My thoughts about the Denver Snuffer Movement

[SJR3t2]

I'm confused, is this thread about Denver Snuffer, Brigham Young killing Joseph Smith, geographical models of the Book of Mormon, or the legitimacy of priesthood claims of the LDS church?

There has been lots of side tracking, that is for sure.

[SJR3t2]

You've run across 'facts that support this'? Okay, then, if there are 'facts' then where is the evidence that Brigham Young was indicted or even prosecuted for murdering Joseph Smith? Where are the 'facts' that Willard Richards plotted the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum? You don't have 'facts', what you've got is GARBAGE CRAP that a bunch of people made up over 150 years ago to try to discredit the leaders of the church and now it's being dusted off for a new gullible audience to ingest. You do know there were many people who came forward and vied for control of the church. Many of them had 'stories' to tell to try to get people to believe in their claims and blacken the good character of others. I'd say those who set up the Reorganized Church were pretty good at making this crap up and spewing it out, for fools to then repeat.

Just the 'fact' that you give this garbage any credence doesn't bode well for your ability to ever find 'truth'. Sorry to be blunt, but if you think you can remove your name from the church and break with it, but still use priesthood (which you wouldn't even know about if it hadn't been for the teachings of the church), you are seriously mistaken. It is truly amazing how people can be so deluded, but you are exactly the kind of person the Prophet Joseph F. Smith warned about. Those : “proud and self-vaunting ones, who read by the lamps of their own conceit; who interpret by rules of their own contriving; who have become a law unto themselves, and so pose as the sole judges of their own doings” (Gospel Doctrine, 381). Fittingly quoted by Elder Ballard in his talk 'Beware of False Prophets'. You ought to read it.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/10/04/in-h ... yesterday/

There are lots of false prophets that is for sure, you shall know them by their fruits. Many prophets who claim titles for which they have no fruits. I am no prophet, I have not seen Jesus Christ face to face, although I want too.

Those who don’t seek the presence of the Lord will be lead into temptations.

3 Nephi 18:25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather HAVE COMMANDED THAT YE SHOULD COME UNTO ME, THAT YE MIGHT FEEL AND SEE; even so shall ye do unto the world; and WHOSOEVER BREAKETH THIS COMMANDMENT SUFFERETH HIMSELF TO BE LED INTO TEMPTATION.

After saying this, Jesus turns to the 12.

3 Nephi 18:26 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he turned his eyes again upon the disciples whom he had chosen, and said unto them:

[SJR3t2]

Regarding Joseph Smith Last dream. I have come across three dreams that are called this, this is my favorite one.

"I was back in Kirtland, Ohio, and thought I would take a walk out by myself, and view my old farm, which I found grown up with weeds and brambles, and altogether bearing evidence of neglect and want of culture. I went into the barn, which I found without floor or doors, with the weather-boarding off, and was altogether in keeping with the farm.

"While I viewed the desolation around me, and was contemplating how it might be recovered from the curse upon it, there came rushing into the barn a company of furious men, who commenced to pick a quarrel with me.
"The leader of the party ordered me to leave the barn and farm, stating it was none of mine, and that I must give up all hope of ever possessing it.
"I told him the farm was given me by the Church, and although I had not had any use of it for some time back, still I had not sold it, and according to righteous principles it belonged to me or the Church.

"He then grew furious and began to rail upon me, and threaten me, and said it never did belong to me nor to the Church.

"I then told him that I did not think it worth contending about, that I had no desire to live upon it in its present state, and if he thought he had a better right I would not quarrel with him about it but leave; but my assurance that I would not trouble him at present did not seem to satisfy him, as he seemed determined to quarrel with me, and threatened me with the destruction of my body.

"While he was thus engaged, pouring out his bitter words upon me, a rabble rushed in and nearly filled the barn, drew out their knives, and began to quarrel among themselves for the premises, and for a moment forgot me, at which time I took the opportunity to walk out of the barn about up to my ankles in mud.

"When I was a little distance from the barn, I heard them screeching and screaming in a very distressed manner, as it appeared they had engaged in a general fight with their knives. While they were thus engaged, the dream or vision ended." (Recorded 27 June 1844) TPJS pgs. 393-394

[SJR3t2]

I recognize a troll eventually. Takes me a while but I always get there.

Have I attacked you? Have I done anything against you other than having a different belief than you and shared it?

[brlenox]

How can you leave the church and claim to have a testimony of the BOM and Joseph. Ill never understand how the devil can so deceive people. Joseph gave literally hundreds of prophecies about the destiny of this church in the latter days! What about those! What about his prophecies of Brigham Young and the last charge meeting. The whole Brigham assassin line is crap and anyone with half of a brain should be able to see that without any questions.

IS he a prophet or not. Josephs prophecies have all been fulfilled. How can you turn your back on the prophet? The cleansing is coming very soon, come back while there is time to do so.

You know I have come across that there are around 500 churches/groups that believe in the BoM and Joseph Smith, and LDS church is only one of them. There is no where in the BoM it says there is a requirement to be LDS to believe in the BoM.

In fact that is a Baptist preacher that is somewhat famous and uses the BoM in his church and his members believe it also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8X8a7DtwUI

Here is a forgotten quote from JS regarding the BoM.

[Joseph Smith] closed by referring to the Mormon Bible, which he said, contained nothing inconsistent or conflicting with the Christian Bible, and he again repeated that all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved. - Words of Joseph Smith - Deluxe Study Edition (Kindle Locations 563-564). Packard Technologies. Kindle Edition.

You have been willing to make some very extreme accusations, particularly against Brigham Young. Knowing these men as I do, having studied their writings extensively, I always find it amazing how people can come to such conclusions as you have but then at length something reveals itself and it becomes clear that folks that can sustain such conclusions are not seekers of truth. They seek only that which affirms themselves.

Case in point is these types are often not very accurate in their readings of others. To whit I review the quote you provided and characterized as a “forgotten quote from JS regarding the BOM”. Perhaps you will note below is the first paragraph of the last 3 paragraphs of a letter contained in the footnote on page 34 of Words of Joseph Smith. Perhaps you will note the actual context of your “quote” provided with the final 2 paragraphs of the letter with the signature of author:

Towards the close of his address, he remarked that he had been represented as pretending to be a Savior, a worker of miracles, etc. All this was false. He made no such pretensions. He was but a man, he said; a plain, untutored man; seeking what he should do to be saved. He performed no miracles. He did not pretend to possess any such power. He closed by referring to the Mormon Bible, which he said, contained nothing inconsistent or conflicting with the Christian Bible, and he again repeated that all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved.

Throughout his whole address, he displayed strongly a spirit of charity and forbearance. The Mormon Bible, he said, was communicated to him, direct from heaven. If there was such a thing on earth, as the author of it, then he (Smith) was the author; but the idea that he wished to impress was, that he had penned it as dictated by God.

I have taken some pains to explain this man's belief, as he himself explained it. I have done so because it might satisfy your curiosity, and might be interesting to you, and some of your friends. / have changed my opinion of the Mormons. They are an injured and much-abused people. Of matters of faith, you know I express no opinion.

Affectionately your husband,
M. L.Davis. 4

Sometimes people want to excuse these kinds of blatant errors as of little significance. The quote you provided is M. L. Davis paraphrasing the contents of a talk he listened to. For the fact that I think the quote is probably reflective of Joseph Smiths expectations, it nonetheless is clearly not claiming the full implications of your use of the material to bolster an all are saved that claim Christ as Savior mentality. We have born again Christianity for that errant message.

Nonetheless, I feel these types of errors provide very significant clues for evaluation of those who use them so carelessly. When people make such mistakes it becomes clear that they are not exacting in their quests to understand truth. They are sloppy in their research and it doesn’t matter as the only truth they are seeking is their own. They simply look for affirmation of their truths which they quickly claim are correct based upon a borrowed authority by association with a prophet or general authority of merit.

It is especially a move of genius to disclaim the church as illegitimate and without inspiration and then cite ensign articles that confirm some other element of your claims such as “All is well in Zion.” Are church resources credible now that they can be twisted to support some aspect of your misguided message? And yet completely unreliable when they might conflict with your message? Inconsistency is ever the mark of those mislead. They do not know who to listen to, they have no standard to moderate their own errant wanderings and then they refuse to listen to sound counsel which might ameliorate errors of thinking. Fortunately most here seem to have determined that you have no message of worth. That is very fortunate indeed.

[brlenox]

Tata

So I guess you don't want to ask me the question then. Take care.

But I have a question. I am noticing some anomalies in your writing...Is English your first language?

[brlenox]

Do you believe in the Mesoamerican model of BoM? I know there are plenty of threads about BoM geography in this forum, but I don't remember if you have been an active participant in them. SJR3t2 seems to know your beliefs :p
Or maybe he is just doing this "mind reading" we discussed in another thread...

I am was saying what the LDS church has pushed for very long time.

The church has no official stance on Book of Mormon location. You are referencing what John L. Sorenson, A BYU professor made popular. It was only his model, never the church's. I am sorry but all of your ramblings seems without actual knowledge or understanding. I could spend days just correcting errant material that you keep putting out there....no time for such...Unless something credible shows up ... I'm, out.

[SJR3t2]

It is especially a move of genius to disclaim the church as illegitimate and without inspiration and then cite ensign articles that confirm some other element of your claims such as “All is well in Zion.” Are church resources credible now that they can be twisted to support some aspect of your misguided message? And yet completely unreliable when they might conflict with your message? Inconsistency is ever the mark of those mislead. They do not know who to listen to, they have no standard to moderate their own errant wanderings and then they refuse to listen to sound counsel which might ameliorate errors of thinking. Fortunately most here seem to have determined that you have no message of worth. That is very fortunate indeed.

God told me to remove my name from the LDS church. The fact it came from God it is inspiration.

Although there is some good in the LDS church there is also bad. If you want to make this thread about the things I have found out about the church and how God told me remove my name we can do that.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/10/04/in-h ... yesterday/

[iWriteStuff]

It is especially a move of genius to disclaim the church as illegitimate and without inspiration and then cite ensign articles that confirm some other element of your claims such as “All is well in Zion.” Are church resources credible now that they can be twisted to support some aspect of your misguided message? And yet completely unreliable when they might conflict with your message? Inconsistency is ever the mark of those mislead. They do not know who to listen to, they have no standard to moderate their own errant wanderings and then they refuse to listen to sound counsel which might ameliorate errors of thinking. Fortunately most here seem to have determined that you have no message of worth. That is very fortunate indeed.

God told me to remove my name from the LDS church. The fact it came from God it is inspiration.

Although there is some good in the LDS church there is also bad. If you want to make this thread about the things I have found out about the church and how God told me remove my name we can do that.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/10/04/in-h ... yesterday/

Or here's a thought - stop monologuing and try a dialogue. You spout a bunch of rubbish and then when someone calls you on it, you conveniently change the topic or pretend you don't understand the question. No one can take you seriously when you A) use garbage research that you don't even cite or understand properly and then B) duck and dodge the follow up questions until everyone loses interest or patience.

Crap, I just fed the bear.... #-o

bears.jpg (13.09 KiB) Viewed 1076 times

[Silver]

internet-troll-1.jpg (217.23 KiB) Viewed 1066 times

"We have learned by sad experience..."

[simpleton]

It is especially a move of genius to disclaim the church as illegitimate and without inspiration and then cite ensign articles that confirm some other element of your claims such as “All is well in Zion.” Are church resources credible now that they can be twisted to support some aspect of your misguided message? And yet completely unreliable when they might conflict with your message? Inconsistency is ever the mark of those mislead. They do not know who to listen to, they have no standard to moderate their own errant wanderings and then they refuse to listen to sound counsel which might ameliorate errors of thinking. Fortunately most here seem to have determined that you have no message of worth. That is very fortunate indeed.

God told me to remove my name from the LDS church. The fact it came from God it is inspiration.

Although there is some good in the LDS church there is also bad. If you want to make this thread about the things I have found out about the church and how God told me remove my name we can do that.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/10/04/in-h ... yesterday/

“A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power and baneful effects.
l-) l-) l-)

I think that the above is rampant today. Notice that most everybody thinks they/we have the "spirit". Well I have no doubt that there is "spirit" , but who's? Or from what source? .... don't answer, we all think it is from the right source. Just something to contemplate.

[SJR3t2]

The Lord shares his Spirit abundantly with everyone who keeps the commandments, he shares it MORE abundantly with those who are baptized.

Mosiah 18:10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may POUR out his Spirit MORE ABUNDANTLY upon you?

[AI2.0]

It is especially a move of genius to disclaim the church as illegitimate and without inspiration and then cite ensign articles that confirm some other element of your claims such as “All is well in Zion.” Are church resources credible now that they can be twisted to support some aspect of your misguided message? And yet completely unreliable when they might conflict with your message? Inconsistency is ever the mark of those mislead. They do not know who to listen to, they have no standard to moderate their own errant wanderings and then they refuse to listen to sound counsel which might ameliorate errors of thinking. Fortunately most here seem to have determined that you have no message of worth. That is very fortunate indeed.

God told me to remove my name from the LDS church. The fact it came from God it is inspiration.

Although there is some good in the LDS church there is also bad. If you want to make this thread about the things I have found out about the church and how God told me remove my name we can do that.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/10/04/in-h ... yesterday/

Well, since you are sticking around, I do have some questions.

You say God told you to remove your name from the LDS church. How can you be certain it was God? Did he give you a reason?
Do you believe there is a Devil and that he tries to deceive us, to take us away from Truth and light? When God told you this, did you have some way to prove to yourself that it was God who was speaking to you and not a false spirit? If you still believe in Joseph Smith, he taught this. He said that lying spirits would attempt to deceive those searching for truth. How can you be certain that you aren't one of those who've been deceived?

So you say that you believe the Book of Mormon, but you don't believe in the LDS church. That's not far fetched to me, there have been many break off sects from the original church who still use the Book of Mormon, but are not affiliated with the LDS church--even the Community of Christ and t he FLDS believe in the Book of Mormon. Do you still believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God?

If you don't believe in the church he restored, then I assume you don't believe that Joseph Smith had any other purpose than to translate the Book of Mormon, is that correct?

The reason I ask you is that if this is the case, then you are rejecting a lot of Joseph's revelations, such as everything to do with the higher ordinances of the temple. What makes you any different that all those other break off sects which do the exact same thing, but they believe THEY are the true church. What gives you authority to pick and choose what is correct and what is false that the LDS church teaches?

[Silver Pie]

Perhaps this was mentioned downthread, but I am interested in the answer to this. Are you thinking of someone in Joseph Smith's time? Or are you talking about Book of Mormon times? (Obviously, I don't know the answer.)

Let's look at this from another angle. What is the name of the first man who wrote an Anti-Mormon book?

I don't consider myself anti-Mormon, I believe in the BoM. Also I would not consider Denver anti-Mormon either, as he believes in the BoM also.

That's alright. Please answer the question if you know. If not, just say so. (I promise this won't hurt.)

[Silver Pie]

I'm confused, is this thread about Denver Snuffer, Brigham Young killing Joseph Smith, geographical models of the Book of Mormon, or the legitimacy of priesthood claims of the LDS church?

I believe it has turned into a hodge podge mongrel. Long, long ago it left the topic of the DS movement.

[Silver]

Perhaps this was mentioned downthread, but I am interested in the answer to this. Are you thinking of someone in Joseph Smith's time? Or are you talking about Book of Mormon times? (Obviously, I don't know the answer.)

Let's look at this from another angle. What is the name of the first man who wrote an Anti-Mormon book?

I don't consider myself anti-Mormon, I believe in the BoM. Also I would not consider Denver anti-Mormon either, as he believes in the BoM also.

That's alright. Please answer the question if you know. If not, just say so. (I promise this won't hurt.)

In Joseph's time. It was Eber D. Howe.

[AI2.0]

Perhaps this was mentioned downthread, but I am interested in the answer to this. Are you thinking of someone in Joseph Smith's time? Or are you talking about Book of Mormon times? (Obviously, I don't know the answer.)

I don't consider myself anti-Mormon, I believe in the BoM. Also I would not consider Denver anti-Mormon either, as he believes in the BoM also.

That's alright. Please answer the question if you know. If not, just say so. (I promise this won't hurt.)

In Joseph's time. It was Eber D. Howe.

I was going to say Doctor Philastus Hurlbut, but you are right, Howe was the author of the book, 'Mormonism Unvailed' which published Hurlbut's affidavits he'd collected to discredit the character of the Smith Family, the Mormon church and Joseph in particular.

[Silver]

Perhaps this was mentioned downthread, but I am interested in the answer to this. Are you thinking of someone in Joseph Smith's time? Or are you talking about Book of Mormon times? (Obviously, I don't know the answer.)

That's alright. Please answer the question if you know. If not, just say so. (I promise this won't hurt.)

In Joseph's time. It was Eber D. Howe.

I was going to say Doctor Philastus Hurlbut, but you are right, Howe was the author of the book, 'Mormonism Unvailed' which published Hurlbut's affidavits he'd collected to discredit the character of the Smith Family, the Mormon church and Joseph in particular.

Right. Hurlbut who? Eber Howe is who? My point is that these Johnny-come-lately's come on here trying to shock us into quitting the Lord's organization on earth. Nobody will remember them here or in real life after their 15 minutes of fame. Yet because Joseph Smith was true to the faith and because he died as a martyr, "Millions shall know Brother Joseph again". (Hymn #27, Praise to the Man)

[Silver Pie]

I don't remember ever hearing the name, though I have heard the name of the book. Your point of people being forgotten has been proven, imo.