LDS Culture Problem

[Sweety D]

I'm married, have kids, hold a current temple recommend, held and hold callings in leadership .. the typical LDS person I suppose. However, I have one major problem with our community (not our faith). I hate our culture! Not all of it, I say that mostly for the shock and awe factor. 

Let me explain. We have counsel on Word of Wisdom, modesty, R-rated movies, monthly temple attendance, all great counsel. But we need to stop citing things as Thus saith the Lord. We have created this culture that has some people actually believing Mormons shouldn't or can't watch an R-rated movies or drink caffeine or wear a 2 piece bathing suit. All of which is nonsense. There is nothing doctrinal about any of these things (and many more I haven't mentioned). I am not suggesting it's bad advice to adhere to these ideas. But that's all they are, advice. 

In 1986 at the Priesthood session of General Conference Ezra Taft Benson gave the talk now called "To the Youth of the Noble Birthright". He specifically says "Tonight I would like to speak directly to you young men of the Aaronic Priesthood" he goes on to say he's grateful the fathers are there. But clearly says he's speaking to the Aaronic Priesthood. It's in this talk that he counsels young men to not watch R-rated movies. Even if you take this as doctrine, it's counsel for the YM. Therefore, it's not going to prevent anyone from getting a temple recommend. It's well known (and often discussed on the is site) you are not asked about this during temple recommend interviews. To add to this, YM are not even asked about this during their limited use temple recommend interviews. 

In 1965 the For the Strength of Youth was written and specifically talked about Young Women not wearing bikinis. Today's it's not so clear. Either way this is great counsel for YW. And if adults want to follow this counsel, great! But there is nothing doctrinal about it, concerning adults. Of course, setting examples are important. I'm not arguing that. These 2 examples I discussed (movies and bikinis) are for youth. Adults don't need to be governed so tightly that we have doctrine on such trivial aspects of our life. 

Families or couples/people that don't attend ward functions/parties are sometimes considered active but not fully invested or engaged. I have known couples that are antisocial and never attend things like ward Christmas parties or weddings of people they've known for years. Or maybe they don't volunteer to drive kids to girls/scout camp. Or they don't help with "name a LDS event". Often they are looked at just slightly different. People will say, "I'm not sure if they have a strong testimony." And "I saw Sister Jane Doe on Facebook, she and her husband went to Hawaii and she wore a bikini." As if that's a sin! 

We have created a culture that expects obedience to made up ideas. I didn't even get into monthly temple attendance or caffeine, but that's obvious. And for what it's worth, I don't drink caffeine. But I choose not to because of health reasons. Not because some ridiculous culture suggests I shouldn't. I wish we all would stop these shameful judgements that are passed on others especially when they are doctrinally incorrect. This post isn't because I feel judged or feel confused or bad about any situation. It's because I see others deeply affected by this culture that exists within our faith. It needs to stop. 

Pay your tithing, go to the temple when you can, do your home/visiting teaching and fulfill your calling as best as you can. Obey the commandments and love your family and neighbors. Everything else is just noise. Even if you aren't judging others on some of these examples I have mentioned, but you are talking about them as doctrine, you are causing a problem. Stop it

[Irrelevant]

Oh boy, get ready. Ha ha. I posted something pretty similar a few months ago. I agree with you on all points. People are just plain nosy. Live the Gospel as you understand it because in the end it's between the individual and God.

I used to look past it all because I don't care what people think or say of me (I'd rather it be good but it's not first on my list) but it really started to bother me as I've seen numerous families stop attending our become discouraged over this stuff- mostly recent converts, including some of my own family members. I feel you on this one.

[BRMC]

As someone just learning about your faith, this is a very interesting topic. The more I learn, the more I wonder. Some of this I don't really get.

[Sweety D]

Oh boy, get ready. Ha ha.

Do you mean get ready for attacks (replies)? I'm new on this forum, I'm wondering if you mean to say people will disagree with me?

[Sweety D]

As someone just learning about your faith, this is a very interesting topic. The more I learn, the more I wonder. Some of this I don't really get.

Please don't misunderstand my post. This post (rant) is about a sub-culture that has been created in the church. This has nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ or the restoration of the true church. Sometimes people feel judged by others because of the high standards we set on ourselves. I simply don't like the idea that people are being judged, even if it comes from a place of higher morals.

[MMbelieve]

I find it interesting and hypocritical when we do so much of this judging when we are specifically taught to not judge others.

The church sub-culture does have a HUGE problem.

[Irrelevant]

Right. Just that some of the replies I got were perfect examples of the very things I was ranting about. However, the majority was good advice. I agree, higher morals are great but personal revelation, beliefs, interpretation, etc are just that- personal.

[BRMC]

I wasn't misunderstanding the post, it was just something I was curious about. It seems like you get thrown out if you slip. That's rough.

[Crackers]

You probably don't recognize that you are being judgemental in turn to those whom you find "judgemental." Yes, there is a problem, and it goes both ways. If you agree that not watching R-rated movies (for example), is good counsel, regardless of whether it is doctrinal, why not try to do that? Why tout the fact that you are able to make a less-than great choice and still go to the temple (etc.) if you do? It seems to me that people tend to believe that the level of gospel living where they currently stand is better than any other level, higher or lower. We are egocentric and think that we are in a good place because we aren't too Molly Mormon and neither are we depraved. We are just right! And frankly, if each person is making a genuine effort, they are right! Don't pass judgement on those who are trying to live a higher standard. And if you sense judgement from them, turn the other cheek. That is their failing.

[Juliet]

I think they addressed this in our last general conference, where they addressed the scripture about the man who smote his chest and cried, "Forgive me, I am a sinner," and the man who said, well, I essentially pay my tithing, and go to church, and have my temple recommend, etc, except the scripture uses different words, such as, "I give all my tithes to the poor" etc. Self righteousness: Icky. As Jesus said, the first man was justified, and the second self righteous man was just self righteous.

…Luke 18:13

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

[iWriteStuff]

And the people all said sit down
Sit down you're rockin the boat
The people all said sit down
Sit down you're rockin the boat
and the devil will drag you under
By the sharp lapels of your checkered coat
Sit down Sit down
Sit down you're rockin the boat! :p

jk I am not exactly a fan of stereotypical Mormon culture either. Love the commandments, love obedience, but not exactly a fan of cliques, clubs, or controversial condemnation.

Church life: it's like the old proverb, which says, "Before marriage, eyes wide open. After marriage, eyes half shut!"

[Sweety D]

You probably don't recognize that you are being judgemental in turn to those whom you find "judgemental." Yes, there is a problem, and it goes both ways. If you agree that not watching R-rated movies (for example), is good counsel, regardless of whether it is doctrinal, why not try to do that? Why tout the fact that you are able to make a less-than great choice and still go to the temple (etc.) if you do? It seems to me that people tend to believe that the level of gospel living where they currently stand is better than any other level, higher or lower. We are egocentric and think that we are in a good place because we aren't too Molly Mormon and neither are we depraved. We are just right! And frankly, if each person is making a genuine effort, they are right! Don't pass judgement on those who are trying to live a higher standard. And if you sense judgement from them, turn the other cheek. That is their failing.

It's funny, I can say you are judging me by telling me I am judging others when I don't like that they judge people. My head is spinning now. Consequently, I was speaking in general terms and didn't single anyone out. So I don't really feel bad about saying those things. Furthermore, I don't think it's great counsel. I should have stated this more carefully in my first post. And truthfully it's not really counsel at all. With the exception of this talk that was meant for the youth. There has never, ever, not once, been offical counsel on R-rated movies from the church. So you say, why not try to follow the counsel, well it's not.

Not watching an R-rated movies doesn't automatically mean you are living a higher standard. What if I paying 15% tithing, visiting the temple 2 or3 times a month etc, but I still watch R-rated movies. What standard am I living? Don't be so quick to define what you think is a "good place" or "high standard". I talk to people all the time that have serious sins that never watch R-rated movies. Some of these people are addicted to pronography, but yet don't watch R-rated movies. For what it's worth, I watched the first R-rated movie of my life in the last year. And guess what? Nothing happened. I'm not promoting that everyone should go out and watch these films. I am promoting the stopping of hurtful judgments especially when people are simply wrong about these things being docternal. Same applies to morality, WoW, temple attendance and so on.

In the end, I agree that we should all try to live up to a higher moral standard. But people need to stop defining that standard for others.

[Crackers]

I agree, I am being judgemental by suggesting that you are. It's endless, isn't it? I was simply making that point. By the way, I too am speaking generally, and don't mean to say that you are at fault in any way. I in no way think my sins are "better" than yours or anyone else's. We all fall short.

President Benson did make a specific statement about avoiding R-rated movies, if that's the one you're referencing. I consider that to be pretty official. There may have been others. I don't know offhand. Regardless, we have been taught principles and shouldn't need to be commanded in all things. The standard I like to use in my home is "would I watch this if my Dad were sitting with me?" I don't ask the question substituting my mother for father, as it might produce a different outcome.

I find it interesting that we tend to think we graduate from childhood standards. I see that a lot in LDS culture too. I have found that I become more conservative in my choices as I age (to continue with the same example, I don't watch a lot of PG-13 or even PG movies, and I check content first, whereas I would watch some R-rated movies when I was younger). Not because I am trying to live a standard taught by a Prophet to some youth decades ago, but because that is a decision that I am comfortable and happy with. This applies to other areas as well. I don't think the leadership of the church intends for us to completely disregard youth standards once we become adults. It may be that children need to have clear definitions and standards, but as adults we are expected to internalize and ponder and search, and again, not be commanded in all things.

I think we actually agree on this topic, that we should not impose any standard on another person, or judge them accordingly. I am saddened, though, when people are proud of and seek to justify doing things they know to not bring them closer to Christ, whether those things have been put forth as doctrine or not.

[Alaris]

Thanks for the post. I chimed in on irrelevants thread if that's the one I'm thinking of. I too feel there are serious problems with LDS culture. In my experience the problems I've seen are specifically detailed as warnings in the book of Mormon where the church starts to struggle with the pride cycle and start over emphasizing material possession and envying and strife ensues.

On the other end of the spectrum the extra laws of righteousness also bother me that I personally have mostly seen in Utah. Not only is caffeine the devil but soda is the devil!

One is a pride problem... Well maybe both are but different flavors and different ends of the spectrum. One is a fundamental lack of heart in the gospel and one is way too much heart past the mark.

I would like to say something about bikinis and yoga pants. As a man I can tell you that both, while they may not be specifically outlawed, do lead to impure thoughts in men. If you could be a man for a day if for no other reason than to blend in with non lds men and hear the gawking and comments the are made when a woman wearing yoga pants walks by. You might just never wear them again...or the bikini. There is a commandment to love your neighbor as yourself... Difficult to do across genders as the empathy levels are not the same but please believe me. You are loving men as God loves by dressing modestly.

[Sweety D]

President Benson did make a specific statement about avoiding R-rated movies, if that's the one you're referencing.

Yes, I stated this in my first post. It was in 1986 at the Priesthood session of General Conference Ezra Taft Benson gave the talk now called "To the Youth of the Noble Birthright".

I find it interesting that we tend to think we graduate from childhood standards.

But we do. Children should not be sexually active. Children should not support families financially. Children .. I could go on.

The standard I like to use in my home is "would I watch this if my Dad were sitting with me?"

Obviously I understand this, and if it works for you, great! But to me it doesn't work logically. First of all, "dad" is not a standard by which something can be measured. But I realize I'm nit-picking. For me it's about the adult vs. child thing. I have children, I do not let them watch R-rated movies. I do this for 2 reasons. 1, President Benson asked me not to. And 2, They are children and not mature enough to handle it. Which takes me back to my last point. We absolutely graduate from childhood standards.

Sorry if it seems I'm being argumentative. I'm really just trying to make people aware of this subculture that I think is hurting so many people. It's my belief the Gospel needs to lived through obedience to commandments and not lived through the doctrines found in D&C 139. If you are not familiar with section 139, I urge you go go and look it up. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc?lang=eng - The point being that we made them up.

[Sweety D]

If you could be a man for a day if for no other reason than to blend in with non lds men and hear the gawking and comments the are made when a woman wearing yoga pants walks by. You might just never wear them again...or the bikini.

I am a man, and I love my wife and I cleave unto her and don't care what others wear. Those gawking men have their own problems, I'm sure. Though I do understand your point, and in a sense I agree with you. But for me, just seeing a woman's stomach means nothing. But that's not my point. My point is the judgement people pass on bikini wearing adult women.

First of all, it's not a sin. Second, it's a personal choice each woman should make for herself. For adults, the church does not define modesty is not defined by the difference between a 1 and 2 piece bathsuit. As I mentioned in my first post, this was only ever written in the For the Strength of Youth document, which has be revised many times and now it's taken out completely. And lastly, most of these things I've (we've) been discussing are quite trivial in the grand scheme of things.

[Crackers]

Please go on about the children thing. I don't quite see your point. You have made my point, though, over all. You are the one nit-picking about standards, because they have not been specifically and clearly set forth as doctrine. This gives a person free rein to ignore good counsel. Do you think that wearing a bikini brings you (and those around you) closer to Christ? What about those movies, what about the addictive properties of caffeine and all those horrific ingredients in sodas? No, these things truly do not bring you closer to Christ. Do they lead you away from Him? Well, they can. Even if it is not specifically taught in D&C 1-138.

I honestly do not judge a person when I watch him or her drink a Mountain Dew or a Coke, even when it is my own reflection I am seeing. I am wise enough to admit, however, that this behavior could be improved on.

[Sweety D]

You don't see that children are different than adults in maturity, responsibility, development and accountability? I think you do.

This gives a person free rein to ignore good counsel.

Again, it's not counsel for all. Pres. Benson made it very clear.

Do you think that wearing a bikini brings you (and those around you) closer to Christ? What about those movies, what about the addictive properties of caffeine and all those horrific ingredients in sodas?

No. Nor does it draw one further from Christ.

Concerning soda, the sugar in Coke is far worse for your health than caffeine. This is well documented. In fact sugar is more addictive than cocaine, again well documented facts. Do you drink Sprite or sugary fake orange juice? Dare I judge you for this terrible health choice? Of course not.

Again, maybe we should stop defining standards for others, or what draws one closer to Christ for others. Some need to read scriptures for an hour each night to feel closer to the Lord. Some minutes.

[Crackers]

Sweety, I feel that we are not communicating very well. Our words are running parallel instead of intersecting. We agree on much and disagree on little. My apparent disagreement with you is whether we require good counsel from the brethren to be doctrinal in order for it to be of benefit. I think it need not be. And I think it is difficult to argue that those things we have mentioned don't have the potential to lead us away from Christ.

[Jonesy]

7 For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words--they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

I was going to expound my own understanding of this verse, but I think everyone hit on the main points. So, just something to ponder!

[Sweety D]

My apparent disagreement with you is whether we require good counsel from the brethren to be doctrinal in order for it to be of benefit. I think it need not be.

Well said. I agree. It's subjective to each person to decide. Thus, we should rely on prayer.

And I think it is difficult to argue that those things we have mentioned don't have the potential to lead us away from Christ.

Not well said. I disagree. It's subjective to the person to decide what leads us away. Thus, we should rely on prayer.

In the end, we are close, but I will never agree to these silly ideas that drinking Coke draws a person away from Christ. (And as I've said I don't drink caffeine, but not because it's a sin, it's not)

[oneClimbs]

There will always be people that bother you everywhere. Once you accept that fact, you'll be fine doing your thing and you'll focus frustrations on being helpful in situations where your insight and wisdom are needed. Everyone is struggling and wrestling, we all believe things that are not true and life goes on.

Lots of complaints about church culture, but overall, I love the LDS people and wouldn't trade 'em.

[inho]

I think Sweety D's concern is valid. If we focus too much on the culture and the advice, we become like the Pharisees. The Pharisees were obsessed with keeping all the statutes of the law of Moses, which seem to be a good thing. However, if we are like the Pharisees, we are not like Jesus, who healed sick on the Sabbath. Sometimes we, too, need to "heal the sick on the Sabbath" even though it might seem to go against the church culture. However, if it is not against the Gospel, it is a good thing.

[Gage]

"I would like to say something about bikinis and yoga pants. As a man I can tell you that both, while they may not be specifically outlawed, do lead to impure thoughts in men. If you could be a man for a day if for no other reason than to blend in with non lds men and hear the gawking and comments the are made when a woman wearing yoga pants walks by. You might just never wear them again...or the bikini. There is a commandment to love your neighbor as yourself... Difficult to do across genders as the empathy levels are not the same but please believe me. You are loving men as God loves by dressing modestly."



Why do you think women wear yoga pants? Why do you think women wear low cut skirts, dresses, blouses, shirts? Why do you think women wear high heels? I will tell you why, no its not because its hot outside, no its not because its "comfortable", its so men will notice them.

[Irrelevant]

I've heard all of my life that the Lord's people are a peculiar people. Maybe we sometimes want to be more peculiar than our peers and so we look beyond the mark. And while we are busy separating ourselves (or elevating, in a strange way) there is a tendency to look down on others. And yes it can be on either side- those who make up commandments and judge others by them and those who look down on "Molly Mormons". Pride takes many forms.