your thoughts on this video?

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Fiannan
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Post by Fiannan »

Man + Woman = One.
Careful, I think that would be considered hate speech in places like Canada.

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Daley
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Post by Daley »

So typical of Satan...

Hey yah! I have an idea! Let's just all go join a religion that is against our personal beliefs and make it our goal to change the belief system
Of that religion...

Makes a whole lot of sense.

You don't like the belief system of a religion then find one you do like...or start a new one yourself! That's been happening since the dawn of the dinosaurs, hence all the variety of religions nowadays.

Satans whole agenda is to force people in the direction he wants everyone to go.

We were all together in heaven during the Great War. We all heard the plan unfolded before us. The ones who chose to go through the veil of forgetfulness, clearly, have forgotten the plan and for this reason Satan and his followers have a huge advantage over us...they didn't obtain bodies, didn't cross the veil, and didn't forget. They know how to manipulate and twist the truth until a lie is believed to be the truth. They know how to play with our mortal sympathies by using women and children as means and many fall for this snare....it takes a strong man of God to rise above the deceit and see the truth and to stand strong above it and not allow wickedness in its hidden form to deceive him and still be able to lead his family around it. You can't be afraid to stand against the cunning of the devil. Guide with love but don't cave to lies because of the disguise so cleverly hiding evil. Don't be afraid to offend the devil...he is not the ally...he is the foe. The Devil's allies are becoming greater and greater....don't be concerned with trivial things but stand for what's right. Don't debate if it's right or wrong to allow a child, who is past the age of accountability, to preach from the pulpit an obvious doctrine of Satan that contributes to the destruction of part of Gods holy order....the proper family unit/government. It is a doctrine of Satan and not of Gods true church....no matter the source it is still not of God

Benjamin_LK
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Post by Benjamin_LK »

This whole deal was a setup for attention on how she spoke the truth to the evil satanic mormons.

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RocknRoll
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Post by RocknRoll »


It's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.
Tell that to Joseph Smith, who obviously believed it was Adam and Eve, and Fanny and Betty and... and...
Judging by your text I highly doubt your LDS or even a true Christian from another sect.
Doubt all you like, but actually I am a returned missionary, married in the temple (33 years now), true believing, temple recommend holding, tithe paying, weekly church attending, scripture studying, member of the LDS church. Who also happens to have a gay son. You, on the other hand, sound like a narrow minded, believe only what I hear in Sunday School, close to becoming FLDS, member. Am I close?

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Thinker
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Post by Thinker »

I appreciate many comments in this thread. There are people who see this manipulative show for what it is, while expressing compassion for this girl who's not only too young to know for sure what she wants, but who seems to have parents who are more interested in their own agenda than they are in parenting well.
RocknRoll wrote: July 13th, 2017, 3:34 pm

It's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.
Tell that to Joseph Smith, who obviously believed it was Adam and Eve, and Fanny and Betty and... and...
Judging by your text I highly doubt your LDS or even a true Christian from another sect.
Doubt all you like, but actually I am a returned missionary, married in the temple (33 years now), true believing, temple recommend holding, tithe paying, weekly church attending, scripture studying, member of the LDS church. Who also happens to have a gay son. You, on the other hand, sound like a narrow minded, believe only what I hear in Sunday School, close to becoming FLDS, member. Am I close?
I empathize with your fear and other emotions due to helping raise a son with homosexual PREFERENCES, but it would do you well to study logical fallacies as well as homosexuality facts.

People want to pretend that homosexuality is "gay happy rainbows" when the facts reveal a much darker picture. The primary way males with homosexual preferences practice homosexuality is via anal sex. Doctors warn of anal sex risks of anal fissures, anal cancer, colon rupture & bacterial infection. And those are for even healthy people engaging in anal sex. According to the US CDC & nation-wide health reports, males with homosexual preferences have much much higher rates of STDs & AIDs/HIV.

So, your illogical argument attempting to discredit the commandment against homosexuality in the bible because of other crazy things in there doesn't hold. The way to figure out if something's true is to research along with intuition (common sense like
"I do have lots of evidence that the anus is anatomically designed as an exit-only").

In this case, the bible is right in warning against homosexuality. Michael Glatz (ex-"gay rights" leader & ex-homosexual) said, "Homosexuality is death and I choose life."

gardener4life
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Post by gardener4life »

h_p wrote: June 15th, 2017, 5:15 pm I totally disagree with her stance on gay marriage, and her parents for what must surely have been encouragement to go up and give this statement. But I think I would have let her finish, for no other reason than an expression of love and understanding for a child who has to grapple with something I will never have to. And besides, this isn't the first time false doctrine has been preached from the pulpit, and certainly won't be the last.

If I were the bishop or in the stake presidency there, I think I would have felt it necessary to say something at the end of testimony meeting, but I would hope she would leave church that day feeling loved because of what I said. After all, even straight TBM people don't like to be told they're wrong.
It is contrary to the plan of salvation for us to just let people lead people astray with false doctrine. :) We shouldn't allow it when possible, guard against it.

gardener4life
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Post by gardener4life »

So a couple of things I noticed in this video.

Turn off the sound and just watch it in text form. A couple of things are easier to see.

Did you notice after she starts talking about being gay the whole audience's shoulders and head just slump like crazy. They are afraid. They are afraid because they know its wrong, even though they have sympathy for her while being patient. I think they also internally are worried about this behavior growing and the possibility of in the future being persecuted too. That's not shaming someone and any psychologist trained in body behavior can tell this wanting to hide behind the pews is victim behavior not aggressive behavior (although the problem is many psychologists will be liberals and get manipulated too.) And they don't shame or persecute her but that is exactly probably what the girl's parents intended to do to them! Read how many times in the scriptures where good people are accused of doing exactly what the evil party was actually doing. The fact that they are video recording this from the beginning is proof that they had bad intentions from the beginning. Who video records church testimonies? Nobody...who encourages their child to have a written statement testimony? Nobody that I know. And who taught her this? She shouldn't even know about such things if she's only 12...she looks younger than 12 though. She very clearly was encouraged at least in how to frame this event, and probably had rewards for doing so.

One of the reasons I encouraged people to turn off the sound to listen to it with text only is for discernment and to use other senses than just sound too. Isn't it easier to sympathize with the voice of a child over a man we don't know? Just listening to it people will always want to sympathize with what appears to be a 'poor child in need' but isn't really. When putting a child against an adult male, or an adult teacher outsiders are naturally manipulated to take the 'protective instinct' into high gear to watch out for the child even when they are guilty. This has happened to a lot of people and it's easy to manipulate this behavior.

Unfortunately there probably will be more of this kind of thing in the future.

The speaker after her I think was inspired. He handled it well. I wanted to say this openly because I'm sure people really tried to villain-ify him.

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AI2.0
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Post by AI2.0 »

I found an interesting article on this at Fairmormon which clarifies some details:
Recently, a video has been on social media about a 12 year old young woman speaking in a testimony meeting about being gay. This is being promoted as a heartfelt moment of tenderness, only to be ruined by the bad stake leader, who happened to be on the stand that day, who asked her to sit down. The mom writes, “…this stake member chose to hurt my child, I don’t know his reasons.”[1]

So, let’s put this in context.

UNDERSTANDING LDS CHURCH MEETINGS
Each Sunday, Mormons meet together. Our most sacred meeting is called “Sacrament Meeting.” According to the Church Handbook of Instructions, 18.2.2, it says:

Each sacrament meeting should be a spiritual experience in which members of the Church renew their covenants by partaking of the sacrament. Other purposes of sacrament meeting are to worship, provide gospel instruction, perform ordinances, conduct ward business, and strengthen faith and testimony.[2]

In instructions given to Church leaders we read:

…bishoprics and branch presidencies need to plan sacrament meetings thoughtfully in order to keep the meetings focused on the Lord and His Atonement, His example, and the doctrines of the gospel.[3]

One Sunday each month, members have a special Sacrament meeting called “Fast and Testimony” meeting. Prior to attending the meeting, members typically go without eating two meals. This fasting is to put themselves into a spiritual frame of mind of worship. Usually, members take the money saved from fasting and put it towards feeding the poor. As part of that meeting, after the sacrament (Communion), “the conducting brother bears a brief testimony. He then invites members to bear brief, heartfelt testimonies of the Savior, His teachings, and the Restoration.”[4]

These testimonies are not speeches or talks. They are not pre-written. They are not a time of advocacy. They are short, extemporaneously expressed, heartfelt feelings about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how we have been strengthened by it. On lds.org it says:

A testimony is a spiritual witness given by the Holy Ghost. The foundation of a testimony is the knowledge that Heavenly Father lives and loves His children; that Jesus Christ lives, that He is the Son of God, and that He carried out the infinite Atonement; that Joseph Smith is the prophet of God who was called to restore the gospel; that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Savior’s true Church on the earth; and that the Church is led by a living prophet today. With this foundation, a testimony grows to include all principles of the gospel. [5]

With this in mind, let’s look at this incident.

The Event

From her mother, we learn that Savannah has been struggling recently. Her Dad and 4 siblings attend church regularly, while her mom stays home with “our oldest”. From context, that appears to be Savannah. Savannah was the one who wanted to do this. She had been pushing her parents on this for several months. Her mother says:

She wanted to be herself in front of them, see if church would be a place to accept her, and to speak up in case there was another LGBT person in the congregation that needed to hear they weren’t alone.

So, Savannah invited several of her friends to come hear her, and they recorded the event.[6] Several in the Ex Mormon community, including the guy who sneaks into Temples to record people, are now pushing hard to get this incident promoted to all of the press outlets and on social media.[7]

As this girl’s parents know, Fast and Testimony meeting isn’t a place for giving speeches, which is what she did. She had her speech all written out and read it from the pulpit. I wish her parents had talked with her more about appropriate forums and venues. This isn’t about whether a girl is struggling with her sexuality, or about how a Church leader handled it. This is a clear case of hijacking a meeting, promoting false teachings, and exploiting a child’s inexperience to create a media event. Savannah was likely allowed to say much more from the pulpit than an adult would have been allowed to say.

Her testimony starts out fine.

Hi, my name is Savannah, and I want to share my testimony with you.
I believe I am the child of Heavenly parents.
I don’t know if they talk to us, but I feel in my heart that they made me and that they love me.
I believe that I was made the way I am, all parts of me, by my Heavenly Parents.
They did not mess up when they gave me brown eyes, or when I was born bald. They did not mess up when they gave me freckles, or when they made me to be gay.

That part is fine. Even mentioning her sexuality, could be seen as appropriate within a testimony given during Fast and Testimony meeting. Next, in an actual testimony, you would expect something about how some life event, has helped her to grow spiritually. But, Savannah doesn’t do that. She goes on advocating for her position by saying:

“No part of me is a mistake.”

“I do not choose to be this way and it is not a fad.”

“I know I am not a horrible sinner for being who I am.”

“I know I can have all of these things as a lesbian and be happy.”

“I believe that if God is there, he knows I am perfect just the way I am and would never ask me to live my life alone or with someone I am not attracted to.”

In the middle of her speech she says, “I believe God would tell me if I was wrong.”

Well, as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we believe he did exactly that. We do not believe she is a “horrible sinner” for being who she is, but you will find our teachings on family and relationships clearly stated in the document titled “The Family, a Proclamation to the World.”[8] This is a fundamental belief of our faith. In essence, she is saying that she doesn’t trust the teachings of Jesus Christ given through our prophets today.

THE EXIT NARRATIVE
While talking about the love of God, which we can all agree with, her speech was calling out the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as false. It follows the pattern of a typical exit narrative which reads, I used to believe the Church is true, but now I find joy and happiness outside of Church teachings. I hope you will give up your false beliefs and follow me. Anyone advocating that from the pulpit should be asked to step down, even if they are twelve years old.

HEAVENLY FATHER’S PLAN
Savannah is correct in stating that we are all unique. We are all born with various talents and gifts. We are all born with passions and desires. We are all born with weaknesses and frailties.

Heavenly Father’s plan is to have us learn to overcome our weaknesses and frailties. It is to control our passions and desires. It is to develop our talents and gifts. He gave us a set of guidelines called commandments that will give us the greatest amount of happiness in mortality and eternal life. The question is if we believe and trust Him.

None of us are perfect just the way we are. That is a child’s point of view. All of us have difficulties. Many of us do have to live our lives alone. It is one of life’s many challenges.

THE FUTURE
I wish Savannah the best no matter what her future choices might be. I hope that her parents, step in to de-escalate this event. Every child needs to be allowed to grow. I think of those young people I know who thought they were gay when they were 12 or 13, and are now in happy heterosexual relationships. I care for one of them very much. I would hate to have had her in the headlines while she was deciding which direction her life might go.

After Savannah spoke, the Church leader conducting stood up and repeated the uplifting and true statements that Savannah made. There was no harsh language. There was no condemnation. There was no negative judgement. There was no lack of support for Savannah as a daughter of God. What occurred was a stake leader protecting the purpose of the Sacrament meeting and refocusing it on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This was simply a case of inappropriate venue and advocacy.
https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2017/06 ... -year-olds

I think most feel that the parents should have known better, they should not have allowed their daughter to abuse the Fast and Testimony meeting in such a manner, but from this, I think it's clear who encouraged her--the mother. The father takes his younger children to church and the mother is not active along with this daughter, in fact, I did read that the mother considers herself ex mormon. I think the mother didn't like the criticism put on the parents as she attempts to put the responsibility on the daughter saying she 'wanted' to do this. I think the mother had no concerns over this turning out to be a negative experience for her daughter, since she had no emotional investment in it going well.

The presiding member of the Stake Pres. had to do something because she was essentially 'preaching' false doctrine which challenged our LDS beliefs when she said;

“I know I can have all of these things as a lesbian and be happy.”

“I believe that if God is there, he knows I am perfect just the way I am and would never ask me to live my life alone or with someone I am not attracted to.”

The truth is, if LDS teachings are correct then LDS teachings are that no, she can't have all those things and be happy and actually, God will ask her to not be sexually active in a lesbian relationship. Since she said these things, it was important for the presiding priesthood authority to counter act them-- he chose to cut off her mike, which was one option.

gardener4life
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Post by gardener4life »

I had another thought recently on this.

I don't think you can be living the law of chastity and be actively lesbian or gay. OK, that's not really saying a lot; when you consider society and gay/lesbian issues we already know that. But it does mean the 12 year isn't keeping the law of chastity.

brianj
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gardener4life wrote: August 12th, 2017, 6:26 pm I had another thought recently on this.

I don't think you can be living the law of chastity and be actively lesbian or gay. OK, that's not really saying a lot; when you consider society and gay/lesbian issues we already know that. But it does mean the 12 year isn't keeping the law of chastity.
I'm curious what you mean by actively lesbian or gay. But I believe it is no easier or more difficult for a homosexual to be chaste than it is for a heterosexual to be chaste.

gardener4life
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Post by gardener4life »

yeah but how many 12 year olds are obsessing about sex and what their partner will be? If she wasn't sexual active wouldn't she have not discovered she was lesbian/gay until like 16 to 18? It used to be that people didn't start thinking about such things at such a young age. And to be fair other people her age are probably thinking that way too but for us of earlier generations I don't think people acted on romance or dating impulses at 12.

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skmo
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Post by skmo »

brianj wrote: August 13th, 2017, 4:46 pm I'm curious what you mean by actively lesbian or gay.
My take on it would be someone who is gay and having sexual relations with someone of the same sex. It is not a sin to have desires. It is a sin to act on those desires if they go against the commandments.
But I believe it is no easier or more difficult for a homosexual to be chaste than it is for a heterosexual to be chaste.
I disagree profoundly.

A single person? You may be partially correct, but a heterosexual person can bridle their passions with the understanding that they can eventually be fulfilled after they are married. That is an ENORMOUS difference. A heterosexual person can get married and have a sexually satisfying life. A thoroughly gay person cannot have that, and can either choose to live a life of celibacy (a terribly difficult path for most people) or give in to temptation and commit sin. There is the chance they can give in and get married and work toward having a change of heart and a change of desire, and I have faith that such a thing can be done, but I'm sure it's a rare thing. It would require a LOT more faith than I've been able to express.

If you are firmly heterosexual, a full, strong zero on the Kinsey Scale try to imagine how you would feel if the commandments were reversed. You could be allowed to be married and sexually active with a person of the same gender, but you would never be allowed to have sex with a person of the opposite gender without it being a sin.

How difficult is that commandment to be chaste in that situation?

I understand the inherent inaccuracies of my theoretical situation, but you have to understand there are always two sides to a story. For someone who cannot understand the desires of homosexuality, it may be difficult to admit that there's even a different side, but it does. We all have our own crosses to bear. I know people who are completely a six on the Kinsey Scale, completely homosexual. One of my friends in Washington talked about how disgusting it is to him to even see a man kiss a woman. He finds it disgusting. I don't pretend to understand his point of view, but I know it exists and I know for him it's real.

I have an LDS friend who is a good solid 5 on the scale, almost exclusively homosexual but a small amount of curiosity for heterosexual relations. He is married to a woman who is probably a 4 or 5. They have children, but they've told me the number of times they've had sex is not much more than the number of children they have. They are committed to living the gospel, they have rock solid testimonies, and they've never had and complete sexual experiences out of marriage. More than I can say for myself, sadly.

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skmo
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gardener4life wrote: August 13th, 2017, 5:31 pmyeah but how many 12 year olds are obsessing about sex and what their partner will be?
Me, for one. I was in second grade, seven years old when I learned about sex from one of my friends in school. Her name was Debbie, and as soon as she explained things I knew I really, really wanted to try it. She explained, but she didn't SHOW or TOUCH anything. There was no contact or any kind of activity. However, I was driven strongly by that desire all through my growing and adolescent years, struggling mightily along the way until my mission. I was fairly free of those desires on my mission, but they picked up before I left the airport with my parents and my former girlfriend. Before mom and dad drove me home we went to the Stake President's house so I could get released to go on a date.
If she wasn't sexual active wouldn't she have not discovered she was lesbian/gay until like 16 to 18? It used to be that people didn't start thinking about such things at such a young age. And to be fair other people her age are probably thinking that way too but for us of earlier generations I don't think people acted on romance or dating impulses at 12.
Ask an elementary school teacher about how many times they have incidents of children touching each other inappropriately out of simple child-like curiosity. Many are innocent and don't develop those feelings until later. Every elementary school I've taught in, though, had at least 2 incidents per year. They don't advertise them, and they do the best they can to keep things like this happening, but they do.

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skmo
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Post by skmo »

Our perverted and horrible society is venerating people who come out with aberrant sexual feelings, desires, and all manner of perversions. Parents I know are pushing their son into trying to convince himself he should want be a girl because they believe it will make him be "special" and "brave" to other people. He was born in 2009. They've been talking about wanting to coerce him to change since 2013 or 2014. Last I had heard, this was 2015, they had appointments for him to see a doctor about starting hormone replacement therapy. I decided my continued association with this couple was not something I could continue.

I've little doubt this was orchestrated by her parents and/or friends to push her into the spotlight and demonstrate their disagreement with the church. Again, I reiterate my confusion about why we haven't seen Visigoths cresting over the mountains to come in and destroy us.

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