LDS Culture Problem

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drtanner
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by drtanner »

The attitude of let them do what they want goes against the counsel from the scriptures, "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Both with those being judgmental and those needing loving counsel or correction.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make em drink. (But you can put salt in there oats.) We are asked by the savior himself to be salt, and there are lots of ways to do this with compassion if love is the motive. Point being we have an obligation as his disciples to DO something vs. sitting back and watching both of these scenarios play out IMHO.
Last edited by drtanner on August 4th, 2017, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Michelle
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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kittycat51 wrote: August 4th, 2017, 10:27 am
GreenDay wrote: August 4th, 2017, 3:31 am I completely agree with the original poster that there is a huge culture problem and I will add judgemental problem in our church.
Some of these comments disgust me. Kick out the yw that dress immodestly??? Are you kidding me?? Isn't our church supposed to be Christ centered and Christlike? My daughters wear dresses a few inches above the knee and this is the kind of judgement that makes me sick. When I was the yw president all I wanted was for the youth to feel loved. Judgement free zone. We get so caught up on judging one another rather than being like Christ and loving everyone. My daughter is one of the most Christ like people you will ever meet and it would be your loss to pass judgement on her for having a shorter skirt. I will add that I dress modestly (and cute) and my husband is not addicted to porn smh.
Seriously get over yourselves people. This is exactly why people with weak testimonies leave the church. Imagine a non member seeing some of the comments on this thread. I would hate for one of my non member friends to think we are all like this.
My dad once said if someone walked into the church building smelling like smoke he would do the opposite of most people. He would get closer and welcome the person with open arms. This should be the case in every situation. You can't control others and what they do and wear so if it's an issue for you then learn to control your thoughts.
Just curious do you have teenage sons? As a mother of all boys and several adults at that, I have heard plenty from them throughout the years about girls immodest dress at church. (and school) YES I teach my boys proper principles on morality and personal cleanliness through thoughts and actions. They have always been good boys and it shows though their actions. It doesn't mean that they are perfect and can constantly control those thoughts. Young Women should be helpful in this matter, and care about the impact they might have on the Young Men by how they dress. (likewise father's should be teaching their daughters to NEVER sit on a Young Man's lap, NEVER)

I have heard one of my teenage son's group of friends comment one time on girls and how they dress at church... they HATE it. HOW are they supposed to concentrate on spiritual matters in Sunday school when the girl across from them has a skirt on that barely covers her rear end and then sits with her legs in a manner that is revealing? Are the boys supposed to keep their eyes closed the whole time? They should NOT have to feel uncomfortable in church at all.

This type of dress does reflect on the parents most importantly on the mother. I do not buy into the "can't find anything appropriate". I have never worn short skirts/dresses that did not come down to my knee at least. Mind you I'm nearly 5'10" which makes it harder to find long enough clothes, but hey I have managed through the years, and have always felt empowered by my modest dress. Others should be able to also. My parents were quite strict with my siblings and I while growing up. We couldn't wear bikinis or halter tops. When you allow as parents your young daughter to wear skimpy clothes, when does it become all of a sudden inappropriate? Little toddler girls with sun-dresses on at church with spaghetti straps, is cute and all, but as older girls it's not appropriate. When do you draw the line? I say start early and start smart as parents. Then when the time comes and hopefully that is something they are preparing for, when they go through the temple it won't be a shock when they have to throw out most of their wardrobe because its all immodest and doesn't cover their garments. Of course there will always be those who also tuck, and pull up their garments to mold to their outfits. (These are usually the ones who choose not to dress so as teenagers as well)

Having said this, still I would much rather girls come to church dressed inappropriately than not at all. I'm sure your daughter is a great person.

BTW, our school has a dress code that would not allow half the stuff I see a church. What is the difference? Why not allow it at school but hey it's ok in church?

A great talk I read years ago that impacted me when i was serving in the YW was by Elder Christofferson. He was spot on in my mind. https://www.lds.org/liahona/2006/06/a-s ... d?lang=eng
A while back a young woman from another state in the United States came to live with some of her relatives for a few weeks. On her first Sunday she came to church dressed in a simple, nice blouse and knee-length skirt set off with a light, button-up sweater. She wore hose and dress shoes, and her hair was combed simply but with care. Her overall appearance created an impression of youthful grace.

Unfortunately, she immediately felt out of place. It seemed like all the other young women her age or near her age were dressed in casual skirts, some rather distant from the knee; tight T-shirt–like tops that barely met the top of their skirts at the waist; no socks or stockings; and clunky sneakers or flip-flops.

One would have hoped that seeing the new girl, the other girls would have realized how inappropriate their manner of dress was for a chapel and for the Sabbath day and immediately changed for the better. Sad to say, however, they did not, and it was the visitor who, in order to fit in, adopted the fashion of her host ward.

This example illustrates one of my concerns. Speaking of society in general, I am afraid that many of my generation have not taught your generation to have a feeling for sacred things. In this article I hope to help you refine your ability to recognize what is sacred and to respond with reverence for all that is holy. Of the many sacred things for which we should show reverence—the scriptures, prophets, one’s body, Deity—I will focus on respect for sacred places and events.

Much of what I want to convey cannot really be passed from one person to another. It must grow from within. But if I can help you think about some things, the Spirit may work in you so you will not need anyone to tell you what is sacred or how to respond—you will feel it for yourself. It will be part of your nature; indeed, much of it already is.

Sunday Best

Our temples and meetinghouses are dedicated to the Lord as sacred space. On each temple is found the words Holiness to the Lord—the House of the Lord. A sense of the sacred should lead us to act and speak with reverence in and around these buildings. It would lead us to dress a certain way when we are there.

As immodest dress dishonors the body—God’s most sacred creation—immodest, casual, or sloppy dress and grooming at sacred times and places mocks the sacredness of the Lord’s house and what is taking place.

Years ago my ward in Tennessee used a high school for Church services on Sundays while our chapel, which had been damaged by a tornado, was being repaired. A congregation of another faith used the same high school for their worship services while their new chapel was being constructed.

I was shocked to see what the people of this other congregation wore to church. There was not a suit or tie among the men. They appeared to have come from or to be on their way to the golf course. It was hard to spot a woman wearing a dress or anything other than very casual pants or even shorts. Had I not known that they were coming to the school for church meetings, I would have assumed that there was some kind of sporting event taking place.

The dress of our ward members compared very favorably to this example, but I am beginning to think that we are no longer quite so different as more and more we seem to slide toward that lower standard. We used to use the phrase “Sunday best.” People understood that to mean the nicest clothes they had. The specific clothing would vary according to different cultures and economic circumstances, but it would be their best.

It offends God when we come into His house, especially on His holy day, not groomed and dressed in the most careful and modest manner that our circumstances permit. Where a member from the hills of Peru must cross a river to get to church, the Lord surely will not be offended by the stain of muddy water on his white shirt. But how can God not be pained at the sight of one who, with all the clothes he needs and more and with easy access to the chapel, nevertheless appears in church in rumpled cargo pants and a T-shirt?

It has been my experience as I travel around the world that members of the Church with the least means somehow find a way to arrive at Sabbath meetings neatly dressed in clean, nice clothes, the best they have, while those who have more than enough are the ones who may appear in casual, even sloppy clothing.

Does Dress Matter?

Some say dress and hair don’t matter—they say it’s what’s inside that counts. I believe that it is what’s inside a person that truly counts, but that’s what worries me. Casual dress at holy places and events is a message about what is inside a person. It may be pride or rebellion or something else, but at a minimum it says, “I don’t get it. I don’t understand the difference between the sacred and the profane.”

In that condition people are easily drawn away from the Lord. They do not appreciate the value of what they have. I worry about them. Unless they can gain some understanding and capture some feeling for sacred things, they are at risk of eventually losing all that matters most. You are a Saint of the great latter-day dispensation—look the part.

These principles apply to activities and events that are sacred or that deserve reverence: baptisms, confirmations, ordinations, blessings of the sick, administration of the sacrament, and so forth. The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that in the ordinances of the priesthood “the power of godliness is manifest” (D&C 84:20). I appreciate priests, teachers, and deacons who wear ties and dress shirts (white, if possible) to officiate in the administration of the sacrament. They are demonstrating an appreciation and respect for God and for the event.

Recently I read a note from a man who was urging his companions to wear a suit and tie when they appeared together at a public event honoring their organization. Their service was civic, not religious in nature, and we would not term it sacred, but he understood the principle that some things deserve respect and that our manner of dress is a part of that expression. He said he was going to dress more formally “not because I’m important, but because this occasion is so important.” His comment states an important truth. It is really not about us. Acting and dressing in a way to honor sacred events and places is about God.

Blessings of Reverence

When you develop a deepening reverence for sacred things, the Holy Spirit becomes your frequent and then constant companion. You grow in understanding and truth. The scriptures speak of it as a light that grows “brighter and brighter until the perfect day” (D&C 50:24). That process is also described as progressing from grace to grace. The Savior Himself progressed in that way until He received a fulness, and you may follow in His footsteps (see D&C 93:12–20). That is where a sense of the sacred will lead you.

On the other hand, those who do not appreciate holy things will lose them. Absent a feeling of reverence, they will grow increasingly casual in attitude and conduct. They will drift from the moorings that their covenants with God could provide. Their feelings of accountability to God will diminish and then be forgotten. Thereafter, they will care only about their own comfort and satisfying their uncontrolled appetites. Finally, they will come to despise sacred things, even God, and then they will despise themselves.

Treat Sacred Things with Care


Always remember, as holiness grows within and you are entrusted with greater knowledge and understanding, you must treat these things with care. The Lord said, “That which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit” (D&C 63:64). He also commanded that we must not cast pearls before swine or give that which is holy to dogs (see 3 Ne. 14:6; D&C 41:6), meaning sacred things should not be discussed with those who are not prepared to appreciate their value.

Be wise with what the Lord gives you. It is a trust. You would not, for example, share the content of your patriarchal blessing with just anyone.

All things sacred and holy are to be revealed and brought together in this last and most wonderful dispensation. With the Restoration of the gospel, the Church, and the priesthood of Jesus Christ, we hold an almost incomprehensible store of sacred things in our hands. We cannot neglect or let them slip away.

Rather than letting your life drift into carelessness, may it be one of increasing exactness in obedience. I hope you will think and feel and dress and act in ways that show reverence and respect for sacred things, sacred places, sacred occasions. It is my prayer that a sense of the sacred will distill upon your soul as the dews from heaven. May it draw you close to Jesus Christ, who died, who was resurrected, who lives, who is your Redeemer. May He make you holy as He is holy.
Amen! Amen! Amen!

Thank you for finding this article!

Michelle
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Michelle »

Bottom line:

We can almost anywhere today and find people, even whole groups of people, who support homosexuality, immodesty, and other inappropriate behaviors. Who judge no one so that they aren't judged for their sins.

Where can we turn for peace? Where can we find something different?

The LDS church is suppose to be that place. We worry about the rebellious leaving the gospel because they feel judged, what about those seeking truth who come to an LDS chapel and just see the same world they find outside. If the salt has lost is savor, they won't even know the salt is available here.

When it comes to being the coolest, funnest and having the most pleasure. We lose. That is Satan's realm, but what he doesn't have and never can is the Spirit. No one can compete with the Spirit that MAY be present if we are living fully the counsel of our leaders and listening to the Spirit.
How will those looking for truth, something different from what the world offers, ever learn about the saving ordinances, priesthood authority, and eternal families if they don't first see something different that encourages them to stay and learn more?

No, I will not be convinced that looking and acting the like world is the best way to lead people to Christ. It is only by being a peculiar people that our differences, good differences, can be see and lead someone to learn more.

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marc
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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Well, ancient Israelite sinners never stopped sinning and the Pharisaical never stopped stoning. Then they were all wiped out.

Gage
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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I know why the 20 somethings young women dress immodestly is to attract men and to be the most attractive women in the room to make other women jealous, however a younger teen who just thinks its cool, hip, fashionable, cute, should be taught by her parents the reasons against immodest dress. The scripture that says something like the older women in the church should teach the younger, I dont think it was talking about how to bake a casserole. Now would these "teachers" be judging these younger women?

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Jonesy
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.(1 Timothy 2)
I think modesty has more to do with presenting ourselves with simplicity and humility than sexuality and nudity. In marriage, I think nudity is perfectly modest. Maybe that's how we should teach it.

However, the purpose of clothes, in this sense, is for regard of others. Others, in their weakness, take issue with nudity and such. By all means, share in their weakness that they may be brought to Christ!

I only had one issue in all my life in this regard. I was in YSA, and a young lady asked me if I could button up my middle button. I was wearing a polo! But of course I complied. Bringing ourselves to any attention is not modesty, as Paul teaches.

Fiannan
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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Gage wrote: August 4th, 2017, 12:02 pm I know why the 20 somethings young women dress immodestly is to attract men and to be the most attractive women in the room to make other women jealous, however a younger teen who just thinks its cool, hip, fashionable, cute, should be taught by her parents the reasons against immodest dress. The scripture that says something like the older women in the church should teach the younger, I dont think it was talking about how to bake a casserole. Now would these "teachers" be judging these younger women?
Feminists are joining with Islamicists to push for more "modesty" and cities across Europe are banning "immodest and or sexist" ads -- like featuring a woman in a bikini. I will note that the first lesson on modesty on earth was delivered by Satan to Adam and Eve -- in fact, Satan was technically the first fashion designer on earth.

Sure, appropriateness is important and I think people should dress conservatively in Church meetings. How they dress in other environments is different and I teach that to my kids. In fact, my daughters noted recently that the bikinis they wore to a swimming event were the most conservative there. A leader last year told my wife that it is not worth fighting over bikinis anymore; losing battle. My personal opinion? If I was a widower and came down with a terminal illness, and had a choice between letting a relative who was super-strict on fashion or another that was more lenient, and both were LDS and equal in all respects, I would choose the latter to raise my kids because I have seen kids raised in super-strict environments go way to the other side once they reach 18.

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Red
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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Gage wrote: August 4th, 2017, 8:49 am 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Matthew Chapter 7

You should probably back off and not criticize someone else's little girl.


Your twisting of the real meaning behind these scriptures is why we have a nation full of homosexuals and the names of 2 men on marriage certificates.
Your rudeness and ignorance is why our world has become a horrible place.

Fiannan
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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Gage wrote: August 4th, 2017, 12:02 pm I know why the 20 somethings young women dress immodestly is to attract men and to be the most attractive women in the room to make other women jealous, however a younger teen who just thinks its cool, hip, fashionable, cute, should be taught by her parents the reasons against immodest dress. The scripture that says something like the older women in the church should teach the younger, I dont think it was talking about how to bake a casserole. Now would these "teachers" be judging these younger women?
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Gage
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Gage »

Sure, appropriateness is important and I think people should dress conservatively in Church meetings. How they dress in other environments is different and I teach that to my kids. In fact, my daughters noted recently that the bikinis they wore to a swimming event were the most conservative there. A leader last year told my wife that it is not worth fighting over bikinis anymore; losing battle. My personal opinion? If I was a widower and came down with a terminal illness, and had a choice between letting a relative who was super-strict on fashion or another that was more lenient, and both were LDS and equal in all respects, I would choose the latter to raise my kids because I have seen kids raised in super-strict environments go way to the other side once they reach 18.


I have to agree. I have seen some really humble, God fearing, father fearing girls literally go buck wild once they got away from "mean ol dad". There is a reason for this behavior, especially with young women, however I dare not discuss it here. Anything opposite of "women are wonderful lovely creatures" will definitely get you reprimanded here.

Gage
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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Red wrote: August 4th, 2017, 1:08 pm
Gage wrote: August 4th, 2017, 8:49 am 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Matthew Chapter 7

You should probably back off and not criticize someone else's little girl.


Your twisting of the real meaning behind these scriptures is why we have a nation full of homosexuals and the names of 2 men on marriage certificates.
Your rudeness and ignorance is why our world has become a horrible place.

Well maybe, listen I have a close friend that is gay, but I am not ignorant to whats happening. If you dont think the "acceptance" of homosexuality in society today has not led to more homosexuality than you are mistaken. People do what is fashionable, kids grow up taught homosexuality is normal and ok, so of course they are gona be more susceptible to giving into homosexual "urges" or feelings if they are taught these feelings are normal.

Fiannan
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Fiannan »

Gage wrote: August 4th, 2017, 1:53 pm
Red wrote: August 4th, 2017, 1:08 pm
Gage wrote: August 4th, 2017, 8:49 am 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Matthew Chapter 7

You should probably back off and not criticize someone else's little girl.


Your twisting of the real meaning behind these scriptures is why we have a nation full of homosexuals and the names of 2 men on marriage certificates.
Your rudeness and ignorance is why our world has become a horrible place.

Well maybe, listen I have a close friend that is gay, but I am not ignorant to whats happening. If you dont think the "acceptance" of homosexuality in society today has not led to more homosexuality than you are mistaken. People do what is fashionable, kids grow up taught homosexuality is normal and ok, so of course they are gona be more susceptible to giving into homosexual "urges" or feelings if they are taught these feelings are normal.
This is absolutely true!! The huge push for women to be gay or bisexual has made it trendy, especially with the more attractive ones not wanting to be left out. I have spoken to young women who without embarrassment say they have tried it out, I know one gal who posted in social media that she wanted "to taste the rainbow" which is slang for a heterosexual woman wanting to start experimenting with lesbianism. They see it in porn, they see it on many of the popular TV series aimed at young women, they see it in music videos -- they see it everywhere. And many are at least experimenting with it. This was not the case just a generation ago. And now I am seeing more and more a push for male-male sexual expression in entertainment similar to what was rolled out two decades ago aimed at women. There have even been articles in magazines telling young men that just because they might occasionally have relations with another man that does not make them gay. Sort of like the proverbial "here's a drug, you won't get addicted."

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Red
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Red »

Gage wrote: August 4th, 2017, 1:53 pm
Red wrote: August 4th, 2017, 1:08 pm
Gage wrote: August 4th, 2017, 8:49 am 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Matthew Chapter 7

You should probably back off and not criticize someone else's little girl.


Your twisting of the real meaning behind these scriptures is why we have a nation full of homosexuals and the names of 2 men on marriage certificates.
Your rudeness and ignorance is why our world has become a horrible place.

Well maybe, listen I have a close friend that is gay, but I am not ignorant to whats happening. If you dont think the "acceptance" of homosexuality in society today has not led to more homosexuality than you are mistaken. People do what is fashionable, kids grow up taught homosexuality is normal and ok, so of course they are gona be more susceptible to giving into homosexual "urges" or feelings if they are taught these feelings are normal.
I hate that you're hearing this for the first time, but homosexuality is not new to this century and it hasn't led to more homosexuality. It's been the same as it ever has been since the beginning of time.

Also, you deviate onto random subjects quite often. The homosexuality comment is out of left field. It has nothing to do with you being called out on being rude to other forum members. We can discuss differences without attacking others.

Michelle
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Michelle »

marc wrote: August 4th, 2017, 12:00 pm Well, ancient Israelite sinners never stopped sinning and the Pharisaical never stopped stoning. Then they were all wiped out.
I dislike it when people compare making any verbal statement that may be construed as judgement as casting stones. The pharisees weren't just complaining about behavior, they actually did cast stones and kill people. Not exactly the same as pointing out a contradiction between prophetic counsel and current social norms.

We are counseled to be kind, yes. But we need to stand up for what is right. July 2017 Ensign. The article lists some serious possible consequences (some are already happening) to remaining silent.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/07/reli ... k?lang=eng

"So we need to raise our voices to defend religious freedom. If we don’t raise them for the protection of religion now, vital religious freedoms will be lost.

When we join the cause together, we can make a difference that will protect religious freedom not just for Latter-day Saints but also for followers of all religions."

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marc
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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Michelle wrote: August 4th, 2017, 4:53 pm
marc wrote: August 4th, 2017, 12:00 pm Well, ancient Israelite sinners never stopped sinning and the Pharisaical never stopped stoning. Then they were all wiped out.
I dislike it when people compare making any verbal statement that may be construed as judgement as casting stones. The pharisees weren't just complaining about behavior, they actually did cast stones and kill people. Not exactly the same as pointing out a contradiction between prophetic counsel and current social norms.

We are counseled to be kind, yes. But we need to stand up for what is right. July 2017 Ensign. The article lists some serious possible consequences (some are already happening) to remaining silent.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/07/reli ... k?lang=eng

"So we need to raise our voices to defend religious freedom. If we don’t raise them for the protection of religion now, vital religious freedoms will be lost.

When we join the cause together, we can make a difference that will protect religious freedom not just for Latter-day Saints but also for followers of all religions."
Michelle, there has occurred much more than verbal statements in the last two hundred years. If you haven't seen it or experienced it, then you are more fortunate than others. Fortunately, people aren't stoned anymore or burned at the stake (except in some countries) for religious reasons. Even during and after Jesus fulfilled the law, people were stoned and it was by Pharisaical people of the church. What you have shared does not mean there are no Pharisees in the church. Phariseeism is alive and well.

drtanner
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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We have a decent size ward, the largest in the stake, close to 500 members (300-350 that attend). I know them all for the most part, several very intimately. Most recognize their weaknesses and are at church because they know they need help and support. Blue shirts, beards, and tattoos are welcomed and Immodesty when it distracts has been delt with what I consider in a discrete and kind way. Ward isn't perfect but I would consider them good humble people. I had no idea the burdens most members carried until I started to get to know them. I would say the culture is to try and take the sacrament each week and remember Christ and then learn about him and discuss his gospel in class. What do you see in your wards as the culture?
Last edited by drtanner on August 5th, 2017, 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Yahtzee
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Post by Yahtzee »

drtanner wrote: August 4th, 2017, 11:56 pm We have a decent size ward, the largest in the stake, close to 500 members (300-350 that attend). I know them all for the most part, several very intimately. Most recognize there weaknesses and are at church because they know they need help and support. Blue shirts, beards, and tattoos are welcomed and Immodesty when it distracts has been delt with what I consider in a discrete and kind way. Ward isn't perfect but I would consider them good humble people. I had no idea the burdens most members carried until I started to get to know them. I would say the culture is to try and take the sacrament each week and remember Christ and then learn about him and discuss his gospel in class. What do you see in your wards as the culture?
My current ward is similar. Man, I love my ward!! The people are real. We have real problems and we meet together oft to help lift each other.
In my experience, a lot of the culture problem being complained about is the people who feel like they need to appear "perfect". I've been in those wards. No one talks about how its really hard to pray after losing a family member, or that they're struggling to pay the bills. Or how they don't know how to help their teen whose self esteem is low so their exposing more of their body. So they try to hide what's really going on by pointing fingers at others to draw attention away from themselves. Deep down inside they feel ashamed and letting Christ help them heal would be admitting they failed at something and that's too painful.
My opinion, of course, but that's what I see in some of my friends wards.

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Re: LDS Culture Problem

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I hate that you're hearing this for the first time, but homosexuality is not new to this century and it hasn't led to more homosexuality. It's been the same as it ever has been since the beginning of time.
You kidding me? I have posted in the past a Gallup poll that showed that women 18-30, if I recall right, had a rate of identifying as bisexual that has gone through the roof. Special nightclubs (for heterosexual women!) are opening in metropolitan areas where these women can meet up and have sex with each other. And if you have been to a regular nightclub in the past decade you will see plenty of "party lesbian" behavior.

Yes, there has always been same-sex behavior, look what Ham did to his father Noah when he was drunk, but it has never been so accepted, and experimented in, as today. And please don't make reference to ancient Rome because such behavior was generally isolated within the tiny proportion of the population that was rich. The masses now have porn now have TV now have movies now have music videos and now even cartoons to entice them to give it a try. And we can be sure more than a few who would have married someone of the opposite sex and started a family are today waking up to someone next to them of the same gender.

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Red
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Red »

Fiannan wrote: August 5th, 2017, 12:37 am
I hate that you're hearing this for the first time, but homosexuality is not new to this century and it hasn't led to more homosexuality. It's been the same as it ever has been since the beginning of time.
You kidding me? I have posted in the past a Gallup poll that showed that women 18-30, if I recall right, had a rate of identifying as bisexual that has gone through the roof. Special nightclubs (for heterosexual women!) are opening in metropolitan areas where these women can meet up and have sex with each other. And if you have been to a regular nightclub in the past decade you will see plenty of "party lesbian" behavior.

Yes, there has always been same-sex behavior, look what Ham did to his father Noah when he was drunk, but it has never been so accepted, and experimented in, as today. And please don't make reference to ancient Rome because such behavior was generally isolated within the tiny proportion of the population that was rich. The masses now have porn now have TV now have movies now have music videos and now even cartoons to entice them to give it a try. And we can be sure more than a few who would have married someone of the opposite sex and started a family are today waking up to someone next to them of the same gender.
There ya go! It's simply more accepted. It's always been the same. I won't mention Rome. But how about Asia, the ancient Egyptians, ancient South Americans. It's all documented. You can ignore it or you can accept that the struggles we have today, regardless of what they are, are as old as time. They've always been here. We just have a new thing called tech that makes it more apparent. The point is that people like to think the world is getting worse in paramount strides when it's not. We just have a greater ability to flaunt our behavior and make it known to the world.

Sunain
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Sunain »

gardener4life wrote: August 3rd, 2017, 1:02 am Just to add a comment, it is absolutely proven from credible sources and even LDS sources that pornography is just as much a woman problem as it is a men problem.
Not only that, but I've seen reports saying its even very prevalent with women. So I do agree that the church is focusing the issue way too much on male priesthood holders.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... g-own.html
Sunain wrote: January 19th, 2016, 11:08 pm When I do drink pop, I get ones like A&W that are caffeine free. There are plenty of ways to get pumped up. Exercise I find is a great way.

I would definitely think that while not named, energy drinks such as Red Bull or Monster that add excessive amounts of caffeine are definitely against the spirit of the Word of Wisdom. They have been known to be harmful.
I think we should steer away from caffeine completely. I don't think its an issue that its associated indirectly with the Word of Wisdom. I see members drinking Coca Cola, I just tell them the health issues with it especially the diet versions. To most members of the church and why it's part of the culture, caffeine falls under the drug use portion. Caffeine is harmful added substance to create addiction just like the harder drugs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola ... 3_caffeine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola ... 93_cocaine
Sweety D wrote: July 24th, 2017, 12:48 pm Let me explain. We have counsel on Word of Wisdom, modesty, R-rated movies, monthly temple attendance, all great counsel. But we need to stop citing things as Thus saith the Lord. We have created this culture that has some people actually believing Mormons shouldn't or can't watch an R-rated movies or drink caffeine or wear a 2 piece bathing suit. All of which is nonsense. There is nothing doctrinal about any of these things (and many more I haven't mentioned). I am not suggesting it's bad advice to adhere to these ideas. But that's all they are, advice.
I think if President Benson was alive, I think he'd actually change his quote to no only say rated R but PG-13 or any movie with vulgar content. In the past couple of decades, the things that get filtered down to PG-13 is what used to be R. Nudity and excessive violence are prevalent in PG-13 movies now.
Sweety D wrote: July 24th, 2017, 12:48 pm In 1986 at the Priesthood session of General Conference Ezra Taft Benson gave the talk now called "To the Youth of the Noble Birthright". He specifically says "Tonight I would like to speak directly to you young men of the Aaronic Priesthood" he goes on to say he's grateful the fathers are there. But clearly says he's speaking to the Aaronic Priesthood. It's in this talk that he counsels young men to not watch R-rated movies. Even if you take this as doctrine, it's counsel for the YM.
I completely disagree with your conclusion there. There are plenty of instances in both the Women's General session and the Priesthood sessions of conference that apply to ALL members of the church. Quite often we are instructed to tell our family members and our home teaching families what was said at these conference sessions. This was a prophet of God speaking at a conference session. I think we should heed his council and NOT try to rationalize our disagreement. While it may not be in the scriptures, most R rated movies are bad. There are a few good ones that I think may get rated wrong, but that's few and far between.

As for the bikini modesty issue, the difference between a 1-piece and 2-piece female swimsuit is basically showing the stomach, mid-back and perhaps a bit more cleavage. I don't think it's much of an issue but 2-piece swimsuits are not allowed at church sanctioned events but that's as far as I know it goes. Personally its swimwear. You're going to be underwater swimming mainly. For tanning, a bikini does make more sense, though you then have to worry about skin cancer.

Personally I think that caffeine and high rated movies avoidance in church culture is a good thing! It means we don't always need the prophet or the scriptures to tell us these things are bad and harm our spirits.
Last edited by Sunain on August 5th, 2017, 11:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

Michelle
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Posts: 1795

Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Michelle »

Red wrote: August 5th, 2017, 8:38 am
Fiannan wrote: August 5th, 2017, 12:37 am
I hate that you're hearing this for the first time, but homosexuality is not new to this century and it hasn't led to more homosexuality. It's been the same as it ever has been since the beginning of time.
You kidding me? I have posted in the past a Gallup poll that showed that women 18-30, if I recall right, had a rate of identifying as bisexual that has gone through the roof. Special nightclubs (for heterosexual women!) are opening in metropolitan areas where these women can meet up and have sex with each other. And if you have been to a regular nightclub in the past decade you will see plenty of "party lesbian" behavior.

Yes, there has always been same-sex behavior, look what Ham did to his father Noah when he was drunk, but it has never been so accepted, and experimented in, as today. And please don't make reference to ancient Rome because such behavior was generally isolated within the tiny proportion of the population that was rich. The masses now have porn now have TV now have movies now have music videos and now even cartoons to entice them to give it a try. And we can be sure more than a few who would have married someone of the opposite sex and started a family are today waking up to someone next to them of the same gender.
There ya go! It's simply more accepted. It's always been the same. I won't mention Rome. But how about Asia, the ancient Egyptians, ancient South Americans. It's all documented. You can ignore it or you can accept that the struggles we have today, regardless of what they are, are as old as time. They've always been here. We just have a new thing called tech that makes it more apparent. The point is that people like to think the world is getting worse in paramount strides when it's not. We just have a greater ability to flaunt our behavior and make it known to the world.
Red, I don't think anybody is claiming homosexuality is new. It seems to be part of secret combinations from the beginning. Even before the flood the children of Cain were so convoluted in their relationships apocryphal works say that the wicked stop keeping track of relationships and everybody parents, children, brother, sisters, strangers, etc. had sex with each other.

But just because something has always happened doesn't mean it isn't getting worse. There are definitely more people experimenting and embracing a homosexual activity. 24 years ago homosexuality was not considered normal or acceptable.

"The public national discussion around same-sex marriage first began in 1993 when the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that laws denying same-sex couples the right to marry violated state constitutional equal protection rights unless the state could show a "compelling reason" for such discrimination." http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-serv ... aws.aspx#1

In 1993 Philadelphia with Tom Hanks was released. In 1995 The Family: A Proclamation to the World was read at the General Women's Broadcast. In 1997 Ellen Degeneres came out as gay.

" Before the U.S. Supreme Court ruling on Oct. 6, 2014, declining to hear cases on same-sex marriage, 31 states had either constitutional or statutory provisions that explicitly defined marriage as between a man and a woman" http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-serv ... aws.aspx#1

Since June 26, 2003, sexual activity between consenting adults of the same sex as well as same-sex adolescents of a close age has been legal nationwide, pursuant to the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v. Texas. As of June 26, 2015, all states license and recognize marriage between same-sex couples on account of the Supreme Court decision in Obergefell v. Hodges." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_righ ... ted_States

The first time I ever heard a false argument about the difference between gender and sex was actually on an LDS comment board. At the time I thought, "no one is buying this right?" But they were. Nearly everybody knows someone who is gay and acting on it now and it is distorting our vision of right and wrong. We see people we love and we don't want to believe that their actions will lead to the serious consequences we have been warned of:

"Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true

We are living in an age of history not unlike that of Noah's day. We are witnessing individuals invite the calamities foretold. But unlike the scripture stories, we know these people. They are our friends and family. (My first husband was gay, before it was as accepted as it is now. We divorced in 2001. I'm speaking from personal experience, this isn't just comment board speculation.) We aren't just reading old stories and wondering what we would do. We actually have to decide. Do we stand up for what is right, love the sinner, but hate the sin? Or do we compromise, because we know them. Do we convince ourselves that like 2 Nephi 28:8 "8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."

God loves our family and friends even more than we do, but his mercy is extended to those who seek to overcome their sins and trust in Christ, not those who flaunt their rebellion and seek to convert others to wickedness.

It is common for me to hear people say, "We all sin differently." That is true, but there is a difference between weakness and rebellion. It is one thing to fail as we strive for better and have to try again (that is common), it is another to revel in our wickedness and be proud of it. We all sin, but not all experience godly sorrow for their sin and seek to turn away from it.

brianj
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by brianj »

Sunain wrote: August 5th, 2017, 11:44 am
gardener4life wrote: August 3rd, 2017, 1:02 am Just to add a comment, it is absolutely proven from credible sources and even LDS sources that pornography is just as much a woman problem as it is a men problem.
Not only that, but I've seen reports saying its even very prevalent with women. So I do agree that the church is focusing the issue way too much on male priesthood holders.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... g-own.html
I came across a story claiming that modern pornography is not even designed for men. Unfortunately it didn't have any pictures (I was hoping for PG type pictures) to support the author's claims, but in a nutshell this is what he said: In the '80s and earlier porn was clearly for men because it would have attractive women, average looking to unattractive men, and be filmed in dark environments that would be reminiscent of a cheap hotel room or someplace else the guy could imagine himself taking a woman. However, modern porn is shot in brightly lit environments, typically luxury homes and mansions, with beautiful women wearing expensive jewelry and (at least in the beginning) getting out of an expensive car while wearing expensive designer clothes. His description made modern porn sound like an evolution of the romance novel, and the titles of romance novels consistently seem to indicate the guy is wealthy with high social status. These modern productions don't provide an environment a guy can realistically imagine himself in, instead delivering a woman's fantasy.

Long ago I concluded that pornography is not the men's problem that is so often portrayed to be in church, but a problem for men and women. I have seen research showing the porn consumption rate among women is skyrocketing and am not surprised that it would be produced to appeal more to women. The only surprise to me is that so many church members are incredibly quick to put the blinders on and pretend this is only a problem for men.
Sunain wrote: January 19th, 2016, 11:08 pm When I do drink pop, I get ones like A&W that are caffeine free. There are plenty of ways to get pumped up. Exercise I find is a great way.

I would definitely think that while not named, energy drinks such as Red Bull or Monster that add excessive amounts of caffeine are definitely against the spirit of the Word of Wisdom. They have been known to be harmful.
I think we should steer away from caffeine completely. I don't think its an issue that its associated indirectly with the Word of Wisdom. I see members drinking Coca Cola, I just tell them the health issues with it especially the diet versions. To most members of the church and why it's part of the culture, caffeine falls under the drug use portion. Caffeine is harmful added substance to create addiction just like the harder drugs.
Sorry, but caffeine is a must for me. Cocoa beans are around 0.2% caffeine. I just took a look and found that Coca Cola has about 39 mg of caffeine in a typical 21 ounce fast food cup. Two ounces of semi sweet chocolate contain about 44 mg caffeine - ten times the contents of Coca Cola.

Back when we could check out can sealers from home storage centers I made sure to pack away chocolate chips, chocolate chunks, and chocolate brownie mix. I will continue consuming caffeine as long as i can find chocolate to consume.

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kittycat51
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by kittycat51 »

brianj wrote: August 5th, 2017, 1:41 pm
Sunain wrote: August 5th, 2017, 11:44 am
gardener4life wrote: August 3rd, 2017, 1:02 am Just to add a comment, it is absolutely proven from credible sources and even LDS sources that pornography is just as much a woman problem as it is a men problem.
Not only that, but I've seen reports saying its even very prevalent with women. So I do agree that the church is focusing the issue way too much on male priesthood holders.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... g-own.html
I came across a story claiming that modern pornography is not even designed for men. Unfortunately it didn't have any pictures (I was hoping for PG type pictures) to support the author's claims, but in a nutshell this is what he said: In the '80s and earlier porn was clearly for men because it would have attractive women, average looking to unattractive men, and be filmed in dark environments that would be reminiscent of a cheap hotel room or someplace else the guy could imagine himself taking a woman. However, modern porn is shot in brightly lit environments, typically luxury homes and mansions, with beautiful women wearing expensive jewelry and (at least in the beginning) getting out of an expensive car while wearing expensive designer clothes. His description made modern porn sound like an evolution of the romance novel, and the titles of romance novels consistently seem to indicate the guy is wealthy with high social status. These modern productions don't provide an environment a guy can realistically imagine himself in, instead delivering a woman's fantasy.

Long ago I concluded that pornography is not the men's problem that is so often portrayed to be in church, but a problem for men and women. I have seen research showing the porn consumption rate among women is skyrocketing and am not surprised that it would be produced to appeal more to women. The only surprise to me is that so many church members are incredibly quick to put the blinders on and pretend this is only a problem for men.
Sunain wrote: January 19th, 2016, 11:08 pm When I do drink pop, I get ones like A&W that are caffeine free. There are plenty of ways to get pumped up. Exercise I find is a great way.

I would definitely think that while not named, energy drinks such as Red Bull or Monster that add excessive amounts of caffeine are definitely against the spirit of the Word of Wisdom. They have been known to be harmful.
I think we should steer away from caffeine completely. I don't think its an issue that its associated indirectly with the Word of Wisdom. I see members drinking Coca Cola, I just tell them the health issues with it especially the diet versions. To most members of the church and why it's part of the culture, caffeine falls under the drug use portion. Caffeine is harmful added substance to create addiction just like the harder drugs.
Sorry, but caffeine is a must for me. Cocoa beans are around 0.2% caffeine. I just took a look and found that Coca Cola has about 39 mg of caffeine in a typical 21 ounce fast food cup. Two ounces of semi sweet chocolate contain about 44 mg caffeine - ten times the contents of Coca Cola.

Back when we could check out can sealers from home storage centers I made sure to pack away chocolate chips, chocolate chunks, and chocolate brownie mix. I will continue consuming caffeine as long as i can find chocolate to consume.
That is interesting about the caffeine content in chocolate vs coke. I myself am a chocoholic (100% dark chocolate baby! :ymdevil: ) My hubby addicted to diet brown anything. The difference is this though; his addiction is so much worse. Although we both crave our own versions, if I had to go without I would be fine and survive. He on the other hand would have panic attacks and go through real withdrawal symptoms. The thought of ever going without SCARES the crud out of him. THIS is the problem with drinking caffeine. It can become a real addiction. Is drinking coke/pepsi against the Word of Wisdom? No I don't think so. BUT it certainly is when it becomes a I can't literally live without addiction. Moderation in all things. Thus in my mind many members are breaking the WofW when they drink their caffeine of choice. My advice to them would be to stock up your drink of choice. When the crap hits the fan and you can't get to the gas station for a refill you better darn have a supply backup. There will be many freaked out members out there going without.

Fiannan
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Fiannan »

Red, I don't think anybody is claiming homosexuality is new. It seems to be part of secret combinations from the beginning. Even before the flood the children of Cain were so convoluted in their relationships apocryphal works say that the wicked stop keeping track of relationships and everybody parents, children, brother, sisters, strangers, etc. had sex with each other.
Not surprised. If people were young for hundreds of years one can just imagine, if they had rejected moral principles, how much they would explore.

And I agree with you. Homosexuality has been around a long time but generally it was concentrated in the upper classes, and even there (as in Rome) it was more an affair than actual coupling. Modern conveniences have given people more leisure time and mass media has spread ideas far and wide. And media does have effects on people.

Sunain
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Re: LDS Culture Problem

Post by Sunain »

brianj wrote: August 5th, 2017, 1:41 pm Sorry, but caffeine is a must for me. Cocoa beans are around 0.2% caffeine. I just took a look and found that Coca Cola has about 39 mg of caffeine in a typical 21 ounce fast food cup. Two ounces of semi sweet chocolate contain about 44 mg caffeine - ten times the contents of Coca Cola.

Back when we could check out can sealers from home storage centers I made sure to pack away chocolate chips, chocolate chunks, and chocolate brownie mix. I will continue consuming caffeine as long as i can find chocolate to consume.
It's the additive part of soda pop that's an issue. There is no reason to add it to pop other than to get people addicted, just like a drug. Chocolate can be addictive too though but I don't think it's close to the scale that soda pop is in North America. I don't think chocolate is a Word of Wisdom issue like chocolate chips, dark chocolate, ect. Energy drinks are even worse for caffeine than pop and that's where members like me think it crosses the line. You can get plenty of soda pops without added caffeine. Caffeine can give that drug buzz as well as withdrawal symptoms.

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