Homosexuality Information

[captainfearnot]

The problem with people who embrace evil, is that on a social level, we do often discover that they aren't such bad guys. It often leads to a belief, similar to what you display with you responses, that hey these guys aren't so bad, what is the problem? and unfortunately for so many others actually deciding that the practice itself isn't so bad, so they begin to indulge themselves step, by step down to hell!

It sounds like you're saying that playing sports with gays is wrong because it is the first step to having gay sex myself. If that's the case I think I'm safe. I work in an office where women walk around with unveiled faces and sometimes even bare their ankles and calves around me, and so far I have managed to avoid initiating an extramarital affair with any of them.

I don't know, to me it feels wrong to malign an entire community of fellow human beings via gossip and hearsay. As Mormons we know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of that. Down here in the Bible Belt kids grow up hearing things in the same spirit as the article above, directed at us. Fear-mongering lies intended to scare them away from associating with Mormons. If they sincerely believe that Mormonism is akin to Satanism (which they do) does that excuse distorting our beliefs and lifestyle to create the most off-putting caricature possible, in order to keep their flocks away from us? That article is basically like Godmakers only directed at gays instead of Mormons.

I know I appreciate it when people get to know us personally and make their own judgments, rather than relying on what their anti-Mormon preachers tell them. If some of them conclude that the rumors were true and we're odious folk, that's fine. Mormonism isn't everyone's cup of Postum. But by and large when people get to know us they realize we're pretty great.

And that's what the anti-Mormon preachers fear most, isn't it? That's why they try and scare their members away with lies about Mormons, because they are afraid that if they get to know us and see that we're actually nice and we love our families as much as they love theirs, that they might go on to embrace our beliefs, which their leaders still sincerely believe will lead them down to hell, even if the other rumors they spread about us are untrue.

Of course we know that the vast majority of people who get to know us don't join our church. And that's fine. We don't need the whole world to be Mormon—at least I don't. I just want to be accepted into the community and not treated as an outcast. If everyone believed the Godmakers I would be lucky to get seated at a restaurant, if not run out of town. But luckily that's not the case, and nowadays Mormons have a reputation for being good citizens with strong families. Good, hell-bound citizens.

I guess that's why I feel like I owe it to other marginalized communities to give them the same fair shake. To make my own judgments based on personal experience rather than polemic screeds like the above. Whether its gays, Muslims, illegal immigrants, what have you.

[captainfearnot]

No one finds it odd and disturbing that an LDS male would join a gay sports league? Please tell me It's a joke and I'm just slow on the uptake?

What's the problem, exactly?

gcalyj answered your question quite nicely but I have one for you: Why did you join a homosexual sports league?

Because I heard and read so much about how much fun it was. Incredibly well organized and run. Player-reffed and managed. Cheaper than most for what you get. Just a top-notch outfit. The gay thing is incidental to the quality of the league, but I think it might be a contributing factor. All the other leagues I play in seem to be full of alpha males trying to display dominance. Lots of bad sportsmanship and arguing calls with the refs. Very little of that in the gay league.

[simpleton]

Vice is a monster of so frightful mien
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.

The above is what is happening in regards to this disgusting topic. We are becoming the very people that we were originally taught to avoid. I think that even reading the "details" as posted above causes or rather gives power to the adversary. I had to stop reading as it was getting obnoxious to my feelings. Never have I read such filthy garbage. I think that indulging in the above reading about (to a great extent) it is like unto "going where angels fear to tread" I would no more want my children to read the above than I would to kill somebody.
This topic is oppressive to my spirit. To be informed to a point I suppose is ok but this is TMI.......

That is my first initial reaction... after a time maybe I'll settle down.
As I view it personally (in regards to all this love the sinner but not the sin talk) I think it is just what the doctor (devil) ordered, " tolerate then embrace" that is what is happening in the church. You can already continue exercising your priesthood if you just "think happy thoughts" but do not act upon them . Thought precedes the action. By giving in a little here, a little there here we are today, what is tomorrow going to be like? Just like this, and for that matter we are practically there.
As Isaiah 3 says:
8For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.

9The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.
Infact the whole chapter talks about how we are.

And like what apostle Paul says also, I agree with him.

Romans 1:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

Notice that His gave them over to a "reprobate" spirit... and also "worthy of death".
If my children started delving into those things that is how I would feel about it. I think God would be doing my children a favor to take them or abruptly stop them doing those sins. Unless there was repentance.
This church policy of coddling the gay community is a disgrace as far as I am concerned. But who am I... nothing, even less than the dust of the earth..

[gclayjr]

CaptainFearnNot,

It sounds like you're saying that playing sports with gays is wrong because it is the first step to having gay sex myself. If that's the case I think I'm safe. I work in an office where women walk around with unveiled faces and sometimes even bare their ankles and calves around me, and so far I have managed to avoid initiating an extramarital affair with any of them.

I don't know, to me it feels wrong to malign an entire community of fellow human beings via gossip and hearsay. As Mormons we know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of that. Down here in the Bible Belt kids grow up hearing things in the same spirit as the article above, directed at us. Fear-mongering lies intended to scare them away from associating with Mormons. If they sincerely believe that Mormonism is akin to Satanism (which they do) does that excuse distorting our beliefs and lifestyle to create the most off-putting caricature possible, in order to keep their flocks away from us? That article is basically like Godmakers only directed at gays instead of Mormons.

Playing Sports with Gays is no more wrong that working with Gays. There is a difference, however, between playing sports with Gays, or working with Gays, and playing sports in a league thats purpose is to celebrate Gayness.

Regards,

George Clay

[captainfearnot]

Playing Sports with Gays is no more wrong that working with Gays. There is a difference, however, between playing sports with Gays, or working with Gays, and playing sports in a league thats purpose is to celebrate Gayness.

Because a league which celebrates gayness is trying to get me to have gay sex? If that's the criteria, I can assure you that my participation in the gay league feels a lot more like playing sports with gays than celebrating gayness.

When I play in the church leagues I'm fully aware that I'm being actively recruited by these churches. There are prayers and devotionals at each game, and invitations to worship services are constantly extended. People are always asking me what church I go to (sometimes cringing at my response) and asking if I wouldn't like to give theirs a try. I recognize that sports are part of the outreach program for these churches and I'm fine with it, it's all part of the price of admission. But I suppose I'm willingly submitting myself to their active recruitment efforts, which in theory could succeed and persuade me away from the true church. Maybe that's a sin? I don't feel like it is because these churches are not at all appealing to me, religion-wise. I know what it feels like to court temptation and it's just not happening here. (Although they do give me something to think about, because their programs and facilities are so much better than ours...)

So even if the gay league were trying as hard to recruit me into their community as the church leagues, I still don't know that I would feel like I was sinning by associating with them, as I feel zero temptation to take up their lifestyle. But the thing is, they're not. There is no promotion of gayness going on whatsoever, outside of the league asserting its right to exist by existing. We don't pledge allegiance to the gay agenda before every game, they don't hand out invitations to the next gay pride parade, there is no politicking or evangelizing at all. Nobody even asks me if I'm gay or straight, or seems to care. People are just there to play and socialize.

If societal acceptance of gays is a problem, then I'm guilty of that, because by showing up and playing I'm signaling my acceptance of these people as members of my community. But I don't think that's a problem, and as others in this thread have lamented, the church seems to agree with me.

[SmallFarm]

From my association with homosexuals I would say that I'm confident that several of the things in this article are true and there is nothing that I'm certain is not true. A lot of it I don't know either way, though.

After considerable thought, even before I read this, I've come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a lifestyle that promotes happiness. I don't believe that the majority of homosexual people would be satisfied even if everyone totally accepted them and allowed them to do whatever they feel is right. Contrary to popular belief, happiness is not a choice, it's a consequence (as are all emotions). You can't whip your child and be happy. It also seems (from what I've seen) that you can't live a homosexual lifestyle and be happy.

There is actually one point that I would disagree on in the article. I do believe that some people can be "born with it" and that those urges can be outside of conscious control. I believe homosexuality is the result of spiritual forces that aren't controlled simply by your thoughts. I believe it takes healing through the atonement to overcome homosexuality.

I do believe homosexual people should be accepted and loved. If they are unwilling to work to overcome the issue then I don't think we should be bothering them about it. However, I think setting personal boundaries is totally acceptable and I believe it's also a parent's responsibility to teach their children the truth, before they need to deal with those sorts of questions in their own life. I think that should be more where our focus is rather than on seeking to change homosexuals. I believe that would be the best way to address the homosexual issue.

I've been hesitant to to chime in but I just wanted to echo everything that Meili is saying here (especially that last paragraph) and add my testimony as someone who lived a homosexual lifestyle for several years and am still acquainted with people from that past; that much in the article is true.
The only answer is to love 'em as best you can without condoning the act. It's a delicate tightrope but one that my parents walk diligently and I feel truly blessed for being their son.

[Gage]

I dont understand why a straight man would participate in a gay league. Maybe its just different were I live. If I participated in a gay league it would be all over town that I was bisexual and cheating on my wife with men. It would also be wrongly assumed that I supported the lifestyle.

[Rose Garden]

I dont understand why a straight man would participate in a gay league. Maybe its just different were I live. If I participated in a gay league it would be all over town that I was bisexual and cheating on my wife with men. It would also be wrongly assumed that I supported the lifestyle.

I think that this mentality is why there is such a big problem with homosexual culture currently. Ideally, we would feel confident in our own ability to maintain healthy boundaries that we wouldn't worry about the people we are associating with. We would know that we could stay safe from any negative effect our association might have on us, even a bad reputation. If we were able to do that, we would be able to treat others with love while maintaining healthy boundaries. As it is, we shun people and do other things that make them feel unloved and it causes a lot more problems than we had in the first place.

[DesertWonderer]

Playing Sports with Gays is no more wrong that working with Gays. There is a difference, however, between playing sports with Gays, or working with Gays, and playing sports in a league thats purpose is to celebrate Gayness.

Because a league which celebrates gayness is trying to get me to have gay sex? If that's the criteria, I can assure you that my participation in the gay league feels a lot more like playing sports with gays than celebrating gayness.

When I play in the church leagues I'm fully aware that I'm being actively recruited by these churches. There are prayers and devotionals at each game, and invitations to worship services are constantly extended. People are always asking me what church I go to (sometimes cringing at my response) and asking if I wouldn't like to give theirs a try. I recognize that sports are part of the outreach program for these churches and I'm fine with it, it's all part of the price of admission. But I suppose I'm willingly submitting myself to their active recruitment efforts, which in theory could succeed and persuade me away from the true church. Maybe that's a sin? I don't feel like it is because these churches are not at all appealing to me, religion-wise. I know what it feels like to court temptation and it's just not happening here. (Although they do give me something to think about, because their programs and facilities are so much better than ours...)

So even if the gay league were trying as hard to recruit me into their community as the church leagues, I still don't know that I would feel like I was sinning by associating with them, as I feel zero temptation to take up their lifestyle. But the thing is, they're not. There is no promotion of gayness going on whatsoever, outside of the league asserting its right to exist by existing. We don't pledge allegiance to the gay agenda before every game, they don't hand out invitations to the next gay pride parade, there is no politicking or evangelizing at all. Nobody even asks me if I'm gay or straight, or seems to care. People are just there to play and socialize.

If societal acceptance of gays is a problem, then I'm guilty of that, because by showing up and playing I'm signaling my acceptance of these people as members of my community. But I don't think that's a problem, and as others in this thread have lamented, the church seems to agree with me.

So you play in both a gay sports league and other churches' sports leagues? You have that much time on your hands?

Doesn't that interfere with work, family responsibilities, calling(s), scripture study, volunteering at other worthwhile organizations, serving in the temple, attending church activities, coaching kids' sports?

[gclayjr]

CaptainFearNot,

If societal acceptance of gays is a problem, then I'm guilty of that, because by showing up and playing I'm signaling my acceptance of these people as members of my community. But I don't think that's a problem, and as others in this thread have lamente

I find it interesting that both Gays, and those who promote Gays always talk out of both sides of their mouth, trying to fool us, but in reality fooling themselves. On one hand they screech at anybody who doesn't approve of their lifestyle, and say that that lifestyle is a private matter that is nobody's business. They say that one should love gay people and that any hint of disapproving of the lifestyle is bigoted hatred.

On the other side, they can't just shut up and keep it to themselves. I don't join a bi-handed sports league, for those who play sports right handed, but write and eat left handed. I don't keep my ambiguous handedness a secret, but on the other hand it doesn't define me. If they are just like us except for their sexuality, then Just shut up and keep it to themselves. If it is necessary to explain why the wife they are bringing to the sports game is of the same gender OK, and we should be polite, and not hateful. But there is both a difference between accepting and loving someone no matter what their sexual orientation, and celebrating that orientation... and also expecting people to be polite and not discriminate against homosexuality, and putting it out there and demanding that everybody embrace that life style.

CaptainFearNot. I cannot see into your heart. I can only read what you post, but it certainly looks like you might have some of the same problems Lot did back there in Sodom all those years ago!

Regards,

George Clay

[captainfearnot]

So you play in both a gay sports league and other churches' sports leagues? You have that much time on your hands?

Doesn't that interfere with work, family responsibilities, calling(s), scripture study, volunteering at other worthwhile organizations, serving in the temple, attending church activities, coaching kids' sports?

8-|

Did I just step into a Relief Society lesson without realizing it?

On the other side, they can't just shut up and keep it to themselves. I don't join a bi-handed sports league, for those who play sports right handed, but write and eat left handed. I don't keep my ambiguous handedness a secret, but on the other hand it doesn't define me. If they are just like us except for their sexuality, then Just shut up and keep it to themselves. If it is necessary to explain why the wife they are bringing to the sports game is of the same gender OK, and we should be polite, and not hateful. But there is both a difference between accepting and loving someone no matter what their sexual orientation, and celebrating that orientation... and also expecting people to be polite and not discriminate against homosexuality, and putting it out there and demanding that everybody embrace that life style.

CaptainFearNot. I cannot see into your heart. I can only read what you post, but it certainly looks like you might have some of the same problems Lot did back there in Sodom all those years ago!

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but I see we've reached the stage of the conversation where you've chosen to stoop to personal attacks.

I've been playing in this league for three years and never mentioned it until now, when I thought it relative to the topic at hand. My experience directly contradicts the dated polemic quoted in the OP, so I offered it. Others have found that their experiences have more or less borne it out, which I can appreciate.

Where have I demanded that everybody embrace the gay lifestyle?

[FTC]

And I know you've seen male dogs mounting one another as well and other animals like elk and deer
doing it too, but you have never seen photographic proof of a completed act of penetrating anal intercourse in animals, because it simply does not exist in nature, and if it did, we'd damn-sure have photographs of it.

Its obvious this was written well before the internet became prevalent. And, this guy is a city boy - never lived on a farm. Nor went to a Latin American mission. Haha! I've seen male-on-male, female-on-female, female-on-male, animal necrophilia, animals humping inanimate ojects (tractors, hay bales, motorcycles, towels, canvas sacks, barrels, dog houses, etc. etc.), and interspecies anal penetration with full copulation. And don't get me started on friends I've had that worked at the aquariums. To put it briefly, that's all the sea animals do after the visitors have gone home: hump, copulate, "mate", with anything they can rub up against, including each other.
Sorry, Carl, but it most certainly exists. When an animal gets horny, they will hump, completely regardless of sexuality.
I will refrain from posting the easily accessible photographic proof that he claims does not exist. :p

Before people speculate it, No, I am not supporting the homosexual lifestyle. And, No, I am not using animal multisexuality to provide support for it.

Carl's article needs a revamp that does more than just remove God/religion from it. It also needs a hefty dose of supporting proof of more than just his personal anecdotes. The gay community would tear this thing apart without breaking a sweat.

[gclayjr]

CaptainFearnot,

Where have I demanded that everybody embrace the gay lifestyle?

Where have I said that you DID demand that everybody accept the gay lifestyle? I looks like in order to smear me, you are deceptive in your accusations!... But that is to be expected!

I won't go into detail, but I will say that my experience in getting to know several dozen gay men personally over the past few years, and "rubbing shoulders" with hundreds more, has led me in the opposite direction as the article quoted above, with regard to my esteem for the "gay community."

I realize my experience is anecdotal and your mileage may vary, but I believe experiences like mine are the reason we have seen such a dramatic shift in the acceptance of equal rights for gays over the last decade or so.

What I am saying (Even though I at least note that I am only guessing because I cannot see into your heart), is that you seem to be accepting it, which doesn't necessarily mean living it. You seem to think that gays getting more rights... like marriage? is a good thing. I guess it is a good thing if a flower shop owner or a bakery cannot decline to make flower arrangements or bake cakes for gay weddings, because of moral and conscience reasons, I guess that isn't fair, and the force of the law should be applied to make sure they are "fair" to gay celebration of weddings, in their business practices.

I shouldn't have to repeat this, but since we live in a world full of angry snowflakes, I will repeat that do not think that we should hate Gays,(Hate the sin love the sinner), we should be polite, and respectful, and if they are coworkers, neighbors, or on the same sports team, they should be treated with equal respect as everybody else. The only thing I say, is that we shouldn't be associated with organizations that are advocates of sin.

Regards,

George Clay

[captainfearnot]

Where have I said that you DID demand that everybody accept the gay lifestyle?

I guess I assumed you were lumping me in with the gays in your paragraph that ended with "But there is both a difference between accepting and loving someone no matter what their sexual orientation, and celebrating that orientation... and also expecting people to be polite and not discriminate against homosexuality, and putting it out there and demanding that everybody embrace that life style" since I am the one advocating for them here. But re-reading I suppose that assumption was unwarranted. The post was addressed to me, but this may well have been a general observation.

I agree there is a difference between those two things. But since you're not accusing me (or anyone else in this thread, evidently) of doing that, I guess you were waxing hypothetical. I specifically indicated that the gays I associate with (unlike the churchgoers I associate with) do not encourage (let alone demand) that I or anybody else embrace that lifestyle. So maybe I reminded you of some other unfortunate encounter you haven't mentioned? Likewise, the gays I associate with do "shut up about it," as evidenced by those who were surprised to hear that gay sports leagues existed, so you must not have had them (or me) in mind with that remark, either.

The only thing I say, is that we shouldn't be associated with organizations that are advocates of sin.

Right, and above you went on to say that the reason we shouldn't associate with advocates of sin is because of the risk we could come to embrace that sin ourselves. Though I gather from your clarifying remarks since that there may be other reasons you oppose it, which I can appreciate so far as I can intuit them.

[Alaris]

One thing I liked about the OP is that there is a natural repulsion to homosexuality. However I don't think nature necessarily needs to be cited to back up this claim. As a straight male, I can add my witness and the witness of just about every heterosexual male friend I have ever had. We are naturally repulsed by homosexuality. (Before anyone chortles about lesbianism, that does not apply to my statement because as a man I can't comment on what a woman's natural reaction to homosexuality is.)

Is it nature? Is it the light of Christ? Is it the the Holy Ghost? Yes. All of the above. The hypocrisy of "tolerance" is the gay agenda demands everyone tolerate in one direction. Can I and every straight man be free to find the act repulsive? Can we be free to believe it is an egregious sin and yet still be held to the standard of showing human decency to homosexuals? To the gay agenda, that will never be good enough. The demand of the gay agenda is one of complete acceptance - accepting both the sinner and the sin. Like I said in my earlier post, the gay agenda will never be satisfied primarily because it is not something that can be satisfied. The agenda itself is not something that can ever lead to anything resembling satisfaction or harmony as nothing short of mind reading and thought control could satisfy its demands.

[JohnnyL]

I currently play in a gay sports league. It happens to be the largest of its kind in the nation, with nearly 500 athletes. Probably around 80% of the participants are gay men, the other 20% are straight men and women. Strictly my own estimates. There may be a handful of gay women, I don't really know.

I first became aware of this league about five years ago, but didn't join right away because my experience with gay people was next to zero. I didn't know what to expect, and felt some trepidation. I could count on one hand the number of gay people I had known in my life. But I kept reading that this was the funnest league in town so in 2015 I took the plunge and joined.

I can easily say this has been the best managed, friendliest, and funnest sports league I have ever participated in. I play in several church (non-LDS) and city rec leagues as well, and the contrast is striking at times.

I won't go into detail, but I will say that my experience in getting to know several dozen gay men personally over the past few years, and "rubbing shoulders" with hundreds more, has led me in the opposite direction as the article quoted above, with regard to my esteem for the "gay community."

I realize my experience is anecdotal and your mileage may vary, but I believe experiences like mine are the reason we have seen such a dramatic shift in the acceptance of equal rights for gays over the last decade or so.

People read and believe articles like the one above, but then when they actually go out and associate with gays, their experiences don't bear out the rhetoric.

The latter is happening more often as the stigma has fallen and more and more gays are coming out of the closet. Turns out every family has a gay person in it somewhere and more often than not that person is not the scourge to society we were all led to believe they should be.

Maybe you were reading into the article? What was the "rhetoric" that didn't bear out?

[braingrunt]

Regarding animal sexuality, it seems to me like neither side has a valid point. On the one hand, I agree, horny animals are not 100% picky. But on the other hand, what does that prove? That they were born with it? Well, kinda, maybe. But it's sorta ALL of them. Would you please point to an animal and say: "this one is definitely homosexual". I think such a thing would be ridiculous.

If animals prove anything, perhaps it's that ANYONE acting like an animal might exhibit sexuality inappropriate for a child of God.

[Jonesy]

Regarding animal sexuality, it seems to me like neither side has a valid point. On the one hand, I agree, horny animals are not 100% picky. But on the other hand, what does that prove? That they were born with it? Well, kinda, maybe. But it's sorta ALL of them. Would you please point to an animal and say: "this one is definitely homosexual". I think such a thing would be ridiculous.

If animals prove anything, perhaps it's that ANYONE acting like an animal might exhibit sexuality inappropriate for a child of God.

Exactly. This is why nature should not be our proof. It doesn't always represent God. Who cares if the animal does it instinctively or behaviorally? The act is homosexual. See where this is going? So, if a human does it instinctively, it's okay???

This is why God has to be part of the conversation here. When I was on my mission, my companion and I taught a Muslim. I shared some scriptures from the Book of Mormon with him. Afterwards, my companion asked me why I shared passages from the Book of Mormon. After all, he's Muslim; he doesn't believe in that. I told my companion that it didn't matter. The Book of Mormon is still God's word, it's authoritative and binding. Same idea here. When it comes down to it in these last days, isn't that the heart of the matter?