My thoughts about the Denver Snuffer Movement

[SJR3t2]

Okay, I was confused about the reference to Denver. I was asking only about the Joseph fought polygamy book. I have never heard anyone mention anything about it containing information about Brigham arranging to kill Joseph and since that's a pretty substantial accusation, I would have expected someone to mention it. Since you seem unwilling to tell me, I'll just find out from someone else.

While the book might contain references to evidence, it in itself is not evidence. I would want to see official government information offering rewards and awarding money to Brigham Young and things like that. I have searched some and never found anything of that nature. I would imagine it would be heavily referenced on the anti sites which is why I'm dubious of its existence. But since you brought it up, I'll check into it further and report back on what I find.

Well do your research then. This subject is not one I'm so concerned with as I am with other subjects. I do believe it is what happened.

[Finrock]

Okay, I was confused about the reference to Denver. I was asking only about the Joseph fought polygamy book. I have never heard anyone mention anything about it containing information about Brigham arranging to kill Joseph and since that's a pretty substantial accusation, I would have expected someone to mention it. Since you seem unwilling to tell me, I'll just find out from someone else.

While the book might contain references to evidence, it in itself is not evidence. I would want to see official government information offering rewards and awarding money to Brigham Young and things like that. I have searched some and never found anything of that nature. I would imagine it would be heavily referenced on the anti sites which is why I'm dubious of its existence. But since you brought it up, I'll check into it further and report back on what I find.

Well do your research then. This subject is not one I'm so concerned with as I am with other subjects. I do believe it is what happened.

SJR3t2,

With respect, if you are going to believe and then perpetuate the notion that Brigham Young was essentially a murderer, you better have real data to back that up, otherwise, you are acting dishonorably. It is completely unreasonable for you to believe that someone is a murderer without any substantial or real evidence. Before you offer these ideas as facts, you ought to be able to point us to where we can find historical records such as government information offering rewards (as suggested by Meili) or anything which can substantiate your claim of murder. It's a big deal to claim someone is a murderer even if you aren't so concerned with it. Without substantial and real evidence you are engaging in slander and libel. Not cool.

-Finrock

[SJR3t2]

With respect, if you are going to believe and then perpetuate the notion that Brigham Young was essentially a murderer, you better have real data to back that up, otherwise, you are acting dishonorably. It is completely unreasonable for you to believe that someone is a murderer without any substantial or real evidence. Before you offer these ideas as facts, you ought to be able to point us to where we can find historical records such as government information offering rewards (as suggested by Meili) or anything which can substantiate your claim of murder. It's a big deal to claim someone is a murderer even if you aren't so concerned with it. Without substantial and real evidence you are engaging in slander and libel. Not cool.

I have run across facts that support this, but I have not always kept links for everything, I am doing better at that now. I have not gone back to get links again, because I am honestly more worried about more things.

So you mean be like the LDS church who purports the BoM happened in Mesoamerica without any proof. Look into the Heartland/Hopewell model, it has tons of proofs.

[sushi_chef]

sushi_ tends to imagine this asssasination of smith brothers, the order of this came from the top of masonry, whole things had been orchestrated for years even including the construction of carthage jail(1839).
how about the ralation to the death of parley p pratt???

http://www.salamandersociety.com/interviews/willbagley/

seems he is going to be one of the doorkeepers....
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35581&p=526729
:-B

[Chris]

sushi_ tends to imagine this asssasination of smith brothers, the order of this came from the top of masonry, whole things had been orchestrated for years even including the construction of carthage jail(1839).
how about the ralation to the death of parley p pratt???

http://www.salamandersociety.com/interviews/willbagley/

seems he is going to be one of the doorkeepers....
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35581&p=526729
:-B

Give me a break. If Brigham wanted Joseph dead he would have done it in Kirtland when there were several apostates plotting such a thing. What did Brigham do, got up and rebuked them and told them they were all going to hell. So sick of people spreading lies about good people and especially about prophets of God. Can you not see this is right up the devils alley. He is the great deceiver and he has a lot of fun with gullible saints.

[Silver Pie]

Whoa, dude. Show me some evidence. Even just a little.

You can find pieces here and there one place to start is http://restorationbookstore.org/jsfp-index.htm

I have volumes one and two of Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy. Will you please give me page numbers (hard copy, because that is what i have)? I have looked in the index and, though BY is in there in abundance, I saw nothing that said he was party to JS's death. I think this book is trustworthy as far as the documents and evidence they provide, so I'd really be interested - and don't want to read both volumes again just to find that.

[Rose Garden]

Okay, I was confused about the reference to Denver. I was asking only about the Joseph fought polygamy book. I have never heard anyone mention anything about it containing information about Brigham arranging to kill Joseph and since that's a pretty substantial accusation, I would have expected someone to mention it. Since you seem unwilling to tell me, I'll just find out from someone else.

While the book might contain references to evidence, it in itself is not evidence. I would want to see official government information offering rewards and awarding money to Brigham Young and things like that. I have searched some and never found anything of that nature. I would imagine it would be heavily referenced on the anti sites which is why I'm dubious of its existence. But since you brought it up, I'll check into it further and report back on what I find.

Well do your research then. This subject is not one I'm so concerned with as I am with other subjects. I do believe it is what happened.

SJR3t2,

With respect, if you are going to believe and then perpetuate the notion that Brigham Young was essentially a murderer, you better have real data to back that up, otherwise, you are acting dishonorably. It is completely unreasonable for you to believe that someone is a murderer without any substantial or real evidence. Before you offer these ideas as facts, you ought to be able to point us to where we can find historical records such as government information offering rewards (as suggested by Meili) or anything which can substantiate your claim of murder. It's a big deal to claim someone is a murderer even if you aren't so concerned with it. Without substantial and real evidence you are engaging in slander and libel. Not cool.

-Finrock

Yes, this is the reason I'm paying attention to the subject. It makes no difference to me whether Brigham arranged to have Joseph killed. But it does matter if the man I'm conversing with is being honest and careful.

By now, Steven, I've determined you are not. I've checked out the books you referred me to and none of them contain information about Brigham Young arranging Joseph's death. The anti boards make no reference to solid evidence on the matter either. The most damning evidence comes from a vision someone had in which Willard Richards killed Joseph instead of the mob. Visions are not evidence.

Everyone makes mistakes and so I'm not concerned so much about the initial foolishness of posting unsubstantiated information. What I am concerned about is being led on a wild goose chase by you so that you can cover your butt. That was disrespectful and dishonorable.

This sort of behavior is not without consequence. Requiring solid evidence before accusing a person of something is a fundamental principle of liberty. It's the willingness of the people of this country to disregard evidence in favor of whatever suits their paradigm that has led to the judicial mess we have in our country. I would urge you to do what you can to clear this tendency out from yourself. If you do not, I suspect that someday you will realize with horror just how harmful it has been to you and those you love.

[sushi_chef]

ummm, sushi_ might have been inebriated by conspiracy spirits too much....but still tends to think should not underestimate the masonry power, especially in usa.
:-B

[mcusick]

I believe it is still on the earth. There are some very good forgotten quotes about how the highest priesthood is given from Joseph Smith and I see it in the BoM also.

So who do you believe are the current priesthood holders?

Just to clarify about the priesthood Moses 6:7 Now this same Priesthood, which was in the beginning, shall be in the end of the world also. If you read v8 it then discusses genealogy, The Priesthood and genealogy are tied together.

I believe an in-depth study of Rev. 1-5 Gives understanding to the Lords dealings and counsel to the 7 Churches, and shows the Lord doesn't separate the Priesthood from His Bride the Church, thou she is chastened. IMHO

I was getting to that brother, just trying to show him how the priesthood/church are one and you can't have one without the other

FLDS, right?

[sushi_chef]

circa around some years after mmm.
https://search.yahoo.co.jp/image/search ... onic%20pin

in utah war tops of both sides were mason, just as other wars
:-B

[SJR3t2]

Yes, this is the reason I'm paying attention to the subject. It makes no difference to me whether Brigham arranged to have Joseph killed. But it does matter if the man I'm conversing with is being honest and careful.

By now, Steven, I've determined you are not. I've checked out the books you referred me to and none of them contain information about Brigham Young arranging Joseph's death. The anti boards make no reference to solid evidence on the matter either. The most damning evidence comes from a vision someone had in which Willard Richards killed Joseph instead of the mob. Visions are not evidence.

Everyone makes mistakes and so I'm not concerned so much about the initial foolishness of posting unsubstantiated information. What I am concerned about is being led on a wild goose chase by you so that you can cover your butt. That was disrespectful and dishonorable.

This sort of behavior is not without consequence. Requiring solid evidence before accusing a person of something is a fundamental principle of liberty. It's the willingness of the people of this country to disregard evidence in favor of whatever suits their paradigm that has led to the judicial mess we have in our country. I would urge you to do what you can to clear this tendency out from yourself. If you do not, I suspect that someday you will realize with horror just how harmful it has been to you and those you love.

How is it that I am not being honest? I'm not the one that brought up that subject in the forum. And I honestly forgot I put that in the post.

Your behavior of calling me a liar when I have not lied will be called upon in heaven also.

What about the evidence that the BoM happened in Mesoamerica as the LDS church has claimed, there is none. There is evidence that it happened in Heartland/Hopewell.

[SJR3t2]

FLDS, right?

I grew up LDS, and currently not a member of any church.

[Silver]

FLDS, right?

I grew up LDS, and currently not a member of any church.

I hope you come back, but if not Doctrine & Covenants 121:38 applies.

[SJR3t2]

I hope you come back, but if not Doctrine & Covenants 121:38 applies.

D&C 121:38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

I think this applies even more.

[Joseph Smith] closed by referring to the Mormon Bible, which he said, contained nothing inconsistent or conflicting with the Christian Bible, and he again repeated that all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved. - Words of Joseph Smith - Deluxe Study Edition (Kindle Locations 563-564). Packard Technologies. Kindle Edition.

Joseph Smith is saying the most important thing is to do the commandments of the Lord, which is what I focus on.

[Finrock]

What about the evidence that the BoM happened in Mesoamerica as the LDS church has claimed, there is none. There is evidence that it happened in Heartland/Hopewell.

How is that question even remotely relevant to what you have said or what you have done?

-Finrock

[SJR3t2]

How is that question even remotely relevant to what you have said or what you have done?

I'm applying what you applied to me to LDS church.

[mcusick]

If I could share a little personal anecdote on Denver Snuffer and my experience with his writings:

Before reading Denver Snuffer, I couldn’t come to terms with church history. I figured that one day I would leave the church. For a long time, I was angry at the church and its leadership. I felt lied to and betrayed over our messy history. It was not until I read the book 'Passing the Heavenly Gift' that I was able to reach a reconciled and loving view. Ultimately, I believe those in authority are a reflection of the body they come out. If there is a deficit in substantive spiritual experiences, that burden is shared by both the members and their leaders.

After reading 'Passing the Heavenly Gift' in 2012, I felt optimistic. I believed by adopting a more scripturally supported understanding of Mormon history and doctrine, I could remain a faithful latter-day saint. Through the arguments in 'Passing the Heavenly Gift', I was reactivated and served a mission. The idea that the book is faith-destroying is simply a lie. I and hundreds of others had our faith strengthened through reading it; many returned to activity through the books he wrote.

When I found out the church excommunicated him while I was on my mission, I was very confused. The church obviously doesn’t welcome my type of faith or outlook (despite Elder Uchtdorf’s claims that there is room for everyone in his October 2013 Conference talk ‘Come, Join with Us’). Now I am left asking where is my place in the church? I honestly don't believe it exists anymore.

Of course, that was just my experience and acknowledge that people could have left the church after reading the book (though I have never met one, in person or online).

[Chris]

I hope you come back, but if not Doctrine & Covenants 121:38 applies.

D&C 121:38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

I think this applies even more.

[Joseph Smith] closed by referring to the Mormon Bible, which he said, contained nothing inconsistent or conflicting with the Christian Bible, and he again repeated that all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved. - Words of Joseph Smith - Deluxe Study Edition (Kindle Locations 563-564). Packard Technologies. Kindle Edition.

Joseph Smith is saying the most important thing is to do the commandments of the Lord, which is what I focus on.

So throw out the 99% of revealed word that Joseph got very detailed in explaining exactly what must be done to be saved in the celestial kingdom. Literally 1000's of detailed explanations, quotes and scriptures. Grasp on to one vague quote ,one that makes you feel good and that you feel can make you justified in leaving the church and hope it is good enough?...... You know very well what he is saying in that quote. That anyone who is or isn't a member of the church who LEARNS the truth by reading the bible and BOM will then apply the teachings and receive all of the ordinances of the said books command us to receive and grow and develop by what those book tell us to do. Very clear he is saying anyone who reads and applies will receive the gospel in its fullness and receive all the ordinances and they can only lead us into the restored church of Christ here on the earth....... Good luck at the bar of God explaining that one how you left god and his church and his prophet and the priesthood because of such a stupid justification of such a quote that you know does not mean what you claim.

[SJR3t2]

So throw out the 99% of revealed word that Joseph got very detailed in explaining exactly what must be done to be saved in the celestial kingdom. Literally 1000's of detailed explanations, quotes and scriptures. Grasp on to one vague quote ,one that makes you feel good and that you feel can make you justified in leaving the church and hope it is good enough?...... You know very well what he is saying in that quote. That anyone who is or isn't a member of the church who LEARNS the truth by reading the bible and BOM will then apply the teachings and receive all of the ordinances of the said books command us to receive and grow and develop by what those book tell us to do. Very clear he is saying anyone who reads and applies will receive the gospel in its fullness and receive all the ordinances and they can only lead us into the restored church of Christ here on the earth....... Good luck at the bar of God explaining that one how you left god and his church and his prophet and the priesthood because of such a stupid justification of such a quote that you know does not mean what you claim.

LDS church does not follow church gov as laid out in the D&C. You are misrepresenting what I believe to suit your needs to vilify me.

[Chris]

I am not trying to be rude Steven. I am just trying to help you see what I feel is a major mistake. God loves you and he wants you to come back. Please come back

[SJR3t2]

I am not trying to be rude Steven. I am just trying to help you see what I feel is a major mistake. God loves you and he wants you to come back. Please come back

You are sure being rude, for not trying to be rude. You also are not quoting scriptures much, I quote lots of scriptures.

[Silver]

I am not trying to be rude Steven. I am just trying to help you see what I feel is a major mistake. God loves you and he wants you to come back. Please come back

You are sure being rude, for not trying to be rude. You also are not quoting scriptures much, I quote lots of scriptures.

Let's look at this from another angle. What is the name of the first man who wrote an Anti-Mormon book?

[SJR3t2]

Let's look at this from another angle. What is the name of the first man who wrote an Anti-Mormon book?

I don't consider myself anti-Mormon, I believe in the BoM. Also I would not consider Denver anti-Mormon either, as he believes in the BoM also.

[Alaris]

With respect, if you are going to believe and then perpetuate the notion that Brigham Young was essentially a murderer, you better have real data to back that up, otherwise, you are acting dishonorably. It is completely unreasonable for you to believe that someone is a murderer without any substantial or real evidence. Before you offer these ideas as facts, you ought to be able to point us to where we can find historical records such as government information offering rewards (as suggested by Meili) or anything which can substantiate your claim of murder. It's a big deal to claim someone is a murderer even if you aren't so concerned with it. Without substantial and real evidence you are engaging in slander and libel. Not cool.

I have run across facts that support this, but I have not always kept links for everything, I am doing better at that now. I have not gone back to get links again, because I am honestly more worried about more things.

So you mean be like the LDS church who purports the BoM happened in Mesoamerica without any proof. Look into the Heartland/Hopewell model, it has tons of proofs.

I've been ..what's the word. ...lurking ...on this thread, but I'd like to chime in here. Both Finrock and SJR3t2 have valid points here - if God were to tell you "Brigham Young murdered Joseph" Smith you have knowledge but no proof. If God then tells you, "SJR3t2 go and preach to this people that Brigham Young murdered Joseph Smith" then you are at least doing God's will.

EDIT: I misread SJR3t2's post as I thought the point was about how God teaches us knowledge without physical / worldy proof. I'm actually not sure what the purpose of SJR3t2's point is above as it seems to be a pointless knock against the LDS church and how faith comes before knowledge (See Ether 12) and seems to be backing up the need for hard physical proof

However, I'm just not seeing or feeling the spirit and or fruits that indicate such is the case SJR3t2. It seems more like you've thrown that out there without much of a thought of how to back it up, and since you mentioned that you aren't keeping track of links but doing a better job at such, then I'm guessing that it wasn't God who told you Brigham Young murdered Joseph Smith. Do you feel my logic train here SJR3t2? If it were God, then you'd have that weight and authority behind you not, "I didn't keep track of my links."

Are you angry against a church leader or a decision or some event that has blossomed into hatred against the LDS church? I'm not judging definitively here that that's the case, but a baseless accusation that BY murdered Joseph Smith sure seems like a convenient justification to believe the foundation and to cast aside the rest. And it appears to me that emotion is the source of these "connections."

I am not making a casual or a lazy judgement here--My own mother has gone down a similar course due to anger blossoming out of control. She's mad about A and the devil has cunningly led her to believe it's actually B she should be mad at.

Regarding the lost manuscript:

D&C 10:32 And, behold, they will publish this, and Satan will harden the hearts of the people to stir them up to anger against you, that they will not believe my words.

SJR3t2, the adversary didn't stop with the lost manuscript. His campaign to fight the church is alive and well, and the fruits of his spirit reveal what's what. Anger, contention, bitterness, resentment. Those are the fruits of those who fight the LDS church, and I see them here.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Those who stand comfortably with the truth will be full of love, joy, peace, gentleness .. temperance... pretty much the opposite of the fruits of those who kick against the pricks.

[SJR3t2]

I don't have hatred against the LDS church. I love the people. I grew up with them, they are my family. I'm still glad for my history in the LDS church. But does it not become a man that has been warned to warn his neighbor?

Regarding not having links to support as evidence I'm not from God, that is a pretty weak argument. But believe as you wish. No one can prove anything to any man, but can only show why he believes that way in hopes of persuading them to the same.

I agree the Devil is fighting against God's church, we have a different idea what God's church is. Lets just start with scriptures that define church.

D&C 10
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

Mosiah 26:22 For behold, THIS IS MY CHURCH; WHOSOEVER IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE BAPTIZED UNTO REPENTANCE. And whomsoever ye receive shall believe in my name; and him will I freely forgive.

Those who pervert/change the ways of the Lord are part of the great and abominable church.

1 Nephi 22:14 And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, WHO HATH PERVERTED THE RIGHT WAYS OF THE LORD, YEA, THAT GREAT AND ABOMINABLE CHURCH, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it.

I am trying to show what is in the scriptures, and return to what they say.