Can the Church survive growing LDS feminism?

[Fiannan]

For Mormons in Utah, that’s the equivalent of three LDS women for every two LDS men.

Jon Birger, author of “Date-onomics: How Dating Became a Lopsided Numbers Game” gave one possible explanation for the deficit of Mormon men in an interview with The Universe.

“For Mormons, ARIS concluded that young men are leaving the LDS Church at a higher rate than young women, because the growing importance of the mission in Mormon life,” Birger said in an online message. “Fifty years ago, a man could forgo a mission and still be active in the church and in church leadership. According to ARIS, today’s young men who forgo missions wind up feeling alienated from the church because of their non-RM status; a significant number of them drop out of the church as a result.

http://universe.byu.edu/2015/10/20/rati ... than-men1/

Of course some experts have noted that when such imbalances exist women young women will give of themselves sexually to catch and keep available men. And Mormon gals may do this even more as the importance of getting an active male is very much a part of her overall salvation (easier to repent than miss an opportunity at getting Mr. Right). I will also note that a while back I posted articles about the growing number of single LDS women going in for sperm donor services (again, easier to ask forgiveness than permission). Also, Utah is one of the leading areas for breast enlargements (the whole point of large breasts in primates is nourishing young, but humans have exaggerated breasts as a means to signal fertility to males).

Of course many, many LDS women will not find Mr. Right, and they will wait too long to get artificial insemination. What is the sociological impact of having a growing number of middle-aged, single, childless LDS women? Liberalism and feminism.

A general rule is that the "gender gap" disappears if you erase single women from the statistics. Why? Women get way more conservative once they marry and start reproducing. One explanation is that the maternal drive of single women often is projected out, beyond family, to such causes as animal rights or being pro-immigration. Married women with children are far more likely to see their children as central and, while they care for other people, the interests and future of her offspring is paramount. If we see a growing number of LDS single women then we will most certainly see a growing voice of projected interests that will undoubtedly gravitate to liberal causes and feminism eventually. So what impact will this have? We would not want to loose these women because they probably will be income earners and obviously tithe payers. However, the disconnect between frustrated desires to have babies and the realization they will never have this option may even create hyper-feminism.

So how will the Church fare? Already Church leaders are scared that the Church will no longer be an intergenerational institution so how might shrinking numbers combined with growing feminism affect the socio-political aspect of LDS life?

[inho]

If we see a growing number of LDS single women [...] what impact will this have?

I think this is the question. There probably will be some impact even if they were not liberal feminists. How can the church best take into account the growing number of single women? How do we help them feel welcome in the church that teaches that a traditional nuclear family is the ideal? And could they take a more active role in the running of the affairs of the church? For example, are there some non-priesthood callings that could be extended to women (such as clerks or SS presidents)?

[Fiannan]

If we see a growing number of LDS single women [...] what impact will this have?

I think this is the question. There probably will be some impact even if they were not liberal feminists. How can the church best take into account the growing number of single women? How do we help them feel welcome in the church that teaches that a traditional nuclear family is the ideal? And could they take a more active role in the running of the affairs of the church? For example, are there some non-priesthood callings that could be extended to women (such as clerks or SS presidents)?

The video that was leaked of the apostles worried about the demographic crisis of the Church brought this up too. What I found ironic was the reverse sexism involved with them and this post. Rather maybe than wonder what do do with a growing number of Mormon nuns maybe there should be a huge focus on how to keep young men from leaving in the first place.

[inho]

Rather maybe than wonder what do do with a growing number of Mormon nuns maybe there should be a huge focus on how to keep young men from leaving in the first place.

You are right. And I think that both the general authorities and the local leaders spend a lot of time pondering that. However, it is possible to think about several things at the same time. There are and has always been single sisters in the church. It is good to also think how to help them.

[h_p]

What I found ironic was the reverse sexism involved with them and this post.

Isn't it interesting that you used the term "reverse sexism?" Probably without even realizing what it's implying. I'm not criticizing, but it's just evidence of the cultural conditioning we've all unconsciously learned that "sexism" means men treating women unfairly. Same for "reverse racism," as if these things are the exception to the rule that white males are the offenders, and the minority sex and races are for the most part innocent.

What this translates to is that the minority classes are afforded much more leeway for the same sins than we are. This is why a feminist can say "being pro-women does not make you anti-men" and then in the very next breath shout, "I hate all men" and not even think twice about it (something I actually saw on twitter from a feminist in my ward).

Sorry, it's a little off-topic, but I had to point it out.

[sandman45]

feminism branches from communism.. we do NOT need feminism it will destroy the family and society as a whole.

what we need is Strong and Bearded men. Stop emasculating the men. Women in charge is the problem. Women at work is a problem (although it is difficult now days for a family to live on 1 income but its possible I and others I know do it.)

1 cor 14:
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Tim 2: 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

The sacrifices which the man makes in the struggle of his nation, the woman makes in the preservation of that nation in individual cases. What the man gives in courage on the battlefield, the woman gives in eternal self-sacrifice, in eternal pain and suffering. Every child that a woman brings into the world is a battle, a battle waged for the existence of her people. And both must therefore mutually value and respect each other when they see that each performs the task that Nature and Providence have ordained. And this mutual respect will necessarily result from this separation of the functions of each. -AH

[Michelle]

The Church can survive anything. It may be larger or smaller, members may be found more here or there than now, but there will always be wheat among the tares and righteous virgins among the foolish. This is the last dispensation. Christ will come and his Church will be here.

As Elder Holland said, we know who wins. We're just individually choosing which team we will be on right now.

[bbsion]

I know this is a touchy subject and I am not bringing it up to start a whole debate on the topic itself. I only bring it up because it was a thought I had is all. But would polygamy be better than a growing number of "Mormon nuns" or single extreme feminist women? I know what some of you will say and I know that polygamy is always a hard pill to swallow or subject to understand. It was just a brief thought. In some cases I can see it working better. In other cases I can see it going terribly wrong.

[True]

A sure way to derail a thread.

[David13]

What I found ironic was the reverse sexism involved with them and this post.

Isn't it interesting that you used the term "reverse sexism?" Probably without even realizing what it's implying. I'm not criticizing, but it's just evidence of the cultural conditioning we've all unconsciously learned that "sexism" means men treating women unfairly. Same for "reverse racism," as if these things are the exception to the rule that white males are the offenders, and the minority sex and races are for the most part innocent.

What this translates to is that the minority classes are afforded much more leeway for the same sins than we are. This is why a feminist can say "being pro-women does not make you anti-men" and then in the very next breath shout, "I hate all men" and not even think twice about it (something I actually saw on twitter from a feminist in my ward).

Sorry, it's a little off-topic, but I had to point it out.

To use the term "reverse ... "anything, racism or sexism, implies that there is a proper way for racism or sexism to go. There isn't', it can go any which way.
dc

[Juliet]

Is it a bad thing for women to marry outside of the church? I would think that if the church really is true, most men would convert in time as long as she didn't nag him about it. If being a member does have good fruit then it wouldn't be so hard. After all, God grafts people in and out as He pleases.

[Juliet]

I know this is a touchy subject and I am not bringing it up to start a whole debate on the topic itself. I only bring it up because it was a thought I had is all. But would polygamy be better than a growing number of "Mormon nuns" or single extreme feminist women? I know what some of you will say and I know that polygamy is always a hard pill to swallow or subject to understand. It was just a brief thought. In some cases I can see it working better. In other cases I can see it going terribly wrong.

Polygamy would mean all the rich men get the women, and that would cause some incredible problems for the poor single men.

The solution is to give men tools so they can actually be men. You can barely dig a hole without permission these days, let alone cut down a log and build a house to live in or better yet have a wife live in with you. You can preach at men all you want about what they are doing wrong, but even Jesus said to not cast out devils unless you have something to replace it with, or they will come back. The demons the men are facing are the result of generations of socialist principles corded around the neck of our economy one link at a time. From FDR and the new deals, to social security, to public education, to property taxes, to all the other things mentioned in the communist manifesto, we truly are without freedom in this land. And of course, feminism has been the final blow.

If we were able to give the men a little bit of land then it would be easier for them to get going with marriage and family. It really is so very hard to start a family in our economy and the regulations. It is impossible to start a business. For me to start a lemonade stand and operate it for 2 years, I would have to pay over $500 for just 1 permission contract from the county, which must be renewed every 2 years. How can any body set up any kind of business with that kind of regulation?

I cannot even let my 7 year old ride his bike without supervision these days. How are we supposed to raise boys? Girls are still fine, because cooking and cleaning is not illegal. But any kind of manly work is basically outlawed in our country.

[MMbelieve]

I know this is a touchy subject and I am not bringing it up to start a whole debate on the topic itself. I only bring it up because it was a thought I had is all. But would polygamy be better than a growing number of "Mormon nuns" or single extreme feminist women? I know what some of you will say and I know that polygamy is always a hard pill to swallow or subject to understand. It was just a brief thought. In some cases I can see it working better. In other cases I can see it going terribly wrong.

Polygamy would mean all the rich men get the women, and that would cause some incredible problems for the poor single men.

The solution is to give men tools so they can actually be men. You can barely dig a hole without permission these days, let alone cut down a log and build a house to live in or better yet have a wife live in with you. You can preach at men all you want about what they are doing wrong, but even Jesus said to not cast out devils unless you have something to replace it with, or they will come back. The demons the men are facing are the result of generations of socialist principles corded around the neck of our economy one link at a time. From FDR and the new deals, to social security, to public education, to property taxes, to all the other things mentioned in the communist manifesto, we truly are without freedom in this land. And of course, feminism has been the final blow.

If we were able to give the men a little bit of land then it would be easier for them to get going with marriage and family. It really is so very hard to start a family in our economy and the regulations. It is impossible to start a business. For me to start a lemonade stand and operate it for 2 years, I would have to pay over $500 for just 1 permission contract from the county, which must be renewed every 2 years. How can any body set up any kind of business with that kind of regulation?

I cannot even let my 7 year old ride his bike without supervision these days. How are we supposed to raise boys? Girls are still fine, because cooking and cleaning is not illegal. But any kind of manly work is basically outlawed in our country.

I disagree with your last paragraph. We can still raise boys, I'm raising one right now. He can play outside and do all the boy stuff he wants to do. I do however live outside the city where everyone has some land and a county that doesn't require permits.
He does just fine and can shoot his bb gun and blow off fireworks and build whatever he wants to build and yep, when he needs to pee he can pee like a boy outside.

A modest real hard working traditional woman cannot exist in this world unless she is in a community much like the amish. A womans value today is clearly on her appearance not her abilities.

Raising a girl to survive in this world and find a husband is not the same as it used to be. No one cares if she can cook, they care about her body size.

In a fast paced society, no one is valued beyond money and assets.

[MMbelieve]

Is it a bad thing for women to marry outside of the church? I would think that if the church really is true, most men would convert in time as long as she didn't nag him about it. If being a member does have good fruit then it wouldn't be so hard. After all, God grafts people in and out as He pleases.

If he's a good guy who will love and protect and be a good father, there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. There are men outside this church who are much better husbands and fathers than some within. Plus he won't be engrained with mormon culture.

If he does his role as a man and is good to his family and loyal to his wife, then he shouldn't have issue with the church since those are the church's standards. And eventually he may convert.

My mother married a non member and it took 15 years before he accepted the missionaries. He's a great member and a great father.

Women marrying outside the church is one way to bring more men in to the church. Men marrying outside the church proves to be a bit more challenging because men tend to follow their wives and leave the church.

I will add that I really like converts, they are some of the most "real" people the church has.

[Fiannan]

If he's a good guy who will love and protect and be a good father, there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. There are men outside this church who are much better husbands and fathers than some within. Plus he won't be engrained with mormon culture.

Well, if no other possibility exists then better than spinsterhood.

Women marrying outside the church is one way to bring more men in to the church. Men marrying outside the church proves to be a bit more challenging because men tend to follow their wives and leave the church.

I will add that I really like converts, they are some of the most "real" people the church has.

Statistically that is wrong. Up to half of all women who marry an active LDS man convert to the Church while far, far fewer men who marry active LDS women join the Church.

[Fiannan]

Polygamy would mean all the rich men get the women, and that would cause some incredible problems for the poor single men.

No it would not. Not to derail here but while it would be true that rich Mormon men would wind up with more wives overall there would be plenty of women who would go for other men. Look at universities -- how many married male professors in their 50s and 6os wind up in relationships with students (many lasting for years, even after the female student graduates)? Plenty. And professors are not rich by any means of measurement. Look at creative men like musicians. My son has a part time gig going on and he is a ramen and egg eating student -- and yes, gals really do throw themselves at such men. Of course fat dudes who have no social skills and don't excel in either money-making or creativity would not contribute to the gene pool, but who says they should? Could such men donate to a sperm bank? No. And we all know why. So what gives them a right, unless they can make something of themselves, to marry and reproduce?

[gclayjr]

Juliet,

Polygamy would mean all the rich men get the women, and that would cause some incredible problems for the poor single men.

That is exactly what is happening today in countries that practice polygamy. You read biographies written by women from these countries and their lives are also miserable, because they are little more than property. Poor men's only access to women is via houses of prostitution which are also rampant in these countries. These are brutal, cruel societies.

It is my understanding that even during the days of plural marriage in Utah, that only a relatively few men actually had multiple wives. I think polygamy, by its nature is a stopgap, so that all women have the opportunity for a celestial marriage. The math says that this will only happen under certain circumstances, and usually probably for only a few men.

That is why I believe that even in the celestial kingdom, while plural marriage may be a celestial law, few will actually have more than 1 wife.

Regards,

George Clay

[bbsion]

A sure way to derail a thread.

Were you talking to me? Because I thought what I said was completely relevant.

[Juliet]

Polygamy would mean all the rich men get the women, and that would cause some incredible problems for the poor single men.

No it would not. Not to derail here but while it would be true that rich Mormon men would wind up with more wives overall there would be plenty of women who would go for other men. Look at universities -- how many married male professors in their 50s and 6os wind up in relationships with students (many lasting for years, even after the female student graduates)? Plenty. And professors are not rich by any means of measurement. Look at creative men like musicians. My son has a part time gig going on and he is a ramen and egg eating student -- and yes, gals really do throw themselves at such men. Of course fat dudes who have no social skills and don't excel in either money-making or creativity would not contribute to the gene pool, but who says they should? Could such men donate to a sperm bank? No. And we all know why. So what gives them a right, unless they can make something of themselves, to marry and reproduce?

The way you look at it is different than I. It is wonderful that some men have an easy time getting women, but then, instead of saying too bad for all the loser men, maybe they can teach and help the other men become better suitors.

Fat dudes with no social skills have a gift somehow in something and we need a culture of lifting each other up and out more than competition.

And in my opinion, female students are probably not normally interested in a sexual relationship with a 50 to 60 year old man. Why can't men of older age nurture and father in the younger men and teach them how to be good men instead of think that 20 to 30 year old girls have any where near the sexual reciprocity that an old man does, most of these women have never had sex before even once. For an old guy to look at someone that young and inexperienced as a possible help meet are more like predators, because young women don't think of men sexually, they see men as fathers. And so women will hold on to that emotional connection for a long time, especially because teachers are very kind, smart, and caring. They do not think that the professor has any sexual attraction to them and if they knew they would be grossed out. Old men should be wise enough to know this.

I had no idea what men were really like until after I got married. Then I understood why the old testament says that for the first year of marriage, a man should stay home and comfort his wife. Women are all about emotional connection, and the first year of marriage can be a little traumatic to find out that men are not that way until they get older. So yeah, girls will appreciate men who can have a conversation and guide them, but that doesn't mean they are of help meet status. It means the younger guys need fathering.

I am not saying those kinds of relationships can't happen, but it would be much better if it were a younger widow that was falling for the older guy. That would be much more equal for her because she would understand the whole picture of men both sexually and emotionally.
I am sorry, probably there is way too much information in this post.

[MMbelieve]

Polygamy would mean all the rich men get the women, and that would cause some incredible problems for the poor single men.

No it would not. Not to derail here but while it would be true that rich Mormon men would wind up with more wives overall there would be plenty of women who would go for other men. Look at universities -- how many married male professors in their 50s and 6os wind up in relationships with students (many lasting for years, even after the female student graduates)? Plenty. And professors are not rich by any means of measurement. Look at creative men like musicians. My son has a part time gig going on and he is a ramen and egg eating student -- and yes, gals really do throw themselves at such men. Of course fat dudes who have no social skills and don't excel in either money-making or creativity would not contribute to the gene pool, but who says they should? Could such men donate to a sperm bank? No. And we all know why. So what gives them a right, unless they can make something of themselves, to marry and reproduce?

Wow.

Do women always have the right to reproduce? Cause they are the other 50% contributing to the offspring. If a man can be disqualified to you to have the right to procreate, then a woman must also.

Now our worthy potential gene pool candidates are a much smaller group and they can repopulate the world 2x2. You take out all the unhealthy, fat, - opps...that just pretty much eliminated all women from reproducing, lol. Isint it you that believes most women are fat and breaking the law for being so? And then add to the list of elimination: femanist, unattractive, no economical value, uneducated, no cooking skills, and lousy at sex. You may end up with the same number of alpha males as alpha females in the end. I mean your plan can absolutely work but it's not likely it will be unbalanced so no polygamy would be needed.

[MMbelieve]

Polygamy would mean all the rich men get the women, and that would cause some incredible problems for the poor single men.

No it would not. Not to derail here but while it would be true that rich Mormon men would wind up with more wives overall there would be plenty of women who would go for other men. Look at universities -- how many married male professors in their 50s and 6os wind up in relationships with students (many lasting for years, even after the female student graduates)? Plenty. And professors are not rich by any means of measurement. Look at creative men like musicians. My son has a part time gig going on and he is a ramen and egg eating student -- and yes, gals really do throw themselves at such men. Of course fat dudes who have no social skills and don't excel in either money-making or creativity would not contribute to the gene pool, but who says they should? Could such men donate to a sperm bank? No. And we all know why. So what gives them a right, unless they can make something of themselves, to marry and reproduce?

The way you look at it is different than I. It is wonderful that some men have an easy time getting women, but then, instead of saying too bad for all the loser men, maybe they can teach and help the other men become better suitors.

Fat dudes with no social skills have a gift somehow in something and we need a culture of lifting each other up and out more than competition.

And in my opinion, female students are probably not normally interested in a sexual relationship with a 50 to 60 year old man. Why can't men of older age nurture and father in the younger men and teach them how to be good men instead of think that 20 to 30 year old girls have any where near the sexual reciprocity that an old man does, most of these women have never had sex before even once. For an old guy to look at someone that young and inexperienced as a possible help meet are more like predators, because young women don't think of men sexually, they see men as fathers. And so women will hold on to that emotional connection for a long time, especially because teachers are very kind, smart, and caring. They do not think that the professor has any sexual attraction to them and if they knew they would be grossed out. Old men should be wise enough to know this.

I had no idea what men were really like until after I got married. Then I understood why the old testament says that for the first year of marriage, a man should stay home and comfort his wife. Women are all about emotional connection, and the first year of marriage can be a little traumatic to find out that men are not that way until they get older. So yeah, girls will appreciate men who can have a conversation and guide them, but that doesn't mean they are of help meet status. It means the younger guys need fathering.

I am not saying those kinds of relationships can't happen, but it would be much better if it were a younger widow that was falling for the older guy. That would be much more equal for her because she would understand the whole picture of men both sexually and emotionally.
I am sorry, probably there is way too much information in this post.

Men compete too much to help one another in this area. And it doesn't seem to matter how old they are, they compete.

Much of what you said though about raising up men is what a father is supposed to do. I in this world of absent father and poor examples of fathers, it's no wonder so many young men aren't raised to be men.

I do like the older generation mentoring the younger generation though and have for a while now wondered why we don't employ our older relief society women to teach the younger women. The poor old ladies just sit there, no one uses their life experience as a benefit to others.

[RAB]

Is it a bad thing for women to marry outside of the church? I would think that if the church really is true, most men would convert in time as long as she didn't nag him about it. If being a member does have good fruit then it wouldn't be so hard. After all, God grafts people in and out as He pleases.

I don't think the statistics bear that out. Statistically it is relatively few men or women who convert to the gospel simply because they married a Mormon. It happens, but it is a large minority of the time. In general, I think it is a bad idea to go into a marriage expecting someone to change something as fundamental as their religious beliefs. You have to take people where they are when you get married. I am not saying people don't change. But people change when they want to change, and religious beliefs is one of those things most people just don't want to change.

[Juliet]

Men compete too much to help one another in this area. And it doesn't seem to matter how old they are, they compete.

Much of what you said though about raising up men is what a father is supposed to do. I in this world of absent father and poor examples of fathers, it's no wonder so many young men aren't raised to be men.

I do like the older generation mentoring the younger generation though and have for a while now wondered why we don't employ our older relief society women to teach the younger women. The poor old ladies just sit there, no one uses their life experience as a benefit to others.

Well if older men still feel the need to compete, then they are not getting their needs met from their marriages assuming they are still married. In that case it is true that women are lacking in education, and I am not sure the older ladies have the answers, but together we can figure it out. The media would portray men as pigs that are never satisfied, but if women were smarter at taking care of their husband's needs, then they would have nothing left to compete with anybody else. Research is coming out showing that women can be much more demanding than men, if only women felt safe to get in touch with themselves instead of feeling guilty about it. When both partners sexual and emotional needs are met, there is nothing left to do but to help others become as blissful as you, if anything just by setting an example.

[RAB]

Juliet,

Polygamy would mean all the rich men get the women, and that would cause some incredible problems for the poor single men.

That is exactly what is happening today in countries that practice polygamy. You read biographies written by women from these countries and their lives are also miserable, because they are little more than property. Poor men's only access to women is via houses of prostitution which are also rampant in these countries. These are brutal, cruel societies.

It is my understanding that even during the days of plural marriage in Utah, that only a relatively few men actually had multiple wives. I think polygamy, by its nature is a stopgap, so that all women have the opportunity for a celestial marriage. The math says that this will only happen under certain circumstances, and usually probably for only a few men.

That is why I believe that even in the celestial kingdom, while plural marriage may be a celestial law, few will actually have more than 1 wife.

Regards,

George Clay

I concur with all you say. I believe it is the exception to the rule of monogamy, just as Jacob declared it was in the Book of Mormon. It seems from what the D&C says about it, Joseph was required to institute it because he was curious, and perhaps just a little judgmental about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc.

From Section 132:
"1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—"

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same."

So the Lord says, whenever someone starts questioning me about it, I make them live it...presumably so they can see how NOT AWESOME it really is. Please pardon my modern-day parlance, but that is the way I think about it.

[Sandinista]

I think that we need to be careful with using statistics taken from the Church population in Utah and applying analysis derived from them to the rest of the Church worldwide. I am in the Branch Presidency of a YSA Branch in the mid-west and we have a ratio of 2 active men to every 1 active woman in our Branch. We average about 50-60 attendance at Sacrament so we are a decent size Branch. We talk all the time about the lack of active LDS women compared to active LDS men in our Branch, which draws membership from two stakes.