My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to happen?

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Silver Pie
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by Silver Pie »

Ezra wrote: June 15th, 2017, 5:14 pm I will have a front row seat to the eclipse from my front porch overlooking the lake. I'm dead center of the full eclipse path across My part of Oregon. The towns around here have all the rooms booked solid for the eclipse. Some charging 1000$ for rooms.

People keep telling me I should rent some camp spots for the eclipse.
Oh, freakin' cool! I wish I lived close enough to see the full eclipse. I've seen two partial eclipses in my life. Both times, I was living in southeastern AZ. The light dimmed a little, got a weird yellowish cast, then became bright again.

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by bbsion »

captainfearnot wrote: June 16th, 2017, 3:20 pm
Robin Hood wrote: June 16th, 2017, 2:13 pmWith regards to the flat earth issue specifically, the fact that everyone believes the earth is a globe because that is what they havr been told, and never question it even though their daily experience is of a flat stationary plane, is interesting to me. What else do we believe simply because we have been told it from a very young age? There must be lots of things.
We've been down this road before. I (and several others on this thread) are absolutely on board with you as far as this goes. Yes, we should be skeptical of everything we've been taught all our lives. Yes, we should question science and religion and everything else we've been taught. Put it all to the test and find out for ourselves.

It's just that Flat Earth-ism is such a lousy example of this. Like I said above, they posture as if they are questioning from an intellectual and scientific curiosity. "Let's not take our teachers' (and NASA's, etc.) word for it, let's find out for ourselves." Great! It's only when you get into the nitty-gritty with them that you discover that they have no interest in honest intellectual inquiry. It's pure anti-intellectual polemics.

Carl Sagan tells the story of the dragon living in his garage:
"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage."

Suppose I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder.
In this analogy, RH, I would commend you for not dismissing outright the possibility that a dragon might exist, despite the fact that we've been indoctrinated all our lives that they are mythical creatures. We should all be that open-minded, because you never know.

But after witnessing the agile machinations of ad hoc apologia for why there is no actual evidence of said dragon, instead of seeing this for what it is, you come away impressed. Look at this guy, how brave he is to stand up against the anti-dragon establishment. And no one can prove him wrong! That's where you lose me. It's not impressive how easily FE types are able to wave off all the evidence for the Round Earth. It's weak. Anyone could to that about any belief if they aren't committed to scientific integrity.

That last part gets back to the OP's initial point, I think. What's the difference between a dragon with none of the physical properties of a dragon, and no dragon at all? What's the difference between a Flat Earth model that doesn't deliver anything that a working model of the earth's surface ought to deliver, and no model at all? The flat earth model doesn't predict eclipses any better or more accurately than the round earth model, if at all. The flat earth theory can't even chart the earth's surface accurately. That's the biggest advantage the flat earth would provide, two-dimensional maps that are perfectly accurate and precise in all respects, and FE can't even deliver that. What good is it, then?

The FE theory reminds me of the dark sucker theory. Yes, it's possible to re-imagine electromagnetic theory as if darkness, not light, is the energy that fills the universe. Light bulbs do not emit light at at all, rather they absorb darkness. We ought to instead call them dark suckers. It's interesting and amusing to look at things like that from another perspective, but that's about all. No one would seriously entertain this as a viable theory because it falls apart under any real scientific rigor. Just like the Flat Earth.

Personally, I do not believe this story by Carl Sagan is a good analogy in this situation. I am fairly certain he came up with this crap story to try and discredit people who believe in God. God = Dragon. At the end of this nonsense he says "Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion."

If you use his story to prove that flat earthers are delusional... then what is the difference from using it to prove that people who believe in God are delusional?

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captainfearnot
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by captainfearnot »

bbsion wrote: June 19th, 2017, 9:33 am Personally, I do not believe this story by Carl Sagan is a good analogy in this situation. I am fairly certain he came up with this crap story to try and discredit people who believe in God. God = Dragon. At the end of this nonsense he says "Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion."

If you use his story to prove that flat earthers are delusional... then what is the difference from using it to prove that people who believe in God are delusional?
I don't think Sagan would say that people who believe in God are delusional. (Well, maybe he would.) But I think what he's saying here is that people who believe there is scientific evidence for the existence of God are delusional. Or that they don't understand what scientific evidence is. What he's trying to demonstrate is the difference between a theory that can be disproved by evidence and one that is contrived to be impervious to any and all scientific experimentation.

If the Flat Earthers were claiming that the shape of the earth were a matter of faith, that would be a different story. We all believe a lot of things based on faith, without any scientific evidence. But that's not what they're doing. They're claiming that their theory is better supported by the evidence than the Round Earth theory, which is demonstrably incorrect. The only way they are able to do that is by continually redefining their claims to make them unfalsifiable.

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by sandman45 »

gclayjr wrote: June 15th, 2017, 8:34 am Yes, I is true. I was born on Aug 21, 1951.

It is predicted that on August 21, of this year, The universe will celebrate my birthday, with a complete solar eclipse visible across the United states. You flat earthers have a conspiracy theory for every bit of the mountains of proof that the earth is spherical, that you can't see with your own eyes. So I have 3 questions for you

1. ) How can us evil conspiring spherical earthers predict in advance the fact that there is going to be complete eclipse of the sun, and exactly when and were it can be seen?

2.) how come it can only be seen on a special path on 1 side of the earth?

3) How do you guys explain solar eclipses?

Robin Hood: Is it putting your head in the sand if you stay in Britain, and don't come over here on my birthday and see it for yourself, and then maintain the argument that you didn't actually see it yourself?



Regards,

George Clay
try these videos.. much better
if you have more time then check this out too

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by SmallFarm »

Silver Pie wrote: June 18th, 2017, 7:15 pm
gclayjr wrote: June 15th, 2017, 8:34 am Yes, I is true. I was born on Aug 21, 1951.

It is predicted that on August 21, of this year, The universe will celebrate my birthday, with a complete solar eclipse visible across the United states. You flat earthers have a conspiracy theory for every bit of the mountains of proof that the earth is spherical, that you can't see with your own eyes. So I have 3 questions for you

1. ) How can us evil conspiring spherical earthers predict in advance the fact that there is going to be complete eclipse of the sun, and exactly when and were it can be seen?

2.) how come it can only be seen on a special path on 1 side of the earth?

3) How do you guys explain solar eclipses?

Robin Hood: Is it putting your head in the sand if you stay in Britain, and don't come over here on my birthday and see it for yourself, and then maintain the argument that you didn't actually see it yourself?



Regards,

George Clay
Cool birthday present. :ymparty:

I heard someone say that if you put the path of this eclipse and the path of the eclipse coming up in a few years together, they make an X across the United States - rather like God is crossing us out. I intended to go to a site like NASA that has info about the eclipses to see if this is true (about the two paths, together, looking like giant X). I even heard that the center of the X is in Missouri. Anyway, take it for what it's worth, since I haven't verified whether it is accurate or not.
Yeah the center of the 'x' looks like it will be in south-east Missouri


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gclayjr
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by gclayjr »

Sandman45,

Did you actually waste your time watching these videos before asking me to waste my limited time watching them? or did you just link into a couple of videos and didn't even look at them with childlike faith that your flat earth heroes, actually had something to say about this? Can you give me back 20 min of my life that was stolen from me? I watched your first video, thinking that maybe, just maybe, I would see something that actually explained a flat earth model? it was over 18 min long, and not 1 word, not one picture, there was absolutely NOTHING in there explaining a lat earth model of an eclipse! The whole video was a stupid critique of the size of moon's shadow, ending with some standard conspiracy BS. The other video is even longer. I was stupid to believe you when said that these videos was a "Better" flat earth explanations of a solar eclipse.I have no intention of wasting even more of my time watching the second video for nothing!

You know what they say. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I'll leave it your shame, not mine!

Regards,

George Clay

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Robin Hood
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by Robin Hood »

gclayjr wrote: June 15th, 2017, 8:34 am

Robin Hood: Is it putting your head in the sand if you stay in Britain, and don't come over here on my birthday and see it for yourself, and then maintain the argument that you didn't actually see it yourself?
OK George, as you've thrown down the gauntlet, you now have no choice other than to follow through.
You will have to send me the plane ticket so I can visit you, celebrate your birthday, and watch the eclipse.
It's the very least you can do in the circumstances.
I have my passport at the ready.

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gclayjr
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by gclayjr »

Robin Hood,
OK George, as you've thrown down the gauntlet, you now have no choice other than to follow through.
You will have to send me the plane ticket so I can visit you, celebrate your birthday, and watch the eclipse.
It's the very least you can do in the circumstances.
I have my passport at the ready.
Can't afford a ticket, but you can stay at my house. However, we will be driving down to South Carolina on Aug 20. Look forward to your company.

Regards,

George clay

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Silver Pie
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by Silver Pie »

Awesome! Thanks.

I saw a lot of eclipses listed. I didn't realize earth had so many.

Here are two that make an X. I think the line of eclipsed suns that go from top to bottom in the first picture are showing how much of the sun will be eclipsed(?). The actual path of the eclipse is the east-west line.




Total Solar Eclipse 2017 August 21.jpg
Total Solar Eclipse 2017 August 21.jpg (96.83 KiB) Viewed 1698 times
Total Solar Eclipse 2024 April 8.jpg
Total Solar Eclipse 2024 April 8.jpg (41.71 KiB) Viewed 1698 times

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Silver Pie
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by Silver Pie »

So is there ever going to be a full eclipse that crosses Utah or Arizona, I wonder?

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by Silver Pie »

Take that April 8, 2024 eclipse and put it with the eclipse on Oct 14, 2023 and you get a better X. It looks like its center is in Texas.

https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/ ... oogle.html

https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/ ... oogle.html

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by SmallFarm »

Silver Pie wrote: June 22nd, 2017, 5:55 pm Take that April 8, 2024 eclipse and put it with the eclipse on Oct 14, 2023 and you get a better X. It looks like its center is in Texas.

https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/ ... oogle.html

https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/ ... oogle.html
That's only an annular ecplise. They're more common and less dramatic.

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sandman45
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by sandman45 »

gclayjr wrote: June 21st, 2017, 8:09 pm Sandman45,

Did you actually waste your time watching these videos before asking me to waste my limited time watching them? or did you just link into a couple of videos and didn't even look at them with childlike faith that your flat earth heroes, actually had something to say about this? Can you give me back 20 min of my life that was stolen from me? I watched your first video, thinking that maybe, just maybe, I would see something that actually explained a flat earth model? it was over 18 min long, and not 1 word, not one picture, there was absolutely NOTHING in there explaining a lat earth model of an eclipse! The whole video was a stupid critique of the size of moon's shadow, ending with some standard conspiracy BS. The other video is even longer. I was stupid to believe you when said that these videos was a "Better" flat earth explanations of a solar eclipse.I have no intention of wasting even more of my time watching the second video for nothing!

You know what they say. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I'll leave it your shame, not mine!

Regards,

George Clay
your welcome Happy Bday!! you know what they say 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink'

Questioning the shadow the moon gives or where you can see the eclipse should make us question... give how large the moon is supposed to be and the sun etc.

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by gclayjr »

Sandman45,
Questioning the shadow the moon gives or where you can see the eclipse should make us question... give how large the moon is supposed to be and the sun etc.
While one could get into a debate regarding conflicting claims about the physics behind the size of the moon's shadow, the challenge on this thread was for you flat earthers to demonstrate how YOUR theory explains both the prediction, and the solar eclipse itself.

In looking at a previous video, I discovered that your theory not only doesn't explain the prediction or observation of a solar eclipse, but can't even explain the more common observation of the phases of the moon.

This is typical. You guys blow "questionable" smoke on proven physics, and then cannot even explain common observations with your own models and theory. It was deceitful for you to say that this was a "better" video. But then I now get your dishonesty, and will not waste any more of my time viewing "better" videos that explain nothing!

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by Silver Pie »

SmallFarm wrote: June 22nd, 2017, 6:26 pm
Silver Pie wrote: June 22nd, 2017, 5:55 pm Take that April 8, 2024 eclipse and put it with the eclipse on Oct 14, 2023 and you get a better X. It looks like its center is in Texas.

https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/ ... oogle.html

https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/ ... oogle.html
That's only an annular ecplise. They're more common and less dramatic.
I did not realize there was a difference until a few hours ago. So both kinds of eclipses have the moon come directly in front of the sun but with an annular eclipse, the moon is farther away from the earth so it doesn't cover all of the sun? (something about "a ring of fire"). Did I get that right?

(edited it because it didn't make sense)
Last edited by Silver Pie on June 24th, 2017, 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Silver Pie
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by Silver Pie »

George Clay, I am wondering how flat earthers explain away those who worked on the space station in space (and other astronauts that have been out there, orbiting earth). Surely, those people who orbit and who work in space can see that the earth is a globe.

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by brianj »

Silver Pie wrote: June 24th, 2017, 7:31 pm I did not realize there was a difference until a few hours ago. So both kinds of eclipses have the moon come directly in front of the sun but with an annular eclipse, the moon is farther away from the earth so it doesn't cover all of the sun? (something about "a ring of fire"). Did I get that right?

(edited it because it didn't make sense)
This is correct. And be warned: although most of the sun is hidden behind the disk of the moon during an annular eclipse, it is still not safe to look at the sun without proper eye filters.

If you are going to watch either eclipse, either in the path of totality or where you can only see a partial eclipse, you really need to get some eclipse glasses. I recently purchased a 25 pack for $10 from Amajor online retailer.

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by SmallFarm »

Yep and annular eclipses make cool shadows

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Did you realize that August 21, 2017 (the day of the Adam ondi Ahman eclipse) is also President Thomas S. Monson’s 90th birthday? ... http://thejoshuaaaronblog.com/total-sol ... oincidence

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by gclayjr »

Silver Pie,
George Clay, I am wondering how flat earthers explain away those who worked on the space station in space (and other astronauts that have been out there, orbiting earth). Surely, those people who orbit and who work in space can see that the earth is a globe.
Flat earthers, by their very existence, are conspiracy theorists that make those who believe conspiracies such as that Oswald did not shoot Kennedy, the fact that all of the world is being secretly run by a cabal of Jewish bankers, and that the airplane that crashed into the pentagon, was just an optical illusion seem mainstream. Just think of all the people in all of the professions over all of the centuries who would have to have conspired to hide this from us. Not only that, think of how tight that conspiracy would have had to have been that nobody out of all of these groups throughout all of the centuries, ever "break" ranks and spill the beans and actually show us the proof of the flat earth. It actually wouldn't be that hard to prove. Lets see the edge of the earth. Not an imagined view of how it could be there, and how this grand conspiracy could hide it, but the actual edge of the earth.

I think that as Latter-Day-Saints, the nature of our beliefs, provides fodder for the fringe to buy into conspiracies, even more than other groups. We have the Book of Mormon. We are told that the Book of Mormon is a type that warns us of things that might happen to us, just as it did in ancient times here on this continent, unless we are vigilant. It tells us about a secret combination of Gadianton robbers, who were key to the downfall of the great Nephite Nation. We are warned that there will be "Gadianton Robbers" of our time. That is to say, there will be evil men conspiring to destroy our freedom, and take power for themselves, and we should be on the watch for them.

Everything so far is true and important. The problem is that this leads to a thinking that everything is a conspiracy, and every group that is identified as a conspirator, is actually one, and responsible for the mess that we are in. It leads to a blindness to the sickness and evil that comes from embracing everything as a conspiracy. One doesn't have to really do anything other than get up on a soap box, feel smarter than everybody else, and "warn" us against those conspiracies. It also blinds people to the same evil, and self serving motives of groups and individuals promoting "Conspiracies".

I submit that by far the most insane of these is the "conspiracy" to hide the fact that the earth is flat and at the center of the universe. It defies reason in so many ways that it is hard to imagine anybody believing it at all.

Now a problem with this that I have been struggling with over the years, is that the Book of Mormon is right. There are evil men conspiring to bring down our government and society. We may not be little marionettes being manipulated by strings as many conspiracy folks believe, but there are conspiracies, and they can do much to destroy this country. But how can you be credible in such warnings, after warning people about the conspiracy to fool people into believing the world is spherical, and that the plane crashing into the Pentagon was an illusion.

I submit that you don't need to be looking into dark corners to see the conspiracies. I would submit that recent news regarding the "deep state" in our government trying to manipulate the news and public opinion is ample evidence of that. Also, the flip side of that coin is the guy that is currently in their cross-hairs. President Trump. He is the flip side of this same mentality. For so many, he is either the villain who must be defeated, or the hero who will save us.

Too many can't see that in reality he is also a pretty bad guy, maybe with some better ideas than those of the "deep state" that don't want to let go, but still not that good. The real truth is that we didn't have, and don't have any good choices for a white knight to save us, so we would be best to concentrate on gaining personal righteousness, and teaching our neighbors, righteous principles, rather than sitting around looking for bigger and stranger conspiracies under every bed and in every corner.

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by gclayjr »

BeNotDeceived,
Did you realize that August 21, 2017 (the day of the Adam ondi Ahman eclipse) is also President Thomas S. Monson’s 90th birthday?
Gee. I never realized that I shared a birthday with such an A-U-G-U-S-T man.

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by BeNotDeceived »

gclayjr wrote: June 25th, 2017, 12:54 pm BeNotDeceived,
Did you realize that August 21, 2017 (the day of the Adam ondi Ahman eclipse) is also President Thomas S. Monson’s 90th birthday?
Gee. I never realized that I shared a birthday with such an A-U-G-U-S-T man.

Regards,

George Clay
My father was born in August, but I am unfamiliar with the term A-U-G-U-S-T man; please explain?


.

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gclayjr
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by gclayjr »

BeNotDeceived,
au·gust
[ôˈɡəst]
ADJECTIVE

respected and impressive:
"she was in august company"
synonyms: distinguished · respected · eminent · venerable · [more]
Regards,

George Clay

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Silver Pie
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Re: My birthday is Aug 21, Flat Earthers.. How do you explain Spherical earthers ability to Predict what is going to hap

Post by Silver Pie »

brianj wrote: June 25th, 2017, 12:33 am
Silver Pie wrote: June 24th, 2017, 7:31 pm I did not realize there was a difference until a few hours ago. So both kinds of eclipses have the moon come directly in front of the sun but with an annular eclipse, the moon is farther away from the earth so it doesn't cover all of the sun? (something about "a ring of fire"). Did I get that right?

(edited it because it didn't make sense)
This is correct. And be warned: although most of the sun is hidden behind the disk of the moon during an annular eclipse, it is still not safe to look at the sun without proper eye filters.

If you are going to watch either eclipse, either in the path of totality or where you can only see a partial eclipse, you really need to get some eclipse glasses. I recently purchased a 25 pack for $10 from Amajor online retailer.
Wow! That is quite a price! I have some that cost a couple of bucks per pair. I won't be able to see the total eclipse (southern Utah), but I hope to see something.

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