Power in the Priesthood

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mraven
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Power in the Priesthood

Post by mraven »

As I have been studying the priesthood this month, I have pondering a question for which I have yet to come up with an answer. The question is, “why does power in the priesthood matter?” If an unworthy priest blesses the sacrament, I think it is clear that the ordinance is valid for the congregation and that those who partake of the sacrament are still renewing their covenants. We also know there is a clear distinction between authority and power in the priesthood and that power in the priesthood comes through personal righteousness. But why does that power matter if the ordinances we perform are valid whether we have power (through our righteousness) or not? I’m not asking why personal righteousness matters to us as individuals, as the answer to that is obvious. I’m asking what it means to be powerful in the priesthood and why does that matter if the ordinances are valid regardless. Thanks for considering my question.

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Robin Hood
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Post by Robin Hood »

Good question.

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h_p
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Post by h_p »

I think at least part of the answer can be found in D&C 84.

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Jonesy
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Post by Jonesy »

My understanding is that the "outward ordinances" and records must match heaven to bind up and seal the law. The church already possesses the keys to the priesthood and its priesthood is exclusively recognized to perform His ordinances. The work or ordinance is dead without the Spirit, though (and vice versa). I could be wrong, but I don't associate there being any power to administer the outward law. Mostly recognized authority.

I think the power comes in the personal righteousness, like you said. It's kind of like the difference between faith as a principle of action and faith as a principle of power. The power comes in God's very word and obeying it.

Additionally, the conditional promises administered of the priesthood that are recognized by God on our outside vessel, are fulfilled when the conditions of the promise is met and then sealed by the Spirit in our inward vessel. The unconditional promises made and administered by priesthood come when the conditions have already been met.

Not very good at getting my point across, but...maybe it's a start.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Power in the Priesthood

Post by oneClimbs »

I suppose it depends on the individual. The priesthood is not some force of the universe, the priesthood is an order of priests. Alma 13 is worthwhile to study in conjunction with D&C 121. The word "priesthood" appears 7 times in the Book of Mormon and 6 of those 7 times occurs in Alma 13; that should get our attention. The word "power" doesn't appear once in that chapter.

The power comes through faith (Ether 12, Hebrews 11, Lecture 7). Jesus didn't heal anyone "with the priesthood" people came believing and their faith made them whole. The seas obeyed Jesus because of his faith and because the intelligences that they consisted of honored him.

Power in the priesthood results when the oath and covenant of the priesthood are honored by a priest. Blessings come to all of us through the priests who make up the priesthood when we sustain (keep from falling) them and receive them (seek blessings and ordinances at their hands). Sometimes we are Peter and sometimes we are the blind man. The faith we exercise where we stand in proximity to the priests of the priesthood, and the oaths and covenants therein, determines what power will be manifest.

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marc
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Post by marc »

Ponder JST Genesis 14

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Original_Intent
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Post by Original_Intent »

Power in the priesthood is, I think, nothing more nor less than aligning your will with God's.
Power in the priesthood is not about ordinances, which is related to authority.
What ordinance is performed to command a mountain to flee or for the sea to part?
But being able to do those things does require power.
Power that only comes, not to gain glory or fame for ourselves, but quite simply only to command such things because we know it is God's will that it be so. This kind of power is gained line upon line as we prove ourselves worthy of it. and can be lost in an instant of unrighteousness.

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Post by butterfly »

mraven wrote: June 12th, 2017, 8:42 pm But why does that power matter if the ordinances we perform are valid whether we have power (through our righteousness) or not? I’m not asking why personal righteousness matters to us as individuals, as the answer to that is obvious. I’m asking what it means to be powerful in the priesthood and why does that matter if the ordinances are valid regardless.
The ordinances are valid to the church regardless of having actual power in the priesthood or not.

However, the ordinances are not valid to God unless the Spirit confirms it as valid.
You can lie in your baptismal interview and get baptised; the church will say the ordinance has been completed, but will God agree that you've been baptized? Are your sins actually washed away? Not likely, not if you were lying and hadn't had a change of heart. Even if the priesthood holder who baptises you is righteous, the condition of your heart will prevent the ordinance from being accepted by God.

Vice versa- if your heart is right and the person baptizing you does not have priesthood power or authority, then the Spirit can still seal the blessings of baptism upon you, regardless of the worthiness of the officiator.

Our salvation is not in the hands of another man. Ordinances are valid when we personally have them ratified by the Spirit.

eddie
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Post by eddie »

Priesthood power is a gift for the righteous bearer. I'm sure the Lord covers for the people who are blessed by an un-worthy priest holder. In the temple I see patrons who don't even repeat the words, upon asking about it I was told the Lord makes it right.

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marc
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Post by marc »

Re: JST Genesis 14:

If we are receiving "power in the priesthood" in the temple endowment, why are there no men (or women) moving mountains? Turning rivers from their courses? Setting at defiance the armies of nations? Healing the lame? Causing the blind to see? Raising loved ones from the dead? How many "high priests" are ordained in the church? Why do many if not most struggle to even heal a loved one who has developed a flu and simply heal them on the spot? Why do some "bless the doctors" to do a good job when attempting to "bless" the person needing to be healed? Do doctors not treat and heal countless people of all walks of life every day without such "blessings?"

Why did the Lord take the "priesthood" when He took Moses (D&C 84). Did the Lord allow the "fullness" of the priesthood to remain when He took Joseph Smith? If so, what have we being doing for almost 200 years unredeemed and devoid of the miracles, which should be so abundant in the "true church?" These questions are all answered in the scriptures (BoM, Bible, D&C, PoGP).

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Post by drtanner »

5tev3 wrote: June 13th, 2017, 3:17 pm I suppose it depends on the individual. The priesthood is not some force of the universe, the priesthood is an order of priests.
Genesis 14:27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch.

What does it mean to be ordained an high priest after the order of covenant which God made with Enoch? Have we already received this ordination if we are a high priest but have not qualified for these blessings because of unbelief (lack of faith) and worthiness?

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Mark
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Re: Power in the Priesthood

Post by Mark »

marc wrote: June 14th, 2017, 4:45 am Re: JST Genesis 14:

If we are receiving "power in the priesthood" in the temple endowment, why are there no men (or women) moving mountains? Turning rivers from their courses? Setting at defiance the armies of nations? Healing the lame? Causing the blind to see? Raising loved ones from the dead? How many "high priests" are ordained in the church? Why do many if not most struggle to even heal a loved one who has developed a flu and simply heal them on the spot? Why do some "bless the doctors" to do a good job when attempting to "bless" the person needing to be healed? Do doctors not treat and heal countless people of all walks of life every day without such "blessings?"

Why did the Lord take the "priesthood" when He took Moses (D&C 84). Did the Lord allow the "fullness" of the priesthood to remain when He took Joseph Smith? If so, what have we being doing for almost 200 years unredeemed and devoid of the miracles, which should be so abundant in the "true church?" These questions are all answered in the scriptures (BoM, Bible, D&C, PoGP).
Marc I would be careful about passing critical judgements on the general body of Priesthood holders as a whole in regards to the magnifying of their Priesthood and the thought that no miracles exist within the body of that Priesthood and within the church. You have absolutely no way of knowing what happens in the lives of individual Priesthood holders in their family and stewardship responsibilities. None. You are giving blanket judgements here which frankly seems harsh and critical. The tender mercies of the Lord extend to many of Gods obedient Priesthood holders all across the globe. Your Own paradigms may be based on a bias that you have formed to confirm what you believe in regards to scriptural admonition. That paradigm may not be totally accurate in all cases. I dont think it is based on my experience.

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Jonesy
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Post by Jonesy »

Mark wrote: June 14th, 2017, 8:42 am
marc wrote: June 14th, 2017, 4:45 am Re: JST Genesis 14:

If we are receiving "power in the priesthood" in the temple endowment, why are there no men (or women) moving mountains? Turning rivers from their courses? Setting at defiance the armies of nations? Healing the lame? Causing the blind to see? Raising loved ones from the dead? How many "high priests" are ordained in the church? Why do many if not most struggle to even heal a loved one who has developed a flu and simply heal them on the spot? Why do some "bless the doctors" to do a good job when attempting to "bless" the person needing to be healed? Do doctors not treat and heal countless people of all walks of life every day without such "blessings?"

Why did the Lord take the "priesthood" when He took Moses (D&C 84). Did the Lord allow the "fullness" of the priesthood to remain when He took Joseph Smith? If so, what have we being doing for almost 200 years unredeemed and devoid of the miracles, which should be so abundant in the "true church?" These questions are all answered in the scriptures (BoM, Bible, D&C, PoGP).
Marc I would be careful about passing critical judgements on the general body of Priesthood holders as a whole in regards to the magnifying of their Priesthood and the thought that no miracles exist within the body of that Priesthood and within the church. You have absolutely no way of knowing what happens in the lives of individual Priesthood holders in their family and stewardship responsibilities. None. You are giving blanket judgements here which frankly seems harsh and critical. The tender mercies of the Lord extend to many of Gods obedient Priesthood holders all across the globe. Your Own paradigms may be based on a bias that you have formed to confirm what you believe in regards to scriptural admonition. That paradigm may not be totally accurate in all cases. I dont think it is based on my experience.
Just to add, even the greatest prophet "did no miracle", John the Baptist. The greatest thing we can do is love God and our fellow man. I suppose you can say love is the greatest miracle of all. Why elevate the importance of anything else than that?

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oneClimbs
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Re: Power in the Priesthood

Post by oneClimbs »

drtanner wrote: June 14th, 2017, 8:36 am
5tev3 wrote: June 13th, 2017, 3:17 pm I suppose it depends on the individual. The priesthood is not some force of the universe, the priesthood is an order of priests.
Genesis 14:27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch.

What does it mean to be ordained an high priest after the order of covenant which God made with Enoch? Have we already received this ordination if we are a high priest but have not qualified for these blessings because of unbelief (lack of faith) and worthiness?
What blessings are you hoping for? Any lack of blessing or perhaps an expected result could be due to insufficient faith or unworthiness. It could also be an issue of timing, need, or simply our lack of seeing what is actually happening around us.

Ordination means to set something up into a particular order. It is a positioning of things for a purpose. In one instance the Nephite priests were ordained for a reason:

"And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption." (Alma 13:2)

Remember, this is not 2017 LDS priesthood ordination which involves just hands on the head, this was law of Moses ordination. Read about it in the OT. The ordination itself was a sign to the people. This ordination enabled them to become sanctified and to have their garments "washed white" and they were "made pure" and "entered into the rest of the Lord their God." (vs.11-12)

God wanted to ordain priests into his order so that they could become pure and then extend those blessings to others by their example, teachings, and providing of ordinances to them:

"Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord." (vs.16)

The priests and the people entered into God's rest, but not all were priests, they didn't have to be. These were the blessings most sought after, achieved and enjoyed by the people of the Lord.

If anything over and above this is necessary or possible, the Lord will probably ordain one to do such things if he has not already done so. Honestly, I'm not so sure that these former things I have mentioned are even enjoyed by the majority of the people currently.

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brlenox
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Re: Power in the Priesthood

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mraven wrote: June 12th, 2017, 8:42 pm As I have been studying the priesthood this month, I have pondering a question for which I have yet to come up with an answer. The question is, “why does power in the priesthood matter?” If an unworthy priest blesses the sacrament, I think it is clear that the ordinance is valid for the congregation and that those who partake of the sacrament are still renewing their covenants. We also know there is a clear distinction between authority and power in the priesthood and that power in the priesthood comes through personal righteousness. But why does that power matter if the ordinances we perform are valid whether we have power (through our righteousness) or not? I’m not asking why personal righteousness matters to us as individuals, as the answer to that is obvious. I’m asking what it means to be powerful in the priesthood and why does that matter if the ordinances are valid regardless. Thanks for considering my question.
A thought:
I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others. Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity. (The Price of Priesthood Power By President Russell M. Nelson - President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles)

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Re: Power in the Priesthood

Post by Finrock »

brlenox wrote: June 14th, 2017, 9:53 am
mraven wrote: June 12th, 2017, 8:42 pm As I have been studying the priesthood this month, I have pondering a question for which I have yet to come up with an answer. The question is, “why does power in the priesthood matter?” If an unworthy priest blesses the sacrament, I think it is clear that the ordinance is valid for the congregation and that those who partake of the sacrament are still renewing their covenants. We also know there is a clear distinction between authority and power in the priesthood and that power in the priesthood comes through personal righteousness. But why does that power matter if the ordinances we perform are valid whether we have power (through our righteousness) or not? I’m not asking why personal righteousness matters to us as individuals, as the answer to that is obvious. I’m asking what it means to be powerful in the priesthood and why does that matter if the ordinances are valid regardless. Thanks for considering my question.
A thought:
I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others. Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity. (The Price of Priesthood Power By President Russell M. Nelson - President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles)
I really appreciated when Elder Nelson gave this talk in General Conference a few conferences ago and I am grateful to him for giving this talk. While that whole talk has good content and that quote in particular stood out to me, isn't it interesting that Elder Nelson counsels us to diligently seek to be taught by the Lord Himself? I think so. I think it is profound and good counsel.

-Finrock

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Re: Power in the Priesthood

Post by Finrock »

Jonesy1982 wrote: June 14th, 2017, 8:53 am
Mark wrote: June 14th, 2017, 8:42 am
marc wrote: June 14th, 2017, 4:45 am Re: JST Genesis 14:

If we are receiving "power in the priesthood" in the temple endowment, why are there no men (or women) moving mountains? Turning rivers from their courses? Setting at defiance the armies of nations? Healing the lame? Causing the blind to see? Raising loved ones from the dead? How many "high priests" are ordained in the church? Why do many if not most struggle to even heal a loved one who has developed a flu and simply heal them on the spot? Why do some "bless the doctors" to do a good job when attempting to "bless" the person needing to be healed? Do doctors not treat and heal countless people of all walks of life every day without such "blessings?"

Why did the Lord take the "priesthood" when He took Moses (D&C 84). Did the Lord allow the "fullness" of the priesthood to remain when He took Joseph Smith? If so, what have we being doing for almost 200 years unredeemed and devoid of the miracles, which should be so abundant in the "true church?" These questions are all answered in the scriptures (BoM, Bible, D&C, PoGP).
Marc I would be careful about passing critical judgements on the general body of Priesthood holders as a whole in regards to the magnifying of their Priesthood and the thought that no miracles exist within the body of that Priesthood and within the church. You have absolutely no way of knowing what happens in the lives of individual Priesthood holders in their family and stewardship responsibilities. None. You are giving blanket judgements here which frankly seems harsh and critical. The tender mercies of the Lord extend to many of Gods obedient Priesthood holders all across the globe. Your Own paradigms may be based on a bias that you have formed to confirm what you believe in regards to scriptural admonition. That paradigm may not be totally accurate in all cases. I dont think it is based on my experience.
Just to add, even the greatest prophet "did no miracle", John the Baptist. The greatest thing we can do is love God and our fellow man. I suppose you can say love is the greatest miracle of all. Why elevate the importance of anything else than that?
The topic is priesthood power. Because marc addresses the OP doesn't mean he is elevating the importance of one thing above another, it just means he is responding to the topic at hand.

When is the last time you heard of a person moving a mountain? How about turning rivers from their courses? How often do we hear of high priests raising people from the dead? Why do some bless the doctors to do a good job instead of just healing the sickness or whatever ailment on the spot?

If these things were happening in abundance, nobody would feel defensive about it or feel convicted by these questions. I bet if 60+ percent of Mormon men did not currently or at some point in the past have a pornography problem, these questions wouldn't exist. I use this as an example because how can we, as "elders of Israel", expect to exercise priesthood power when we can't even exercise power over our bodies and control our lusts? Or how about home teaching percentages? These statistics aren't the problem, they are symptoms of an underlying problem.

We can keep pretending that we, as a people, are exercising priesthood power just like in ancient times or we can look around and wonder and ask, why or why not?

Each of us ought to do a searching and fearless written moral inventory of ourselves to see who we truly are and not what we might be pretending to be or who we think we are.

-Finrock

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Re: Power in the Priesthood

Post by Juliet »

mraven wrote: June 12th, 2017, 8:42 pm As I have been studying the priesthood this month, I have pondering a question for which I have yet to come up with an answer. The question is, “why does power in the priesthood matter?” If an unworthy priest blesses the sacrament, I think it is clear that the ordinance is valid for the congregation and that those who partake of the sacrament are still renewing their covenants. We also know there is a clear distinction between authority and power in the priesthood and that power in the priesthood comes through personal righteousness. But why does that power matter if the ordinances we perform are valid whether we have power (through our righteousness) or not? I’m not asking why personal righteousness matters to us as individuals, as the answer to that is obvious. I’m asking what it means to be powerful in the priesthood and why does that matter if the ordinances are valid regardless. Thanks for considering my question.
Good question. The way I frame it in my mind, is that church ordinances and priests serve as a template so that we can comprehend the way Jesus' kingdom works. So, the way the church is organized, is so that the regular member can start to understand the framework of how God's Kingdom works. When elements, such as an unworthy priest blesses the sacrament, are not aligned with power in the priesthood, that does not affect the understanding gained by observing how the church works together as a whole. Of course ordinances are validated by personal worthiness, not dependent on the worthiness of other members in the body of the church. But, all the elements are still needed to show how the priesthood operates as a whole. Whether individual elements are worthy or not is between them and the Lord. The organization as a whole is the Lord's church. But, individually we are all still working out our salvation.

drtanner
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Re: Power in the Priesthood

Post by drtanner »

"And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption." (Alma 13:2)

Genesis 14:27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch.

Are these ordinations something different then being ordained a high priest today or are they the same and we are just not qualifying for them because of our lack of faith and worthiness?

Elder Oaks: "The miracle of raising someone from the dead is so exceptional and so sacred that those who have been privileged to see it should never speak of it publicly unless the Spirit specifically induces them to do so. Our published literature contains two such examples I can share. The first is from the Matthew Cowley talk that impressed me so deeply when I was a student at BYU." I quote:

Read the two examples here https://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/06/miracles?lang=eng
Last edited by drtanner on June 14th, 2017, 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jonesy
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Re: Power in the Priesthood

Post by Jonesy »

Finrock wrote: June 14th, 2017, 10:39 am
Jonesy1982 wrote: June 14th, 2017, 8:53 am
Mark wrote: June 14th, 2017, 8:42 am
marc wrote: June 14th, 2017, 4:45 am Re: JST Genesis 14:

If we are receiving "power in the priesthood" in the temple endowment, why are there no men (or women) moving mountains? Turning rivers from their courses? Setting at defiance the armies of nations? Healing the lame? Causing the blind to see? Raising loved ones from the dead? How many "high priests" are ordained in the church? Why do many if not most struggle to even heal a loved one who has developed a flu and simply heal them on the spot? Why do some "bless the doctors" to do a good job when attempting to "bless" the person needing to be healed? Do doctors not treat and heal countless people of all walks of life every day without such "blessings?"

Why did the Lord take the "priesthood" when He took Moses (D&C 84). Did the Lord allow the "fullness" of the priesthood to remain when He took Joseph Smith? If so, what have we being doing for almost 200 years unredeemed and devoid of the miracles, which should be so abundant in the "true church?" These questions are all answered in the scriptures (BoM, Bible, D&C, PoGP).
Marc I would be careful about passing critical judgements on the general body of Priesthood holders as a whole in regards to the magnifying of their Priesthood and the thought that no miracles exist within the body of that Priesthood and within the church. You have absolutely no way of knowing what happens in the lives of individual Priesthood holders in their family and stewardship responsibilities. None. You are giving blanket judgements here which frankly seems harsh and critical. The tender mercies of the Lord extend to many of Gods obedient Priesthood holders all across the globe. Your Own paradigms may be based on a bias that you have formed to confirm what you believe in regards to scriptural admonition. That paradigm may not be totally accurate in all cases. I dont think it is based on my experience.
Just to add, even the greatest prophet "did no miracle", John the Baptist. The greatest thing we can do is love God and our fellow man. I suppose you can say love is the greatest miracle of all. Why elevate the importance of anything else than that?
The topic is priesthood power. Because marc addresses the OP doesn't mean he is elevating the importance of one thing above another, it just means he is responding to the topic at hand.

When is the last time you heard of a person moving a mountain? How about turning rivers from their courses? How often do we hear of high priests raising people from the dead? Why do some bless the doctors to do a good job instead of just healing the sickness or whatever ailment on the spot?

If these things were happening in abundance, nobody would feel defensive about it or feel convicted by these questions. I bet if 60+ percent of Mormon men did not currently or at some point in the past have a pornography problem, these questions wouldn't exist. I use this as an example because how can we, as "elders of Israel", expect to exercise priesthood power when we can't even exercise power over our bodies and control our lusts? Or how about home teaching percentages? These statistics aren't the problem, they are symptoms of an underlying problem.

We can keep pretending that we, as a people, are exercising priesthood power just like in ancient times or we can look around and wonder and ask, why or why not?

Each of us ought to do a searching and fearless written moral inventory of ourselves to see who we truly are and not what we might be pretending to be or who we think we are.

-Finrock
You're right, that last sentence was past what I should have said. Marc, I apologize. There's no doubt we need to be better. I just hope we are focused on the priorities.

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