Penalties for Sin / Mercy vs. Justice

[iWriteStuff]

I've been engaged in a bit of research this week trying to reconcile whether there are actual specific penalties associated with sin (by the law of justice) or whether the only real penalty is the loss of a blessing. Call it the "mercy vs justice" debate.

In my own life, I have observed that violation of specific commandments results in specific punishments. In the same way, obedience to specific commandments yields specific blessings. In short, there seems to be like a cosmic karma, a balancing of scales. Do good, get good. Do bad, get bad. None of this requires the active intervention of men - God handles the balancing of the scales in His own time and in His own way. Man does not need to exact any kind of revenge or even involve himself in the process, for the most part.

Is this correct? If so, how does this jive with the gospel? Does God mete out punishments for violation of divine law or does He merely withhold blessings?

Thoughts? Sincerely seeking some good guidance here.

Some quotes:

Among the original qualities of our minds we have correct notions of justice implanted in our bosoms originally by God himself: also what we know of mercy originated from God. He implanted the principles of justice and mercy in our hearts, and he implanted the same principles that dwell in his own bosom. What is justice with us, when we are truly enlightened, is justice with God; and what is mercy with us, when we are truly enlightened, is mercy with God: and these great attributes will be magnified in the dealing out of punishments and rewards.
- Orson Pratt, Aug. 28, 1859

and

God is a God of truth and holiness: his justice must take effect; and, notwithstanding the atonement, there is no way for him to exercise his mercy in behalf of the children of men, only through their agency. You can save yourselves through the atonement, or let it alone. Jesus has done his part: he has died for us − has got the plan all laid; his blood has been shed, and he has suffered the pains of all the children of men, and in their behalf, if they will only accept the conditions.
- Orson Pratt, Sept. 11, 1859

and

One of the brethren, yesterday, felt so rejected, under like reflections, that he said he could pray for the devils in hell, if it would do any good. It is not for us to pray for them, because they have become the sons of perdition. You may pray for your persecutors − for those who hate you, and revile you, and speak all manner of evil of you, if they do it ignorantly; but if they do it understandingly, justice must take its course in regard to them; and except they repent, they will become the sons of perdition. This is my testimony.
- Brigham Young, April 6, 1860

and

But the justice and mercy of God must have their demands. Let everything have its place and its just due, both the good and the evil; and we will not curse the wicked, for they are already cursed; the wrath of the Almighty does not slumber upon their track; their condition is lamentable. They flourish like a green bay tree, and may so flourish for a few days; but they will become withered and dried and prepared to be cast into the fire, while the kingdom of God will stand; and if we do not remain faithful, others will take our places.
- Brigham Young, Oct. 7, 1860

[Silver]

This is a tough one. Section 29 immediately springs to mind as a guiding principle.
34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.

So one-for-one blessings/cursings are mainly spiritual, no? Sure, sure, disobey the Word of Wisdom, smoke 3 packs of Camels a day for 40 years and get lung cancer, a very temporal condition. How much more precious though were the spiritual blessings lost (= cursing) over that time of disobedience?

[iWriteStuff]

This is a tough one. Section 29 immediately springs to mind as a guiding principle.
34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.

So one-for-one blessings/cursings are mainly spiritual, no? Sure, sure, disobey the Word of Wisdom, smoke 3 packs of Camels a day for 40 years and get lung cancer, a very temporal condition. How much more precious though were the spiritual blessings lost (= cursing) over that time of disobedience?

Thanks, Silver. WoW does seem to have some "lost blessings" associated with it, as it also has "treasures in heaven" promises to those who obey. Then there's also D&C 130:20-21:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

It seems like there's a one-for-one relationship between blessings and laws. But what about cursings or penalties?

[iWriteStuff]

But could He not give a commandment, without affixing a penalty? He could not: it would be folly, even worse than folly, for God to give a law to an intelligent being, without affixing a penalty to it if it were broken. Why? Because all intelligent beings would discard the very idea of a law being given, which might be broken at pleasure, without the individuals breaking it being punished for their transgression. They would say − "Where is the principle of justice in the giver of the law? It is not there: we do not reverence Him nor His law; justice does not have an existence in His bosom; He does not regard His own laws, for He suffers them to be broken with impunity, and trampled under foot, by those whom He has made; therefore we care not for Him or His laws, nor His pretended justice; we will rebel against it." Where would have been the use of it if there had been no penalty affixed?
- Orson Prayy, July 25, 1852

[iWriteStuff]

here's another one:

I have heard men say that they have a right to do wrong. In one sense, a man has such a right; and in another sense, he has no such right. We possess, in reality, very little; and that little the Lord has given us, and that is the power of choice. We may choose to do good, and, if we do good, we get the reward of good; we may also choose to do evil and reap the penalty. A man may knock another down because he has a right to, and have to pay a fine of fifty dollars because he is obliged to. I deny that a man has a right to make thieves of his children and prostitute his family. If he does this, the Lord is justified in cursing him, and he will be obliged to endure it.
- George Albert Smith, Sept 10, 1861

Follow up question - is it uncharitable to speculate about such things? I don't intend to judge others, but sometimes one wonders whether others are being judged.

Example: I know a fella who lied to the bishop in order to get him to help with a car payment. Later on, the bishop found out he had been deceived. Two days later, the guy's car (which is otherwise new and pristine) broke down in a way that caused him to have to fork over nearly the exact amount he had received from the bishop. Coincidence?

[Silver]

Lehi's great wisdom on the subject:

2 Nephi 2:
10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

[iWriteStuff]

Lehi's great wisdom on the subject:

2 Nephi 2:
10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

Thanks for the insight, Silver. I suppose what I'm looking for involves more of an answer as to how justice operates during life and not just at the end of it at Judgment Day. Is it an active principle in daily life or must all justice wait until the end?

[Warrior Of Jah]

This is dificulta tô undestand But i do not believe that the Gods bleassings is gived literally by your hands But just consequence from our acts

[iWriteStuff]

This is dificulta tô undestand But i do not believe that the Gods bleassings is gived literally by your hands But just consequence from our acts

Is this to say that rewards/punishments act independently of God, but according to eternal law? I could believe that..... I think there can be intervention to help us through consequences, but I am less convinced that we can avoid consequences entirely.

[eddie]

This is dificulta tô undestand But i do not believe that the Gods bleassings is gived literally by your hands But just consequence from our acts

Is this to say that rewards/punishments act independently of God, but according to eternal law? I could believe that..... I think there can be intervention to help us through consequences, but I am less convinced that we can avoid consequences entirely.

Mercy does not rob justice, the Lord is merciful but also just.

[Rose Garden]

This has been a subject that I have thought quite a bit about in my life. I have a theory that I have developed over the years. It seems sometimes we are judged in this realm and sometimes we are not. Some of my understanding comes from some stuff I read by Cleon Skousen years ago. I believe that judgment is withheld unless we turn to Christ and repent. So in other words, judgment day comes after we have died if we make no effort to repent in this life but then we are eternally damned. The law of this world is what governs us in that case and that law is "survival of the fittest."

Ironically, if we do turn to Christ, we invite judgment day into our life here on earth. I believe that if we place ourselves under the tutelage of Christ, he will guide us on a course that will reveal our shortcomings and weaknesses to us and help us overcome them one by one. One of the aspects of overcoming them is suffering the consequences for our sins in this life. This enables us to better understand the effects of our sins.

So, without Christ a man may be able to drunkenly beat his child until the day he dies but then he is damned, because the spirit that inhabits our bodies in this life will inhabit it in the life to come. The time to repent has passed and he no longer has the ability to repent of that sin. He is then required to suffer endlessly on the other side of the veil. On the other hand, if the same man decides to repent in this life, the Lord will begin to intervene in ways that cause him to suffer for his sins in this life. He may find himself wrongfully accused and placed in prison where he finds himself the target of men who beat him mercilessly. Because he caused his child to suffer helplessly, he is in turn required to suffer helplessly at the hands of brutal men. But that suffering will come to an end as he continues to seek Christ. The purpose of it is to facilitate the change of heart. The man needs to understand the other end of the action he took against his child.

I believe we also invite judgment down on us if we are warned by a servant of the Lord and ignore that warning. Or if we oppress one of those who are earnestly following the Lord, we may also suffer judgment for that as well. The Lord protects those who he claims as his like a father protects his family. If you leave him and his family alone, you're left to your own devices. But if you mess with him or his family, he'll mess with you.

The scriptures say that the Lord chastens those he loves. This may explain a bit more why. I think people begin to turn to Christ and then wonder why their life has suddenly taken a turn for the worst. It causes them to question if they are truly on the right path or not. I believe that in the next life, we will realize that those who have suffered through the chastisement of the Lord in this life are spared the eternal punishment others will be subject to after this life. I believe that those who are chastised by the Lord will suffer less than those who don't repent. The Lord will allow them to suffer so they will learn their lesson but he will only allow them to suffer as much as they need to, not even a tiny bit more. On the other hand, those who refuse to repent will have to suffer fully for their sins because they don't have Christ buffering the punishment for them.

[JohnnyL]

here's another one:

I have heard men say that they have a right to do wrong. In one sense, a man has such a right; and in another sense, he has no such right. We possess, in reality, very little; and that little the Lord has given us, and that is the power of choice. We may choose to do good, and, if we do good, we get the reward of good; we may also choose to do evil and reap the penalty. A man may knock another down because he has a right to, and have to pay a fine of fifty dollars because he is obliged to. I deny that a man has a right to make thieves of his children and prostitute his family. If he does this, the Lord is justified in cursing him, and he will be obliged to endure it.
- George Albert Smith, Sept 10, 1861

Follow up question - is it uncharitable to speculate about such things? I don't intend to judge others, but sometimes one wonders whether others are being judged.

Example: I know a fella who lied to the bishop in order to get him to help with a car payment. Later on, the bishop found out he had been deceived. Two days later, the guy's car (which is otherwise new and pristine) broke down in a way that caused him to have to fork over nearly the exact amount he had received from the bishop. Coincidence?

It seems not only does the Lord have a sense of humor, but a sense of reminding us of things we need to repent of.

[JohnnyL]

I've been engaged in a bit of research this week trying to reconcile whether there are actual specific penalties associated with sin (by the law of justice) or whether the only real penalty is the loss of a blessing. Call it the "mercy vs justice" debate.

In my own life, I have observed that violation of specific commandments results in specific punishments. In the same way, obedience to specific commandments yields specific blessings. In short, there seems to be like a cosmic karma, a balancing of scales. Do good, get good. Do bad, get bad. None of this requires the active intervention of men - God handles the balancing of the scales in His own time and in His own way. Man does not need to exact any kind of revenge or even involve himself in the process, for the most part.

Is this correct? If so, how does this jive with the gospel? Does God mete out punishments for violation of divine law or does He merely withhold blessings?

Thoughts? Sincerely seeking some good guidance here.

Yes, I believe actual penalties and blessings.
Remember the old temple endowment?

There are/ will be punishments for violation of divine law. It's often a matter of time.
It's also like in the CHI about church disciplinary councils, and judging sin. No doubt God uses that in His knowledge and wisdom.

The Ammonihahites condemned themselves to temporal destruction.
So in the end did the Jaredites, and the Nephites.
As with all times, when we cut ourselves off from blessings, we bring curses in their place.

Rom. 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Morm. 3:15 Vengeance is mine, and I will repay; and because this people repented not after I had delivered them, behold, they shall be cut off from the face of the earth.
Morm. 8:20 Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay.

And this one, from Malachi:
3 Nephi 24:13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say: What have we spoken against thee?
14 Ye have said: It is vain to serve God, and what doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard; and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

[iWriteStuff]

I've been engaged in a bit of research this week trying to reconcile whether there are actual specific penalties associated with sin (by the law of justice) or whether the only real penalty is the loss of a blessing. Call it the "mercy vs justice" debate.

In my own life, I have observed that violation of specific commandments results in specific punishments. In the same way, obedience to specific commandments yields specific blessings. In short, there seems to be like a cosmic karma, a balancing of scales. Do good, get good. Do bad, get bad. None of this requires the active intervention of men - God handles the balancing of the scales in His own time and in His own way. Man does not need to exact any kind of revenge or even involve himself in the process, for the most part.

Is this correct? If so, how does this jive with the gospel? Does God mete out punishments for violation of divine law or does He merely withhold blessings?

Thoughts? Sincerely seeking some good guidance here.

Yes, I believe actual penalties and blessings.
Remember the old temple endowment?

There are/ will be punishments for violation of divine law. It's often a matter of time.
It's also like in the CHI about church disciplinary councils, and judging sin. No doubt God uses that in His knowledge and wisdom.

The Ammonihahites condemned themselves to temporal destruction.
So in the end did the Jaredites, and the Nephites.
As with all times, when we cut ourselves off from blessings, we bring curses in their place.

Rom. 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Morm. 3:15 Vengeance is mine, and I will repay; and because this people repented not after I had delivered them, behold, they shall be cut off from the face of the earth.
Morm. 8:20 Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay.

And this one, from Malachi:
3 Nephi 24:13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say: What have we spoken against thee?
14 Ye have said: It is vain to serve God, and what doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard; and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

See, these kind of examples are what I'm talking about. All over the Book of Mormon there's a sin, and then there's the consequence. Right from the beginning, Lehi is telling the people of Jerusalem to be good or they would be destroyed. They were wicked, they were destroyed. Warning followed by consequence. There wasn't a "Let's wait until Judgment Day and then we'll talk about that wickedness." It was, "Alright, down goes the temple, down goes the people, and off to Babylonian captivity we go. No cuts, no buts, no coconuts."

All throughout the Book of Mormon we have warnings followed by consequences. The whole book is a giant look at consequences. Immediate, undeniable, and temporal consequences. "...and the judgments of God did stare them in the face" kind of consequences.

Why don't we talk about consequences any more? Why do we whitewash the justice angle when the scriptures are full of it? Is it true doctrine that there are consequences for sin that we are likely to experience in this life as well as after if we don't repent?

[marc]

I've been posting about consequences on here and blogging about them since I joined this forum. One thing I will note is that we get to read about such consequences in the span of generations. The consequences coming soon will be in our generation. Many or most of us will not be around to write about them. Some will. And we'll be in someone else's scriptures chronicling the consequences of the condemnation we are under.

[iWriteStuff]

I've been posting about consequences on here and blogging about them since I joined this forum. One thing I will note is that we get to read about such consequences in the span of generations. The consequences coming soon will be in our generation. Many or most of us will not be around to write about them. Some will. And we'll be in someone else's scriptures chronicling the consequences of the condemnation we are under.

thanks for the insights, marc. Follow up question: does justice come swifter for individuals or cultures? We know the Nephites and Jaredites marched swiftly to their destruction. I think it took a bit longer for Rome to fall - death by a thousand blows kind of thing, then sudden collapse. The Nazis were up then down within a few decades. Muammar Qaddafi didn't end his days peacefully, nor have several other modern dictators. Does justice involve a lengthening out of time, giving an appropriate opportunity (or ten) to repent, or is it more about lines crossed?

As for the US of A, I think God has been very very patient. Or perhaps we are not quite "fully ripened in iniquity" yet.

[JohnnyL]

The BoM is replete with "Repent, or be destroyed." both on a societal and personal level. It seems to have been important for Alma to counsel his first and third son with this.

The BoM reminds us over and over we'll stand before the judgment bar of God and be judged, and to prepare for it.

Love is great and all, but fear of judgment is much better motivator much of the time for the majority of things. Better than that, is the fear of God. It's definitely helped me live a better life.

[Warrior Of Jah]

Is this to say that rewards/punishments act independently of God, but according to eternal law? I could believe that..... I think there can be intervention to help us through consequences, but I am less convinced that we can avoid consequences entirely.

I think yes, everybody must keep the law this includes our God. That God can help us this is truth, but I think God lets the world spin naturally also.