Homosexuality Information

[JohnnyL]

It's hard to get decent information to talk to people about on this topic, so when I ran across this, I figured I would post.

It's nitty gritty and graphic in some spots, but a (cleaner, simpler) summary of it could make a very good discussion piece with teens and above who "don't understand" all about it and why God and the LDS church are against it, and/or are unsure about where they stand in regards to acceptance, or not.

It's not gospel, nor is it strictly scientific.

///
THE TRUTH ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY
by Carl F. Worden

I am going to address the issue of homosexuality and it's effects because I worked very closely with over 300 homosexual men in the late 60s and early 70s, which was just before gay rights groups began to organize into the political power base they represent today.

I considered most of these "gay" men to be at least close business associates, and a number of them would definitely fall into the category of
being close personal friends, so any attempt to categorize my comments here as "homophobic" would be in vain.

I'm going to write the truth here, and because of the nature of the subject, that truth will be graphic and make some of you very uncomfortable
reading it. However, all but perhaps one of those healthy young men I knew 25 years ago is dead, and nearly all of them died from an AIDS-related
illness, so this is not the time to sugar-coat the reality of what the homosexual lifestyle is, and what it does to it's willing participants.

Articles written with a critical eye toward homosexuality are all too often based upon emotion, and include biblical references which condemn the
practice. I wrote the original version of this article back in 1999 with a reference to the religious view, and a reader asked me to modify it to
exclude any mention of God or religion. I gave it some thought, and the reader had a good point: Christians don't have to be reminded of the
biblical view toward homosexuality, but one mention of it to non-believers and you can hear their minds slam shut. So this is my very dispassionate,
non-religious tale of a terrible tragedy I personally witnessed.

Now, I warned you I'd have to get graphic here, and it is time to bluntly remind everyone just what this horrendous, perverted, septic and medically
dangerous practice really is. To refer to this physically revolting act as something flowery, like "Gay Love" is like referring to an execution by
disembowelment as mere "euthanasia".

We all need to go back to square one, before the desensitization of the media lulled us away from the reality of what a homosexual act is. We need
to go back to that time when the initial thought, that impression we envisioned when we first heard about this act filled us with revulsion.
That revulsion and nausea you felt wasn't borne of ignorance, but of a spontaneous and instinctive rejection of what you immediately recognized as
an abhorrent, disgusting and wholly unnatural thing to do. There's nothing whatsoever to be ashamed for admitting this, because it just happens to be the natural response.

As I mentioned earlier, gay rights groups didn't really exist until around 1975, and even then, they were very disorganized at best. That was before
they got together and agreed on the fat lie that they were somehow born into homosexuality. I'll never buy that nonsense, and I'll tell you why:
Not one of my friends ever told me they thought they were born into homosexuality. Not one of them. They would tell me why, and their stories
were often similar, but not one of them ever told me they believed they were born that way. In every case of the men I knew, they had made
homosexuality a choice, and many of those men had been married prior to adopting that lifestyle.

Let's clear something up right now: Homosexuality, including Lesbianism, are fetishes. They are not biological conditions people are born with. Anne
Heche is a celebrity lesbian one minute, and goes heterosexual the next. Go figure. In many cases, today's homosexuals were molested at a very young age by another man, and experienced their very first orgasm that way. That experience can and does warp a young man's sexual orientation, no doubt about it, and helps explain why we hear young homosexuals relate the same story that they just felt different sexually than their friends. Of course they do, and understandably so, when we remember their very first imprinted sexual climactic experience came from the hands, mouth (or worse) of another man.

In recent years there has been a rather predictable development that has been very carefully hidden from the public:
Organizations of "recovering homosexuals" have sprung up all over this nation, made up of both men and women who have escaped the homosexual
lifestyle and have taken up successful heterosexual relationships. In some cases, former lesbians have met and married former gay men and are now
raising families. You will find it interesting to note that Anna Freud, Sigmund's daughter, reported the "recovery" of three homosexuals in her
writings in the 1940's. If homosexuality is so natural and people are born into it, how can this be? Answer: It can't be.

There are those who keep telling the persistent lie that homosexuality occurs naturally in animals, so therefore it occurs naturally in man. So
where are the photos? Have you ever seen a photograph of two male animals completing an act of anal intercourse? Think about it: We've all seen
photographs of Big Foot and flying saucers, right? And I know you've seen male dogs mounting one another as well and other animals like elk and deer
doing it too, but you have never seen photographic proof of a completed act of penetrating anal intercourse in animals, because it simply does not
exist in nature, and if it did, we'd damn-sure have photographs of it. Does that little revelation trouble you? It should. It should make you question
all the other "truths" you've accepted over the years, like "Prohibition was a mistake, but the War On Drugs isn't", but that's another subject
altogether.

Now let me tell you about my very dead friends.

This saga took place in the San Francisco Bay Area, before HIV infections caused the San Francisco Health Department to shut down the public "bath
houses" where these men would go to "meet" each other. Okay, so I'm getting all flowery. The men would go there to engage other men in anal intercourse. Sometimes these men would have 4, 5, 6 or more sexual liaisons with complete strangers in one night. Some of these acts would take place through plywood walls with penis-sized holes cut in them to secure the anonymity between the participants, and sometimes they would take place through holes cut in cloth sheets.

Don't even bother to ask how HIV infections spread so quickly in that kind of environment. Anyone could have predicted it.

If you thought the "gay lifestyle" was just about two guys playing house, you've bought into just another of the many lies they want you to believe. Brutal acts of sado-masochism between homosexuals are often played out, sometimes resulting in injury and even death, and the physical beatings between homosexual and lesbian "lovers" are legend within the law enforcement community as well as with emergency health care professionals -- which is another fact you won't see reported in the mainstream media. If there ever was a misnomer, it is the term "gay" when referring to these pitiful creatures. [Ed: The death of a homosexual at TV-celeb Michael Barrymore's house after what the media termed 'rough gay sex' shows us in reality what this writer is referring to].

My friends would get totally wasted on alcohol and drugs, often coming in on Monday morning looking like they were at death's door after a typical weekend orgy, and it came as no surprise to learn recently that both male homosexuals as well as lesbians have a life span roughly 40% shorter than heterosexuals.

Dr. Paul Cameron holds a Ph.D. from the University of Colorado, and his work has been published in the medical journal Omega. This is what he reported:
For heterosexuals, the average man lives to be 73; women 77.
For homosexuals, the average AIDS caused death is 39 and non-AIDS caused death is a remarkable age 42! For lesbians the average age of death is 44 because the rate of AIDS among lesbians is not a significant factor.

Dr. William Bennet, who authored the book "The Death of Outrage", commented that the Clinton administration has made such a big deal about tobacco use shaving 6-7 years off one's life, while openly supporting the gay death style that is known to shave off over 30 years from the average life span.

David Foster, a former homosexual and author, found that the rate of injury and death from domestic violence among homosexuals is at least five times that of heterosexuals, and when it comes to lesbian relationships, the rate goes right off the scale. Apparently, lesbians beat the hell out of each other, and often. He also points to a very high incidence of drug and alcohol abuse as another strong factor in reducing the life spans of homosexuals and lesbians so drastically.

Nothing I personally witnessed falls in dispute with the above published findings, and I have over 300 dead bodies as evidence to back them. Now that you are aware of these facts -- and they are facts indeed -- how could any parent of one of these hapless, errant children join a support group like Parents And Friends of Gays And Lesbians which openly defends the gay lifestyle -- and even promotes it? How could any parent encourage their child to continue a lifestyle known to lead to an early death? Why would any parent tolerate a public school that teaches their children that homosexuality and lesbianism are naturally occurring sexual orientations? They are those who refuse to learn the truth, or worse; those who refuse to accept the truth.

When I tell an openly gay person to seek help in order to save them from an early death, is that an act of hate? They will tell you it is. Not only are we to accept the gay lifestyle, but these individuals and groups also insist we embrace their lifestyle in our schools where it can be painted as "normal". Normal?

Let me ask you something: What is normal about a young man with a herniated sphincter who must wear diapers due to fecal incontinence from having submitted to so many acts of anal intercourse? I knew several young men who had that disgusting problem. What's natural and normal about that? What's so natural and normal about your child dying before you? What's so natural and normal about having to get an AIDS test every three months? I don't have to, and I'll bet the average reader doesn't have to either.

Perhaps I am more sensitive to this issue than most, but whenever I hear someone describe themselves as openly gay, I automatically visualize them engaged with another man in a revolting act of anal intercourse, ruining my appetite. Yet few people understand that nothing turns gay men on more than the idea you'd be both shocked and disgusted by their behavior.

You see, all the homosexual men I knew were psychological exhibitionists as well, and they were absolutely thrilled to see "straight" people recoil at the sight of them prancing around, lisping almost every word. As bizarre as it sounds, the homosexual community wants what it knows will rob the savor from their salt. The more we "accept" openly homosexual behavior, the more repugnant and bizarre their behavior becomes in order to garner the same level of shock and disgust. So when a gay rights supporter asks that frequently heard question, "Would a person deliberately place themselves in a position to be hated and reviled?", the answer is an unequivocal "Yes, they would!". And in fact, they do.

The fact is, the homosexual lifestyle contributes nothing of a positive nature to society. If anything, the homosexual lifestyle has proven to be destructive to it's participants, and because of the septic nature of anal intercourse, the homosexual lifestyle has proven to quickly spread HIV as well as that most recent and perhaps even deadlier threat, Hepatitis C. The public health costs imposed by the gay community on the rest of society have been costly indeed -- and no one can dispute that. And also consider this: Can you recall any invention, any life-saving vaccine or any improvement to society by any individual because he was gay? Did his "gay-ness" contribute anything at all, or did he achieve his accomplishments in spite of it? We all know the answer.

So should we be more compassionate for these people, or should we adopt a tough love kind of response? Should we allow our young children to be taught something is normal, when we know that not even the animals will engage in it? What about when those children might be tempted to experiment with it and thus become its unwitting victims as well? Would any parent want their children to experience the degradation and early death I've described here? I hope not.
///
famguardian.org/publishedauthors/media/antishyster/V11N3-TruthAboutHomo.pdf

[Serragon]

I appreciate the information.

Any full-scale indulgence of the natural man is destructive both physically and spiritually. This is just another example.

When we are expected to elevate a sexual fetish to be the defining characteristic of life, to be celebrated and encouraged, then we are truly lost.

[Robin Hood]

This article is excellent.
Totally reflects my views.
Absolutely nailed it

[gclayjr]

JohnnyL,

Very good article. The world needs to hear more of this straight talk.

This is a true, undeniable, destructive conspiracy, that could be mitigated a lot by simply shedding the light of truth upon it. Maybe if half as much, energy and effort went into getting some sunshine on this as is spent in chasing questionable tales about videos faking airplanes crashing into the pentagon, or trying to blame all of the world's economic woes on a secret cabal of Jewish bankers, then the world might actually be made somewhat better simply by shedding the light of truth on this one.

Regards,

George Clay

[Serragon]

I used to hang out with the homosexual community in our area frequently in the early 90's. They scoffed at the idea, which was just becoming prevalent at the time due to a UCLA study, that homosexuals were "born that way". It actually made them angry as they were proud of the fact that they had chosen this alternative life style and the born that way movement was ruining that.

Flash forward to today. Simply stating publicly that homosexuality is not a choice can get you fired and is considered hateful. The Church has bought into this as well and has put out videos stating that homosexuality is not a choice.

I suspect the old-school homosexuals really don't care for this new generation of activists who are simply playing at homosexuality.

[Fiannan]

I used to hang out with the homosexual community in our area frequently in the early 90's. They scoffed at the idea, which was just becoming prevalent at the time due to a UCLA study, that homosexuals were "born that way". It actually made them angry as they were proud of the fact that they had chosen this alternative life style and the born that way movement was ruining that.

Flash forward to today. Simply stating publicly that homosexuality is not a choice can get you fired and is considered hateful. The Church has bought into this as well and has put out videos stating that homosexuality is not a choice.

I suspect the old-school homosexuals really don't care for this new generation of activists who are simply playing at homosexuality.

Does the Church actually say it is not a choice? Not that the videos that come out of Church necessarily reflect Gospel doctrine anymore, but I would hope that they would not go quite that far.

[Serragon]

I used to hang out with the homosexual community in our area frequently in the early 90's. They scoffed at the idea, which was just becoming prevalent at the time due to a UCLA study, that homosexuals were "born that way". It actually made them angry as they were proud of the fact that they had chosen this alternative life style and the born that way movement was ruining that.

Flash forward to today. Simply stating publicly that homosexuality is not a choice can get you fired and is considered hateful. The Church has bought into this as well and has put out videos stating that homosexuality is not a choice.

I suspect the old-school homosexuals really don't care for this new generation of activists who are simply playing at homosexuality.

Does the Church actually say it is not a choice? Not that the videos that come out of Church necessarily reflect Gospel doctrine anymore, but I would hope that they would not go quite that far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bgooicLEE

[Gage]

There is not much that can be done, the world has accepted it and there is no turning back now, just teach your children that it is wrong. You cant speak out against it publicly unless you want to be killed. Heck a church and religion cant even denounce it without members leaving and the world turning against it.

[RocknRoll]

Wow. What a bunch of outdated, homophobic, lies. Anyone who buys into this tripe needs to take a step back and examine why. Almost every “fact” presented here is either a distortion of truth or a blatant lie. Sure, some pretty disgusting things go on in the seedy areas of San Fran, etc. But that is definitely not the norm for the mainstream gay community. Once you’ve observed close family and/or friends living normal, healthy, loving lives (some well into their 60's and beyond) as homosexuals, this kind of hate filled drivel will make you cringe! Just because it’s “yucky” to you, doesn’t give you the right to try to bring a whole segment of the population down. At least you acknowledge that your opinions are not in line with current church teachings.

[BTH&T]

Wow. What a bunch of outdated, homophobic, lies. Anyone who buys into this tripe needs to take a step back and examine why. Almost every “fact” presented here is either a distortion of truth or a blatant lie. Sure, some pretty disgusting things go on in the seedy areas of San Fran, etc. But that is definitely not the norm for the mainstream gay community. Once you’ve observed close family and/or friends living normal, healthy, loving lives (some well into their 60's and beyond) as homosexuals, this kind of hate filled drivel will make you cringe! Just because it’s “yucky” to you, doesn’t give you the right to try to bring a whole segment of the population down. At least you acknowledge that your opinions are not in line with current church teachings.

Homosexuality is "yucky" to the Gospel. Again separate the sin and the person committing sin.

God has said:
"And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—Cursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do wickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the blessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." Alma 45: 16

Show love and compassion to all, including sinners (which we all are)
Sin is "yucky"!

[captainfearnot]

I currently play in a gay sports league. It happens to be the largest of its kind in the nation, with nearly 500 athletes. Probably around 80% of the participants are gay men, the other 20% are straight men and women. Strictly my own estimates. There may be a handful of gay women, I don't really know.

I first became aware of this league about five years ago, but didn't join right away because my experience with gay people was next to zero. I didn't know what to expect, and felt some trepidation. I could count on one hand the number of gay people I had known in my life. But I kept reading that this was the funnest league in town so in 2015 I took the plunge and joined.

I can easily say this has been the best managed, friendliest, and funnest sports league I have ever participated in. I play in several church (non-LDS) and city rec leagues as well, and the contrast is striking at times.

I won't go into detail, but I will say that my experience in getting to know several dozen gay men personally over the past few years, and "rubbing shoulders" with hundreds more, has led me in the opposite direction as the article quoted above, with regard to my esteem for the "gay community."

I realize my experience is anecdotal and your mileage may vary, but I believe experiences like mine are the reason we have seen such a dramatic shift in the acceptance of equal rights for gays over the last decade or so. People read and believe articles like the one above, but then when they actually go out and associate with gays, their experiences don't bear out the rhetoric. The latter is happening more often as the stigma has fallen and more and more gays are coming out of the closet. Turns out every family has a gay person in it somewhere and more often than not that person is not the scourge to society we were all led to believe they should be.

[Older/wiser?]

And this is the line we walk , normalization of a sin does not lessen it, nor change G_ds decree of its consequences upon us and our nation.

[BTH&T]

I realize my experience is anecdotal and your mileage may vary, but I believe experiences like mine are the reason we have seen such a dramatic shift in the acceptance of equal rights for gays over the last decade or so.

The issue is not about what the gays are like, good or bad. I know many wonderful people that are gay.
But that does not change what is right or wrong.
I see in my extended family how this poor behavior destroys lives and families.

I do not believe that we should be cruel nor should we strike out at people. It is more important to love all.

We should always stand for correct principles!

Eternal Families are Fathers married to Mothers, having posterity.
Raised up to progress with their posterity forever, how does being Gay fit into that?
What it is not is two mothers, or two dads, or transgendered or whatever someone thinks they may or may not be.

The issue is that there is sin and evil.
Homosexuality is sin and evil. The same for adulterers, murder is sin and evil and it is wrong. Same with theft, lying and blasphemy.
Sin is anything that takes us away from God.

The Gospel is very exact, and we want to stay on the path that leads us home.
No one is free from sin, and we all must repent.

[Jonesy]

Man, I wish I could agree with this article. I can't. I served my mission in a foreign country where abandoned pet dog populations were out of control. I've been around them so much in my mission, it was interesting to watch their different behaviors. They do behave homosexually. That is a fact I can verify, in more than one way. And they're not just playing.

Additionally, the more society accepts homosexuality, the less deviant and abnormal their social behaviors will become. I have a few friends that are in homosexual relationships, and they don't seem too different than a normal heterosexual relationship in today's society. That's why I think that's the most dangerous part of it all. Homosexuals can otherwise assimilate into "normal" ways of society. The matter is where our society is headed as a whole.

Furthermore, I can't agree that leaving God out of this is a good idea (or in anything, really). Let's be real here: the only way one can turn from any sin is if Christ changes our heart. Maybe this article will be worthwhile and do good, but that is the heart of the matter.

That's why the only real convincing article that I've read addressing this subject is below:

https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2015/1 ... edophilia/

[Gage]

Man, I wish I could agree with this article. I can't. I served my mission in a foreign country where abandoned pet dog populations were out of control. I've been around them so much in my mission, it was interesting to watch their different behaviors. They do behave homosexually. That is a fact I can verify, in more than one way. And they're not just playing.

Additionally, the more society accepts homosexuality, the less deviant and abnormal their social behaviors will become. I have a few friends that are in homosexual relationships, and they don't seem too different than a normal heterosexual relationship in today's society. That's why I think that's the most dangerous part of it all.

Furthermore, I can't agree that leaving God out of this is a good idea (or in anything, really). Let's be real here: the only way one can turn from any sin is if Christ changes our heart. Maybe this article will be worthwhile and do good, but that is the heart of the matter.

That's why the only real convincing article that I've read addressing this subject is below:

https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2015/1 ... edophilia/

Like the article said "show me a picture" Animals are not displaying homosexual behavior they are showing instinctive behaviors. My female cow tries to hump another female cow when it is in heat. None of my female cows are gay. You can try and twist the interpretation all you want but that is exactly what it is a "human interpretation" Animals breed to reproduce. Scientist try to twist homosexual behaviors in animals to further an agenda. They feed animals steroids and other drugs and try to stimulate their brains into performing more "homosexual like" behaviors. They disable some genes in animals to where a female actually believes it is male. These are all done in controlled environments to further societies gay agenda. Any "homosexual like" behavior that was observed in the wild from animals was about dominance or competition. No matter how you try to twist and misinterpret the behavior, animals do not go out and seek homosexual pleasures.

[captainfearnot]

And this is the line we walk , normalization of a sin does not lessen it, nor change G_ds decree of its consequences upon us and our nation.

What about the normalization of hetero sin? The article wants us to be grossed out by gay sex, but don't forget that anal sex (and everything else) is on the menu for hetero couples, too.

The church used to try to tell married members what they could and couldn't do in their own bedrooms, but the members won't stand for it anymore. Anyone remember the hue and cry over that FP letter in the early 80s that defined oral sex as an unholy and impure practice? They had to issue a retraction. And the handbook verbiage on birth control has changed significantly in recent years, primarily because times have changed and the members were simply ignoring the old policies.

In short, the normalization of gay sin is probably less about desensitization and more about empathy. We know how little we welcome religious authorities regulating our own bedroom activities, and so we feel hypocritical passing judgment on others.

[Jonesy]

Man, I wish I could agree with this article. I can't. I served my mission in a foreign country where abandoned pet dog populations were out of control. I've been around them so much in my mission, it was interesting to watch their different behaviors. They do behave homosexually. That is a fact I can verify, in more than one way. And they're not just playing.

Additionally, the more society accepts homosexuality, the less deviant and abnormal their social behaviors will become. I have a few friends that are in homosexual relationships, and they don't seem too different than a normal heterosexual relationship in today's society. That's why I think that's the most dangerous part of it all.

Furthermore, I can't agree that leaving God out of this is a good idea (or in anything, really). Let's be real here: the only way one can turn from any sin is if Christ changes our heart. Maybe this article will be worthwhile and do good, but that is the heart of the matter.

That's why the only real convincing article that I've read addressing this subject is below:

https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2015/1 ... edophilia/

Like the article said "show me a picture" Animals are not displaying homosexual behavior they are showing instinctive behaviors. My female cow tries to hump another female cow when it is in heat. None of my female cows are gay. You can try and twist the interpretation all you want but that is exactly what it is a "human interpretation" Animals breed to reproduce. Scientist try to twist homosexual behaviors in animals to further an agenda. They feed animals steroids and other drugs and try to stimulate their brains into performing more "homosexual like" behaviors. They disable some genes in animals to where a female actually believes it is male. These are all done in controlled environments to further societies gay agenda. Any "homosexual like" behavior that was observed in the wild from animals was about dominance or competition. No matter how you try to twist and misinterpret the behavior, animals do not go out and seek homosexual pleasures.

Yes, I know what you mean. Behavioral or instinctive, whatever. Without being descriptive, I definitely have seen homosexual behavior in dogs. Like I said, in more than one occasion and in different ways. If you don't think even nature can err or go against the grain (like, perhaps a fig tree), then you are mistaken. We are all in a fallen state, and even nature can behave unnaturally. The important thing is to tie what part of nature is of God, and which is a part of our fallen nature. Isn't there a story about a church leader killing a bee because it unnaturally attacked him?

I could be wrong, but if this is the angle we're going to take then we'll lose. I don't find it convincing and it may not even be reality.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex ... in_animals

I hope you were able to read the blog I linked to.

[Fiannan]

Animals mate with their own offspring once the offspring is sexually mature. Humans generally have religious codes against that.

[Gage]

It doesnt matter, every society before us that was destroyed, failed because every year a little more and a little more became accepted. Every kind of sin became a little less and less a sin over time. Every society that was wiped out forgot that God was watching and ours will be no different.

[DesertWonderer]

I currently play in a gay sports league. It happens to be the largest of its kind in the nation, with nearly 500 athletes. Probably around 80% of the participants are gay men, the other 20% are straight men and women. Strictly my own estimates. There may be a handful of gay women, I don't really know.

I first became aware of this league about five years ago, but didn't join right away because my experience with gay people was next to zero. I didn't know what to expect, and felt some trepidation. I could count on one hand the number of gay people I had known in my life. But I kept reading that this was the funnest league in town so in 2015 I took the plunge and joined.

No one finds it odd and disturbing that an LDS male would join a gay sports league? Please tell me It's a joke and I'm just slow on the uptake?

[endlessQuestions]

Being attracted to somebody is not a sin. Engaging in any act that is prohibited by God is a sin, including condemning a man or woman unjustly. It would appear we all have plenty to repent of. I'm going to start now.

[Fiannan]

Interesting perspective:

[captainfearnot]

No one finds it odd and disturbing that an LDS male would join a gay sports league? Please tell me It's a joke and I'm just slow on the uptake?

What's the problem, exactly?

[Gage]

I was surprised to know that there was even a gay sports league out there to begin with. Guess I am small town sheltered.

[gclayjr]

CaptainFearNot

What's the problem, exactly?

Did not Sodom pollute and pervert all of Lot's family, and to a great extent Lot himself. When God sent Angels to burn Sodom and Gomorrah, did not Lot find himself, desperately negotiating with them saying that they really weren't all that bad? Wasn't it too much for all of his family, including his wife that had to look back, and his daughters who later secretly practiced incest on their father as he slept?

The problem with people who embrace evil, is that on a social level, we do often discover that they aren't such bad guys. It often leads to a belief, similar to what you display with you responses, that hey these guys aren't so bad, what is the problem? and unfortunately for so many others actually deciding that the practice itself isn't so bad, so they begin to indulge themselves step, by step down to hell!

Regards,

George Clay