow tie is too hard I look at them like they are a complete idiot. The knot used to tie a bow tie is exactly the same as the knot we all use to tie our shoes, so when someone says they can't tie a bow tie they are telling me they don't know how to tie their own shoes.

[Red]

Thanks for the post. I chimed in on irrelevants thread if that's the one I'm thinking of. I too feel there are serious problems with LDS culture. In my experience the problems I've seen are specifically detailed as warnings in the book of Mormon where the church starts to struggle with the pride cycle and start over emphasizing material possession and envying and strife ensues.

On the other end of the spectrum the extra laws of righteousness also bother me that I personally have mostly seen in Utah. Not only is caffeine the devil but soda is the devil!

One is a pride problem... Well maybe both are but different flavors and different ends of the spectrum. One is a fundamental lack of heart in the gospel and one is way too much heart past the mark.

I would like to say something about bikinis and yoga pants. As a man I can tell you that both, while they may not be specifically outlawed, do lead to impure thoughts in men. If you could be a man for a day if for no other reason than to blend in with non lds men and hear the gawking and comments the are made when a woman wearing yoga pants walks by. You might just never wear them again...or the bikini. There is a commandment to love your neighbor as yourself... Difficult to do across genders as the empathy levels are not the same but please believe me. You are loving men as God loves by dressing modestly.

I had no idea yoga pants were a problem.

[Red]

If you could be a man for a day if for no other reason than to blend in with non lds men and hear the gawking and comments the are made when a woman wearing yoga pants walks by. You might just never wear them again...or the bikini.

I am a man, and I love my wife and I cleave unto her and don't care what others wear. Those gawking men have their own problems, I'm sure. Though I do understand your point, and in a sense I agree with you. But for me, just seeing a woman's stomach means nothing. But that's not my point. My point is the judgement people pass on bikini wearing adult women.

First of all, it's not a sin. Second, it's a personal choice each woman should make for herself. For adults, the church does not define modesty is not defined by the difference between a 1 and 2 piece bathsuit. As I mentioned in my first post, this was only ever written in the For the Strength of Youth document, which has be revised many times and now it's taken out completely. And lastly, most of these things I've (we've) been discussing are quite trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Makes me think: men can walk around in swim trunks and topless and they are Not required to wear a rash guard, but women have to wear a tankini top or one piece.

[Red]

I just want to note that some of the women out there who wear the most "modest" clothing are the quickest to take them off and many who might attract a stare when they walk by are quite modest where it counts.

THANK YOU! I was growing so weary of all the hatefulness and overgeneralization that I very nearly posted a picture of myself in a bikini just to make the prudes squirm.

[Red]

I started wearing bowties a couple of years ago, and suspenders sometimes. I got so tired of wearing a suit every week. It's nice to have a choice and not feel like I'm wearing a uniform (done enough of that in my life). Funny thing is I've heard only good things about that. My beard, on the other hand... Lucifer himself may get a better reception, as long as he was clean shaven.

Lucifer probably is clean shaven

I stopped wearing ties a few years ago. And Jesus still loves me.

He probably can't grow a beard as a punishment from God. ;)

[Red]

I'm married, have kids, hold a current temple recommend, held and hold callings in leadership .. the typical LDS person I suppose. However, I have one major problem with our community (not our faith). I hate our culture! Not all of it, I say that mostly for the shock and awe factor. 

Let me explain. We have counsel on Word of Wisdom, modesty, R-rated movies, monthly temple attendance, all great counsel. But we need to stop citing things as Thus saith the Lord. We have created this culture that has some people actually believing Mormons shouldn't or can't watch an R-rated movies or drink caffeine or wear a 2 piece bathing suit. All of which is nonsense. There is nothing doctrinal about any of these things (and many more I haven't mentioned). I am not suggesting it's bad advice to adhere to these ideas. But that's all they are, advice. 

In 1986 at the Priesthood session of General Conference Ezra Taft Benson gave the talk now called "To the Youth of the Noble Birthright". He specifically says "Tonight I would like to speak directly to you young men of the Aaronic Priesthood" he goes on to say he's grateful the fathers are there. But clearly says he's speaking to the Aaronic Priesthood. It's in this talk that he counsels young men to not watch R-rated movies. Even if you take this as doctrine, it's counsel for the YM. Therefore, it's not going to prevent anyone from getting a temple recommend. It's well known (and often discussed on the is site) you are not asked about this during temple recommend interviews. To add to this, YM are not even asked about this during their limited use temple recommend interviews. 

In 1965 the For the Strength of Youth was written and specifically talked about Young Women not wearing bikinis. Today's it's not so clear. Either way this is great counsel for YW. And if adults want to follow this counsel, great! But there is nothing doctrinal about it, concerning adults. Of course, setting examples are important. I'm not arguing that. These 2 examples I discussed (movies and bikinis) are for youth. Adults don't need to be governed so tightly that we have doctrine on such trivial aspects of our life. 

Families or couples/people that don't attend ward functions/parties are sometimes considered active but not fully invested or engaged. I have known couples that are antisocial and never attend things like ward Christmas parties or weddings of people they've known for years. Or maybe they don't volunteer to drive kids to girls/scout camp. Or they don't help with "name a LDS event". Often they are looked at just slightly different. People will say, "I'm not sure if they have a strong testimony." And "I saw Sister Jane Doe on Facebook, she and her husband went to Hawaii and she wore a bikini." As if that's a sin! 

We have created a culture that expects obedience to made up ideas. I didn't even get into monthly temple attendance or caffeine, but that's obvious. And for what it's worth, I don't drink caffeine. But I choose not to because of health reasons. Not because some ridiculous culture suggests I shouldn't. I wish we all would stop these shameful judgements that are passed on others especially when they are doctrinally incorrect. This post isn't because I feel judged or feel confused or bad about any situation. It's because I see others deeply affected by this culture that exists within our faith. It needs to stop. 

Pay your tithing, go to the temple when you can, do your home/visiting teaching and fulfill your calling as best as you can. Obey the commandments and love your family and neighbors. Everything else is just noise. Even if you aren't judging others on some of these examples I have mentioned, but you are talking about them as doctrine, you are causing a problem. Stop it

Sweety D, I will tell you, there is nothing more freeing than ignoring the Mormon culture and doing as you please (Don't have a heart attack Molly and Joe Mormon). I don't do anything bad, I simply follow the spirit. There have been PG-13 movies I've turned off and R movies I watched to the end. I teach my children the same thing. I let them have their choices. If I don't guide them in choosing now, they'll go berserk when they're "legal" adults. If they practice now under my guidance so I can help them recognize the prompting of the spirit, they'll make better choices when I can't "make" them do things. So sometimes they make bad choices, but they figure it out pretty quick on their own what would've been the better choice, and I don't have to be the bad guy.

I have had the wonderful fortune of being in a ward/stake with very few judgemental people. I have had the misfortune of being in a very judgmental ward/stake as well. The judgmental stake is torn apart with bitterness and divorce. My hometown ward is literally severed in two, as in the congregation literally divides themselves in the building during sacrament- all because two women who were best friends got into a cat fight and everyone chose sides. This is the same ward in which they drove numerous families away because they judged the mothers' choices in attire. Which is the greater sin? The Mormon culture can be damning, sadly.

[Alaris]

If you could be a man for a day if for no other reason than to blend in with non lds men and hear the gawking and comments the are made when a woman wearing yoga pants walks by. You might just never wear them again...or the bikini.

I am a man, and I love my wife and I cleave unto her and don't care what others wear. Those gawking men have their own problems, I'm sure. Though I do understand your point, and in a sense I agree with you. But for me, just seeing a woman's stomach means nothing. But that's not my point. My point is the judgement people pass on bikini wearing adult women.

First of all, it's not a sin. Second, it's a personal choice each woman should make for herself. For adults, the church does not define modesty is not defined by the difference between a 1 and 2 piece bathsuit. As I mentioned in my first post, this was only ever written in the For the Strength of Youth document, which has be revised many times and now it's taken out completely. And lastly, most of these things I've (we've) been discussing are quite trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Makes me think: men can walk around in swim trunks and topless and they are Not required to wear a rash guard, but women have to wear a tankini top or one piece.

Because men and women are equal and the same in every way and even are visually stimulated the same way. Modesty is a true principle for men too but due to the nature of men.... You know where I'm going with this. It's common sense. How many women struggle with pornography?

Yoga pants are extremely immodest. I don't want to know what you look like one shade away from being naked nor what you look like in underwear as a bikini is equally as modest. Please save the pics for your husband.

[gardener4life]

Just to add a comment, it is absolutely proven from credible sources and even LDS sources that pornography is just as much a woman problem as it is a men problem.

[Alaris]

Just to add a comment, it is absolutely proven from credible sources and even LDS sources that pornography is just as much a woman problem as it is a men problem.

How so my friend?