your thoughts on this video?

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Michelle
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by Michelle »

I wasn't going to comment, but I feel compelled to mention 2 things.

1. Of course we have compassion for the girl speaking, but what about the other children in the congregation? What about protecting them from her testimony, falsely called? I won't second guess the leadership about timing, I do feel it was appropriate to cut the mic.

2. I had a similar experience in Relief Society the weekend after the Supreme Court declared gay marriage legal. Our teacher abdicated her responsibility and invited a lesbian friend, a former member of the church to speak to us.

It was uncomfortable and I am not one to shrink from speaking the truth so I prayed to know if I should say something. I felt impressed to stay silent. I prayed whether I should leave, I felt impressed to stay put.

Our Relief Society a President was out of town, so a counselor went and got the Bishop. He stood in the doorway the whole meeting and stayed silent.

A few sisters who are stalwart did make loving, but true statements expressing love, but pure doctrine.

A few younger sisters actually asked her advice, I felt bad for them. If these adults were confused by the experience, I again reiterate that it was important for the children in the audience at this sacrament meeting, that the mic be cut.

She expressed her surprise at the end of the meeting at our kindness in listening to her and bring respectful.

During the next week I had many friends come and visit expressing their concerns and confusion about the meeting.

The next week the Bishop started off Relief Society apologizing, explains the proper procedure to invite a guest speaker, and announcing we would be having a special lesson from the Gospel Doctrine Manual on family.

Needless to say, both during the lesson and after I did a lot of praying. A few impressions:

1. During the lesson the phrase came to mind "Church is not a safe place anymore." Now before anyone takes this out of context, I felt it meant these sort of things would keep happening. Those who protest outside of General Conference would grow more bold and begin to agitate within church meetings. I have seen websites where women suggest questions to disrupt church meetings and undermine the doctrine bring taught. This is not an accident, it is intentional.

2. We have discussed clearly with our children that just because you hear something at church does not make it true. We must test all things against the words of the Prophets, scriptures and the Spirit and have our own witness.

3. When such things happen we are to immediately pray and ask what we are to do. Speak or stay silent? Stay or go?

Church was meant, in the scriptures, to be a gathering place for believers and a place to participate in saving ordinances. I am grateful we can still take the sacrament together and bear testimony, even if we have to filter the philosophies of men that are creeping in.

I pray for the return of the Savior and I hope any who feel it is appropriate would do the same.

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h_p
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Post by h_p »

Here's a little more back story on the incident, including an interview with the girl. Apparently, she was the first one up to speak that day, and after her speech, the stake president regulated the rest of the testimony meeting to invite-only. I guess she had invited some friends to come hear her. But it was not well-known that she was gay

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-gay.html

Here's the interview, you'll need to scroll down about a third of the way to get to it:
http://iliketolookforrainbows.com/2017/ ... ranscript/

I have to wonder how much attention she would have gotten if the SP had just quietly let her finish. It's always the suppressions and coverups that get the big ledes.

Serragon
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by Serragon »

h_p wrote: June 19th, 2017, 10:05 am Here's a little more back story on the incident, including an interview with the girl. Apparently, she was the first one up to speak that day, and after her speech, the stake president regulated the rest of the testimony meeting to invite-only. I guess she had invited some friends to come hear her. But it was not well-known that she was gay

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-gay.html

Here's the interview, you'll need to scroll down about a third of the way to get to it:
http://iliketolookforrainbows.com/2017/ ... ranscript/

I have to wonder how much attention she would have gotten if the SP had just quietly let her finish. It's always the suppressions and coverups that get the big ledes.
It appears that this was an attempt to subvert the purpose of the meeting; a coup so to speak; and the Bishopric handled it appropriately. When people are attempting to infiltrate, you must defend.

People have brought up other instances in this thread of an invited speaker to RS or to a person who misunderstands the principle of obedience. I don't see these as being comparable at all.

You would/should treat the invited speaker w/ respect and let the Bishopric handle the councilor who invited the speaker later. You could and should challenge the speaker in a respectful way if it is a discussion format. The man giving the talk on obedience was not willfully trying to deceive. He was just mistaken about a principle. He would probably take private correction from priesthood leaders if provided. This girl and her entourage were not there for that purpose as evidenced by the uploading of the videos to social media.

Older/wiser?
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Post by Older/wiser? »

Maybe I responded to harshly in saying I would get up and leave. I've thought about this I would do so not to be rude or mean to the girl, but as my personal statement, I don't agree with what is being said for me to take my stand .Alma 30:17 the last part states he was teaching whatsoever a man did was no crime. V 18 And thus He did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many,. The next part is interesting as korihor goes to Jershon to also preach. V 20 But behold they were more WISE than the Nephites , they took him and bound him and carried him before Ammon, and he was carried out of the land. What! He wasn't allowed to speak his mind to teach his doctrine, were the people being judgmental, well the Lord says they were more wise. I am not suggesting anything about the girl she was a pawn. I believe we will see more and more of this subtle doctrines infiltrating the church. I seek not to offend but take my stand and if I feel darkness I will try to be more wise. Not in binding someone but taking my personal stand.

JustDan
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by JustDan »

Clearly staged - the video recording before the girl even started her "testimony".

Reading the news reports, the Mother claimed that the girl was so upset of the treatment she received by the Bishopric that both Mother and girl left the meeting, and the girl was in tears.. well.. really? Maybe she afterwards felt the spirit and was utterly ashamed at her actions. Here's hoping so.

I think the Bishopric handled this brilliantly. They gave her opportunity to speak (some suggest they should have intervened immediately) and I think this was the correct action. They gave her freedom of expression, and enabled her plenty (perhaps too much) time to read her prepared speech at length. In doing so, they handled a very awkward situation and were able to assess how the talk was going.

Clearly, the girl showed no sign of stopping (I mean, how long was the talk going to last anyway??) and it was appropriate to put an end to her statement - especially as she proceeded to confirm her intent to completely apostasise into active sin (excommunication level).

So, what did they do wrong? Nothing.

I thought they were entirely respectful throughout, and handled it brilliantly. The immediate statement afterwards was well put too.

Curious to see all the condemnation of the church actions online - "they cut her off", "they shunned her", "they disrespected her"... hold on, when Obama was giving speeches and protesters disrupted his meeting, did he not have them immediately cut down and kicked out?

Finally, what's with the microphone drama? Is it possible for the Bishop to cut off the microphone? in our ward, you would have to switch the button adjacent to the pulpit.

JustDan
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by JustDan »

Just read through that transcript and it's even more shocking. For a 12 year old, she is really bold and determined to be lesbian. She seems to be driven by an alleged homophobia within the church, and clearly she has been led by all the media and LGBT crusade of late.

As it appeared, the whole "testimony" thing was indeed a planned routine to which she invited friends to support her in mocking the church.

Sad times.

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Hogmeister
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Post by Hogmeister »

My thoughts...

"There are two kinds of judging: final judgments, which we are forbidden to make, and intermediate judgments, which we are directed to make, but upon righteous principles."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judg ... g?lang=eng

This is a 12 year old victim of Babylon propaganda. Many members of the Babylon mindset will fly to pieces over this. The separation of Gods Kingdom and Babylon will accelerate. Everything is proceeding according to Gods plan and providence.

14 Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon.

Sunain
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by Sunain »

Testimony meetings are becoming a farce. More and more often people are not bearing their testimony. I hear way too many political opinions, travel logs and what I did this month. The pulpits have always had a mute button for as long as I remember for instances like this.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/first-p ... g?lang=eng

I feel sorry for this girl and her parents who have been deceived by the craftiness of man.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by iWriteStuff »

....but hey, the lesson in Elders quorum was great this Sunday, right? @-) @-) @-)

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h_p
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by h_p »

iWriteStuff wrote: June 19th, 2017, 1:13 pm ....but hey, the lesson in Elders quorum was great this Sunday, right? @-) @-) @-)
You mean the one on sports, or the one on video games? B-)

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RocknRoll
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Post by RocknRoll »

Different wrote: June 17th, 2017, 7:08 pm Homosexuality is an abomination and whoredom before the father.
Says who?

Sunain
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by Sunain »

RocknRoll wrote: June 19th, 2017, 1:35 pm
Different wrote: June 17th, 2017, 7:08 pm Homosexuality is an abomination and whoredom before the father.
Says who?
The Lord.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/18.22
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/20.13
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/1.27
https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true

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RocknRoll
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by RocknRoll »

Sunain wrote: June 19th, 2017, 1:51 pm
RocknRoll wrote: June 19th, 2017, 1:35 pm
Different wrote: June 17th, 2017, 7:08 pm Homosexuality is an abomination and whoredom before the father.
Says who?
The Lord.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/18.22
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/20.13
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/1.27
https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true
So, you believe all the stories in the Old Testament?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/18.22
This chapter also says you shouldn’t “uncover the nakedness” of a woman during her monthly cycle. [v. 19] Do you follow and advocate for this rule?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/20.13
This chapter also says if you curse your father and mother [v. 9], commit adultery [v. 10], or are a wizard [v. 27] you should be put to death. Do you believe we should be following these regulations?

God also commanded Moses to stone a man to death for picking up sticks (Numbers 15: 32-36). Sorry, but the loving God I worship would never say such a thing.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/1.27
So, you’re going with Paul here? The same Paul that says “women should remain silent in the churches”? Or do you just pick and choose which teachings to follow and which to ignore?

https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true
I’ve read the The Proclamation many times. Maybe you could point out where it says homosexuality is an abomination. I can’t seem to see it.

What scripture in the Book of Mormon talks about homosexuality?
What scripture in the D&C talks about homosexuality?
What scripture in the Pearl of Great Price talks about homosexuality?

You're relying fully on the bible for your scriptural support. That same Bible that says it is ok to sell your daughter into slavery. That same Bible that says that eating shellfish is also an abomination. That same Bible that says women shouldn't wear makeup or gold jewelry. That same Bible that says sex outside of marriage is an abomination, but doesn't say anything about homosexuality within the bonds of marriage. Sorry, but the scriptures are not a reliable source to know the will of God on this subject, unless you are also willing to stone anyone wearing clothing made from two different kinds of thread.

I know you'll totally disagree with me on all points, but I just wanted to point out that there is more than one way to look at this for a believing LDS. (which I am).

Gage
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Post by Gage »

Does the young girl even know what it means to be lesbian?

Sunain
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by Sunain »

RocknRoll wrote: June 19th, 2017, 2:40 pmYou're relying fully on the bible for your scriptural support. That same Bible that says it is ok to sell your daughter into slavery. That same Bible that says that eating shellfish is also an abomination. That same Bible that says women shouldn't wear makeup or gold jewelry. That same Bible that says sex outside of marriage is an abomination, but doesn't say anything about homosexuality within the bonds of marriage. Sorry, but the scriptures are not a reliable source to know the will of God on this subject

I know you'll totally disagree with me on all points, but I just wanted to point out that there is more than one way to look at this for a believing LDS. (which I am).
I'm sorry you feel that way but as a member of the Lord's church there is only one way of looking at homosexuality and that is that acting upon those tendencies is a sin. Perhaps talking with others on this forum, the missionaries, your bishop or stake president would be a wise decision to help you sort out your doctrinal issues especially the troubling idea that you don't seem to believe the Bible to be the word of God.
the Church regards “same-sex marriage as a particularly grievous or significant, serious kind of sin that requires Church discipline.”
https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-c ... n?lang=eng

JustDan
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by JustDan »

RocknRoll wrote: June 19th, 2017, 2:40 pm

I know you'll totally disagree with me on all points, but I just wanted to point out that there is more than one way to look at this for a believing LDS. (which I am).
Believing LDS have freedom to believe as they wish.

It is my belief that homosexuality is the greatest attack that Satan is using to destroy the lives of sons and daughters of God and destroy families. Homosexuality is increasing as more and more people actively choose to live that sin.

Yes, many LDS will welcome homosexuality and look to justify it. I will defend my home from this evil.

Michelle
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by Michelle »

RocknRoll wrote: June 19th, 2017, 2:40 pm
Sunain wrote: June 19th, 2017, 1:51 pm
RocknRoll wrote: June 19th, 2017, 1:35 pm
Different wrote: June 17th, 2017, 7:08 pm Homosexuality is an abomination and whoredom before the father.
Says who?
The Lord.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/18.22
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/20.13
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/1.27
https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true
So, you believe all the stories in the Old Testament?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/18.22
This chapter also says you shouldn’t “uncover the nakedness” of a woman during her monthly cycle. [v. 19] Do you follow and advocate for this rule?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/20.13
This chapter also says if you curse your father and mother [v. 9], commit adultery [v. 10], or are a wizard [v. 27] you should be put to death. Do you believe we should be following these regulations?

God also commanded Moses to stone a man to death for picking up sticks (Numbers 15: 32-36). Sorry, but the loving God I worship would never say such a thing.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/1.27
So, you’re going with Paul here? The same Paul that says “women should remain silent in the churches”? Or do you just pick and choose which teachings to follow and which to ignore?

https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true
I’ve read the The Proclamation many times. Maybe you could point out where it says homosexuality is an abomination. I can’t seem to see it.

What scripture in the Book of Mormon talks about homosexuality?
What scripture in the D&C talks about homosexuality?
What scripture in the Pearl of Great Price talks about homosexuality?

You're relying fully on the bible for your scriptural support. That same Bible that says it is ok to sell your daughter into slavery. That same Bible that says that eating shellfish is also an abomination. That same Bible that says women shouldn't wear makeup or gold jewelry. That same Bible that says sex outside of marriage is an abomination, but doesn't say anything about homosexuality within the bonds of marriage. Sorry, but the scriptures are not a reliable source to know the will of God on this subject, unless you are also willing to stone anyone wearing clothing made from two different kinds of thread.

I know you'll totally disagree with me on all points, but I just wanted to point out that there is more than one way to look at this for a believing LDS. (which I am).
PART 1

I'm not sure about the other commenter, but I don't disagree on every point. You might be surprised by some of my reasons, and not by others. I might also add, considering how often I have seen similar lists, I doubt your list came from your own careful study of the Bible. But this may be the first time I address it on a comment board, if not every point, because I am tired of seeing it posted over and over again in various ways.

1. Kind of obvious,so let's get it out of the way: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

2. We believe the law of Moses was a law of carnal command, the higher law given by Christ takes precedence.

3. While we are no longer commanded to live the Law of Moses, and in fact are commanded not to live parts of it, much of the temporal commandments are still good advice. Some things simply need to be see in context.

For example, the idea of not being with a women who is menstruating: many of the carnal commands relate to health, various body fluids are considered unclean. We understand germs, they just had to obey to receive the benefits.

Reserving sexual intercourse until a woman had not bled for a week and had cleaned herself actually would have benefited fertility in ensuring that most couples would be together on the woman's most fertile day. Not foolproof, but an excellent rule of thumb. Since God was building a people, lots of babies mattered.

As for stoning, in a closed society, among a people prone to disobedience wickedness spread like an infectious disease. They could have been destroyed as a people before they even got started. Not my call, but maybe some justification if it was translated correctly.

I love it when people say things like: "you don't abstain from shellfish and pork do you?" Why yes, yes I do. And so do others I know, unless like Paul, an exception is made in sharing the gospel. Very rare.

So why? Not a commandment anymore right? Well, I can't speak for everyone else but to me, pork IS an unclean meat. I grew up around pig farmers, and forgive me for saying so, but pigs are like super sized rats with smaller tails. They eat anything, even you if you fall in the pen. They cannot sweat off toxins. They carry a disgusting amount of parasites. Just not worth it. Shellfish? The great big bugs if the sea? No land bugs, no ocean bugs. Easy to want to do that. Again, probably more temporal reasons than I know, but that is enough.

What about "clean" meats? Since I consider the word of wisdom a higher law, I understand the Law of Moses to say only certain meats, and the WOW no meat, except winter, cold, and famine. And then the clean meats. Higher law adds to lower law. Like lower law=don't commit adultery, higher law=don't lust. Lower law=don't kill, higher law =don't be angry. Each one keeps you an extra step away from sin.

Michelle
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Post by Michelle »

PART 2

Makeup and jewelry. If you read the Bible, the associations with idolatry and prostitution are clear.

If you read the Book of Enoch and the Book of Adam, you would see it was Satan who taught these things, the children of Cain who used them (along with alcohol and inappropriate music). And the Sons of God who watched them from the mountain top for a year before going and joining them.

Do I think members who wear makeup and jewelry are sinning? Probably not, and I'm not going to judge them. How many have studied this? Ignorance in this case does reduce accountability, but since I know better, I must do better.

I could go on, point being. I love the Bible. I treasure its truths. I love the Book of Mormon. I love the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. I love modern day revelation.

Any wresting of the scriptures to try and prove that homosexuality is now, ever was, or ever will be accepted as a viable alternative to the Plan of Salvation is beyond belief.

Just like a egg and sperm are not a person until joined together in conception and made alive by Life given by God. So an individual woman or man can never become a God without coming together as one and being sealed to be a new Life. With the power to give life. In this life or the next, procreation is a necessary part of Godhood. It defines Godhood.

tribrac
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Post by tribrac »

So I can see more of this coming to a ward near you. As long as it is open mic there isn't much to be done to prevent it. Even if they tried to stop it the cultural norm of "it's nice to be nice to the nice" would create too much sympathy or cognitive dissonance for the vast majority.

So a new policy will come soon, Testimony by Bishop invitations only. It should liven up the meetings for a few months and buy us just a few more months of reprieve.

I don't know how I would have responded, but I think I will ponder it a bit for the time it happens.

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h_p
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Post by h_p »

After thinking this through a lot more since my initial reaction, I still think I would have let her finish, both for simple courtesy and suspecting that not cutting her off would have cut the legs out from this becoming an international scandal. But I do feel like this will continue to trend and is really going to split the church in half--I think that's already happening. What will be interesting to see is how the leadership will respond when it becomes illegal to have a dissenting opinion on the matter.

DesertWonderer
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Re: your thoughts on this video?

Post by DesertWonderer »

RocknRoll wrote: June 19th, 2017, 2:40 pm
Sunain wrote: June 19th, 2017, 1:51 pm
RocknRoll wrote: June 19th, 2017, 1:35 pm
Different wrote: June 17th, 2017, 7:08 pm Homosexuality is an abomination and whoredom before the father.
Says who?
The Lord.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/18.22
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/20.13
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/1.27
https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true

So, you believe all the stories in the Old Testament?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/18.22
This chapter also says you shouldn’t “uncover the nakedness” of a woman during her monthly cycle. [v. 19] Do you follow and advocate for this rule?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/20.13
This chapter also says if you curse your father and mother [v. 9], commit adultery [v. 10], or are a wizard [v. 27] you should be put to death. Do you believe we should be following these regulations?

God also commanded Moses to stone a man to death for picking up sticks (Numbers 15: 32-36). Sorry, but the loving God I worship would never say such a thing.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/1.27
So, you’re going with Paul here? The same Paul that says “women should remain silent in the churches”? Or do you just pick and choose which teachings to follow and which to ignore?

https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true
I’ve read the The Proclamation many times. Maybe you could point out where it says homosexuality is an abomination. I can’t seem to see it.

What scripture in the Book of Mormon talks about homosexuality?
What scripture in the D&C talks about homosexuality?
What scripture in the Pearl of Great Price talks about homosexuality?

You're relying fully on the bible for your scriptural support. That same Bible that says it is ok to sell your daughter into slavery. That same Bible that says that eating shellfish is also an abomination. That same Bible that says women shouldn't wear makeup or gold jewelry. That same Bible that says sex outside of marriage is an abomination, but doesn't say anything about homosexuality within the bonds of marriage. Sorry, but the scriptures are not a reliable source to know the will of God on this subject, unless you are also willing to stone anyone wearing clothing made from two different kinds of thread.

I know you'll totally disagree with me on all points, but I just wanted to point out that there is more than one way to look at this for a believing LDS. (which I am).
So I don't put words in your mouth, please clearly state if YOU believe that homosexuality is a grievous sin or not.

Gage
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Post by Gage »

I heard that many members of this ward are upset with how the SP handled the situation and want them released. Probably just the parents but I would not be surprised if this was true. This little homosexuality thingy we got going on is going to cause a lot of persecution, a lot of falling away, a lot of sifting, and in the end a lot of destruction and devastation.

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iWriteStuff
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Post by iWriteStuff »

Finish these sentences, followed by your general location:

a) "In my ward, the members would have __________________"
b) "I live in _________"

here's me -
a) The older half would have been mortified and removed her personally. The millennial half would have welcomed her into the parking lot before chants and protests erupted in support of said lesbian.
b) I live in Colorado.

Gage
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Post by Gage »

a. about half not really listening, probably a few low murmurs from the older folks, the rest probably just blank stares. I know the Bishop would of jumped up and told her to sit down and he would of started us all in a song.
b. I live in the South

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iWriteStuff
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Post by iWriteStuff »

fyi started a poll on this subject.... I really want to know where the members are on this subject. It feels like a sifting.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45777

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