LDS Culture Problem

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Lizzy60
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Lizzy60 »

A few weeks ago a Primary teacher in n my ward taught the 8-yr-olds about vegan diets as part of her lesson on the Word of Wisdom. She had child-friendly colorful posters displayed in her classroom that illustrated how one can get enough protein and calcium from non-animal sources. I have photos......

I don't know how her lesson went, as I'm not in the loop, so to speak.

Also, when my daughter went to girls camp a number of years ago, all the girls had to wear sleeves 100% of the time, including sleeved T-shirts over their one-piece swimsuits.

MMbelieve
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Posts: 5072

Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by MMbelieve »

Lizzy60 wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:33 pm A few weeks ago a Primary teacher in n my ward taught the 8-yr-olds about vegan diets as part of her lesson on the Word of Wisdom. She had child-friendly colorful posters displayed in her classroom that illustrated how one can get enough protein and calcium from non-animal sources. I have photos......

I don't know how her lesson went, as I'm not in the loop, so to speak.

Also, when my daughter went to girls camp a number of years ago, all the girls had to wear sleeves 100% of the time, including sleeved T-shirts over their one-piece swimsuits.
The primary lesson was out of line but I'm not concerned about the girls camp unless the boys had to wear shirts with sleeves too....wait, it was GIRLS camp. Geez, way to put body shame on already vulnerable teens.

We didn't have rules except to wear a one piece for both girls camp or coed trips to the beach.

Michelle
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Michelle »

MMbelieve wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:43 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:33 pm A few weeks ago a Primary teacher in n my ward taught the 8-yr-olds about vegan diets as part of her lesson on the Word of Wisdom. She had child-friendly colorful posters displayed in her classroom that illustrated how one can get enough protein and calcium from non-animal sources. I have photos......

I don't know how her lesson went, as I'm not in the loop, so to speak.

Also, when my daughter went to girls camp a number of years ago, all the girls had to wear sleeves 100% of the time, including sleeved T-shirts over their one-piece swimsuits.
The primary lesson was out of line but I'm not concerned about the girls camp unless the boys had to wear shirts with sleeves too....wait, it was GIRLS camp. Geez, way to put body shame on already vulnerable teens.

We didn't have rules except to wear a one piece for both girls camp or coed trips to the beach.
Modesty is not "body shaming." My kids ( boys and girls) wear swim shirts and shorts while swimming, every time, even backyard sprinklers. They make swim shirts and shorts and lots of people buy them, not just LDS, sheesh.

Is it really such a burden to be modest? What is the draw to running around in underwear just because you intend to get wet or exercise?

I see women who are literally wearing a bra and panty in public, who otherwise wouldn't runaround in underwear totally fine because it has a different name: bikini. So weird that two opposing ideas can be held in the same single brain. One might call it :" lying to oneself."

MMbelieve
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Posts: 5072

Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by MMbelieve »

Michelle wrote: August 9th, 2017, 11:28 pm
MMbelieve wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:43 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:33 pm A few weeks ago a Primary teacher in n my ward taught the 8-yr-olds about vegan diets as part of her lesson on the Word of Wisdom. She had child-friendly colorful posters displayed in her classroom that illustrated how one can get enough protein and calcium from non-animal sources. I have photos......

I don't know how her lesson went, as I'm not in the loop, so to speak.

Also, when my daughter went to girls camp a number of years ago, all the girls had to wear sleeves 100% of the time, including sleeved T-shirts over their one-piece swimsuits.
The primary lesson was out of line but I'm not concerned about the girls camp unless the boys had to wear shirts with sleeves too....wait, it was GIRLS camp. Geez, way to put body shame on already vulnerable teens.

We didn't have rules except to wear a one piece for both girls camp or coed trips to the beach.
Modesty is not "body shaming." My kids ( boys and girls) wear swim shirts and shorts while swimming, every time, even backyard sprinklers. They make swim shirts and shorts and lots of people buy them, not just LDS, sheesh.

Is it really such a burden to be modest? What is the draw to running around in underwear just because you intend to get wet or exercise?

I see women who are literally wearing a bra and panty in public, who otherwise wouldn't runaround in underwear totally fine because it has a different name: bikini. So weird that two opposing ideas can be held in the same single brain. One might call it :" lying to oneself."
Please don't get me wrong, modesty is needed and required of members of this church and it does not body shame.
What does body shame though (getting one to view their body negatively) is requiring excessive modesty (beyond obvious physical differences) to only one gender. The girls at girls camp we already in swim suits and they were likely one piece suits. Why did they have to add a t-shirt? And it's girls camp, no boys. But of course I wasn't there and it's not my story so only responding to what she mentioned.

In my opinion, board shorts would be most needed as the swim bottom is so tightly cut that it doesn't cover enough.

Put your self in the mind of a budding 13 year old girl. Requiring excessive modesty does cause shame. Already likely more covered the general public then asked to put a shirt on? She will wonder why or look at herself as something she needs to hide.

Irrelevant
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Irrelevant »

What we are talking about here is personal opinion of what is and is not modest. It's fine to have "higher standards", which means nothing more than how we interpret standards. If we begin to hold others to our own version, where is the line? For me and my family, we feel that there are one piece swim suits that are modest. If you choose to have your children wear shorts and a shirt to swim because you feel like they should cover up, that's fine. It's a personal choice. I would never think ill of you or scoff.

I'm not saying Michelle is judging anyone but I'll use her example. A person may choose to cover up with shorts and a shirt and see it as a "higher law" or "higher standards" (maybe like at girls camp above) but then look down on those who do not do the same. There are plenty of people out there who would look down on these people for being immodest. Many Christians see shorts as immodest and prohibit men to wear them. Also, women must wear full length dresses. Are these considered "higher standards"?

My point is that we tend to make so many things God has left to our personal interpretation and agency into a formula for all to follow. We like rules and boxes.

Gage
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Gage »

Wait what? Are you saying that teaching a girl to cover up is detrimental to her self esteem? So a girl must be allowed to show some skin or she develops anxiety, depression, and hates her body?

MMbelieve
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by MMbelieve »

Gage wrote: August 10th, 2017, 9:45 am Wait what? Are you saying that teaching a girl to cover up is detrimental to her self esteem? So a girl must be allowed to show some skin or she develops anxiety, depression, and hates her body?
Not exactly gage. Your over simplifying it to sound bad.

It is very true that there is body shame for women in this society. Not all societies have this problem. You didn't grow up as a woman being taught that your body is a sexual thing used by others and you have to be careful not to elicit that sexuality. Which is pretty much impossible.
This does cause a level of shame and anxiety over ones body. It's a body first and foremost and no one should be ashamed of their bodies because society tells you that the body you have is a temptation and sexual object to half the population.

Girls and women should be modest and cover up their bodies to avoid accentuating or purposefully displaying their sexuality or availability. Same for guys. There is a way to be modest and look nice without going overboard.

Kids do not have the same views/maturity as adults do. So placing adult mindsets onto girls is damaging. It's early sexualization.
Why don't we just teach our boys and girls that it's proper to cover our private parts of our bodies and to respect others privacy.

MMbelieve
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by MMbelieve »

Michelle wrote: August 9th, 2017, 11:28 pm
MMbelieve wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:43 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:33 pm A few weeks ago a Primary teacher in n my ward taught the 8-yr-olds about vegan diets as part of her lesson on the Word of Wisdom. She had child-friendly colorful posters displayed in her classroom that illustrated how one can get enough protein and calcium from non-animal sources. I have photos......

I don't know how her lesson went, as I'm not in the loop, so to speak.

Also, when my daughter went to girls camp a number of years ago, all the girls had to wear sleeves 100% of the time, including sleeved T-shirts over their one-piece swimsuits.
The primary lesson was out of line but I'm not concerned about the girls camp unless the boys had to wear shirts with sleeves too....wait, it was GIRLS camp. Geez, way to put body shame on already vulnerable teens.

We didn't have rules except to wear a one piece for both girls camp or coed trips to the beach.
Modesty is not "body shaming." My kids ( boys and girls) wear swim shirts and shorts while swimming, every time, even backyard sprinklers. They make swim shirts and shorts and lots of people buy them, not just LDS, sheesh.

Is it really such a burden to be modest? What is the draw to running around in underwear just because you intend to get wet or exercise?

I see women who are literally wearing a bra and panty in public, who otherwise wouldn't runaround in underwear totally fine because it has a different name: bikini. So weird that two opposing ideas can be held in the same single brain. One might call it :" lying to oneself."
I agree with the bikini thing. Often they cover much less than underware does. But they are careful not to walk around in underware outside but ya, a bikini is fine. It's a mindset of what is acceptable. It makes no sense otherwise.

I remember going to the beach as a teenager and once you got to the coast, everything changed. No one really cares anymore what people are looking like or wearing, unless they are a weirdo or draw attention by being huge and not fitting in their suit. It's a different mindset kind of like when we walk into the temple, we act better and are kinder and quieter. It's just a mindset and we all do it here and there.

I do not know where you live but I let my son and even tell him to take his shirt off to get some sunshine for vit d. We have long winters and too short of summers here and everyone is vit d low. It's important that we let our selves get the sunshine we need to be healthy especially at your own home. I would let my daughter do the same if I had one. I wouldn't ever put my daughter in a bikini top when she has nothing to cover. That's a weird mindset too.

Modesty is a frame of mind, it's not about following the written words or checking a box, it's about being a modest person. A modest person wouldn't be immodest. And running around outside during summer without a shirt for young kids is not immodest. They are kids. But of course, they only really need to do that about 15min. Day in the summer time to get their vit d.

In case you are wondering, I am a very modest person and always have been.

The key is to be modest in mindset. Then you don't have to measure lengths or see if what you wear or do falls within the guidlines. It is harder to teach children to be modest in mindset if they aren't naturally inclined to be modest. It's then that we have to be careful to not add shame to them. Or we run into problems this church tend to have with kids going off to college and living the other side of the values they grew up with.

It's something that is difficult in a sinful world. We need women and men to be modest and we also need society to stop sexualizing to the extreme we have today.

Gage
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Gage »

I was being a bit sarcastic because that is what we teach young girls today. Moms take selfies with parts of herself hanging out the sides with a big smile saying "be happy with your body no matter what size you are. It used to be women that were not so fit would not dare wear anything revealing, nowadays it doesn't matter what size a woman is.

Fiannan
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Fiannan »

Gage wrote: August 10th, 2017, 12:08 pm I was being a bit sarcastic because that is what we teach young girls today. Moms take selfies with parts of herself hanging out the sides with a big smile saying "be happy with your body no matter what size you are. It used to be women that were not so fit would not dare wear anything revealing, nowadays it doesn't matter what size a woman is.
Careful, there are people here who might believe obesity is perfectly okay with God. Others have fallen for the SJW feminist line that fat is a form of feminist expression.

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Elizabeth
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Elizabeth »

I am a woman and have never been ashamed of my body, it is only common sense and normal to endeavour to be healthy and attractive, and stupid to overeat, to drink and eat that which is unhealthy or to allow oneself to become obese. Modesty is a virtue for both men and women.

Juliet
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Juliet »

MMbelieve wrote: August 10th, 2017, 1:46 am
Michelle wrote: August 9th, 2017, 11:28 pm
MMbelieve wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:43 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: August 9th, 2017, 3:33 pm A few weeks ago a Primary teacher in n my ward taught the 8-yr-olds about vegan diets as part of her lesson on the Word of Wisdom. She had child-friendly colorful posters displayed in her classroom that illustrated how one can get enough protein and calcium from non-animal sources. I have photos......

I don't know how her lesson went, as I'm not in the loop, so to speak.

Also, when my daughter went to girls camp a number of years ago, all the girls had to wear sleeves 100% of the time, including sleeved T-shirts over their one-piece swimsuits.
The primary lesson was out of line but I'm not concerned about the girls camp unless the boys had to wear shirts with sleeves too....wait, it was GIRLS camp. Geez, way to put body shame on already vulnerable teens.

We didn't have rules except to wear a one piece for both girls camp or coed trips to the beach.
Modesty is not "body shaming." My kids ( boys and girls) wear swim shirts and shorts while swimming, every time, even backyard sprinklers. They make swim shirts and shorts and lots of people buy them, not just LDS, sheesh.

Is it really such a burden to be modest? What is the draw to running around in underwear just because you intend to get wet or exercise?

I see women who are literally wearing a bra and panty in public, who otherwise wouldn't runaround in underwear totally fine because it has a different name: bikini. So weird that two opposing ideas can be held in the same single brain. One might call it :" lying to oneself."
Please don't get me wrong, modesty is needed and required of members of this church and it does not body shame.
What does body shame though (getting one to view their body negatively) is requiring excessive modesty (beyond obvious physical differences) to only one gender. The girls at girls camp we already in swim suits and they were likely one piece suits. Why did they have to add a t-shirt? And it's girls camp, no boys. But of course I wasn't there and it's not my story so only responding to what she mentioned.

In my opinion, board shorts would be most needed as the swim bottom is so tightly cut that it doesn't cover enough.

Put your self in the mind of a budding 13 year old girl. Requiring excessive modesty does cause shame. Already likely more covered the general public then asked to put a shirt on? She will wonder why or look at herself as something she needs to hide.
When I was a teen, I hated swimming suits. But if I were to wear a t-shirt, I would be the odd one out. But, I was already pretty ashamed of my body by that time. I honestly thought to look at my body myself when I wasn't dressed was a sin. Then I thought to even wash or touch myself was a sin. Later on I realized I was ashamed because I was sexually abused as a kid. I always had a very innate sense to be modest at all times and in all things and in all places because I understood the real threat of molestation. As long as there are perverts around, there is danger around. Young women ought to be taught about the real dangers around. It is not like I was the only girl who had the problem of being sexually abused. I remember helping my other young women friends through the pain of getting raped. It is very naive to not teach young women the dangers, not because they are bad, but because bad guys are bad.

It really is righteous pride and self respect to be modest, understand your value sexually, and not let it leak out to the public all over the place.

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Red
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Red »

Some of you make me very grateful that I don't care what people wear. And grateful that I don't care about what people think about what I wear. What a wonderful thing to not have that burden among all the others I can't control!

Crackers
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Crackers »

Red wrote: August 11th, 2017, 12:45 pm Some of you make me very grateful that I don't care what people wear. And grateful that I don't care about what people think about what I wear. What a wonderful thing to not have that burden among all the others I can't control!
With the number of times on this thread that you've referred to "prudes," I think you do care.

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Red
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Red »

Crackers wrote: August 11th, 2017, 2:36 pm
Red wrote: August 11th, 2017, 12:45 pm Some of you make me very grateful that I don't care what people wear. And grateful that I don't care about what people think about what I wear. What a wonderful thing to not have that burden among all the others I can't control!
With the number of times on this thread that you've referred to "prudes," I think you do care.
How many times is that?

Crackers
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Crackers »

Don't have the time or the inclination to count. Why don't you? It may be a useful exercise for you.

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captainfearnot
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by captainfearnot »

Michelle wrote: August 9th, 2017, 11:28 pm I see women who are literally wearing a bra and panty in public, who otherwise wouldn't runaround in underwear totally fine because it has a different name: bikini. So weird that two opposing ideas can be held in the same single brain. One might call it :" lying to oneself."
Is every woman who wears a one-piece swimsuit also lying to herself because she wouldn't otherwise run around in underwear or lingerie that covers the same amount of skin, i.e. a bodysuit or a teddy?

Michelle
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Michelle »

captainfearnot wrote: August 11th, 2017, 5:43 pm
Michelle wrote: August 9th, 2017, 11:28 pm I see women who are literally wearing a bra and panty in public, who otherwise wouldn't runaround in underwear totally fine because it has a different name: bikini. So weird that two opposing ideas can be held in the same single brain. One might call it :" lying to oneself."
Is every woman who wears a one-piece swimsuit also lying to herself because she wouldn't otherwise run around in underwear or lingerie that covers the same amount of skin, i.e. a bodysuit or a teddy?
Sure. I personally wear a 2 piece, the top covers as much as a shirt, the bottoms look like a skirt with shorts underneath. These are not the short skirt/underwear type Walmart sells, I bought them off the internet.

I am as modest swimming as when wearing regular clothes. I can run in the grocery store to it from the pool without raising eyebrows.

MMbelieve
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by MMbelieve »

Fiannan wrote: August 10th, 2017, 1:23 pm
Gage wrote: August 10th, 2017, 12:08 pm I was being a bit sarcastic because that is what we teach young girls today. Moms take selfies with parts of herself hanging out the sides with a big smile saying "be happy with your body no matter what size you are. It used to be women that were not so fit would not dare wear anything revealing, nowadays it doesn't matter what size a woman is.
Careful, there are people here who might believe obesity is perfectly okay with God. Others have fallen for the SJW feminist line that fat is a form of feminist expression.
Everywhere I look, I see just as many out of shape and fat men as I do women, especially in the church. It's like men in the church have a natural distain for weight lifting or being fit.

Can you please stop focusing all you fat comments towards women. Men are fat too.

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captainfearnot
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by captainfearnot »

Michelle wrote: August 11th, 2017, 6:12 pm Sure. I personally wear a 2 piece, the top covers as much as a shirt, the bottoms look like a skirt with shorts underneath. These are not the short skirt/underwear type Walmart sells, I bought them off the internet.

I am as modest swimming as when wearing regular clothes. I can run in the grocery store to it from the pool without raising eyebrows.
Right, I'm clear on what you choose to do. I'm asking if you judge your fellow Mormon women who choose not to be as modest as you while swimming as harshly as you judge women who wear bikinis.

If you were a BYU student and took a swimming PE class, you would be required to wear a standard one-piece swimsuit. It clearly falls within the LDS standard of modesty. You are certainly free to take it further if you choose (well, unless you want to swim in a BYU pool that is) but I think the church is putting out a pretty clear signal that modesty is situational and depends on context, not the absolute standard you seem to believe it to be.

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LucianAMD
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by LucianAMD »

Good thing you all weren't around when Isaiah was preaching naked. Some of you would have stoned him for being immodest.

Fiannan
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Fiannan »

MMbelieve wrote: August 11th, 2017, 9:18 pm
Fiannan wrote: August 10th, 2017, 1:23 pm
Gage wrote: August 10th, 2017, 12:08 pm I was being a bit sarcastic because that is what we teach young girls today. Moms take selfies with parts of herself hanging out the sides with a big smile saying "be happy with your body no matter what size you are. It used to be women that were not so fit would not dare wear anything revealing, nowadays it doesn't matter what size a woman is.
Careful, there are people here who might believe obesity is perfectly okay with God. Others have fallen for the SJW feminist line that fat is a form of feminist expression.
Everywhere I look, I see just as many out of shape and fat men as I do women, especially in the church. It's like men in the church have a natural distain for weight lifting or being fit.

Can you please stop focusing all you fat comments towards women. Men are fat too.
I don't. In fact obesity is probably why overall testosterone levels have plummeted in men as well as their ability to make babies. However, if you think my mentioning of feminist SJWs shifts the context to women all I have to say is that there are no movements in our society that are saying that we need to ban advertisements that show fit men or that fat men are "curvy" and should be seen as the ideal or that fat men are an expression of liberation.

Fiannan
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Fiannan »

LucianAMD wrote: August 11th, 2017, 11:15 pm Good thing you all weren't around when Isaiah was preaching naked. Some of you would have stoned him for being immodest.
If people read the Book of Esther carefully they would realize that artistic representations of Esther as a woman wearing modest robes and such is as far from accurate as one can get. The woman who refused to party naked with her husband was Vashti and rabbis traditionally felt that her behavior was bad because she refused a request from her husband.

Michelle
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Michelle »

captainfearnot wrote: August 11th, 2017, 9:49 pm
Michelle wrote: August 11th, 2017, 6:12 pm Sure. I personally wear a 2 piece, the top covers as much as a shirt, the bottoms look like a skirt with shorts underneath. These are not the short skirt/underwear type Walmart sells, I bought them off the internet.

I am as modest swimming as when wearing regular clothes. I can run in the grocery store to it from the pool without raising eyebrows.
Right, I'm clear on what you choose to do. I'm asking if you judge your fellow Mormon women who choose not to be as modest as you while swimming as harshly as you judge women who wear bikinis.

If you were a BYU student and took a swimming PE class, you would be required to wear a standard one-piece swimsuit. It clearly falls within the LDS standard of modesty. You are certainly free to take it further if you choose (well, unless you want to swim in a BYU pool that is) but I think the church is putting out a pretty clear signal that modesty is situational and depends on context, not the absolute standard you seem to believe it to be.

I don't actually judge a person for the suit they are wearing, (or if they drink caffeine or have a tattoo, or wear a purple shirt to pass the sacrament) only God is allowed to judge our hearts and make final judgement. I judge their actions in relationship to what do I do? That question is usually answered by an appeal to the Spirit with a prayer in my heart.

Making righteous judgements rarely requires me say anything to the person who's engaging in disproving behavior. Exceptions would be my own children, because that is part of my job as their mom, to teach and correct them.

But yeah, when the kids and I get home, if needed, we will probably take some time to make clear our family standards. To understand what the prophets and apostles have said about such things.

If you teach your kids anything, you have to make a judgement in order to choose what to teach them. This is not wrong. This is called being a parent.

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