Can the Church survive growing LDS feminism?

[MMbelieve]

Men compete too much to help one another in this area. And it doesn't seem to matter how old they are, they compete.

Much of what you said though about raising up men is what a father is supposed to do. I in this world of absent father and poor examples of fathers, it's no wonder so many young men aren't raised to be men.

I do like the older generation mentoring the younger generation though and have for a while now wondered why we don't employ our older relief society women to teach the younger women. The poor old ladies just sit there, no one uses their life experience as a benefit to others.

Well if older men still feel the need to compete, then they are not getting their needs met from their marriages assuming they are still married. In that case it is true that women are lacking in education, and I am not sure the older ladies have the answers, but together we can figure it out. The media would portray men as pigs that are never satisfied, but if women were smarter at taking care of their husband's needs, then they would have nothing left to compete with anybody else. Research is coming out showing that women can be much more demanding than men, if only women felt safe to get in touch with themselves instead of feeling guilty about it. When both partners sexual and emotional needs are met, there is nothing left to do but to help others become as blissful as you, if anything just by setting an example.

That is a nice thought but it's not a good idea to blame women for not being sexual enough when their husbands stray. And there are plenty of men who have a wife satisfying their needs but they still keep looking around.

Many believe men are wired for multiple partners and that monogamy isint easy for men. This also goes against the idea that 1 woman doing her best as a wife will keep a man happy. They get bored of the same thing, unfortunately. And when men have any issues they deal with, they don't usually talk about it which makes it impossible for a wife to support him especially when he finds other ways to cope with emotions he can't express.

I do however agree with you on the fact that we need to be there supporting eachother and should be happy and complete doing that. In an ideal world this would happen.

[MMbelieve]

I think that we need to be careful with using statistics taken from the Church population in Utah and applying analysis derived from them to the rest of the Church worldwide. I am in the Branch Presidency of a YSA Branch in the mid-west and we have a ratio of 2 active men to every 1 active woman in our Branch. We average about 50-60 attendance at Sacrament so we are a decent size Branch. We talk all the time about the lack of active LDS women compared to active LDS men in our Branch, which draws membership from two stakes.

I agree, most of what I hear from people about a shortage of men or this or that other thing, I just don't see here and haven't really understood why it keeps being said I thought for sure I must be out of touch or something.

Then we need to be careful to not apply our way of church life with other countries as well. I believe I heard that the church is now larger outside the US than it is inside.

[Juliet]

Men compete too much to help one another in this area. And it doesn't seem to matter how old they are, they compete.

Much of what you said though about raising up men is what a father is supposed to do. I in this world of absent father and poor examples of fathers, it's no wonder so many young men aren't raised to be men.

I do like the older generation mentoring the younger generation though and have for a while now wondered why we don't employ our older relief society women to teach the younger women. The poor old ladies just sit there, no one uses their life experience as a benefit to others.

Well if older men still feel the need to compete, then they are not getting their needs met from their marriages assuming they are still married. In that case it is true that women are lacking in education, and I am not sure the older ladies have the answers, but together we can figure it out. The media would portray men as pigs that are never satisfied, but if women were smarter at taking care of their husband's needs, then they would have nothing left to compete with anybody else. Research is coming out showing that women can be much more demanding than men, if only women felt safe to get in touch with themselves instead of feeling guilty about it. When both partners sexual and emotional needs are met, there is nothing left to do but to help others become as blissful as you, if anything just by setting an example.

That is a nice thought but it's not a good idea to blame women for not being sexual enough when their husbands stray. And there are plenty of men who have a wife satisfying their needs but they still keep looking around.

Many believe men are wired for multiple partners and that monogamy isint easy for men. This also goes against the idea that 1 woman doing her best as a wife will keep a man happy. They get bored of the same thing, unfortunately. And when men have any issues they deal with, they don't usually talk about it which makes it impossible for a wife to support him especially when he finds other ways to cope with emotions he can't express.

I do however agree with you on the fact that we need to be there supporting eachother and should be happy and complete doing that. In an ideal world this would happen.

That is why I said both emotional and sexual needs, it can't just be sexual for men either. As far as men getting bored of the same thing, all things get boring after a while. I still hold on to the idea it could be possible for both a man and a woman to find joy in their relationship and not need to look elsewhere. Either that or both men and women are wired for multiple partners. But then why do we have the commandment to not commit adultery? I know the D&C 132 says there is more to be revealed on the polygamy thing. I am ready God, bring it down because all of this gets confusing.

[Benjamin_LK]

I think that we need to be careful with using statistics taken from the Church population in Utah and applying analysis derived from them to the rest of the Church worldwide. I am in the Branch Presidency of a YSA Branch in the mid-west and we have a ratio of 2 active men to every 1 active woman in our Branch. We average about 50-60 attendance at Sacrament so we are a decent size Branch. We talk all the time about the lack of active LDS women compared to active LDS men in our Branch, which draws membership from two stakes.

The majority of the total membership of the church has been outside of the United States for almost 20 years.

[Michelle]

I do like the older generation mentoring the younger generation though and have for a while now wondered why we don't employ our older relief society women to teach the younger women. The poor old ladies just sit there, no one uses their life experience as a benefit to others.

I have tried to take advantage of being friends with much older relief society ladies (those born before 1950) and it had been very worthwhile experience. A practical example, I have lived in two separate houses without AC for almost 10 years in Utah. Hot in the summer doesn't do it justice. But, an older sister (104 at the time) in my last ward told me to open all the windows before 5 am to keep the house cooler. Also, water is the most amazing air conditioner. Just head to the sink and put some on your arms, legs, face, any exposed skin no matter the temperature and it works immediately. (If anybody has ever watched the old cowboy movies and wondered why they soaked their bandannas and tied them around their necks: that is why, instant AC.)

Having said that, most of those available now came to be adults during the 70's and didn't bring the old skills forward with them. Again, not all of them, but many seem to be fully integrated in Bablyon with regard to debt, food choices, marriage relationships (feminism and birth control), "buy it, don't make it," lots of high school clic like behavior. Again, not all, but man it is hard to find a grown up among the old teenagers. It is sad to be sure to see what was lost, skill people don't even know existed ever:

https://www.lds.org/callings/young-wome ... n?lang=eng

"Similar to the eight values in the current Young Women program, young women of the past completed requirements in seven “fields” of personal improvement: Religion, Home, Health, Domestic Arts, Out of Doors, Business, and Public Service, choosing projects from over 300 options. In 1915, those options included:

Care successfully for a hive of bees for one season and know their habits.
During two weeks, keep the house free from flies, or destroy at least 25 flies daily.
Each day for one month, commit to memory a quotation from either Bible, Book of Mormon, or Doctrine and Covenants.
During three consecutive months abstain, between meals, from candy, ice cream, sundaes, sodas, commercially manufactured beverages, and chewing gum.
Mend six pairs of stockings, two knitted undergarments, and hem six dish-towels.
During three months, assist the Relief Society in their work of caring for the poor and sick.
Without help or advice, care for and harness a team at least five times [and] drive 50 miles during one season.
Clear sagebrush off of one-half acre of land."

I remember other items like knowing the different cries of a baby, knowledge about plants and animals, sanitation requirements (toilet care), some seriously strenuous physical feats, etc.

[Fiannan]

Do women always have the right to reproduce? Cause they are the other 50% contributing to the offspring. If a man can be disqualified to you to have the right to procreate, then a woman must also.

Overall lesbian couples have the best kids socially and in regards to academic achievement? Now why is that? Of course the people who side with nurture over nature will say that if you have two nurturing women who really wanted their babies (no accidental pregnancies with lesbians) then that must be it. They generally ignore the fact that these women usually go to sperm banks to get pregnant. This reproductive option tends to screen out men with any questionable mental or physical issues and puts a premium on intelligence.

So as more and more women (including LDS) find themselves turning to sperm banks then we can predict this will bump the quality of children up, even if we assume the women are average in all aspects. I actually have speculated this is the NWO plan for the future where women will form modified polygamist arrangements.

[Gage]

Do women always have the right to reproduce? Cause they are the other 50% contributing to the offspring. If a man can be disqualified to you to have the right to procreate, then a woman must also.

Overall lesbian couples have the best kids socially and in regards to academic achievement? Now why is that? Of course the people who side with nurture over nature will say that if you have two nurturing women who really wanted their babies (no accidental pregnancies with lesbians) then that must be it. They generally ignore the fact that these women usually go to sperm banks to get pregnant. This reproductive option tends to screen out men with any questionable mental or physical issues and puts a premium on intelligence.

So as more and more women (including LDS) find themselves turning to sperm banks then we can predict this will bump the quality of children up, even if we assume the women are average in all aspects. I actually have speculated this is the NWO plan for the future where women will form modified polygamist arrangements.

Where is this happening? Where are all these single LDS Feminist women that go to sperm banks? The only single females I see are recently divorced and actively seeking a new mate.

[Fiannan]

And in my opinion, female students are probably not normally interested in a sexual relationship with a 50 to 60 year old man. Why can't men of older age nurture and father in the younger men and teach them how to be good men instead of think that 20 to 30 year old girls have any where near the sexual reciprocity that an old man does, most of these women have never had sex before even once. For an old guy to look at someone that young and inexperienced as a possible help meet are more like predators, because young women don't think of men sexually, they see men as fathers. And so women will hold on to that emotional connection for a long time, especially because teachers are very kind, smart, and caring. They do not think that the professor has any sexual attraction to them and if they knew they would be grossed out. Old men should be wise enough to know this.

Say what? I merely was saying that income is not always the determining factor in attraction; quite often intelligence is. I see a lot of this in the artistic community. Men who are painters, writers or musicians often have girlfriends more than half their age. And many of these men are not very well off. I even see old hippie guys with several female "groupies" who hang onto the guy's word but, sadly, even though they would marry him if given the choice, the men are usually in it for the sex or ego.

Now as for what you said about sex. Women nowadays are a totally different breed. The 18-25 age group has probably had several male partners in their lives and, generally, at least one lesbian relationship under her belt. And I have spoken to enough professors to say that many young students will stalk them or even go so far as to not just flirt, but sit in the front row wearing skirts but nothing underneath so he will have to take notice during his lectures. Age seems to be an artificial construct with many Mormons probably because of repressing the history of early prophets who often married 18-21 year-olds when they were in their 60s. Then again, were these women forced? No they were not.

As for teachers being kind and compassionate, maybe grade school teachers; not so for professors. I have enough in my family and experience with them to know that the ones who act like Snape in Harry Potter are the ones who have the groupies.

[Fiannan]

Where is this happening? Where are all these single LDS Feminist women that go to sperm banks? The only single females I see are recently divorced and actively seeking a new mate.

Time magazine: "What Two Religions Tell us About the Modern Dating Crisis"

Yes, she told me, the ratios are lopsided. And yes, Mormon men take full advantage. “They wait for the next, more perfect woman,” grumbled Bowman, a veterinarian in San Diego. Premarital sex remains taboo for Mormons, but the shortage of Mormon men was pushing some women over the brink. “There might actually be a more promiscuous dating culture than there otherwise would be in the Mormon culture because of this gap.”

and...

Hunt, a 35-year-old who only recently got married herself, told me she has three times more single women than single men in her matchmaking database. She shared stories of devout Mormon women who wound up marrying outside the religion—officially known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints—simply because they had no other options. She has ten friends—“all good LDS girls!”—who gave up on finding a husband and decided to have children on their own. Said Hunt, “My heartstrings are pulled daily.”

http://time.com/dateonomics/

[Sunain]

The 3 female to 1 male stats are nonsense, at least in Canada and I'd say church-wide too. There seems to be a lack of worthy women here and the article you linked to also points that out as an issue. Perhaps that's why there are a lot of unmarried women in Utah and has become issue, if it is truly an issue. None of the stats had any legitimate sources.

Edits for spelling.

[bbsion]

Do women always have the right to reproduce? Cause they are the other 50% contributing to the offspring. If a man can be disqualified to you to have the right to procreate, then a woman must also.

Overall lesbian couples have the best kids socially and in regards to academic achievement? Now why is that? Of course the people who side with nurture over nature will say that if you have two nurturing women who really wanted their babies (no accidental pregnancies with lesbians) then that must be it. They generally ignore the fact that these women usually go to sperm banks to get pregnant. This reproductive option tends to screen out men with any questionable mental or physical issues and puts a premium on intelligence.

So as more and more women (including LDS) find themselves turning to sperm banks then we can predict this will bump the quality of children up, even if we assume the women are average in all aspects. I actually have speculated this is the NWO plan for the future where women will form modified polygamist arrangements.

I do not believe that having more and more women going to sperm banks will bump the quality of children up. Nor do I believe that lesbian couples have the best kids socially. I believe the exact opposite. Sorry if I read your post wrong.

[Gage]

Well I guess its just different in my neck of the woods. I've seen Mormon girls pass on return missionaries and faithful devout Mormon men to marry rich non member men with big houses and nice cars and a boat. And as I mentioned, I cannot think of not one single female member of the church over 18 between 3 separate surrounding wards. They are either married/dating a member of the church or drag their non member husband/boyfriend to church with them.

[Matchmaker]

A lot of the time if a woman has high values and standards and lowers them significantly in order to marry, she will find no shortage of willing partners, as less worthy men will see her as a pearl and will be drawn to her over some of the loose women they may have been previously dating. However, the odds of divorce down the road can skyrocket in these instances once the woman has had her children because she may see him as a bad influence on her children and her protective instincts will kick in and take preference over her drive to be part of a couple. It really depends on what the woman wants.

I can find a companion for any woman or man who truly wants to get married. It's one of my gifts. I have done it many times over. I can't guarantee the marriage will last. That is up to them. I'm not a magician or a Prophet, just a Matchmaker, and a good one too!

[Serragon]

No matter the problem, feminists know the culprit.. men!

Now men are driving good LDS women to promiscuity by 1) not being righteous enough to be in the marriage pool or 2) being too dang picky if they are in the pool.

It seems that to feminists, the negative choices women make are always due to the influence of men.

Is it possible that these choices men are making might in large part be due to the feminism that has taken over our culture since the 1960s?

[nvr]

Clearly, Fiannan, the answer is re-instituting polygamy, as you have so subtly hinted in most of your threads. I wonder what you think when you read vv 5-7 in Jacob 3?

[Fiannan]

Clearly, Fiannan, the answer is re-instituting polygamy, as you have so subtly hinted in most of your threads. I wonder what you think when you read vv 5-7 in Jacob 3?

That it was speaking of taking excess, not the practice of polygamy itself.

[nvr]

I think it pretty clearly speaks against polygamy itself:

5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

6 And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people.

7 Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your great Creator?

[brianj]

Am I the only one here to approach this subject with some critical thinking?

The OP cited an article in the Daily Universe. That article cited another article in Time Magazine. Let's take a look at it, shall we?
http://time.com/dateonomics/

One of the first things I notice is that the author's primary source is a friend to the author, described as: "a leader of Ordain Women." Do you all take anything a leader of Ordain Women says as entirely truthful?
If you take a closer look, there's an interactive map that conveniently skews the reader's perception by being pre-set to show the ratio of single men with university degrees to single women with university degrees. In the 18 to 45 age range men without degrees outnumber women without degrees.

I will readily concede that it appears men who divorce are far more likely to turn away from their covenants, but I have seen a great deal to demonstrate that men who don't measure up to a woman's expectations of education or income appear invisible to those women. And we've been fed plenty of nonsensical false teachings about men and women over the years. Men are ordained to the priesthood to bring them up to the level of women - how many times have you heard that lesson? By claiming that most men are already inferior to women instead of pointing out that we express spirituality differently, a lot of guys who could otherwise be really great husbands are dismissed because they don't measure up to a woman's expectation of how to express that spirituality.

I will conclude by pointing out that this article was initially published in 2015, and the author appeared quick to concede that lowering the age of missionary service has caused a lot more young men to go on missions rather than turning away from the gospel.

[brianj]

Overall lesbian couples have the best kids socially and in regards to academic achievement? Now why is that? Of course the people who side with nurture over nature will say that if you have two nurturing women who really wanted their babies (no accidental pregnancies with lesbians) then that must be it. They generally ignore the fact that these women usually go to sperm banks to get pregnant. This reproductive option tends to screen out men with any questionable mental or physical issues and puts a premium on intelligence.

What's your source on the claim that lesbian couples have the best kids socially and academically?
I have a hard time believing that since lesbian couples have the highest rates of domestic violence among straight couples, gay couples, and lesbian couples. Source: CDC’s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey.

[Fiannan]

Overall lesbian couples have the best kids socially and in regards to academic achievement? Now why is that? Of course the people who side with nurture over nature will say that if you have two nurturing women who really wanted their babies (no accidental pregnancies with lesbians) then that must be it. They generally ignore the fact that these women usually go to sperm banks to get pregnant. This reproductive option tends to screen out men with any questionable mental or physical issues and puts a premium on intelligence.

What's your source on the claim that lesbian couples have the best kids socially and academically?
I have a hard time believing that since lesbian couples have the highest rates of domestic violence among straight couples, gay couples, and lesbian couples. Source: CDC’s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey.

http://content.time.com/time/health/art ... 80,00.html

Of course some time ago I linked the study rather than a media source but for now, here it is.

I am aware of the domestic abuse in regards to lesbian couples. One wonders if there have been studies on those with and without children. One could speculate that those with children might be less inclined to be abusive since they are channeling natural maternal instincts to their kids rather than repressing them and thus creating anxiety in the relationship. And my point originally is that (at least in regards to academics and other social indicators) is that children from donor services (be they for lesbians or couples where the husband is sterile) will probably fare better since you are screening for the most desirable male contributions.

[Fiannan]

Men are ordained to the priesthood to bring them up to the level of women - how many times have you heard that lesson? By claiming that most men are already inferior to women instead of pointing out that we express spirituality differently, a lot of guys who could otherwise be really great husbands are dismissed because they don't measure up to a woman's expectation of how to express that spirituality.

Yeah, maybe we should dispense with priesthood lessons and instead play episodes of Say Yes to the Dress and Ellen to get men to the higher levels of modern American women.

[brlenox]

I will add that I really like converts, they are some of the most "real" people the church has.

OOOO!! OOOOO!!! I'm a convert does that mean you like me too? I knew it. Golly gee wilikers...

[MMbelieve]

I will add that I really like converts, they are some of the most "real" people the church has.

OOOO!! OOOOO!!! I'm a convert does that mean you like me too? I knew it. Golly gee wilikers...

Huh?

Do you try to get people to NOT like you?

[brlenox]

I will add that I really like converts, they are some of the most "real" people the church has.

OOOO!! OOOOO!!! I'm a convert does that mean you like me too? I knew it. Golly gee wilikers...

Huh?

Do you try to get people to NOT like you?

^#(^

You know how when you were kids your big brother would do things just to get you riled up and your mom would say..."well if you didn't respond like that he wouldn't tease you... Well sometimes just for fun I'm that immature little twerp that just can't pass up an opportunity to needle someone just for the reaction. You have been wonderfully consistent in the way that only subjective thinkers are of always providing a humorous heightened emotional response. It can be very entertaining.

As far as people not liking me - it doesn't happen in real life. I'm affable, funny, brilliantly intelligent, with keen insight and wondrously capable of speaking on practically any subject with candor and insight. Of course if blarsen see's this he is the only one that knows me and can vouch for my naturally effervescent and bubbly demeanor. The only downside to me is that in my later years, I've lost my body builder physique and my A bracket racquetball finesse and have slid into a very unhealthy state these past 5 years or so. Not sure why but I don't let it get me down. Instead I come here to interact with such wonderful people as yourself.

As far as me not liking someone, it doesn't occur to me. I even like people like you. I know that may sound even more amazing than my autobiographical sketch of the finer points of my personality but what can I say. Where would we be if all of us were the same and especially if we didn't have some of those irrational types that subjectively spin and twirl and wander from one moment to the next saying one thing and then completely reversing themselves in the next. Oh my goodness - have you no idea of the entertainment value? So I tend to be quite fond of practically everyone and only once in a while encounter someone that is challenging in a personality sort of way. I do suffer with the ignorant who can't think their way out of a paper bag, but I just know that someday I will be a better man having finally learned how to love others in spite of their stupidity. I mean I can look forward to the miraculous, can't I? B-(

Well, thank you sooo much for asking, I've quite enjoyed this little trip down the yellow brick road....and you have a wonderful day. bye now... ~X(

[Fiannan]

Juliet,

Polygamy would mean all the rich men get the women, and that would cause some incredible problems for the poor single men.

That is exactly what is happening today in countries that practice polygamy. You read biographies written by women from these countries and their lives are also miserable, because they are little more than property. Poor men's only access to women is via houses of prostitution which are also rampant in these countries. These are brutal, cruel societies.

It is my understanding that even during the days of plural marriage in Utah, that only a relatively few men actually had multiple wives. I think polygamy, by its nature is a stopgap, so that all women have the opportunity for a celestial marriage. The math says that this will only happen under certain circumstances, and usually probably for only a few men.

That is why I believe that even in the celestial kingdom, while plural marriage may be a celestial law, few will actually have more than 1 wife.

Regards,

George Clay

And yet guys like this defy the notion that there is an equal number of men for women. Just think, if he converted to the Church and maybe a few hundred of his kids followed and had themselves sealed to him: