From Scott - the NOWmormon

[NOWmormon]

I am thinking that this is not the correct venue for me and other members like me.

...At least a conversation has been started.
Maybe it will help users here bear each others burdens a little more.
Maybe it will eventually help you to welcome others who, like me, go to the temple with you, sit in general conference with you, home teach you, and ordain you.
I will look elsewhere.
I remember the words "Where can I turn for peace, where is my solace".
Obviously it is in Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.
and who does He reach out to?
Not the ninety and nine, which are safe, but the one.
And maybe "the one" is not lost, but searching for support, because the ninety and nine say "he has lost his testimony" and "Who cares?", like some of you told me.
The Sacrament prayer says we must keep the commandments which He has given us, so that we may have His spirit to be with us.
And what is the new commandment?--love one another.
Have you loved me?

Until we meet again, perhaps in other forums.
Adieu


Alma 60:36
...I seek not for power...I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God...And thus I close mine epistle.

[shadow]

Since I am only able to visit this sight in the evening, you will only see posts/replies from me once a day.

I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.

Please use my posts to learn what other members like me are feeling. Be thou humble.

Please accept this communication for what it is:
It is from me; A child of God, reaching out to you. Anticipating that you will demonstrate empathetic compassion for me individually, just as Jesus Christ would do.

Full disclosure--
I am finding my way in all of this.
I post to ldsfreedomforum, reddit (mormon/exmormon), mormondiscussions and newordermormon.

Consider me an investigator of online forums.

Do you also treat others, including church leaders, the same way you want to be treated by demonstrating empathetic compassion? If so, in what ways? I ask because from your other posts you seem to be extremely concerned about... you. Almost to the point of being a narcissist.
Are you being honest in your proclamations​, all of them, of who you are?

[h_p]

I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.
Full disclosure--
I am finding my way in all of this.

Scott, my recommendation in this is to find a better venue for seeking answers and healing. You won't find it here on this site. For one, some (not all) can be very judgmental and defensive because there's been so much antagonism from others towards the church. But most importantly, an internet forum is just too impersonal for someone to really relate and understand, I think.

The feelings you are having are way too personal to share with unsympathetic strangers--even people you consider close friends may give you the cold shoulder and blame you. Some may even feel threatened by your questions. My whole family is currently going through what you're experiencing, and this is what we've seen. In fact, one of my siblings is so angry at our sister for leaving that she won't even talk to her now. Some people's world-view just gets threatened by people leaving the church or questioning it, and they take it personally.

For what my advice is worth, try to take this as an opportunity to prove your loyalty to Christ. You may not find any answers any time soon, but I think if you can focus more on your relationship to Christ than your relationship to the church, you'll be way better off than you were before. Humility and loyalty to Christ will get you through this. Believe me, I know it's not easy, just don't let the unsympathetic people here get you down.

[NOWmormon]

.

[DesertWonderer]

I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.

Wow.

[braingrunt]

Not to minimize your thoughts and feelings, but I suspect they are old hat to most of us here. I'd take HP's advice and give your feelings a rest. Find out which parts of your identity you're going to protect and do it, or your feelings might just trash more than you mean to. I for one am not interested in participating in that.

I think exmo might like to help there though.

[ajax]

Stick around NOWmormon, it's fun watching shadow hyperventilate.

[shadow]

Stick around NOWmormon, it's fun watching shadow hyperventilate.

hyperventilation-hyperventilation-demotivational-poster-1266699817.jpg (21.86 KiB) Viewed 1969 times

[ajax]

Now that's a hyperventilation I can appreciate.

[nightlight]

I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.
Full disclosure--
I am finding my way in all of this.

Scott, my recommendation in this is to find a better venue for seeking answers and healing. You won't find it here on this site. For one, some (not all) can be very judgmental and defensive because there's been so much antagonism from others towards the church. But most importantly, an internet forum is just too impersonal for someone to really relate and understand, I think.

The feelings you are having are way too personal to share with unsympathetic strangers--even people you consider close friends may give you the cold shoulder and blame you. Some may even feel threatened by your questions. My whole family is currently going through what you're experiencing, and this is what we've seen. In fact, one of my siblings is so angry at our sister for leaving that she won't even talk to her now. Some people's world-view just gets threatened by people leaving the church or questioning it, and they take it personally.

For what my advice is worth, try to take this as an opportunity to prove your loyalty to Christ. You may not find any answers any time soon, but I think if you can focus more on your relationship to Christ than your relationship to the church, you'll be way better off than you were before. Humility and loyalty to Christ will get you through this. Believe me, I know it's not easy, just don't let the unsympathetic people here get you down.

Considering this IS CHRISTS CHURCH your advice is flawed. If he like so many others go that route they will be just someone who believes in Jesus but doesn't follow his order or in other words doesn't take part in the fullness of his work i.e. everyone who is not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . His church and his name are two sides​ of the same coin.

[Mark]

Since I am only able to visit this sight in the evening, you will only see posts/replies from me once a day.

I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.

Please use my posts to learn what other members like me are feeling. Be thou humble.

Please accept this communication for what it is:
It is from me; A child of God, reaching out to you. Anticipating that you will demonstrate empathetic compassion for me individually, just as Jesus Christ would do.

Full disclosure--
I am finding my way in all of this.
I post to ldsfreedomforum, reddit (mormon/exmormon), mormondiscussions and newordermormon.

Consider me an investigator of online forums.

Scott these are topics and subjects that have caused great concern among some in my immediate family including my companion. Might I recommend a wonderful resource for you. It is a book written by Terryl and Fiona Givens titled "The Crucible of Doubt: Reflections on the Quest for Faith". Bro and Sis. Givens do a wonderful job in exploring many of these and other concerns that can often cause heartache and disappointment among some in the LDS community. I wholeheartedly endorse their book. They do a wonderful job in exploring this topic in depth in a spirit of love and charity. You can get it on your device for a reduced price. I would be happy to help Cover the cost if finances are tight.

Mark

[Rose Garden]

I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.

Wow.

Yeah. Imagine coming to LDSFF looking for a safe place . . .

[h_p]

Considering this IS CHRISTS CHURCH your advice is flawed. If he like so many others go that route they will be just someone who believes in Jesus but don't follow his order or in other words don't take part in the fullness of his work i.e. everyone who is not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . His church and his name are two side of the same coin.

Whatever works best for you. I'm not here to argue, though I didn't recommend that he leave the church. For me, when I'm betrayed by leaders, whether intentionally or not, I look to Christ. It's helped me, and several other people I know, get through a lot of things. And I would hope that other people will not blame God for the things I do wrong.

[e-eye2.0]

The sad part of that list of where you are turning for answers is that this is probably the safest.

When I am looking for spiritual pick me up - I turn to the scriptures and current prophets.
When I am looking for a good laugh - I turn on the tv and watch a sitcom
If my car has a problem I talk to a mechanic who knows what they are doing



If I were looking for truth and answers to my questions in regards to faith - I wouldn't be going to the websites that you are going to. The places you are going are most likely going to drag you down spiritually so either you are at the point where you are just looking for people to confirm your change in faith or somehow you have got caught up in some serious faith damaging locations.

There is no reason to journey alone but most of what you are looking for can be helped by prayer, scripture study, temple attendance and obedience. The trial of faith may take some time and the Lord will test you but don't forget what you knew was true and still is. Just because your paradigm on how you view history has changed doesn't mean the spirit that confirmed the truthfulness of the gospel has changed. Truth is truth and a foggy history of the past doesn't change the truth that exists and is eternal. Hang in there and be careful where you seek your answers.

[nightlight]

Considering this IS CHRISTS CHURCH your advice is flawed. If he like so many others go that route they will be just someone who believes in Jesus but don't follow his order or in other words don't take part in the fullness of his work i.e. everyone who is not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . His church and his name are two side of the same coin.

Whatever works best for you. I'm not here to argue, though I didn't recommend that he leave the church. For me, when I'm betrayed by leaders, whether intentionally or not, I look to Christ. It's helped me, and several other people I know, get through a lot of things. And I would hope that other people will not blame God for the things I do wrong.

But you obviously have a testimony that this church is Christ's true church. It's one thing to be hurt by a leader in the church but to doubt the church is true because of leader hurt you or disappointed you it's just a lack of faith and you listening to the promptings of Satan. Our feelings come from one of two places either from God or from Satan. Anything that draws us away from the church comes from Satan.

[nightlight]

Since I am only able to visit this sight in the evening, you will only see posts/replies from me once a day.

I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.

Please use my posts to learn what other members like me are feeling. Be thou humble.

Please accept this communication for what it is:
It is from me; A child of God, reaching out to you. Anticipating that you will demonstrate empathetic compassion for me individually, just as Jesus Christ would do.

Full disclosure--
I am finding my way in all of this.
I post to ldsfreedomforum, reddit (mormon/exmormon), mormondiscussions and newordermormon.

Consider me an investigator of online forums.

Scott if you're hurt feelings are drawing you away from the restored gospel of Jesus Christ consider the source of your feelings.

[Spaced_Out]

The sad part of that list of where you are turning for answers is that this is probably the safest.

When I am looking for spiritual pick me up - I turn to the scriptures and current prophets.
When I am looking for a good laugh - I turn on the tv and watch a sitcom
If my car has a problem I talk to a mechanic who knows what they are doing

If I were looking for truth and answers to my questions in regards to faith - I wouldn't be going to the websites that you are going to. The places you are going are most likely going to drag you down spiritually so either you are at the point where you are just looking for people to confirm your change in faith or somehow you have got caught up in some serious faith damaging locations.

There is no reason to journey alone but most of what you are looking for can be helped by prayer, scripture study, temple attendance and obedience. The trial of faith may take some time and the Lord will test you but don't forget what you knew was true and still is. Just because your paradigm on how you view history has changed doesn't mean the spirit that confirmed the truthfulness of the gospel has changed. Truth is truth and a foggy history of the past doesn't change the truth that exists and is eternal. Hang in there and be careful where you seek your answers.

Yes an honest seeker of the truth turns to God in fasting and prayer, to Him who gives liberally. The only question to be asked is the BoM true, was JS a prophet, is the LDS church the only true church. What happened in Church history is God's problem.
I suggest you go on Sunday to other churches and see if you can find more truth and understanding of the purpose of life there. The answer is obvious..

What is this nonsense about safe spaces or feeling safe, there is no such thing. A persons feelings can never be safe till one goes to the right source for truth.

[Original_Intent]

I can relate to the OP somewhat.
I don't have any trial of faith with the gospel, but I do have my struggles with aspects of the corporation. This past weekend I spoke to my wife and sons about it. Not that I want to dampen their testimony, but to let them know I'm having a struggle and that I could use their thoughts and prayers.

I think a lot of the response that NOW got in his first thread were pretty sad, I really appreciated Mark's thoughtful response above. Shadow, while I appreciate a lot of his contributions to this forum, I feel his responses above and in the other thread, are all too characteristic of many "holier than thou" LDS that quite frankly has been a major factor in my struggles.

I know, I know, going to church to be around perfect people is like going to the hospital to be around healthy people. I get it. But there are so many, particularly the uber pro-military crowd, that frankly I don;t know how to help and they sure don't help me. I know it's not the right answer, but it is where I am right now. My heart goes out to you NOWMormon, I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

[Finrock]

There are safe places to share your feelings openly and without fearing ridicule, judgment, mocking, and the general nastiness that exist in the world. Those places should exist within a group of those who call themselves disciples of Jesus Christ or Latter-day Saints. When you see a person unloading on you, accusing you, and railing on you, then you must see that person for who and what they are. All such actions come from a place of insecurity within these individuals. People who mock, ridicule, belittle, threaten, or try to put you down and tear you open are individuals who have strong negative core beliefs about themselves. Like the rest of us, they are sick except they don't know it yet. It is through these actions and through this behavior that they find some satisfaction in life and it helps them to feel better about themselves. You should have compassion on them and recognize that they are in need of the Savior just as you and I are. All of us need love and those who are the most belligerent, judgmental, or unkind generally need the most love.

-Finrock

[h_p]

Well said, Finrock.

[Rensai]

Hi Scott,

I understand why you feel betrayed by the church. Try to keep in mind that the church and gospel are not the same thing. The gospel is the word of God and it is perfect (so long as we have the correct translation), but the church is just a collection of people, all sinners, all making mistakes, brought together by a set of common beliefs. We're supposed to be helping support and build up each other's testimonies, but sometimes people can tear each other down, decide to hide things because they think they know better, etc. I guess I'm just trying to say, don't disregard the gospel because of mistakes from the church. Christ didn't lie or hide things from you, it was just the mistakes of men.

I've got 2 siblings going through much the same thing as you; a sister and a brother. Both started with the CES letter and one of their biggest problems with it was the stuff about Joseph Smith's polygamy. You are definitely not alone. I think the church has a big problem here. Joseph and the BoM are what the church is built on, yet their own narrative makes him look like an adulterer, a liar, and very nearly a pedophile as well. That doesn't work for many of the members anymore, not when all the little details that they used to gloss over have now come out into the open.

Anyway, back to my family. When they asked me to read that CES letter, it didn't have the same effect on me as it did on them. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and I think its because I study my scriptures daily, while they have not studied for years. I'm not saying you aren't studying, but if you aren't, then you should, daily scripture reading is the thing I think that will help you the most to hold onto your testimony. With my sister, she hasn't read the BoM since seminary in highschool, which was about 10 years ago for her. So when she learned about Joseph's polygamy and other things in that letter she completely believed it and rejected Joseph, the BoM, and everything else. Her testimony was too centered on the Church instead of the scriptures/gospel.

For me it was different, I read daily and I completely believe the scriptures Joseph gave us in the BoM, pearl of great price and D&C are real. I approached Joseph's polygamy and other church issues from a completely different viewpoint because of that. I start with believing he's a prophet and the scriptures are true. When I look at these stories about bad things Joseph supposedly did, like polygamy, I'm already doubting the stories, thinking either they are not true or there's more to the story than we know because a real prophet, like Joseph, wouldn't be doing something that bad and still be in good standing with God.

As for the polygamy issue itself, there is actually plenty of evidence to call the church's story into doubt. Joseph never publicly endorsed it, and the idea that a real prophet (which he was), would be publicly denouncing it, calling it adultery, while secretly practicing it makes no sense to me. Joseph proclaimed the restored gospel boldly, even when greatly persecuted, so why would he stop with polygamy if it really came from him? For example, just a month before he died he said:

Joseph declared:

Another indictment has been got up against me [the polygamy indictment]. It appears a holy prophet [William Law] has arisen up, and he has testified against me [causing the polygamy indictment to be brought forth].... God knows, then, that the charges against me are false.

I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.

This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this.... William Law ... swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they [the alleged wives] are—whether it will be a curse or blessing to me....

A man asked me whether the commandment [revelation] was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery.... Wilson Law [William's brother] also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery.... I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for truth's sake. I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves.... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.

I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago [when charged with polygamy shortly after his marriage to Emma Hale]; and I can prove them all perjurers. (LDS History of the Church 6:410–411; italics added)

So Joseph denied it and denounced it, as did Emma her whole life. For me that is enough alone because I believe he was a real prophet, but there is a ton more evidence to support this idea, way more than I can get into here. You might take a look at http://restorationbookstore.org/jsfp-index.htm or http://www.defendingjoseph.com/. Even if you decide to accept what the church says, you should at least be able to see that the history is pretty murky, the church was under huge pressure, many persecutions, lying from many people on all sides, etc. Its almost impossible to get the full, true story from the records. At the very least, if you believe in the BoM, you should be willing to suspend judgement on that issue and trust in your faith in Christ. If Joseph did anything wrong, he will answer for it and if it was right like the church says, then it will be made clear later.

I hope you'll consider these things and I'll pray that you can get some guidance from the holy ghost and hold to the gospel.

[nightlight]

Since I am only able to visit this sight in the evening, you will only see posts/replies from me once a day.

I am willing to open my heart and express my feelings as long as I feel safe.

Please use my posts to learn what other members like me are feeling. Be thou humble.

Please accept this communication for what it is:
It is from me; A child of God, reaching out to you. Anticipating that you will demonstrate empathetic compassion for me individually, just as Jesus Christ would do.

Full disclosure--
I am finding my way in all of this.
I post to ldsfreedomforum, reddit (mormon/exmormon), mormondiscussions and newordermormon.

Consider me an investigator of online forums.

Scott, the best advice I can give you is the same advice Thomas S Monson gave during general conference, read The Book Of Mormon. It's the keystone of our religion, and has changed my heart and mind . The fact that you've been a member of the church for half a century means it also had a life long effect on you, and if the BOM as had such wonderful awesome power in bringing millions of lives to the knowledge that Jesus Christ is our savior can only mean that the man who translated it was appointed by Christ to do so and was a prophet of God, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of Christ

[Original_Intent]

If Joseph was not polygamous, that double damns Brigham, though. He claimed he got the teaching from Joseph.

Clearly Sum Ting Wong here...

[gclayjr]

What a bunch of Snowflakes!

If it is so tender that your gonna need a hankie if somebody doesn't reply gently enough to your baring of your soul, then maybe the Internet isn't the place to do it!

I'm not endorsing savagely insulting someone, however, this is a place for adults, and one should act like one.

Regards,

George Clay

[Rensai]

If Joseph was not polygamous, that double damns Brigham, though. He claimed he got the teaching from Joseph.

Clearly Sum Ting Wong here...

That's true, but I'll take Joseph and his word over Brigham and the rest any day. The way I see it there is really only 4 choices.

1) Believe the church version where Joseph is a liar who publicly denounces polygamy in the strongest terms, even swearing under oath that he is not doing it, but secretly is lying, marrying other women behind his wifes back, etc. Not only that, but somehow he's doing it on God's orders as a prophet in good standing, even though God cannot lie; and to most reasonable people telling your servant to lie would be the same as if you had lied yourself. My tolerance for cognitive dissonance isn't high enough for this option.

2) Believe Joseph told the truth and had nothing to do with polygamy. His character remains good, his works are good, and the only downside is you have to reject Brigham young and the other polygamist leaders, which the church has done on several occasions anyway. Look at the adam god theory, blood atonement, priesthood for the blacks, etc. I like this option best because I don't like the idea that God was endorsing Joseph as his prophet, giving him revelations and stuff all while he's lying and secretly marrying women behind Emma's back. I just can't see God doing anything like that. I also get to keep my respect for Joseph intact.

3) Look at the churches own records and statements and conclude Joseph is a fraud and a scoundrel like Warren Jeffs or something like that and then quit the church. Sadly, I think many are taking this option without realizing there are even any alternatives to believing Joseph practiced polygamy in such a dishonest way.

4) Realize the idea Joseph could both simultaneously lie while practicing polygamy and remain a good prophet is wrong, but recognize that we no doubt do not have all the facts about the those early days in the church and suspend judgement or ignore the issue. I think many people are in this kind of a mode, but when confronted by someone with all the damning details, many here sadly end up going with option 3, at least that's what I've seen as my sister has gone on a crusade to "enlighten" everyone about Joseph and his supposed polygamy.


All of my family was raised in the church in Idaho and Utah and have been members our whole lives, yet right now my family split on this and its a pretty hotly debated topic. We've got 1 that has already quit the church, 1 that says he will soon, 3 of us choosing to take Joseph at his word, 3 who believe in the Church's story and try to ignore the problems with it, and 1 i'm not sure about, probably suspending judgement as best I can tell. I also know a few others struggling with this. This is a problem! I really don't get all the unkind responses Scott is getting. I don't think that is helpful at all.