Misunderstood eternal principle of Where we are at

[gclayjr]

We are all at somewhere in our progression going somewhere else. We look around us and we see people better off and worse off. We see people who seem to better be able to manage their family and affairs, and others who are more hopeless.

We know that if we make bad choices, we go down the wrong path to a bad place. Christ has told us that if we truly repent, and follow him we all will be saved equally. I think this leads to a great misconception that shows up over and over.

Satan has put into man's hearts that somehow equality means equality of stuff, pleasure, and glory. I believe that equality means equality of grace, rights, and opportunity. This leads to a twisted idea of what Paradise, living a law of consecration, or a Celestial life will be.

It is true that what is important to salvation is where you are going, not where you are at. However, it is obvious that no matter where you are going, you are always going from where you are at.

If you are living a salacious life, have HIV, children you never raised, and drug addictions, and you truly repent and accept Christ, you will still have HIV, a broken family and a drug addiction. You will be on the path to repair, but you will still be where you are at.

If you have been wasting your money on riotous living, and poor financial money management, and you decide to pay your tithing and live fiscally restrained, you may be on your way to a more plentiful life, but at that moment you are still broke and in debt.

I believe that the reason Christ tells us that the only important thing is the direction we are going, is because that is all that is under our control. We cannot change what we did in the past to get to where we are, and we cannot do anything about where we are as a result of what we did. Accept Jesus Christ, Repent, follow him, and we will go to the right place eventually at our own pace.

So why do people think that somehow magically differently from all of the eternal laws and practices that got us to where we are in our progress, when we either live the law of consecration, or go to the Celestial kingdom magically everybody will be in the same place with the same amount of "stuff"?

We won't all be in the same position in our progress. We won't have the same amount of "glory", worlds, wives, or whatever. We will be in the right place going the right direction, but that is all.

Isn't that enough?

Regards,

George Clay

[iWriteStuff]

It is true that what is important to salvation is where you are going, not where you are at. However, it is obvious that no matter where you are going, you are always going from where you are at.

If you are living a salacious life, have HIV, children you never raised, and drug addictions, and you truly repent and accept Christ, you will still have HIV, a broken family and a drug addiction. You will be on the path to repair, but you will still be where you are at.

If you have been wasting your money on riotous living, and poor financial money management, and you decide to pay your tithing and live fiscally restrained, you may be on your way to a more plentiful life, but at that moment you are still broke and in debt.

I believe that the reason Christ tells us that the only important thing is the direction we are going, is because that is all that is under our control. We cannot change what we did in the past to get to where we are, and we cannot do anything about where we are as a result of what we did. Accept Jesus Christ, Repent, follow him, and we will go to the right place eventually at our own pace.

Reminds me of my favorite quote:

"Who is righteous? Anyone who is repenting. No matter how bad he has been, if he is repenting he is a righteous man. There is hope for him. And no matter how good he has been all his life, if he is not repenting, he is a wicked man. The difference is which way you are facing. The man on the top of the stairs facing down is much worse off than the man on the bottom step who is facing up. The direction we are facing, that is repentance; and that is what determines whether we are good or bad."
- Hugh Nibley

[gclayjr]

iWritestuff,

You are very right. My point is that instead of focusing on that which is most important, which way we are facing; we create these fantasies about where we are at, and how that eternal principle applies to our future, or a comparison (which is natural, but not useful) , to where we are at to where someone else is at. Maybe even more importantly, there are too many fantasies about where you WILL be at immediately after changing directions!

Regards,

George Clay

[Arenera]

The mists of darkness, are dark! Unless someone sees some light, they may or may not live according to the gospel.

Why do you think lotteries are so popular?

[bbsion]

This makes me think about the Tree of Life vision. There are many people holding on to the rod but they are at different levels of progression depending on when and where they grabbed on to the rod. Everyone lets go of the rod from time to time but some people let go for longer and the darkness can lead them backwards. As long as they at one point grab on to the rod then they will be led to the Tree of Life. Those found in the darkness, the river, or the great and spacious building and have no intention of grabbing on to the rod are the ones to worry about.

This also makes me think of D&C 137:

"5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;"

That gives you major insight and kind of makes you re-think how you view others since you do not know where they are at in their path to God.

[Finrock]

Those who have tasted of the Fruit of Eternal life and are filled with God's love, will immediately turn around and seek help others along the way. They will give of their substance to those who stand in need. They will forgive, love, and will be peacemakers. They will pray for their enemies and pray for those who may not have yet tasted of the Fruit. They will yearn for their brother and for their sister, wanting all to be blessed and to have. Of course, all are free to choose. All are free to accept or to reject any gift that is given them. All can choose to live in whatever state of mind they wish to live in. External circumstance or the conduct of others can't tear us away from Heaven unless we choose to leave Heaven by our own free will and choice. Heaven is a state of mind more than it is a place. We can bring heaven along with us. If we are filled with celestial light, we can carry it with where ever we go and we can offer that light to others. It will beam and radiate from us, like rays from the sun.

When we are filled with God's love, all circumstances seem holy, good, joyous; there will be no envy, no pride, no esteeming oneself or another as greater than another man, no respecting of persons, no desire or disposition within but to do and be Good.

We are equal in our standing before God. Everyone, no matter how "righteous" they think they are, are equal in their need for the Savior Jesus Christ. We have nothing of which we can our ought to boast about. Any gift, any blessing, any thing that we possess, is not because of the genius or the because of the hard work of said person, but it has been given to us freely from God. All that we have and all that we are we owe to God. We are equally unprofitable servants. So, what have we to boast? What are we going to withhold from our brother or sister, when all that we have was given to us by God, not because we merit anything by our "great works"? Jesus Christ did the great work and He deserves all glory and honor. It is by His merits that we are saved and all that we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Equally fallen, equally in need of the Savior. No man or woman is greater or more important than another man or woman. We should esteem no flesh above another or esteem ourselves as better than another. Being filled with the pure love of Christ produces this disposition and mentality. If we truly were filled with the Spirit, we would all do whatever we could to help and to assist those around us because we would see them as ourselves and further we would have love for our enemy, esteeming them as ourselves and by our own free will and choice we would seek to lift others up as we have been lifted up by Christ.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Any gift, any blessing, any thing that we possess, is not because of the genius or the because of the hard work of said person, but it has been given to us freely from God

syrupy mush with a certain amount of truth in it, but not quite there. We can do nothing without God, and we owe him everything. However, we progress by the amount of effort that WE put into doing the right things. You can be on the right path and strolling, or you can be on the right path and running. The choice is yours.

In fact, that is the whole illusion that Satan inserts into this. He has us look at where we are, what stuff we have, what praise we get. In a Celestial world, we will help our brethren, whether we help them because they are failing, or we are helping him to better himself, but it will not be not a socialist utopia where instantly all have equal, stuff, glory or stewardships.

Regards,

George Clay

[Gage]

Any gift, any blessing, any thing that we possess, is not because of the genius or the because of the hard work of said person, but it has been given to us freely from God

Many Mormons think that all the possessions and riches they have are because they are living righteous and God has blessed them because of it, Gospel of Gain. God never promised the Prophets of old "riches" if they lived righteously. Yes we owe everything to God, but no way you can not attribute hard work and effort to your "success and possessions"

[iWriteStuff]

Any gift, any blessing, any thing that we possess, is not because of the genius or the because of the hard work of said person, but it has been given to us freely from God

Many Mormons think that all the possessions and riches they have are because they are living righteous and God has blessed them because of it, Gospel of Gain. God never promised the Prophets of old "riches" if they lived righteously. Yes we owe everything to God, but no way you can not attribute hard work and effort to your "success and possessions"

True point - this whole "mine arm hath made me rich" is a Zoramite doctrine, or a sign of apostasy. Your talents and riches came from God; therefore, of what have ye to boast? I used to have a Bishop who said the biggest trial he's had in his life was becoming incredibly wealthy. I'm not sure I'll ever get that trial, but I can see how it could become one.

[Rensai]

I've heard it said often that our talents come from God but I don't buy that, at least not in the sense people generally mean. Our talents are the result of our work, God provides opportunities, situations, etc that can help point us towards developing certain talents, or addressing our defects, but he does not magically give us talents like Neo in the matrix downloading the skills for kung fu to his brain. To me, this idea is just the opposite knee jerk reaction to the equally flawed idea that a person is doing everything for themselves. Neither is true. We are here to learn and grow and we must take advantage of God's help to gain new talents, knowledge, etc, but it takes hard work to gain talents and keep improving until eventually we can finally become perfect.

[Gage]

Some of the most faithful, righteous Mormons I know are also the poorest, they eek out a living at best. My favorite is to hear the more well off members bare their testimony and boast how everything they touch turns to gold insinuating that they have that big boat and big house because of how righteous they are and God blesses them because they keep the commandments. These are the same guys that are constantly doing shady deals and cheating others for their personal gain. Others bust their rear ends because they worship riches and material things and most like that attain these riches, but it sure doesnt mean they received them because God is pleased with them and wants to bless them with more. Very few members seek to know the mysteries of God, most are too busy seeking riches.

[gclayjr]

Gage,

You sound like Obama. "You didn't earn that".

Any gift, any blessing, any thing that we possess, is not because of the genius or the because of the hard work of said person, but it has been given to us freely from God

From Chapt 20. Teachings of Presidents... George Albert Smith

We are told that we cannot serve God and some other master [see Matthew 6:24]. We have to make our choice, and if we want to be the servants of God and the children of our Heavenly Father and earn his blessings must do it by honoring him and by keeping his commandments. Our feelings, and our love, if I may use that expression, should go out to all the world as far as they will receive it.10 [See suggestion 4 on page 222.]

It is true that we "see through a glass darkly" and cannot judge who has Earned what, or if someone lacks something, that it is because they haven't worked hard enough. It is true that without Jesus CHrist and his atoning sacrifice, none of us could be saved.

We know that while saving from the fall of Adam is given freely to all, the gift of a Celestial Glory must be EARNED by a dedicated following of Jesus Christ.

We also know that while all of us have different talents, none of those talents grow unless we WORK for it, and they will grow in proportion to how much we WORK for it.

So to say that ANY gift, blessing, or thing we posses is simply given to us freely from God is FALSE. God is NOT that arbitrary nor discriminatory!

Regards,

George CLay

[Gage]

Gage,

You sound like Obama. "You didn't earn that".

Any gift, any blessing, any thing that we possess, is not because of the genius or the because of the hard work of said person, but it has been given to us freely from God


No I didnt say that, I was responding to it, I was disagreeing with it.

[Finrock]

Finrock,

Any gift, any blessing, any thing that we possess, is not because of the genius or the because of the hard work of said person, but it has been given to us freely from God

syrupy mush with a certain amount of truth in it, but not quite there. We can do nothing without God, and we owe him everything. However, we progress by the amount of effort that WE put into doing the right things. You can be on the right path and strolling, or you can be on the right path and running. The choice is yours.

In fact, that is the whole illusion that Satan inserts into this. He has us look at where we are, what stuff we have, what praise we get. In a Celestial world, we will help our brethren, whether we help them because they are failing, or we are helping him to better himself, but it will not be not a socialist utopia where instantly all have equal, stuff, glory or stewardships.

Regards,

George Clay

No matter what effort we put in, we will always be unprofitable servants. We are saved through the merits and mercy of Jesus Christ. A saved soul, a person who is filled with the Holy Ghost will in fact act and do things, but it will be because of the love that has been placed in them by Christ. Only actions that are motivated and spring from our love of God and of others are "good". The only thing we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We progress to the degree that we surrender our wills to God's will. Or, to the degree where we allow God, or the Holy Spirit, lead us and direct us, letting go of our Ego, and becoming One with Christ and the Father. If we are acting from ego to any degree, it is counted unto us as evil. The only effort we can do is to be humble, teachable, meek, contrite. Doing the right thing, therefore, is about following the dictates of the Holy Spirit out of love or charity or pure love of Christ. That is why it is so important to obtain and to maintain the Holy Ghost. We must be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, having this mighty change of heart, being born again, becoming a new creature.

There are many practical ways in which having a broken heart and a contrite spirit can be manifested in a person's life.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

No matter what effort we put in, we will always be unprofitable servants. We are saved through the merits and mercy of Jesus Christ. A saved soul, a person who is filled with the Holy Ghost will in fact act and do things, but it will be because of the love that has been placed in them by Christ.

Yes, but you are completely missing the point. What does it mean to be saved? Do all saved souls have the same glory? do all saved souls have the same increase? Do all saved souls have the same stuff?

If not, is God just an arbitrary God, who sits on his throne and gives one soul some knowledge, and denies another soul that knowledge? Does he arbitrarily give one soul a certain amount of worlds and another a different amount of worlds. Does he arbitrarily gives different number of wives to different souls? Are all of these arbitrary results dictated by God, or are they somehow related to the efforts and choices a soul makes over time?

Regards,

George Clay

[Sarah]

I think I understand your worry, and here's how I think of Celestial Glory and this idea of equality.

An important principle that governs those who have covenanted to live under the United Order, is "ask, and ye shall receive," and "give to those who ask of thee." These requests, and acts of giving and receiving, must be motivated by love, and not selfishness, or else the covenant falls apart. And this is why the Saints had trouble, is there was too much selfishness, and too much envy. If your neighbor has three horses and you only have one, there is no reason to envy as there is nothing stopping you from humbly requesting from your Bishop or your neighbor for an additional horse. But if you're requesting just to make things equal, or to satisfy some lust you have for possessing horses, or you can't really use the horse productively (no actual need), then you are requesting for the wrong reason, and those within the covenant will loose trust in you.

I don't know what all we will possess as a group and have stewardship over in the Celestial Kingdom, but let's say your brother has three mansions and three wives, and you only have one of each. What is stopping you from requesting more, and what is your motivation in requesting more? There is no reason for you to feel like you can never attain the same as your brother, but you are not entitled to the same or equal quantity. You must ask, motivated by love, and receive out of love, which means reciprocating when you are given a gift.

And if we are talking about wives and mansions and each wife in a mansion (what else matters) then you then are not dealing with things but persons who have agency. So no forced equality there. That is where the principles outlined in sec. 121 come into play. The only way you can have any influence over your wives, or control over the elements, is if you have earned their love, faith, and trust according to these principles. So the Law of Attraction will come into play, so that there is no forced equality like socialism, but equal opportunity to acquire, and still be united in a bond of sharing and sacrifice for each other. It is the best of both systems - capitalism and socialism. You have agency preserved, but you have desires met by requesting of those to whom you have covenanted with to live in true love with one another, working together for the Glory of God, or the multiplying of children and worlds and whatever else.

Now if one man is able to have hundreds of mansions and wives to himself, that is a lot of empty houses and wives sitting around while he is managing and visiting each one, so why not allow other of your brothers to have stewardship over some of those mansions and wives for a time if they request that of you, since everything is "owned" or possessed by everyone within the covenant anyway.

Just talking out-loud here - just how I imagine things and not claiming this to be true doctrine.

[ExtraCelestial]

I was in the Salt Lake Conference Center for the 2016 FALL Conference session. "Am I Good Enough? Will I Make It?, By Elder J. Devn Cornish, Of the Seventy" reminds me of what you are referring to. It his talk, he talks at length about the consequences of sin. I quote: "Sin always has consequences. Sin always harms and hurts both the sinner and those affected by his or her sins. And true repentance is never easy.10 Moreover, please understand that even though God takes away the guilt and stain of our sins when we sincerely repent, He may not immediately take away all of the consequences of our sins. Sometimes they remain with us for the rest of our lives. And the worst kind of sin is premeditated sin, where one says, “I can sin now and repent later.” I believe that this is a solemn mockery of the sacrifice and sufferings of Jesus Christ."

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... t?lang=eng

Proper repentance does not remove the consequences of our sin - we must bear them until they no longer have hold of us; sometimes our entire lives.

[gclayjr]

ExtraCelestial

Ding! Ding! Ding!

You are absolutely right. But I am actually looking at the other side of that equation. I guess you could look at sin as lost opportunity to progress. I am saying that we are where we are because of how far down various paths we have progressed, and all have progressed somewhat differently. I am saying that like compound interest, we build skills, knowledge and other things as we put effort into our progression. He who accepts Christ and repents just before he dies, loses opportunity to progress, even though he may be saved, and also he who puts maximum effort into progressing down God's path, is further down that path than he who coasts. That is one reason we are encouraged to

"Lengthen our stride"

It is interesting that rather than focusing on lengthening our stride and how we can do better, we so often "compare" ourselves to others. It is interesting how much we seem to make that comparison (and judgment of equality or fairness) based upon material things.

A thought question: While we see through a glass darkly and have to be careful in judging, do you think it is likely that I have somehow progressed further towards God than an LDS Bishop of some ward in Venezuela? I'm sure that I have more food, more of the comforts of the world, and probably more money than he does? Of course not! Perhaps what he has had to endure has brought him closer to Christ than I am, even if he wasn't already there. If I could figure out how to get some food or necessities to him would he be any closer to Christ, because he has more of my stuff? Probably not. I would get closer to God by making the effort to help him. Would he want or need to have as much stuff as I do? Or would he be better off getting what he needs, and knowledge and tools to better take care of himself and his flock in the environment he is living in? Would he get closer to God and learn more if he was given just as much stuff as I have, or if he was given sufficient, and given the opportunity to grow his own life and help others to grow also?

Also, am I better somehow, because I live in a reasonably prosperous and comfortable country, or is it possible that that Bishop's soul was chosen, because of his valiance in the pre-existence to live in that difficult environment, because he would be better at helping other Venezuelan saints through this difficult time?

The only thing we can control now is where we are going, but where we are is important, and the sooner and more aggressively we "Lengthen our stride" in following Christ, the better place we will be, and sooner we will get there.

John 14:2

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And I think a focus on some "magical" God Socialism where God just gives everybody an equal share of stuff, glory, or whatever is delusional, and any view of the Celestial Kingdom, the Law of Consecration or any other part of salvation as a holy socialist world is also delusional!

Regards,

George Clay