From Scott - the NOWmormon

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NOWmormon
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by NOWmormon »

I am thinking that this is not the correct venue for me and other members like me.

...At least a conversation has been started.
Maybe it will help users here bear each others burdens a little more.
Maybe it will eventually help you to welcome others who, like me, go to the temple with you, sit in general conference with you, home teach you, and ordain you.
I will look elsewhere.
I remember the words "Where can I turn for peace, where is my solace".
Obviously it is in Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.
and who does He reach out to?
Not the ninety and nine, which are safe, but the one.
And maybe "the one" is not lost, but searching for support, because the ninety and nine say "he has lost his testimony" and "Who cares?", like some of you told me.
The Sacrament prayer says we must keep the commandments which He has given us, so that we may have His spirit to be with us.
And what is the new commandment?--love one another.
Have you loved me?

Until we meet again, perhaps in other forums.
Adieu


Alma 60:36
...I seek not for power...I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God...And thus I close mine epistle.

Teancum
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by Teancum »

Scott, about the only thing I can think of to say is this:

The devil will hit each of us with the hardest possible thing that he can, that we can handle. So, cheer up, at leat you know that you CAN handle it (and moreso with the help of Jesus Christ). It may be the hardest thing in your life, I don't know, as we each have areas where we are weak. But I do know that our Father in Heaven loves His children, and He expects us to love Him and them too. If we have those two things down then we don't need to worry about anything else.

braingrunt
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by braingrunt »

Rensai wrote: May 4th, 2017, 6:49 pm ...

1) Believe the church version where Joseph is a liar who publicly denounces polygamy in the strongest terms, even swearing under oath that he is not doing it, but secretly is lying, marrying other women behind his wifes back, etc. Not only that, but somehow he's doing it on God's orders as a prophet in good standing, even though God cannot lie; and to most reasonable people telling your servant to lie would be the same as if you had lied yourself. My tolerance for cognitive dissonance isn't high enough for this option.
....
The Old Testament prophets in good standing resolve this problem for you; or if not there's some cognitive dissonance in your cognitive dissonance.

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AI2.0
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by AI2.0 »

NOWmormon wrote: May 4th, 2017, 8:22 pm I am thinking that this is not the correct venue for me and other members like me.

...At least a conversation has been started.
Maybe it will help users here bear each others burdens a little more.
Maybe it will eventually help you to welcome others who, like me, go to the temple with you, sit in general conference with you, home teach you, and ordain you.
I will look elsewhere.
I remember the words "Where can I turn for peace, where is my solace".
Obviously it is in Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.
and who does He reach out to?
Not the ninety and nine, which are safe, but the one.
And maybe "the one" is not lost, but searching for support, because the ninety and nine say "he has lost his testimony" and "Who cares?", like some of you told me.
The Sacrament prayer says we must keep the commandments which He has given us, so that we may have His spirit to be with us.
And what is the new commandment?--love one another.
Have you loved me?

Until we meet again, perhaps in other forums.
Adieu


Alma 60:36
...I seek not for power...I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God...And thus I close mine epistle.
"Scott", if you are truly sincere, then you'll have no trouble sitting in church, the temple, General Conference or anywhere else among your fellow saints. And if you are sincere, you will recognize the spirit prompting you to repent and humble yourself, seek the guidance of the Lord and be patient. Answers for you will come, in the Lord's time, as he does desire to 'try' our faith. That's how faith is strengthened. It must be tried and tested, exercised.

You might think we are defensive and wary, but there's good reason. Your thread showed how easy it is to throw a 'bone' into the LDSFF forum and then watch the posters tear each other apart over it. You can't do that at Reddit or Mormondiscussions, but we are a very diverse group, many are ex LDS, some are still members, but not active, some have followed after break off sects and some are very active and believing. We're a stew pot ready to boil over if a little more heat is added to the mix.

It's just too easy to start a squabble when you have such a varied group...and there's no question some on the internet consider that a form of entertainment.

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shadow
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by shadow »

Original_Intent wrote: May 4th, 2017, 3:10 pm My heart goes out to you NOWMormon, I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
He's not looking for any answers to any questions. He wants sympathy and justification for his feelings. When an adult comes running in like death is near because he has a little sliver yet refuses the advise of others on how to remove the sliver and he still keeps pouting, then you know you're not dealing with someone who is looking for a solution. Many here, including big, bad, mean Shadow, have offered good advise to him. He has no questions, he's trying to be a victim by claiming he's been deceived by the church because Josephs polygamy isn't taught at church. There's been no question from him so there's no answer to be offered.

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Rose Garden
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by Rose Garden »

shadow wrote: May 5th, 2017, 1:47 pm
Original_Intent wrote: May 4th, 2017, 3:10 pm My heart goes out to you NOWMormon, I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
He's not looking for any answers to any questions. He wants sympathy and justification for his feelings. When an adult comes running in like death is near because he has a little sliver yet refuses the advise of others on how to remove the sliver and he still keeps pouting, then you know you're not dealing with someone who is looking for a solution. Many here, including big, bad, mean Shadow, have offered good advise to him. He has no questions, he's trying to be a victim by claiming he's been deceived by the church because Josephs polygamy isn't taught at church. There's been no question from him so there's no answer to be offered.
A person doesn't have to all questions to be looking for answers.

I would say he was looking for reinforcement for his idea that he's been hurt by the church by recreating the scenario again. He comes, makes a controversial post on a forum on which the members clearly will disagree with his perspective, then exactly what you would expect happens and he leaves justified over again in his assessment of the members of the church. Not only has the church slighted him but so have the members of LDSFF. I wouldn't be surprised to find that he has done this on multiple forums.

I've done the same thing myself a few times. It gets tiring after a while. I expect Scott will eventually find more productive things to do.

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shadow
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by shadow »

I agree with you Meili.

The only one who's slighting him is himself, and maybe those who fall for his antics and give him false validation and encouragement. At some point he needs to mature a bit and drop the victim mentality. He claims he's in his 50's (I would've guessed early 30's) so hopefully he gets things figured out sooner than later.

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nightlight
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by nightlight »

NOWmormon wrote: May 4th, 2017, 8:22 pm I am thinking that this is not the correct venue for me and other members like me.

...At least a conversation has been started.
Maybe it will help users here bear each others burdens a little more.
Maybe it will eventually help you to welcome others who, like me, go to the temple with you, sit in general conference with you, home teach you, and ordain you.
I will look elsewhere.
I remember the words "Where can I turn for peace, where is my solace".
Obviously it is in Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.
and who does He reach out to?
Not the ninety and nine, which are safe, but the one.
And maybe "the one" is not lost, but searching for support, because the ninety and nine say "he has lost his testimony" and "Who cares?", like some of you told me.
The Sacrament prayer says we must keep the commandments which He has given us, so that we may have His spirit to be with us.
And what is the new commandment?--love one another.
Have you loved me?

Until we meet again, perhaps in other forums.
Adieu


Alma 60:36
...I seek not for power...I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God...And thus I close mine epistle.
Funny how you question Joseph Smith s character then leave the discussion with a quote from Alma... I think you are an active poster under different name trying to be a wise serpent / harmless dove lol if so u r just being a donkey, but if I'm wrong I apologise.

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AI2.0
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by AI2.0 »

Meili wrote: May 5th, 2017, 3:28 pm
shadow wrote: May 5th, 2017, 1:47 pm
Original_Intent wrote: May 4th, 2017, 3:10 pm My heart goes out to you NOWMormon, I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
He's not looking for any answers to any questions. He wants sympathy and justification for his feelings. When an adult comes running in like death is near because he has a little sliver yet refuses the advise of others on how to remove the sliver and he still keeps pouting, then you know you're not dealing with someone who is looking for a solution. Many here, including big, bad, mean Shadow, have offered good advise to him. He has no questions, he's trying to be a victim by claiming he's been deceived by the church because Josephs polygamy isn't taught at church. There's been no question from him so there's no answer to be offered.
A person doesn't have to all questions to be looking for answers.

I would say he was looking for reinforcement for his idea that he's been hurt by the church by recreating the scenario again. He comes, makes a controversial post on a forum on which the members clearly will disagree with his perspective, then exactly what you would expect happens and he leaves justified over again in his assessment of the members of the church. Not only has the church slighted him but so have the members of LDSFF. I wouldn't be surprised to find that he has done this on multiple forums.

I've done the same thing myself a few times. It gets tiring after a while. I expect Scott will eventually find more productive things to do.
It's a pattern that we've seen many times. A 'driveby' poster comes here, posts something that is sure to generate responses and even though the initial poster remains for the most part, aloof (some disappear), we argue it amongst ourselves for pages and pages, until we're tired of arguing. I don't think it would have mattered what we said. If he'd wanted only posts that agreed or sympathized with him, why would he come to a pro-LDS forum and not realize that some would try to counter his criticisms?

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Rose Garden
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by Rose Garden »

AI2.0 wrote: May 5th, 2017, 4:30 pm
Meili wrote: May 5th, 2017, 3:28 pm
shadow wrote: May 5th, 2017, 1:47 pm
Original_Intent wrote: May 4th, 2017, 3:10 pm My heart goes out to you NOWMormon, I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
He's not looking for any answers to any questions. He wants sympathy and justification for his feelings. When an adult comes running in like death is near because he has a little sliver yet refuses the advise of others on how to remove the sliver and he still keeps pouting, then you know you're not dealing with someone who is looking for a solution. Many here, including big, bad, mean Shadow, have offered good advise to him. He has no questions, he's trying to be a victim by claiming he's been deceived by the church because Josephs polygamy isn't taught at church. There's been no question from him so there's no answer to be offered.
A person doesn't have to all questions to be looking for answers.

I would say he was looking for reinforcement for his idea that he's been hurt by the church by recreating the scenario again. He comes, makes a controversial post on a forum on which the members clearly will disagree with his perspective, then exactly what you would expect happens and he leaves justified over again in his assessment of the members of the church. Not only has the church slighted him but so have the members of LDSFF. I wouldn't be surprised to find that he has done this on multiple forums.

I've done the same thing myself a few times. It gets tiring after a while. I expect Scott will eventually find more productive things to do.
It's a pattern that we've seen many times. A 'driveby' poster comes here, posts something that is sure to generate responses and even though the initial poster remains for the most part, aloof (some disappear), we argue it amongst ourselves for pages and pages, until we're tired of arguing. I don't think it would have mattered what we said. If he'd wanted only posts that agreed or sympathized with him, why would he come to a pro-LDS forum and not realize that some would try to counter his criticisms?
Right. He got what he wanted and he left. However, if we are wise, we can use this for instruction to help us learn and grow and learn how to deal with people in Christ-like ways. That's what I've learned over the years here. I've learned more about taking people well from my families and successes here on this forum than any other place.

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shadow
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by shadow »

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: May 5th, 2017, 4:27 pm
NOWmormon wrote: May 4th, 2017, 8:22 pm I am thinking that this is not the correct venue for me and other members like me.

...At least a conversation has been started.
Maybe it will help users here bear each others burdens a little more.
Maybe it will eventually help you to welcome others who, like me, go to the temple with you, sit in general conference with you, home teach you, and ordain you.
I will look elsewhere.
I remember the words "Where can I turn for peace, where is my solace".
Obviously it is in Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.
and who does He reach out to?
Not the ninety and nine, which are safe, but the one.
And maybe "the one" is not lost, but searching for support, because the ninety and nine say "he has lost his testimony" and "Who cares?", like some of you told me.
The Sacrament prayer says we must keep the commandments which He has given us, so that we may have His spirit to be with us.
And what is the new commandment?--love one another.
Have you loved me?

Until we meet again, perhaps in other forums.
Adieu


Alma 60:36
...I seek not for power...I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God...And thus I close mine epistle.
Funny how you question Joseph Smith s character then leave the discussion with a quote from Alma... I think you are an active poster under different name trying to be a wise serpent / harmless dove lol if so u r just being a donkey, but if I'm wrong I apologise.
Reminds me of houseoforder, who used to have conversations with his other self and their wife. I'd call them a trio but there's more than 3 #-o

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Alaris
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by Alaris »

AI2.0 wrote: May 5th, 2017, 4:30 pm
Meili wrote: May 5th, 2017, 3:28 pm
shadow wrote: May 5th, 2017, 1:47 pm
Original_Intent wrote: May 4th, 2017, 3:10 pm My heart goes out to you NOWMormon, I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
He's not looking for any answers to any questions. He wants sympathy and justification for his feelings. When an adult comes running in like death is near because he has a little sliver yet refuses the advise of others on how to remove the sliver and he still keeps pouting, then you know you're not dealing with someone who is looking for a solution. Many here, including big, bad, mean Shadow, have offered good advise to him. He has no questions, he's trying to be a victim by claiming he's been deceived by the church because Josephs polygamy isn't taught at church. There's been no question from him so there's no answer to be offered.
A person doesn't have to all questions to be looking for answers.

I would say he was looking for reinforcement for his idea that he's been hurt by the church by recreating the scenario again. He comes, makes a controversial post on a forum on which the members clearly will disagree with his perspective, then exactly what you would expect happens and he leaves justified over again in his assessment of the members of the church. Not only has the church slighted him but so have the members of LDSFF. I wouldn't be surprised to find that he has done this on multiple forums.

I've done the same thing myself a few times. It gets tiring after a while. I expect Scott will eventually find more productive things to do.
It's a pattern that we've seen many times. A 'driveby' poster comes here, posts something that is sure to generate responses and even though the initial poster remains for the most part, aloof (some disappear), we argue it amongst ourselves for pages and pages, until we're tired of arguing. I don't think it would have mattered what we said. If he'd wanted only posts that agreed or sympathized with him, why would he come to a pro-LDS forum and not realize that some would try to counter his criticisms?
AI2.0 my friend,

One aspect of trolling I've seen in just about any forum I've joined and posted an initial thread is the trolls of that forum will instantly jump on the newbie and establish dominance. It's the strangest phenomenon. If you don't believe me go join any forum (automobile, hobby, religious [sadly]) and try to make some basic declaration of fact and watch the immediate replies that come in.

That said, I'm not calling you a troll (necessarily) but what you just described above sounds like justification for what I just described above. The trolls feel justified when someone new comes into their space (bridge) where they dwell and somehow that gives them license to extract a toll - a price - from the newbie. Hence trolls. The newbie is attacked immediately and has defend himself or herself. It happens everywhere. It is sadly a facet of humane nature (natural man) and not of God's nature.

Wouldn't it be better to report thusly?
AI3.0 wrote: May 5th, 2017, 4:30 pm A 'driveby' poster comes here, posts something that is sure to generate responses and even though the initial poster remains for the most part, aloof (some disappear), we then ensure we treat that newbie with Christlike love and charity because regardless as to whether they are a sincere truth seeker or a troll (haha) it is our responsibility to mourn with those that mourn and comfort those that are in need of comfort and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all places, including Internet forums.
Last edited by Alaris on May 5th, 2017, 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rensai
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by Rensai »

braingrunt wrote: May 5th, 2017, 8:36 am
Rensai wrote: May 4th, 2017, 6:49 pm ...

1) Believe the church version where Joseph is a liar who publicly denounces polygamy in the strongest terms, even swearing under oath that he is not doing it, but secretly is lying, marrying other women behind his wifes back, etc. Not only that, but somehow he's doing it on God's orders as a prophet in good standing, even though God cannot lie; and to most reasonable people telling your servant to lie would be the same as if you had lied yourself. My tolerance for cognitive dissonance isn't high enough for this option.
....
The Old Testament prophets in good standing resolve this problem for you; or if not there's some cognitive dissonance in your cognitive dissonance.
Come on really? You see them as exactly the same? Did the OT prophets publicly denounce polygamy and lie about practicing it? Did they sneak around marrying women behind their wives' backs? I'll admit I have a hard time understanding why God allowed it at all, if he actually did, we can't be sure about everything in the bible, we know its been tampered with. I think there may be more to those OT stories, but either way, the bigger problems with Joseph practicing it aren't about the polygamy directly, its the lying, sneaking, dishonoring his wife by doing it behind her back without permission, etc. Real prophets don't do that stuff. They act with honor, honesty, and integrity, they will make mistakes and sin once in a while, but they should be in tune with the spirit and understand the problem and repent fairly quickly. D&C shows Joseph did that numerous times, but what the church ascribes to Joseph goes way beyond that. They would have us believe he intentionally lied and snuck around meeting women behind emma's back for years.

Another difference is the change in the law. The laws have changed since OT times. When Christ came, he gave us higher laws and said, whoever looks on another woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart. Pretty hard to go looking for extra wives without breaking that higher law.

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shadow
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by shadow »

Lots of histories show Emma knew about Joseph's polygamy.

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Rensai
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by Rensai »

shadow wrote: May 5th, 2017, 9:45 pm Lots of histories show Emma knew about Joseph's polygamy.
Well, RLDS records say Emma and her children all spoke on several occasions and say that Emma knew nothing about Joseph practicing it, and doesn't believe he did practice it. Even the church's version of history says Joseph hid his polygamy from her for a time I believe.
http://www.defendingjoseph.com/2013/12/ ... ygamy.html

I realize the records are conflicting, but one side or the other is lying. If we say its Joseph, and that he lied for years, preaching against polygamy while secretly practicing it then how can we really expect anyone to believe he was a real prophet? It goes directly against God's teachings to lie and even more so to do it while claiming to speak as his prophet. And how can we claim we believe Joseph was a real prophet but then ignore his testimony against polygamy in favor of BY and the other polygamists?

I don't claim to know anything for certain about what happened. I just believe Joseph was a real prophet and that the stories about his polygamy do not jive with the kind of character I believe he had. I also do not believe God would endorse and give revelation to someone who is hiding and lying about parts of his doctrine. And what about the original section 101 that Joseph gave, later removed by BY, that clearly defined marriage as 1 man and 1 woman? Why would God have him put that into the D&C with polygamy about to come forth. That seems confusing to say the least.

Today in the church we have lessons on Porn about every other month and how bad it is because it can hurt wives and break up families. Yet polygamy hurt wives and families way more. I've read the accounts about the pain that it caused. I'm supposed to believe God condemns porn but condones polygamy?

Further, BY also taught that it was ok for women to abandon their husband and children and upgrade to a polygamous marriage to someone with "higher" priesthood authority, which Brigham used at least once I know of to steal another mans wife.
https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Primary_sources/Brigham_Young/8_October_1861_discourse_on_plural_marriage wrote: "The second way in which a wife can be separated from her husband while he continues to be faithful to his God and his priesthood I have not revealed except to a few persons in this church, and a few have received it from Joseph the Prophet as well as myself. If a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her, he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is. In either of these ways of separation you can discover there is no need for a bill of divorcement. (Brigham Young, 1861 discourse on plural marriage)


Does that seem right? It sure seems wrong to me. How can anyone really think this is good or that it came from God? That isn't in line with what the scriptures teach on marriage.

Adam had 1 wife, Noah had 1 wife, if there was ever a time to bring in polygamy to raise up seed to the lord, it was those 2 times.

How about the statement in section 132 that anyone who doesn't practice polygamy is damned? Sure, the church excuses us all now, but even in the days of polygamy it was never more than a fraction of the members who practiced it if I recall right. Are all the rest of the early saints damned then? How about section 132 calling Isaac a polygamist when the bible clearly shows he only had 1 wife? It also says God commanded them all in polygamy, yet again, the bible says otherwise. Abraham's polygamy was Sarah's idea, Isaac didn't do it, Jacob was tricked into it by his crappy father in law. Not once does the bible claim God commanded it.

I could go on, but I hope I've made the point. Polygamy is messy. Much of what we're told about it doesn't jive with scripture and it does not look like good fruit to me. I think it makes much more sense to take Joseph at his word and believe him over BY.

That said, If the church's explanation works for you, that's fine, but I find it dissatisfying with too many problems. I've found an explanation that works for me and I just wanted to make sure Scott knew it was an option; that there is some pretty good evidence to support the idea that Joseph wasn't lying. It saddens me to see people giving up on the gospel over this. Whatever we all choose to believe on polygamy, I hope we can at least all agree that Joseph was a real prophet, the BoM and the gospel are true, and we need to help each other endure through these confusing, evil times we live in. I don't want to see anyone give up on the gospel and turn their back on Christ over this issue. I hope everyone can find an explanation that works for them or at least suspend judgement and trust that God will give us some clarity when/if it we really need it.

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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by Robin Hood »

Meili wrote: May 4th, 2017, 1:27 pm
DesertWonderer wrote: May 4th, 2017, 10:48 am
NOWmormon wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 9:00 pm I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.
Wow.
Yeah. Imagine coming to LDSFF looking for a safe place . . .
This "safe place" nonsense seems to be in vogue at the moment. I remember reading, for example, that university campuses provided safe places for their entitled millenial students following Trumps victory.
What's wrong with people!

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Rose Garden
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by Rose Garden »

Robin Hood wrote: May 6th, 2017, 1:53 am
Meili wrote: May 4th, 2017, 1:27 pm
DesertWonderer wrote: May 4th, 2017, 10:48 am
NOWmormon wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 9:00 pm I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.
Wow.
Yeah. Imagine coming to LDSFF looking for a safe place . . .
This "safe place" nonsense seems to be in vogue at the moment. I remember reading, for example, that university campuses provided safe places for their entitled millenial students following Trumps victory.
What's wrong with people!
There is only one safe place and that is living in accord with righteousness.

ebenezerarise
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by ebenezerarise »

Rensai wrote: May 6th, 2017, 1:42 am I don't claim to know anything for certain about what happened. I just believe Joseph was a real prophet and that the stories about his polygamy do not jive with the kind of character I believe he had. I also do not believe God would endorse and give revelation to someone who is hiding and lying about parts of his doctrine. And what about the original section 101 that Joseph gave, later removed by BY, that clearly defined marriage as 1 man and 1 woman? Why would God have him put that into the D&C with polygamy about to come forth. That seems confusing to say the least.
Here we go again. A selection historian you are -- picking and choosing which part of history to believe so that it fits your view of things.

And the rest of us are left to defend what actually happened.

You write as if polygamy was only about sex, the lurid, animalistic, passionate side of human existence.

Here's a news flash for you. People didn't need any kind of marriage to validate their adultery.

Have you EVER considered that Joseph -- who DID practice plural marriage in word and deed -- was following a commandment?

Put your head around that. It was not unlike Nephi being commanded to kill Laban -- or countless other times in the scriptures where the Lord gave a seemingly contrary command.

Emma was no fool and Emma did not later claim she knew nothing about it. She knew EVERYTHING about it.

You need to face this. Honestly. And if you have a problem with it you need to do what Joseph did and wrestle with the Lord about it.

braingrunt
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Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by braingrunt »

Rensai wrote: May 5th, 2017, 9:01 pm
braingrunt wrote: May 5th, 2017, 8:36 am
Rensai wrote: May 4th, 2017, 6:49 pm ...

1) Believe the church version where Joseph is a liar who publicly denounces polygamy in the strongest terms, even swearing under oath that he is not doing it, but secretly is lying, marrying other women behind his wifes back, etc. Not only that, but somehow he's doing it on God's orders as a prophet in good standing, even though God cannot lie; and to most reasonable people telling your servant to lie would be the same as if you had lied yourself. My tolerance for cognitive dissonance isn't high enough for this option.
....
The Old Testament prophets in good standing resolve this problem for you; or if not there's some cognitive dissonance in your cognitive dissonance.
Come on really? You see them as exactly the same? Did the OT prophets publicly denounce polygamy and lie about practicing it? Did they sneak around marrying women behind their wives' backs? I'll admit I have a hard time understanding why God allowed it at all, if he actually did, we can't be sure about everything in the bible, we know its been tampered with. I think there may be more to those OT stories, but either way, the bigger problems with Joseph practicing it aren't about the polygamy directly, its the lying, sneaking, dishonoring his wife by doing it behind her back without permission, etc. Real prophets don't do that stuff. They act with honor, honesty, and integrity, they will make mistakes and sin once in a while, but they should be in tune with the spirit and understand the problem and repent fairly quickly. D&C shows Joseph did that numerous times, but what the church ascribes to Joseph goes way beyond that. They would have us believe he intentionally lied and snuck around meeting women behind emma's back for years.

Another difference is the change in the law. The laws have changed since OT times. When Christ came, he gave us higher laws and said, whoever looks on another woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart. Pretty hard to go looking for extra wives without breaking that higher law.
No, I was talking about stories where they lied, deceived, sometimes with the apparent condoning by God; there are multiple stories to pick from which make it hard to wave away.

So if you can't accept the idea that a prophet might lie you have a problem.
Last edited by braingrunt on May 6th, 2017, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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David13
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7072
Location: Utah

Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by David13 »

AI2.0 wrote: May 5th, 2017, 1:39 pm
NOWmormon wrote: May 4th, 2017, 8:22 pm I am thinking that this is not the correct venue for me and other members like me.

...At least a conversation has been started.
Maybe it will help users here bear each others burdens a little more.
Maybe it will eventually help you to welcome others who, like me, go to the temple with you, sit in general conference with you, home teach you, and ordain you.
I will look elsewhere.
I remember the words "Where can I turn for peace, where is my solace".
Obviously it is in Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.
and who does He reach out to?
Not the ninety and nine, which are safe, but the one.
And maybe "the one" is not lost, but searching for support, because the ninety and nine say "he has lost his testimony" and "Who cares?", like some of you told me.
The Sacrament prayer says we must keep the commandments which He has given us, so that we may have His spirit to be with us.
And what is the new commandment?--love one another.
Have you loved me?

Until we meet again, perhaps in other forums.
Adieu


Alma 60:36
...I seek not for power...I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God...And thus I close mine epistle.
"Scott", if you are truly sincere, then you'll have no trouble sitting in church, the temple, General Conference or anywhere else among your fellow saints. And if you are sincere, you will recognize the spirit prompting you to repent and humble yourself, seek the guidance of the Lord and be patient. Answers for you will come, in the Lord's time, as he does desire to 'try' our faith. That's how faith is strengthened. It must be tried and tested, exercised.

You might think we are defensive and wary, but there's good reason. Your thread showed how easy it is to throw a 'bone' into the LDSFF forum and then watch the posters tear each other apart over it. You can't do that at Reddit or Mormondiscussions, but we are a very diverse group, many are ex LDS, some are still members, but not active, some have followed after break off sects and some are very active and believing. We're a stew pot ready to boil over if a little more heat is added to the mix.

It's just too easy to start a squabble when you have such a varied group...and there's no question some on the internet consider that a form of entertainment.

Are you going to deny that some people will pay good money to see a good fight? Are you going to deny that?
Don't get me wrong. I watched some fights on tv when I was a kid. But I never paid money, any money to see any fight, good or bad.
Thank you
dc

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David13
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Location: Utah

Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by David13 »

ebenezerarise wrote: May 6th, 2017, 9:09 am
Rensai wrote: May 6th, 2017, 1:42 am I don't claim to know anything for certain about what happened. I just believe Joseph was a real prophet and that the stories about his polygamy do not jive with the kind of character I believe he had. I also do not believe God would endorse and give revelation to someone who is hiding and lying about parts of his doctrine. And what about the original section 101 that Joseph gave, later removed by BY, that clearly defined marriage as 1 man and 1 woman? Why would God have him put that into the D&C with polygamy about to come forth. That seems confusing to say the least.
Here we go again. A selection historian you are -- picking and choosing which part of history to believe so that it fits your view of things.

And the rest of us are left to defend what actually happened.

You write as if polygamy was only about sex, the lurid, animalistic, passionate side of human existence.

Here's a news flash for you. People didn't need any kind of marriage to validate their adultery.

Have you EVER considered that Joseph -- who DID practice plural marriage in word and deed -- was following a commandment?

Put your head around that. It was not unlike Nephi being commanded to kill Laban -- or countless other times in the scriptures where the Lord gave a seemingly contrary command.

Emma was no fool and Emma did not later claim she knew nothing about it. She knew EVERYTHING about it.

You need to face this. Honestly. And if you have a problem with it you need to do what Joseph did and wrestle with the Lord about it.

When I was a kid in the 1950s in Michigan, there was no LDS church around at all. It was all in Utah.
But there was no one who didn't know about the Mormons in Utah and their polygamy. It was said they had it. It was said no, they no longer did that, and the federal government had stopped it. It was said some still did it and some had never done it. But the bottom line that was talked about back then was ... that it didn't matter. Because it was in the bible.
So all this moaning and groaning one way or another is amazing to me. And unnecessary.
Just this week I heard it explained, that there is a difference between marriage and sealing.
dc

eddie
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2405

Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by eddie »

David13 wrote: May 6th, 2017, 9:34 am
ebenezerarise wrote: May 6th, 2017, 9:09 am
Rensai wrote: May 6th, 2017, 1:42 am I don't claim to know anything for certain about what happened. I just believe Joseph was a real prophet and that the stories about his polygamy do not jive with the kind of character I believe he had. I also do not believe God would endorse and give revelation to someone who is hiding and lying about parts of his doctrine. And what about the original section 101 that Joseph gave, later removed by BY, that clearly defined marriage as 1 man and 1 woman? Why would God have him put that into the D&C with polygamy about to come forth. That seems confusing to say the least.
Here we go again. A selection historian you are -- picking and choosing which part of history to believe so that it fits your view of things.

And the rest of us are left to defend what actually happened.

You write as if polygamy was only about sex, the lurid, animalistic, passionate side of human existence.

Here's a news flash for you. People didn't need any kind of marriage to validate their adultery.

Have you EVER considered that Joseph -- who DID practice plural marriage in word and deed -- was following a commandment?

Put your head around that. It was not unlike Nephi being commanded to kill Laban -- or countless other times in the scriptures where the Lord gave a seemingly contrary command.

Emma was no fool and Emma did not later claim she knew nothing about it. She knew EVERYTHING about it.

You need to face this. Honestly. And if you have a problem with it you need to do what Joseph did and wrestle with the Lord about it.

When I was a kid in the 1950s in Michigan, there was no LDS church around at all. It was all in Utah.
But there was no one who didn't know about the Mormons in Utah and their polygamy. It was said they had it. It was said no, they no longer did that, and the federal government had stopped it. It was said some still did it and some had never done it. But the bottom line that was talked about back then was ... that it didn't matter. Because it was in the bible.
So all this moaning and groaning one way or another is amazing to me. And unnecessary.
Just this week I heard it explained, that there is a difference between marriage and sealing.
dc
I love converts, they don't take the gospel for granted, sometimes we lifetime members do. I am so happy that you have the Gospel ofJesus Christ!

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shadow
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Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by shadow »

Rensai wrote: May 6th, 2017, 1:42 am I hope everyone can find an explanation that works for them...
That results in a weak foundation that will crumble when faced with the truth. When we base our beliefs from false ideas that are contrary to the truth, a crisis is in the making.
There's only one explanation for Joseph's polygamy- God commanded it and Joseph obeyed.

braingrunt
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2042

Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by braingrunt »

And Rensai, as I've said on other occasions to others, your explanation leaves Joseph profoundly unprophetic about the church. Thats a bigger problem than deception which at least has some precedence.

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AI2.0
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3917

Re: From Scott - the NOWmormon

Post by AI2.0 »

David13 wrote: May 6th, 2017, 9:27 am
AI2.0 wrote: May 5th, 2017, 1:39 pm
NOWmormon wrote: May 4th, 2017, 8:22 pm I am thinking that this is not the correct venue for me and other members like me.

...At least a conversation has been started.
Maybe it will help users here bear each others burdens a little more.
Maybe it will eventually help you to welcome others who, like me, go to the temple with you, sit in general conference with you, home teach you, and ordain you.
I will look elsewhere.
I remember the words "Where can I turn for peace, where is my solace".
Obviously it is in Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.
and who does He reach out to?
Not the ninety and nine, which are safe, but the one.
And maybe "the one" is not lost, but searching for support, because the ninety and nine say "he has lost his testimony" and "Who cares?", like some of you told me.
The Sacrament prayer says we must keep the commandments which He has given us, so that we may have His spirit to be with us.
And what is the new commandment?--love one another.
Have you loved me?

Until we meet again, perhaps in other forums.
Adieu


Alma 60:36
...I seek not for power...I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God...And thus I close mine epistle.
"Scott", if you are truly sincere, then you'll have no trouble sitting in church, the temple, General Conference or anywhere else among your fellow saints. And if you are sincere, you will recognize the spirit prompting you to repent and humble yourself, seek the guidance of the Lord and be patient. Answers for you will come, in the Lord's time, as he does desire to 'try' our faith. That's how faith is strengthened. It must be tried and tested, exercised.

You might think we are defensive and wary, but there's good reason. Your thread showed how easy it is to throw a 'bone' into the LDSFF forum and then watch the posters tear each other apart over it. You can't do that at Reddit or Mormondiscussions, but we are a very diverse group, many are ex LDS, some are still members, but not active, some have followed after break off sects and some are very active and believing. We're a stew pot ready to boil over if a little more heat is added to the mix.

It's just too easy to start a squabble when you have such a varied group...and there's no question some on the internet consider that a form of entertainment.

Are you going to deny that some people will pay good money to see a good fight? Are you going to deny that?
Don't get me wrong. I watched some fights on tv when I was a kid. But I never paid money, any money to see any fight, good or bad.
Thank you
dc
Why would I deny it? It's all too true, some people love to see others fight, quarrel, attack, put down. If you've been on forums long enough, you become aware of this part of some people's character. While I admit it's not interesting if we all agree, I enjoy threads where we can discuss respectfully--I learn a lot from reading other points of view. I wasn't blaming Scott entirely, but he was the catalyst. Unless you think someone here on the forum is using a sock puppet to start the fight. I'm aware that some members use more than one account, but I don't think that's the case in this instance.

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