Good Behavior Trump Debate Thread

[larsenb]

Well, after a long train of scary videos we need to lighten things up a bit.

My wife was driving back from the grocery store today when a car pulled up next to her at the traffic light. She happened to look over and see that there were two young Muslims in the car next to her. The ladies were wearing head scarves and appeared Middle Eastern. Let me remind you that this was a few hours ago and it's still daylight. Let me further remind you that it's currently Ramadan.

My wife smiled when she noticed that the young ladies were eating cheese pizza. You know, during Ramadan.

Of course when I heard the story from her over dinner I smiled because if those young ladies had been caught together in Saudi Arabia driving a car without a male member of their household with them, they would have been dragged from their car by the Mutaween and beaten to within an inch of their lives. This is what happens in a place run by a bunch of inbred tyrants.

Of course, the supporters of Trump need to turn on their amnesia shields when a story like this arises because their guy, Mr. Trump, just agreed to sell the House of Saud a bunch more weapons further implicating himself in murder. Oh yeah, he's a murderer no matter how the other guys like to spin it.

Now that was a friendly gesture your wife made, but they could have construed it as a 'gotcha', and been quite embarrassed and even angry with her. Do you think her seeing this means we should accept more 'refugees' into the country? Other questions arise: if the two women had been in the back seat and the car was driven by a young male, would your wife smile at him for eating pizza?

What's clear with your reportage is how obsessed you are w/your Trump=murderer theme.

You need to watch your assumptions, larsen. My wife and the young ladies never made eye contact. Those young ladies were observed without being aware of it. There was no gotcha. There was no leering. You would have to know my wife, but she's not like that.

I'll tell you though who is like what. Donald Trump, that's who. He's selling weapons to those choir boys in Saudi Arabia who will use them for killing more brown people. I'm so proud to be an American.

Still stuck in your bifurcated view of the Trump matter. At least you're predictable.

We all make innocuous assumptions that are not necessarily warranted. You're making some enormous assumptions regarding Trump. Don't you recognize that? Listen to his wonderful (for the most part) speech to a large, crowded arena in Cedar Rapids, Iowa: https://youtu.be/YJ8klgo4uaM

[eddie]

Then tone it down, stop purposefully working forum members up with your name calling.

[Silver]

Then tone it down, stop purposefully working forum members up with your name calling.

I am calling the modern-day Gadiantons murderers. When that is done in the Book of Mormon, nobody here has a problem with it. That seems strange to me.

[Silver]

Well, after a long train of scary videos we need to lighten things up a bit.

My wife was driving back from the grocery store today when a car pulled up next to her at the traffic light. She happened to look over and see that there were two young Muslims in the car next to her. The ladies were wearing head scarves and appeared Middle Eastern. Let me remind you that this was a few hours ago and it's still daylight. Let me further remind you that it's currently Ramadan.

My wife smiled when she noticed that the young ladies were eating cheese pizza. You know, during Ramadan.

Of course when I heard the story from her over dinner I smiled because if those young ladies had been caught together in Saudi Arabia driving a car without a male member of their household with them, they would have been dragged from their car by the Mutaween and beaten to within an inch of their lives. This is what happens in a place run by a bunch of inbred tyrants.

Of course, the supporters of Trump need to turn on their amnesia shields when a story like this arises because their guy, Mr. Trump, just agreed to sell the House of Saud a bunch more weapons further implicating himself in murder. Oh yeah, he's a murderer no matter how the other guys like to spin it.

Now that was a friendly gesture your wife made, but they could have construed it as a 'gotcha', and been quite embarrassed and even angry with her. Do you think her seeing this means we should accept more 'refugees' into the country? Other questions arise: if the two women had been in the back seat and the car was driven by a young male, would your wife smile at him for eating pizza?

What's clear with your reportage is how obsessed you are w/your Trump=murderer theme.

You need to watch your assumptions, larsen. My wife and the young ladies never made eye contact. Those young ladies were observed without being aware of it. There was no gotcha. There was no leering. You would have to know my wife, but she's not like that.

I'll tell you though who is like what. Donald Trump, that's who. He's selling weapons to those choir boys in Saudi Arabia who will use them for killing more brown people. I'm so proud to be an American.

Still stuck in your bifurcated view of the Trump matter. At least you're predictable.

We all make innocuous assumptions that are not necessarily warranted. You're making some enormous assumptions regarding Trump. Don't you recognize that? Listen to his wonderful (for the most part) speech to a large, crowded arena in Cedar Rapids, Iowa: https://youtu.be/YJ8klgo4uaM

It's not much of a prediction on your part when I announced here that I would not relent until every Trump supporter abandons him. That plan of mine hasn't changed. As I find good material I share it. Read it or don't. Comment or don't.

Did Trump sell weapons to the Saudis or not? Are the tyrants of that country godless killers or not? Would a person of average intelligence know that the weapons would be used to kill more innocent people or not? Oh, yeah, Trump's a murderer alright.

[iWriteStuff]

It's not much of a prediction on your part when I announced here that I would not relent until every Trump supporter abandons him. That plan of mine hasn't changed. As I find good material I share it. Read it or don't. Comment or don't.

I think we've reached the phase where the willfully entrenched are bound to stay there, venturing out only to attack the messenger rather than the message.... Half of them don't even bother to read it before slandering now. It's pretty amazing, really.

Hope everyone has a great weekend! O:-)

[Silver]

Saudi Arabia vs. Qatar. If it's war then Goldman Sachs is happy to finance it. If the tyrants want more weapons, Trump is happy to oblige. If it's sackcloth and ashes America wants, sackcloth and ashes we'll get. I see no way back from the abyss at this point.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-2 ... ar-looming

Saudi Hypocrisy: The Great Gas War Is Looming

by Tyler Durden
Jun 23, 2017 7:45 PM
Authored by Golem XIV

Astonishing hypocrisy! Saudi and its affiliates demand end to support of terrorism while they themselves are some of its largest funders.

Their list of demands, as reported in the Guardian, should be translated as:

1) Curb ties with Iran = No talking to Shia Muslims.

2) Sever all ties to terror organisations = Declare Muslim Brotherhood terrorists who we find threatening internally and only Saudi should decide which terror organisations get funded. Not you

3) Shut down al-Jazeera = We don’t allow press freedom you can’t have it either. Especially one that criticises us. Shut down what is, for all its significant faults, one of the best media outlets in the world.

4) Shut down all other media Qatar funds = Only Saudi propaganda allowed. al-Jazeera was far too willing to report government repression during the Arab Spring. So close down all non Saudi controlled media.

5) Close down Turkish military bases in Qatar = Qatar isn’t allowed its own diplomatic sovereignty.

6) Stop funding anyone Saudi calls a terrorist = Stop funding anyone who opposes Saudi or other undemocratic regimes in the ME. No democratic dissent allowed.

7) Handover terrorist figure = Hand over to us all dissidents we want to imprison or behead.

8) Stop interfering in other countries affairs = Hand over people we don’t like that have taken refuge in Qatar. We do the interfering (see this list of demands) not you.

9 -12) Make yourself a vassal state of Saudi, pay us money, let us control your treasury and foreign policy and agree to all this NOW. Or else, Saudi, its minions, the US and Israel will try to paint you as part of a new axis of evil.
Oh and by the way oil rules! Not the gas you and Iran want to sell!

The Great Gas War is gathering towards a major escalation.

Note the purple line which traces the proposed Qatar-Turkey natural gas pipeline and note that all of the countries highlighted in red are part of a new coalition hastily put together after Turkey finally (in exchange for NATO’s acquiescence on Erdogan’s politically-motivated war with the PKK) agreed to allow the US to fly combat missions against ISIS targets from Incirlik. Now note which country along the purple line is not highlighted in red. That’s because Bashar al-Assad didn’t support the pipeline and now we’re seeing what happens when you’re a Mid-East strongman and you decide not to support something the US and Saudi Arabia want to get done.

The Northern Front in Ukraine has gone quiet. Or at least unreported. But its Southern Front from Syria to Yemen, Turkey to Iran is hotting up.

[eddie]

It's not much of a prediction on your part when I announced here that I would not relent until every Trump supporter abandons him. That plan of mine hasn't changed. As I find good material I share it. Read it or don't. Comment or don't.

I think we've reached the phase where the willfully entrenched are bound to stay there, venturing out only to attack the messenger rather than the message.... Half of them don't even bother to read it before slandering now. It's pretty amazing, really

everyone has a great weekend! O:-)

Wait, I thought you agreed with Silvie? Willfully entrenched is right, I don't understand stubborn people having never been that way myself.

How bout we make a deal IW? I will stop commenting on this thread if you do? And I will happily buy you a cheeseburger Tuesday.

[freedomforall]

It's not much of a prediction on your part when I announced here that I would not relent until every Trump supporter abandons him. That plan of mine hasn't changed. As I find good material I share it. Read it or don't. Comment or don't.

I think we've reached the phase where the willfully entrenched are bound to stay there, venturing out only to attack the messenger rather than the message.... Half of them don't even bother to read it before slandering now. It's pretty amazing, really.

Hope everyone has a great weekend! O:-)

Didn't you just described Silver to the T? Thanks. I think it falls under the heading...egocentrism, or being acutely, self-centered. One who has to have their way at any cost, whether by temper tantrums, compulsion or wearing down defenses of the other party until they give in to incessant prodding.

Did not Silver exclaim "my purpose here." which corroborates the signs of being self-centered?
And he said here: "I announced here that I would not relent until every Trump supporter abandons him." Doesn't this sound a lot like solid proof of his intent and a desire to serve himself, as if the thoughts of others mean absolutely nothing, unless they match his paradigm?
Doesn't "I would not relent UNTIL ....say volumes?

[Silver]

Trump promised to do something to ISIS before the election and his warmonger supporters cheered him on. Here's the rest of the story. Talk about conflicted. Plus $20 trillion in debt. Even if it were a good thing to kill innocent people in Syria (it's not!) while pretending to wipe out ISIS, we can't afford it. But warmongers never think about the cost to future generations, do they?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-2 ... isis-syria

Everything You're Not Being Told About The US War Against ISIS In Syria

by Tyler Durden
Jun 23, 2017 3:30 AM
Authored by Darius Shatahmasebi via TheAntiMedia.org,

It’s time to have a sane discussion regarding what is going on in Syria. Things have escalated exponentially over the past month or so, and they continue to escalate. The U.S. just shot down yet another Iranian-made drone within Syrian territory on Tuesday, even as authorities insist they “do not seek conflict with any party in Syria other than ISIS.”

Col. Ryan Dillon, chief U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad, seemed to indicate that the coalition would avoid escalating the conflict following Russia’s warning that it will now treat American aircraft as potential targets. He stated:

“As a result of recent encounters involving pro-Syrian regime and Russian forces, we have taken prudent measures to reposition aircraft over Syria so as to continue targeting ISIS forces while ensuring the safety of our aircrews given known threats in the battlespace.”
So what is really going on in Syria? Is the U.S. actually seeking an all-out confrontation with Syria, Iran, and Russia?

The first thing to note is that a policy switch under the Trump administration has seen the U.S. rely heavily on Kurdish fighters on the ground as opposed to the radical Gulf-state backed Islamist rebels, which the U.S. and its allies had been using in their proxy war for over half a decade. Even the Obama administration designated the Kurds the most effective fighting force against ISIS and partnered with them from time to time, but Turkey’s decision to directly strike these fighters complicates the matter to this day.

Further muddling the situation is the fact that the U.S. wants the Kurds to claim key Syrian cities after ISIS is defeated, including Raqqa. However, the reason this complicates matters is that, as Joshua Landis, head of the Middle Eastern Studies Center at the University of Oklahoma explains, the Kurds have “no money” nor do they have an air force.

“[T]hey’ll be entirely dependent on the US Air Force from now to eternity, and the United States will be stuck in a quagmire, defending a new Kurdish state that America had partnered with to defeat [ISIL],” Landis said, as reported by Quartz.
So what has the U.S. proposed as a solution to this perpetual dilemma? To put it simply, the U.S. is not only training the so-called Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) to retain the vitally strategic border crossing area of al-Tanf, which, if owned and operated by the Syrian government, could link Iran to Syria, Iraq, and right through to Hezbollah in Lebanon (incidentally, al-Tanf is the latest instance of the U.S. shooting down an Iranian-made drone took place). The U.S. is now also backing these Kurdish fighters to retake an area known as Deir ez-Zor.

The Syrian government retains an isolated outpost at Deir ez-Zor, and the region is almost completely encircled by ISIS fighters. Just last week, a video emerged of convoys of ISIS fighters fleeing the war in Raqqa unscathed. Anti-Media speculated that these fighters were most likely headed towards Deir ez-Zor as they have done in the past, and this area is now widely regarded to be the scene of ISIS’ last stand in Syria.

The U.S. needs a strong ISIS presence in Deir ez-Zor to justify an offensive to retake the city, especially considering the fact that Syrian government troops are already present there. This is why the U.S. delivered airstrikes to stop government forces from repelling ISIS fighters in an air raid in September of last year that reportedly lasted well over an hour and killed over 60 government troops.

Deir ez-Zor is immensely important because it is home to Syria’s largest oil fields. As Quartz explains, according to Landis, America’s strategy is “for the Kurdish forces to take Deir al-Zour, the major regional city and the hub for its oil fields. That way, the Kurds would be able to afford to buy airplanes from the US, rather than require Washington to give them for free.”

As Iranian-backed militiamen — supported by Iranian-made drones — amass upon a U.S. training base in al-Tanf, it is becoming increasingly clear that the Syrian government and its allies will not want to cede strategic territory to the U.S. without a fight. At the very least, Iran intends to encircle al-Tanf and cut the U.S. off from the rest of Syria, rendering the base useless for America’s goals in the country.

However, Deir ez-Zor is where things could potentially get more heated than they already are between the U.S. and the pro-Assad alliance in al-Tanf and Raqqa.

Russia, a staunch ally of Iran and Syria, is already bombing the areas around Deir ez-Zor in full preparation for this battle. According to the Independent, Russia just claimed it killed around 180 ISIS militants and two prominent commanders, Abu Omar al-Belijiki and Abu Yassin al-Masri, very close to ISIS’ stronghold in Deir ez-Zor.

Iran launched a mid-range ballistic missile attack on a position in Deir ez-Zor over the weekend, as well. According to Military Times, Iranian officials said the purpose of the strike was to send a message to the United States and Saudi Arabia and have warned of more strikes to come, with former Guard chief Gen. Mohsen Rezai — an Iranian politician — stating “[t]he bigger slap is yet to come.”

Landis believes these recent escalations only mark a “gnashing of teeth and growling” between the Russians and the Americans and that both powers are merely working out where the new boundaries will fall between American-backed forces and Syrian government forces.

But there is a crucial difference between the Russian-led campaigns and the American-led campaigns within Syria: Russia was invited by the Syrian government and is not clearly not attempting to invade Syria in the traditional sense of the word, as they are relying on local troops to retake the territory that still belongs to the Syrian government. In contrast, the United States has invaded Syrian territory without authorization from Congress or the international community and has partnered with incredibly controversial militias on the ground to claim Syrian territory, further partitioning the country and over-complicating an already convoluted battle arena.

And what will happen if Syria decides that the oil-hub area of Deir ez-Zor is too important to allow the U.S.-backed forces to take it away from them? The fact that Russia and Iran are already bombing this area speaks volumes as to its strategic value, and it seems increasingly unlikely that the pro-Assad alliance will give up the location freely.

Further, having complete control of Deir ez-Zor without opening up the al-Tanf border to Syrian government control would make the liberation of Deir ez-Zor almost meaningless to Syria and its allies, as Deir ez-Zor would be cut off from the rest of Syria. The two offensives go hand in hand, and this is exactly why we see the war escalating rapidly on these two fronts.

Not to mention, Syrian Member of Parliament Ammar al-Asad reportedly just told Russian state-owned Sputnik that the Syrian army will respond to America’s provocative actions by conducting “massive strikes” on positions held by American-backed militants.

* * *

An optimist would view the recent developments in the humanitarian disaster that is the so-called Syrian revolution with the hope that the U.S., Iran, and Russia are merely muscle-flexing inside Syria in an attempt to control as much of the country as realistically possible following the downfall of ISIS – and will eventually settle amicably on a drawing of Syria’s new boundaries.

A pessimist might not be so hopeful, as Iran and China held naval drills in the Strait of Hormuz just days after Secretary of State Rex Tillerson admitted the U.S. is officially targeting Iran for a regime change operation.

[Silver]

Hey, kiddos, I wonder what our Best Friend Forever has been doing lately. Yep, stirring up trouble again, but warmongers love it. They just love it. Gee, dyathink the Trump administration is aware of this?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-giv ... 1497813430

Israel Gives Secret Aid to Syrian Rebels
Fighters near Golan Heights in Syria receive cash and humanitarian help
By Rory Jones in Tel Aviv, Noam Raydan in Beirut and Suha Ma’ayeh in Amman, Jordan
June 18, 2017 3:17 p.m. ET

Israel has been regularly supplying Syrian rebels near its border with cash as well as food, fuel and medical supplies for years, a secret engagement in the enemy country’s civil war aimed at carving out a buffer zone populated by friendly forces.

The Israeli army is in regular communication with rebel groups and its assistance includes undisclosed payments to commanders that help pay salaries of fighters and buy ammunition and weapons, according to interviews with about half a dozen Syrian fighters.

[iWriteStuff]

Didn't you just described Silver to the T?

Sure, or pretty much everyone participating on this thread, including those who fail to completely read posts before trashing them or who respond with incessant YouTube videos, as though they are a sufficient replacement for independent thought.

You don't want to see what's there and Silver refuses to give praise to the man who is bombing Syria and threatening to do the same to N. Korea. I don't see that changing any time soon and obviously Silver is going to keep posting so why don't you try ignoring for a while?

[larsenb]

Didn't you just described Silver to the T?

Sure, or pretty much everyone participating on this thread, including those who fail to completely read posts before trashing them or who respond with incessant YouTube videos, as though they are a sufficient replacement for independent thought.

You don't want to see what's there and Silver refuses to give praise to the man who is bombing Syria and threatening to do the same to N. Korea. I don't see that changing any time soon and obviously Silver is going to keep posting so why don't you try ignoring for a while?

Silver doesn't just refuse to give praise to the man, he labels him a murderer, a liar, an oathbreaker. He has a bifurcated, very black-and-white view of Trump and has had this view of the man probably long before I became aware of his anti-Trump biases over a year ago.

Not a very productive approach at all, in my view; i.e., not likely to gain many converts to his views on Trump. And mainly because he produces no other assessment of him, and makes incredible and largely unsupported assumptions about Trump as well as about those who support him.

Obviously, SIlver gets some ego gain from doing what he is doing. But I would guess that most people who become aware of his particular obsession see his efforts as just that, cultivating what appears to be an intractable obsession.

But you know, anyone who gives away a $17 silver dollar every week, for what is it, 10 weeks, can't be all bad ;-)

[eddie]

Didn't you just described Silver to the T?

Sure, or pretty much everyone participating on this thread, including those who fail to completely read posts before trashing them or who respond with incessant YouTube videos, as though they are a sufficient replacement for independent thought.

You don't want to see what's there and Silver refuses to give praise to the man who is bombing Syria and threatening to do the same to N. Korea. I don't see that changing any time soon and obviously Silver is going to keep posting so why don't you try ignoring for a while?

Opposition in all things. Why tell us Silver isn't going to stop posting but we should? Some of us enjoy the YouTube videos, has nothing to do with replacing independent thought. You are the only person on this forum defending his actions. That should be a red flag.

PS. I don't read most of his posts because it's the same rhetoric over and over.

[iWriteStuff]

Didn't you just described Silver to the T?

Sure, or pretty much everyone participating on this thread, including those who fail to completely read posts before trashing them or who respond with incessant YouTube videos, as though they are a sufficient replacement for independent thought.

You don't want to see what's there and Silver refuses to give praise to the man who is bombing Syria and threatening to do the same to N. Korea. I don't see that changing any time soon and obviously Silver is going to keep posting so why don't you try ignoring for a while?

Silver doesn't just refuse to give praise to the man, he labels him a murderer, a liar, an oathbreaker. He has a bifurcated, very black-and-white view of Trump and has had this view of the man probably long before I became aware of his anti-Trump biases over a year ago.

Not a very productive approach at all, in my view; i.e., not likely to gain many converts to his views on Trump. And mainly because he produces no other assessment of him, and makes incredible and largely unsupported assumptions about Trump as well as about those who support him.

Obviously, SIlver gets some ego gain from doing what he is doing. But I would guess that most people who become aware of his particular obsession see his efforts as just that, cultivating what appears to be an intractable obsession.

But you know, anyone who gives away a $17 silver dollar every week, for what is it, 10 weeks, can't be all bad ;-)

Silver has a principled stance against Trump. Probably always has. Most folks on here disagree with it. I don't. I also don't necessarily call Trump a murderer, but I understand the reason behind it.

Consider the case of King David sending out Uriah the Hittite with the intent of having him die in battle so he could have Bathsheba. David himself didn't kill Uriah. But he was held responsible for it by The Lord because he gave the order. Said the Lord to David, "THOU hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword" (2 Sam. 12:9). It was as though David had slain him personally. In a similar vein, Trump is ordering people to kill and be killed. Regardless of the motive or intent behind it, the responsibility lands on the man who gave the order. You don't think he'll be held accountable for that one day, good or bad? If he leads the United States into unjust wars or acts of aggression, you don't think he bears any responsibility for that?

The answer is of course he does. And just as David was held personally responsible for the shedding of innocent blood, so does every king or ruler who commands soldiers to kill. Did Hitler personally kill any Jews? Probably not. But the blood is on his hands forever. That is the burden of leadership - you hold the final responsibility for all the deaths and murders performed in your name and under your orders.

My only question, which I cannot answer with 100% certainty, is how complicit Trump is. He's either A) participating with full knowledge in these foreign attacks or B) he's delegated so much power and "operational initiative" to the Deep State/Pentagon that he no longer has any idea what's happening until after it's done. If it's A, he's got blood on his hands and God will judge him for it, good or evil (I'm going with evil, since the Constitution doesn't approve of acts of war without a declaration thereof). If B, then he's a puppet and tool of the Deep State and therefore not fit to be commander and chief.

Either way, attacks/bombings/killings during his regime are answerable to Trump. How can you separate the authority of the Presidency from the President himself without admitting he's a tool of the Deep State? He's either complicit in killing or he's a tool. This is the logical conclusion you have to reach, no matter how much you like the man: either he orders the killings and he's answerable for them or he's delegated authority to the Deep State and he's their puppet. Either way, the fruits are the same: war and bloodshed carried on in our name. Silver rejects that paradigm, as do I.

So I guess we'll keep bringing it up and Team Trump will keep defending it. See you guys on Page 100! :ymparty: :ymparty: :ymparty:

Final thought: Candidate Trump was against foreign engagements and called them unconstitutional. President Trump is all in favor of them. Which do you like better, Candidate Trump or President Trump? Because one of them lied to you.

[eddie]

Didn't you just described Silver to the T?

Sure, or pretty much everyone participating on this thread, including those who fail to completely read posts before trashing them or who respond with incessant YouTube videos, as though they are a sufficient replacement for independent thought.

You don't want to see what's there and Silver refuses to give praise to the man who is bombing Syria and threatening to do the same to N. Korea. I don't see that changing any time soon and obviously Silver is going to keep posting so why don't you try ignoring for a while?

Silver doesn't just refuse to give praise to the man, he labels him a murderer, a liar, an oathbreaker. He has a bifurcated, very black-and-white view of Trump and has had this view of the man probably long before I became aware of his anti-Trump biases over a year ago.

Not a very productive approach at all, in my view; i.e., not likely to gain many converts to his views on Trump. And mainly because he produces no other assessment of him, and makes incredible and largely unsupported assumptions about Trump as well as about those who support him.

Obviously, SIlver gets some ego gain from doing what he is doing. But I would guess that most people who become aware of his particular obsession see his efforts as just that, cultivating what appears to be an intractable obsession.

But you know, anyone who gives away a $17 silver dollar every week, for what is it, 10 weeks, can't be all bad ;-)

Silver has a principled stance against Trump. Probably always has. Most folks on here disagree with it. I don't. I also don't necessarily call Trump a murderer, but I understand the reason behind it.

Consider the case of King David sending out Uriah the Hittite with the intent of having him die in battle so he could have Bathsheba. David himself didn't kill Uriah. But he was held responsible for it by The Lord because he gave the order. Said the Lord to David, "THOU hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword" (2 Sam. 12:9). It was as though David had slain him personally. In a similar vein, Trump is ordering people to kill and be killed. Regardless of the motive or intent behind it, the responsibility lands on the man who gave the order. You don't think he'll be held accountable for that one day, good or bad? If he leads the United States into unjust wars or acts of aggression, you don't think he bears any responsibility for that?

The answer is of course he does. And just as David was held personally responsible for the shedding of innocent blood, so does every king or ruler who commands soldiers to kill. Did Hitler personally kill any Jews? Probably not. But the blood is on his hands forever. That is the burden of leadership - you hold the final responsibility for all the deaths and murders performed in your name and under your orders.

My only question, which I cannot answer with 100% certainty, is how complicit Trump is. He's either A) participating with full knowledge in these foreign attacks or B) he's delegated so much power and "operational initiative" to the Deep State/Pentagon that he no longer has any idea what's happening until after it's done. If it's A, he's got blood on his hands and God will judge him for it, good or evil (I'm going with evil, since the Constitution doesn't approve of acts of war without a declaration thereof). If B, then he's a puppet and tool of the Deep State and therefore not fit to be commander and chief.

Either way, attacks/bombings/killings during his regime are answerable to Trump. How can you separate the authority of the Presidency from the President himself without admitting he's a tool of the Deep State? He's either complicit in killing or he's a tool. This is the logical conclusion you have to reach, no matter how much you like the man: either he orders the killings and he's answerable for them or he's delegated authority to the Deep State and he's their puppet. Either way, the fruits are the same: war and bloodshed carried on in our name. Silver rejects that paradigm, as do I.

So I guess we'll keep bringing it up and Team Trump will keep defending it. See you guys on Page 100! :ymparty: :ymparty: :ymparty:

Final thought: Candidate Trump was against foreign engagements and called them unconstitutional. President Trump is all in favor of them. Which do you like better, Candidate Trump or President Trump? Because one of them lied to you.

Let's go for 2,020 posts because that will be the year Trump will be re-elected.

[freedomforall]

Didn't you just described Silver to the T?

Sure, or pretty much everyone participating on this thread, including those who fail to completely read posts before trashing them or who respond with incessant YouTube videos, as though they are a sufficient replacement for independent thought.

You don't want to see what's there and Silver refuses to give praise to the man who is bombing Syria and threatening to do the same to N. Korea. I don't see that changing any time soon and obviously Silver is going to keep posting so why don't you try ignoring for a while?

And why should we read the whole post(s)? The answer stares you right in the face. The true answer is that you, for the most part, agree with him. Two peas, side by side, in the same pod.
Even these two ladies have independent thought.




I would say you two are outnumbered pertaining to this hate Trump crap. And, yes, I see it as a situation of self-centered status. If you want to agree with Silver, fine, but don't put the others here in a mold of your own making. We know how liberals think and talk; a one track mind picking out every bad thing that possibly can be found and then building a case around it, even to the extent of many people out in the streets yelling at the top of their lungs in a stupor, oblivious to what it takes to truly make America what she is and was meant to be. Right has become wrong and good principles have been replaced with discord and hate...and for what? Money from the "haves" taken away and given to the "have nots" Free bread, milk and cheese? Tolerance of evil and upheaval?
Even our Prophets have told us that many of the Saints are helping to promote Unconstitutional programs, the very thing that has turned our great nation upside down.

But a few only worry about Trump, when a real enemy could slip right into your living room and take you out.

I'm not suggesting Trump is perfect or the ideal POTUS, but he is a darn sight better than what the Dems would have done. Come on!, what's the difference? A president deciding to go to war, or a bunch of hoodlums going door to door and having their way with the home owners, even to the point of making you bow to Allah six times a day or get beheaded. This is a no-brainer...except for Trump haters.

I posted videos because some of them have a great message like "Walk a Mile in My Shoes", "Skip a Rope" to name a couple. The song about HC is good also.

So there we have it, folks. Sorry if you are offended by truth.

Someday all Saints will have to come together in thought and action if they expect to reside with Jesus as "one". A house divided is dangerous.

[eddie]

Whew IW, FFA doesn't give spankings, that was a Marine &@$&@"- slap! That's gonna leave a mark!

I concur with all he said. Trump has created hope in America, he is pro veterans, pro stopping illegal immigration, pro bringing jobs back, pro American. He's not perfect, but I don't think we could have done any better. You don't have to read between the lines with him, he is blunt, abrupt, and has a heart of gold. His children
are a testament to him and his vested interest in America.

Time will tell, and I got nothin but time. Our children are too good to live with what Hillary would have created.

Trump landed on his feet running, he's setting it straight.

[freedomforall]

How about this, Trump haters? Court rooms with Judges that will not allow a copy of our Constitution to be in the pocket of anyone therein, or even mentioned, in this particular case, the Bundy Trial.

How about a man that stood up waving a bible and yelling. "treason, treason, treason?

This abuse is all across our nation. We have become slaves to those who take law into their own hands, those wearing robes, guns and badges and defying Constitutional principles and God-given inalienable rights.

There is much, much more to seeing the works of secret combinations than simply looking at Trump.

[iWriteStuff]

I would say you two are outnumbered pertaining to this hate Trump crap. A

Never said I hated Trump. Dare ya to find any such statement. I said I don't trust him and his actions are those of a Gadianton. I've never even attacked the fella, just explained where I think he's wrong. I'd explain more, but you've already told me you don't read anything I write, so what's the point? For every fact I give you (with substantiating evidence and logical explanation), you counter with personal attacks and rants about Muslims coming into my house to kill me. Clearly you're not going to debate the points with me, so I guess this "attack the messenger, not the message" strategy combined with YouTube videos is all you care to contribute to the conversation.

I don't mind being outnumbered. I don't even mind the vitriol you spew. That's between you and your maker. It certainly doesn't help me take you seriously, though. Siamese twins as a defense to Trump unlawfully bombing other countries.... truly original defense, I'll give you that. :ymapplause:

Here's my suggestion - if you don't like the evidence that indicts Trump, then start your own thread with any evidence you can find that supports him. I promise I'll even read it. O:-)

Edit: Here, I even helped give you a start. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45799

I look forward to reading your contributions.

[freedomforall]

I would say you two are outnumbered pertaining to this hate Trump crap. A

Never said I hated Trump. Dare ya to find any such statement. I said I don't trust him and his actions are those of a Gadianton. I've never even attacked the fella, just explained where I think he's wrong. I'd explain more, but you've already told me you don't read anything I write, so what's the point? For every fact I give you (with substantiating evidence and logical explanation), you counter with personal attacks and rants about Muslims coming into my house to kill me. Clearly you're not going to debate the points with me, so I guess this "attack the messenger, not the message" strategy combined with YouTube videos is all you care to contribute to the conversation.

I don't mind being outnumbered. I don't even mind the vitriol you spew. That's between you and your maker. It certainly doesn't help me take you seriously, though. Siamese twins as a defense to Trump unlawfully bombing other countries.... truly original defense, I'll give you that. :ymapplause:

Here's my suggestion - if you don't like the evidence that indicts Trump, then start your own thread with any evidence you can find that supports him. I promise I'll even read it. O:-)

Edit: Here, I even helped give you a start. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45799

I look forward to reading your contributions.

I didn't attend college. I barely graduated from High school. I am not learned to any high degree. So I have no high level of knowledge to throw around like a bright, red flag whipping in wind. So if my posting of things that aid my deficiencies offend or annoy you, too bad.

This passage explains unequivocally how I feel about people that can say a lot, yet have no substantial, viable points worthy of my attention.

2 Nephi 9:28-29,42
28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

Do I need to explain the passage to you?

Now, since I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, ask yourself these two is questions: 1) Is the Savior a liberal or a conservative? I can even supply a hint.

2) Does Jesus teach by compulsory means or by allowing free will and choice?

Therefore, when a person comes here and says in essence: My purpose here is to sway people. I am remaining here until everyone abandons Trump...by what means is he engaged in? Just who is his instructor?

Oh, the Siamese twins thing had nothing to do with Trump. It was to prove that even two heads together can have independent thoughts, so they cannot be construed as being two peas in the same pod. Goes to show you don't read my whole posts, either. You build a fake case over misinformation. Tah, tah.

Silver...IWrite...

[iWriteStuff]

I didn't attend college. I barely graduated from High school. I am not learned to any high degree. So I have no high level of knowledge to throw around like a bright, red flag whipping in wind. So if my posting of things that aid my deficiencies offend or annoy you, too bad.

This passage explains unequivocally how I feel about people that can say a lot, yet have no substantial, viable points worthy of my attention.

2 Nephi 9:28-29,42
28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

Do I need to explain the passage to you? When I graduated from college I realized how little I knew. Hardly a self congratulatory back-patting experience. It was at that moment I decided to learn as much as I could from the best sources possible. This means I rarely watch tv and never watch YouTube videos. If it can't be explained in a book, I don't want it twisted in a video. I never watch the news; I read it only, then I look deeper. I suggest the same for anyone seeking truth. Oh, and ask God, who giveth to all men liberally.... jk I taunt. :))

Now, since I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, ask yourself these two is questions: 1) Is the Savior a liberal or a conservative? I can even supply a hint. “Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive." - Joseph Smith. Oh, and he doesn't advocate for war. He calls for peace. That's not what Trump is doing. To that point, I don't think God binds himself by petty labels. I think He stands for truth. Ergo, I look for truth. Was Trump telling the truth when he said engaging in foreign wars without Congressional approval was unconstitutional? I believe in that case he was spot on.

2) Does Jesus teach by compulsory means or by allowing free will and choice?

Therefore, when a person comes here and says in essence: My purpose here is to sway people. I am remaining here until everyone abandons Trump...by what means is he engaged in? Just who is his instructor? So Silver has an agenda. So what? You do too. Can you converse with him without getting personal or attacking his character? This is your test as much as it is his. How are you doing?

Oh, the Siamese twins thing had nothing to do with Trump. It was to prove that even two heads together can have independent thoughts, so they cannot be construed as being two peas in the same pod. Goes to show you don't read my whole posts, either. You build a fake case over misinformation. Tah, tah. My point was you attacked Silver and I, referring to us as two peas in the same pod, incapable of independent thought, etc instead of defending Trump in a principled manner. This is the "Good Behavior Trump Debate Thread", not the "Bash Silver and IWS Thread", although you're welcome to start one if you feel like it. Rather, I have given you a thread to show your support of Trump in word and deed. You can stay here all you want, sure, but if personal attacks are all you have in you.... #-o

Silver...IWrite...

Again, I invite you to demonstrate how great Trump is in the thread I created for you. The opposition will stay here, I assure you. Well, I will anyway. Aside from setting it up and reading it, I won't pursue point/counterpoint debate with you there unless cordially invited.

FWIW my father went to all of one semester of college and quit. He's the best read, most self sufficient man I know, owner of several businesses. Highly intelligent. I don't look down on anyone who hasn't been to college. :ymhug:

[eddie]

Where is IW and what have you done to him?

The thread posted by you concerning FFA is nothing more than sarcasm! Silver is a plant, and I'm sure you have your own opinions but no need to become vicious like the bad company you seem to admire, you can't get in the pig pen and not get dirty.
It's the ole switch and bait, " Can you even converse with Silver and not attack him?" HE IS THE ATTACKER! Ate up with hate, frothing at the mouth in his attacks on President Trump.

I don't care what his agenda is, he's not coming here behaving like he does and not face opposition to his rants.
And I'm not your friend anymore, I want my class ring back you two timing Casanova!

[iWriteStuff]

Where is IW and what have you done to him?

The thread posted by you concerning FFA is nothing more than sarcasm! Silver is a plant, and I'm sure you have your own opinions but no need to become vicious like the bad company you seem to admire, you can't get in the pig pen and not get dirty.
It's the ole switch and bait, " Can you even converse with Silver and not attack him?" HE IS THE ATTACKER! Ate up with hate, frothing at the mouth in his attacks on President Trump.

I don't care what his agenda is, he's not coming here behaving like he does and not face opposition to his rants.
And I'm not your friend anymore, I want my class ring back you two timing Casanova!

Nothing more than sarcasm? I took the initiative to set up a thread and invited the three biggest Trump defenders to populate it with the opposite of the opinions posted on this thread. I'm reading it, as I said I would, and I have opted out of posting on it, as I said I would, to give you all the best opportunity to state your case. I set up the ground rules to favor you: no personal attacks, focus on the pro-Trump issues, edifying, a promise to thoroughly read and consider your posts, and my word of honor not to interject myself or any contradictory arguments into the fray. What more can you ask for?

Silver focuses on Trump more than he does anything else. It is your fundamental difference of opinion that seems to create the tension. Hence, if you want to stand by your man and show all the ways in which Trump is right for America, you should definitely do so on a thread where your voices are the primary ones. I'm content to let you have your say without even so much as naysaying your opinions over there. I'll read every word, I promise. I'd love to know why you feel so strongly that Trump's actions are good for America.

Most importantly, I think it would do us all some good to take the focus off of Silver. Is it him personally you can't stand or is it his take on Trump? If it's him personally, I can't help you there. But if it's his views you can't stand, please show him wrong. I know his persistence bothers you somewhat, but that's not likely to change. What I WOULD like to change is the tone of the dialogue. Let's stop making it personal and return to the issues. The thread is there, and you are welcome to demonstrate what Trump is doing that makes you proud to have voted for him.

And come on, "eddiefied" was awesome

[freedomforall]

Again, I invite you to demonstrate how great Trump is in the thread I created for you. The opposition will stay here, I assure you. Well, I will anyway. Aside from setting it up and reading it, I won't pursue point/counterpoint debate with you there unless cordially invited.

FWIW my father went to all of one semester of college and quit. He's the best read, most self sufficient man I know, owner of several businesses. Highly intelligent. I don't look down on anyone who hasn't been to college. :ymhug:

Let me explain more clearly how this works. I'm not intimidated by, perhaps, a higher level of intellect or knowledge either of you two may possess. Any attempts to hold it over my head, or others, can be unproductive. I could be in error, but the difference between us is that the way I see it, anyway, is that you two are here to be "right" because of your learning and expanded intellect, whereas, I'm here to be correct, however and by whatever means I need to use to accomplish it. Methods are different, but the results are what matters. Even Moses had Aaron, his brother, as his spokesman due to Moses having a speech impediment, did or didn't you know that?
See: Exodus 4:10-16

You can agree or disagree with Silver on any issue or point as you wish but neither of you will be able to weaken my resolve to not treat Trump as a sub-human. You may want to find the wrong things with Trump and splash it all over the net. That's fine. But as an individual, I don't have to join in with the cesspool, sludge slinging game. And I certainly do not have to justify myself to those engaged with it for my opposition in reciprocation, so there is no reason to keep prodding me.
It is said that If one can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. Sometimes this is true.

Btw, some of the Youtube videos I post do reveal many good things Trump has done and does do. Since you favor skipping them, that's your loss.

Besides, if one wants to learn the word of God, they will read books, scriptures, church videos and articles by those with faith and knowledge. It isn't going to come into one's mind by osmosis, is it?

Also, your idea of how God is liberal is only half correct. He is liberal to the righteous obedient, but conservative to the wicked.

Liberal also means.........tolerant; this, God is not. By not allowing sin into his kingdom in the least degree is not an act of being liberal, it is conservative to the max.

See, even a dull tool can come up with truth.

I suggest looking at your dictionary for the words "liberal" and "conservative".

Another thing: I don't have to go to a different thread or create another thread in order to enter my input. This forum is owned by BrianM and we are his guests, therefore, we can have our say on any thread we choose. This "this is my thread" or "go to another thread I created" holds no water.

IWrite, you're all-right. :ymparty:

[eddie]

Where is IW and what have you done to him?

The thread posted by you concerning FFA is nothing more than sarcasm! Silver is a plant, and I'm sure you have your own opinions but no need to become vicious like the bad company you seem to admire, you can't get in the pig pen and not get dirty.
It's the ole switch and bait, " Can you even converse with Silver and not attack him?" HE IS THE ATTACKER! Ate up with hate, frothing at the mouth in his attacks on President Trump.

I don't care what his agenda is, he's not coming here behaving like he does and not face opposition to his rants.
And I'm not your friend anymore, I want my class ring back you two timing Casanova!

Nothing more than sarcasm? I took the initiative to set up a thread and invited the three biggest Trump defenders to populate it with the opposite of the opinions posted on this thread. I'm reading it, as I said I would, and I have opted out of posting on it, as I said I would, to give you all the best opportunity to state your case. I set up the ground rules to favor you: no personal attacks, focus on the pro-Trump issues, edifying, a promise to thoroughly read and consider your posts, and my word of honor not to interject myself or any contradictory arguments into the fray. What more can you ask for?

Silver focuses on Trump more than he does anything else. It is your fundamental difference of opinion that seems to create the tension. Hence, if you want to stand by your man and show all the ways in which Trump is right for America, you should definitely do so on a thread where your voices are the primary ones. I'm content to let you have your say without even so much as naysaying your opinions over there. I'll read every word, I promise. I'd love to know why you feel so strongly that Trump's actions are good for America.

Most importantly, I think it would do us all some good to take the focus off of Silver. Is it him personally you can't stand or is it his take on Trump? If it's him personally, I can't help you there. But if it's his views you can't stand, please show him wrong. I know his persistence bothers you somewhat, but that's not likely to change. What I WOULD like to change is the tone of the dialogue. Let's stop making it personal and return to the issues. The thread is there, and you are welcome to demonstrate what Trump is doing that makes you proud to have voted for him.

And come on, "eddiefied" was awesome

Eddiefied was awesome, LOL!

The Trump issue is highly emotional, watching the protestors, the way so called Americans are acting is
So ...not right. I it's so unnecessary. Sooo, I think we are all on edge and of course it's a sign of the times.

I was watching an episode of Dr. Phil where a woman took a baseball bat to her husband. He was a complete jerk. Dr. Phil told him, " I've only talked with you for a few minutes, and already I'd like to take a baseball bat to you!" I died laughing! I apologize for acting badly, but I haven't turned over police cars or been in fist fights....YET!