LDS Culture Problem

[passionflower]

If you could be a man for a day if for no other reason than to blend in with non lds men and hear the gawking and comments the are made when a woman wearing yoga pants walks by. You might just never wear them again...or the bikini.

I am a man, and I love my wife and I cleave unto her and don't care what others wear. Those gawking men have their own problems, I'm sure. Though I do understand your point, and in a sense I agree with you. But for me, just seeing a woman's stomach means nothing. But that's not my point. My point is the judgement people pass on bikini wearing adult women.

First of all, it's not a sin. Second, it's a personal choice each woman should make for herself. For adults, the church does not define modesty is not defined by the difference between a 1 and 2 piece bathsuit. As I mentioned in my first post, this was only ever written in the For the Strength of Youth document, which has be revised many times and now it's taken out completely. And lastly, most of these things I've (we've) been discussing are quite trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Whoops! Sorry Sweety D. Your handle... Plus I'm not used to LDS men saying anything that can be constituted as pro bikini. False conclusion on my part.

Bikinis are essentially underwear. That said if I were to publicly shame someone outside my own family for wearing a Bikini that would also be wrong. So I agree with what you're saying to a degree.

That said I promise there were no bikinis or yoga pants in Enoch's ZION nor will there be in the New Jerusalem. You heard it here first folks.

So my question is how do we get from where we are now to of one heart and one mind on the matter? Certainly if we just stick to the letter of the law alone we will never be of one heart and one mind. The spirit of the law HAS to unify us eventually. Now how do we get there?

By getting down to the principle of the thing. " I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves" (JS)

[passionflower]

I just wanted to add that on the other hand, being self governing doesn't give us license to become " a law unto ourselves" in using our own good judgement. Proper self governance is based on correct principles. The correct principle comes first, then we govern ourselves based on that.

[Crackers]

I don’t think it is inherently pharisaical to try to live the spirit of the law in addition to the letter. A pharisaical spirit is one of pride. Most people of my acquaintance who look for ways to grow and develop themselves to be more like Christ (i.e., live the spirit of the law) tend to take the approach of Passionflower, and just keep quiet. I hear people disparaging bikini wearers and soda drinkers (for example) much less often than I hear snarky comments about the individual or family who is trying to cut out sugar (or meat or soda), or dresses much more modestly than is the norm, or who opts to keep the Sabbath when they travel (goodness gracious), etc., etc.

Why do we care so much what others are doing? When I am centered on my Savior, and making genuine efforts to repent and become more like Him, my judgements and criticisms of others wane considerably, even disappear, because I am acting more like Him, and have more love and charity for others, as He does. If we would all focus on Him more than each other, Zion would not be too far away (sans bikinis).

[Irrelevant]

I don’t think it is inherently pharisaical to try to live the spirit of the law in addition to the letter. A pharisaical spirit is one of pride. Most people of my acquaintance who look for ways to grow and develop themselves to be more like Christ (i.e., live the spirit of the law) tend to take the approach of Passionflower, and just keep quiet. I hear people disparaging bikini wearers and soda drinkers (for example) much less often than I hear snarky comments about the individual or family who is trying to cut out sugar (or meat or soda), or dresses much more modestly than is the norm, or who opts to keep the Sabbath when they travel (goodness gracious), etc., etc.
I pretty much agree with you except I'd like to point out here that like cross fit enthusiasts with cross fit and fighter pilots with flying, when some people dramatically change their diet(from my own experience- maybe it's the exception) that's all they talk about. And they (some) are critical of everyone who doesn't juice or cut out soda or sugar or whatever the new thing is. That's when I notice people get critical of them. Who would even know about someone's food choices anyway, unless they told people?

I'll also say that it's been my experience that those who do or even make reference to drinking soda, eating sugar, watching R rated movies, etc get ridiculed far more often than those who choose to be more strict than the commandments (but keep it to themselves). For examples, just read some of the comments on threads similar to this one.
Why do we care so much what others are doing? When I am centered on my Savior, and making genuine efforts to repent and become more like Him, my judgements and criticisms of others wane considerably, even disappear, because I am acting more like Him, and have more love and charity for others, as He does. If we would all focus on Him more than each other, Zion would not be too far away (sans bikinis).

I totally agree with the last part! I could not care less how other members choose to interpret commandments and guidance from leaders and how to keep them as long as it does not infringe on me and my family. Salvation is personal. This beam in my eye requires too much of my effort for me to worry about everyone else's motes.

Edited for typos (can't stand those things).

[Alaris]

I just wanted to add that on the other hand, being self governing doesn't give us license to become " a law unto ourselves" in using our own good judgement. Proper self governance is based on correct principles. The correct principle comes first, then we govern ourselves based on that.

Glenn Beck, love him or hate him, has been saying this for years. Unite on principles.

Another thought on this topic... I used to watch R rated movies all the time when I was younger.... I still do on occasion when my judgement deems it appropriate (13 hours.) As I have strengthened my spirit, my knowledge, and my testimony, rated R movies just don't "fit" anymore. I think some key elements to unite our minds and hearts:

1. Hungering and thirsting for righteousness and knowledge.
2. Humility

When 1 is a top priority and 2 is present we can much more easily unite on principle... In my very humble opinion

[Fiannan]

I just wanted to add that on the other hand, being self governing doesn't give us license to become " a law unto ourselves" in using our own good judgement. Proper self governance is based on correct principles. The correct principle comes first, then we govern ourselves based on that.

Glenn Beck, love him or hate him, has been saying this for years. Unite on principles.

Another thought on this topic... I used to watch R rated movies all the time when I was younger.... I still do on occasion when my judgement deems it appropriate (13 hours.) As I have strengthened my spirit, my knowledge, and my testimony, rated R movies just don't "fit" anymore. I think some key elements to unite our minds and hearts:

1. Hungering and thirsting for righteousness and knowledge.
2. Humility

When 1 is a top priority and 2 is present we can much more easily unite on principle... In my very humble opinion

The stuff on network TV is far more dangerous to the spirit than most R-rated movies. And I would even say this about children's networks too.

[MMbelieve]

I just wanted to add that on the other hand, being self governing doesn't give us license to become " a law unto ourselves" in using our own good judgement. Proper self governance is based on correct principles. The correct principle comes first, then we govern ourselves based on that.

Glenn Beck, love him or hate him, has been saying this for years. Unite on principles.

Another thought on this topic... I used to watch R rated movies all the time when I was younger.... I still do on occasion when my judgement deems it appropriate (13 hours.) As I have strengthened my spirit, my knowledge, and my testimony, rated R movies just don't "fit" anymore. I think some key elements to unite our minds and hearts:

1. Hungering and thirsting for righteousness and knowledge.
2. Humility

When 1 is a top priority and 2 is present we can much more easily unite on principle... In my very humble opinion

I have noticed the same thing in my life with my music choices. I can't stand to listen to much of what I did as a teenager.

I would like to add a thought to you list of things. I think that alot of the reason that people judge and are critical of what others are doing in the church and even society is because it is affecting someone they know or themselves in a negative or threatening way.

If our husbands never were tempted by immodesty, we wouldn't judge those who show some skin now and then as "bad women". If we didn't (as women) compare ourselves with eachother on physical matters in an attempt to be top female, then a woman being immodest wouldn't cause us (as women) to be jealous or upset with them.

Immodesty doesn't matter one stinking bit unless you tie it to sexuality and sin, which is OUR fault for being imperfect humans driven by such things.

Also, to become a zion people all at once wouldn't happen. We all will grow and mature and understand at different stages of life. So I believe that adding respect to your list is fitting.

Not respect in the don't judge kind of way but respect in the sense of a community or family respect. Like women won't walk around near naked just because they aren't sexualizing their body and think others are bad for doing so. Instead she will dress modestly for the sake of OTHERS in a show of respect to them being aware that not everyone has her same mentality or maturity about the human body. Respecting that we are surrounded by people who are all at different stages in life and will view the exact same situation a hundred different ways.

Keep the standards and develop understanding of the "why".

Respect to our brothers and sisters will be needed and should come naturally as we progress ourselves.
It's false to claim that we are above such worldly thinking and carry on as we please saying everyone else has the problem when in fact that mentality is the problem.

[Alaris]

Relevant video on why bikinis are bad. I'm not one hundred percent in agreement with Denis Prager but he offers intelligent, thoughtful perspectives on male female dynamics few are brave enough to explore:

https://youtu.be/dlZsGpWJmos

Interestingly enough there's a bit in there about Males nature that is another witness of polygamy being an eternal principle. Nature testifies of it in more ways than one. NOT to derail this thread. If youd like to challenge this last paragraph please quote me in a polygamy thread. 0:)

[Thinker]

We have created a culture that expects obedience to made up ideas.

I wonder why.
It's as if saying, "The gospel is NOT ENOUGH! Never-mind that we struggle with the basic 10 commandments, let's add more so we feel better about keeping those when others aren't!!"

http://www.sltrib.com/csp/mediapool/sit ... image/jpeg

The correct principle comes first, then we govern ourselves based on that.

Sound advise - the trick is figuring out which are correct, and how and when to apply them.
Good ability to reason and intuitively be guided by the spirit are both essential - and even then I think it's a trial & error, humble process.

IE: Nobody's going to tell you exactly what to do when someone comes up to you and they seem sad - or when we feel sad. This is something each of us need to figure out as we go. The greatest commandments are to love God and love others as well as ourselves. As we love others, we love God. "On these 2 commandments hang all of the law and the prophets." But considering that Utah (highly Mormon) is #1 in the US for use of anti-depressants - it seems we urgently need to focus on what Jesus said is most important.

[eddie]

Concerning the young women of the church, they are also are also as responsible as the young men for getting them on a mission. I see them come into church dressed so immodestly I wonder why their Mother let them out the door. Of course they see immodesty everywhere they go but the young women of the church should especially be encouraging them, not giving them reason for bad thoughts.
We are not in a race against each other, we are here to help each other get home to our Heavenly Father.

[Sirocco]

I am not a fan of the culture either, I wanted a more structured belief system, not the culture that seems to have to come with it (which is why I don't go to church).
I don't need a community like that, be a convert in that.
Its the scriptures I enjoy and like a lot of things people seem to ruin things lol

[Robin Hood]

Concerning the young women of the church, they are also are also as responsible as the young men for getting them on a mission. I see them come into church dressed so immodestly I wonder why their Mother let them out the door. Of course they see immodesty everywhere they go but the young women of the church should especially be encouraging them, not giving them reason for bad thoughts.
We are not in a race against each other, we are here to help each other get home to our Heavenly Father.

Some of the mother's don't know how to dress either!

[Gage]

Concerning the young women of the church, they are also are also as responsible as the young men for getting them on a mission. I see them come into church dressed so immodestly I wonder why their Mother let them out the door. Of course they see immodesty everywhere they go but the young women of the church should especially be encouraging them, not giving them reason for bad thoughts.
We are not in a race against each other, we are here to help each other get home to our Heavenly Father.

Some of the mother's don't know how to dress either!

Yep, see a young LDS female dressed immodest and then look at her mother, you will see why, well if the mother is in decent shape she is sure to be. Nobody cares, nobody wants to see it or say anything. LDS women are seen as pure, perfect, and do no wrong. A girl can have a new boyfriend 2 weeks after her current boyfriend leaves on his mission, the same boyfriend that she promised to wait for, and everyone says how cute the new couple is. No mention of the heartbroken missionary 3000 miles away that is now suicidal. Bishops think the young women are pure and do no wrong, most lie to get temple recommends and temple weddings.

[kittycat51]

Concerning the young women of the church, they are also are also as responsible as the young men for getting them on a mission. I see them come into church dressed so immodestly I wonder why their Mother let them out the door. Of course they see immodesty everywhere they go but the young women of the church should especially be encouraging them, not giving them reason for bad thoughts.
We are not in a race against each other, we are here to help each other get home to our Heavenly Father.

AMEN! THIS IS MY BIGGEST PET PEEVE about going to church. X( As a mother of all boys, I know how uncomfortable they are when they go to church and sit across from these girls who wear skirts so short that when they sit down across from my boys, you can see more than bargained for. @-) I want and believe my boys should feel "safe" at church where the evils of the world are stifled, yet they have immodesty thrown in their face constantly by MANY YW. I want to scream at the fathers in some cases and ask, where are you in putting your foot down, when "mom" lets your daughters wear less than modest clothing? I believe that mom doesn't get it sometimes and forgets how easily boys get things moving in their brains. From mother's I hear, "but it's so hard to find long enough skirts". Baloney! I DO see some girls dressed cute and modestly. (It's about half and half in our ward here in Northern Utah County)

[Fiannan]

Bishops think the young women are pure and do no wrong, most lie to get temple recommends and temple weddings.

Not all of them. However, I do know that there have always been plenty of LDS (and other women of conservative religious backgrounds) that are very, let's just say, creative in maintaining their virginity.

[Alaris]

Bishops think the young women are pure and do no wrong, most lie to get temple recommends and temple weddings.

Not all of them. However, I do know that there have always been plenty of LDS (and other women of conservative religious backgrounds) that are very, let's just say, creative in maintaining their virginity.

Now now - there are many chaste & virtuous young women out there.

This does remind me of a joke:

What did the BYU co-eds do when the men put on a rated R movie? highlight for the answer:

They put their clothes back on and went home.

[Gage]

What these women mean to say is modest clothes dont turn the boys heads and are not cute and sexy.

[MMbelieve]

Concerning the young women of the church, they are also are also as responsible as the young men for getting them on a mission. I see them come into church dressed so immodestly I wonder why their Mother let them out the door. Of course they see immodesty everywhere they go but the young women of the church should especially be encouraging them, not giving them reason for bad thoughts.
We are not in a race against each other, we are here to help each other get home to our Heavenly Father.

AMEN! THIS IS MY BIGGEST PET PEEVE about going to church. X( As a mother of all boys, I know how uncomfortable they are when they go to church and sit across from these girls who wear skirts so short that when they sit down across from my boys, you can see more than bargained for. @-) I want and believe my boys should feel "safe" at church where the evils of the world are stifled, yet they have immodesty thrown in their face constantly by MANY YW. I want to scream at the fathers in some cases and ask, where are you in putting your foot down, when "mom" lets your daughters wear less than modest clothing? I believe that mom doesn't get it sometimes and forgets how easily boys get things moving in their brains. From mother's I hear, "but it's so hard to find long enough skirts". Baloney! I DO see some girls dressed cute and modestly. (It's about half and half in our ward here in Northern Utah County)

I have noticed that the YW that are most visible in their immodesty (clothing, behavior, and attitude) are the ones whose mothers are not much better (some mothers even borrow their daughters clothing) and the fathers are porn viewers. I always thought that the daughter dressed that way to get her father's attention...which is gross.

When ones mind is on the things of the flesh, they just don't see how they are wrong and correcting them will get you chastized.
It's almost like the saying locks keep honest people out...rules of modesty keep modest people modest. Or even, comandments keep the righteous on the straight and narrow.

I know this is not all and I'm not even being general, just stating the examples I have seen and known about.

Church should be a safe place, after the home and the temple. But even those places we have problems. Maybe we should ban YW from participating if they are not dressed modestly like we have the YM wear white shirts and ties for the sacrament.

But hey, it's not just the youth. The parents or adults have so many problems of their own that keeps a bishop on his toes. With sinful parents, we get sinful children.

If one cannot dress modest for even 3 hours a week, there is a serious problem.

[MMbelieve]

Concerning the young women of the church, they are also are also as responsible as the young men for getting them on a mission. I see them come into church dressed so immodestly I wonder why their Mother let them out the door. Of course they see immodesty everywhere they go but the young women of the church should especially be encouraging them, not giving them reason for bad thoughts.
We are not in a race against each other, we are here to help each other get home to our Heavenly Father.

I like your mentality, I wish we could all have it. Homes would be better, marriages would thrive, and the church would shine as a light. I do not know what it will take to wake us up and live our religion.

[Crackers]

Modesty in dress and behavior is a huge problem in my LDS community, both from the daughters and the moms. It is especially pervasive on instagram, where girls post super sexy pictures and other girls post sexy comments in response. And these are largely the daughters of our bishops and youth leaders, etc. BUT, it is not all of the girls. We also have a modest contigency, and they tend to hang together, across age and other differences, which is nice to see. I used to get upset after being constantly assualted at church by seeing so much, well, skin! And frankly, I still do. But instead of focusing on all the skin, I do try to concentrate on the women (mostly older) who have style and still put themselves together nicely, but in a modest way. I appreciate these women more than they know, and I try to imagine that in a different society, these are the women who will stand out and be noticed.

And Gage, shame on you for over-generalizing. Shame! Shame! I am sorry that all you see around you is negative. Try to find someone doing something good and focus on that. BTW, I am in decent shape and do not dress as you have suggested. In fact, I got whistled at the other day, in a perfectly frumpy outfit! My husband thinks I dress more modestly than I need to. Hows about them apples?

[Gage]

Modesty in dress and behavior is a huge problem in my LDS community, both from the daughters and the moms. It is especially pervasive on instagram, where girls post super sexy pictures and other girls post sexy comments in response. And these are largely the daughters of our bishops and youth leaders, etc. BUT, it is not all of the girls. We also have a modest contigency, and they tend to hang together, across age and other differences, which is nice to see. I used to get upset after being constantly assualted at church by seeing so much, well, skin! And frankly, I still do. But instead of focusing on all the skin, I do try to concentrate on the women (mostly older) who have style and still put themselves together nicely, but in a modest way. I appreciate these women more than they know, and I try to imagine that in a different society, these are the women who will stand out and be noticed.

And Gage, shame on you for over-generalizing. Shame! Shame! I am sorry that all you see around you is negative. Try to find someone doing something good and focus on that. BTW, I am in decent shape and do not dress as you have suggested. In fact, I got whistled at the other day, in a perfectly frumpy outfit! My husband thinks I dress more modestly than I need to. Hows about them apples?

Nothing I like to see more than a confident, modest woman, good for you. Most of the older women that you admire for their modesty have just become that way because of age. I am sure when they were younger they loved to dress sexy and a little less modest.

[MMbelieve]

Modesty in dress and behavior is a huge problem in my LDS community, both from the daughters and the moms. It is especially pervasive on instagram, where girls post super sexy pictures and other girls post sexy comments in response. And these are largely the daughters of our bishops and youth leaders, etc. BUT, it is not all of the girls. We also have a modest contigency, and they tend to hang together, across age and other differences, which is nice to see. I used to get upset after being constantly assualted at church by seeing so much, well, skin! And frankly, I still do. But instead of focusing on all the skin, I do try to concentrate on the women (mostly older) who have style and still put themselves together nicely, but in a modest way. I appreciate these women more than they know, and I try to imagine that in a different society, these are the women who will stand out and be noticed.

And Gage, shame on you for over-generalizing. Shame! Shame! I am sorry that all you see around you is negative. Try to find someone doing something good and focus on that. BTW, I am in decent shape and do not dress as you have suggested. In fact, I got whistled at the other day, in a perfectly frumpy outfit! My husband thinks I dress more modestly than I need to. Hows about them apples?

Lol, nice.

Yes, a modest and kind woman is a gem indeed. It does take a gem to notice other gems.
I am also the type of woman who is overly modest (always have been from birth) and still look nice and attractive. Never had an issue with people being drawn to me.

When women dress nice and modest then people can appreciate them more and not have their immodesty as a distraction or uncomfortable thing to get past. It's relaxing and peaceful to be around other modest people. Men don't go around with their chests showing or half unbuttoned shirts, that would be distracting! Or short shorts, oh my.

Women have given themselves way too many excuses to be immodest and they will be corrected someday. If I can cover my assests, most anyone else can, lol. It's not hard at all, just have to get away from the popular clothing in the junior section. And long skirts are fashion now as well as Bermuda shorts.

I'm still a firm believer in modest dress code in church for women much like the men have. They cannot wear sandles to church, why do women? They wear pants and buttoned up shirts. Covered nearly head to toe but the women...cleavage everywhere you look geez.

If they only knew how hard they make it for the men. Men in other christian churches have complained to the woman because the guys are there to worship and get away from that garbage. But in our church, it's all roses and chocolates...no one wants to offend anyone.

[MMbelieve]

Modesty in dress and behavior is a huge problem in my LDS community, both from the daughters and the moms. It is especially pervasive on instagram, where girls post super sexy pictures and other girls post sexy comments in response. And these are largely the daughters of our bishops and youth leaders, etc. BUT, it is not all of the girls. We also have a modest contigency, and they tend to hang together, across age and other differences, which is nice to see. I used to get upset after being constantly assualted at church by seeing so much, well, skin! And frankly, I still do. But instead of focusing on all the skin, I do try to concentrate on the women (mostly older) who have style and still put themselves together nicely, but in a modest way. I appreciate these women more than they know, and I try to imagine that in a different society, these are the women who will stand out and be noticed.

And Gage, shame on you for over-generalizing. Shame! Shame! I am sorry that all you see around you is negative. Try to find someone doing something good and focus on that. BTW, I am in decent shape and do not dress as you have suggested. In fact, I got whistled at the other day, in a perfectly frumpy outfit! My husband thinks I dress more modestly than I need to. Hows about them apples?

Nothing I like to see more than a confident, modest woman, good for you. Most of the older women that you admire for their modesty have just become that way because of age. I am sure when they were younger they loved to dress sexy and a little less modest.

Once a woman is married she shouldn't dress like she's not. She's no longer on the market and thus is offending her husband by advertising herself. Wasn't it in Jewish culture, there was a dress common for unmarried and married women? Made it easier im sure.

Are you sure that the old women today were immodest when younger? Your suggesting that immodesty is based on body attractiveness and that is surely not the case. Most immodest women today look terrible.

Immodesty is more of a self confidence issue or a flat out disregard or unawareness of what they are doing. Yes, there are immodest women who are apparently oblivious and do not do it for sex appeal. Most I would imagine are doing it for the attention to get the look from ANYONE to validate their existance. Is isn't that sad.

So...maybe when guys complain about not getting what they want from their wives, guys can see a void in their wives that they are not fulfilling as well which cause them to parade themselves to feel good. Just a thought.

[Fiannan]

I just want to note that some of the women out there who wear the most "modest" clothing are the quickest to take them off and many who might attract a stare when they walk by are quite modest where it counts.

[Gage]

That's the problem, you cant scold or say anything to an LDS female because they are taught all their lives that they are princesses and perfect and do no wrong. And most Bishops actually believe this.