Are you a NOW mormon?

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NOWmormon
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Posts: 17

Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by NOWmormon »

My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple women
-As young as 14 years old
-Had sexual relations with some of them
-While some were already married to other men
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

I suffer mormon wounds.

I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.

Are you a NOW mormon?
---------------------------------------


I am thinking that this is not the correct venue for me and other members like me.

...At least a conversation has been started.
Maybe it will help users here bear each others burdens a little more.
Maybe it will eventually help you to welcome others who, like me, go to the temple with you, sit in general conference with you, home teach you, and ordain you.
I will look elsewhere.
I remember the words "Where can I turn for peace, where is my solace".
Obviously it is in Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.
and who does He reach out to?
Not the ninety and nine, which are safe, but the one.
And maybe "the one" is not lost, but searching for support, because the ninety and nine say "he has lost his testimony" and "Who cares?", like some of you told me.
The Sacrament prayer says we must keep the commandments which He has given us, so that we may have His spirit to be with us.
And what is the new commandment?--love one another.
Have you loved me?

Until we meet again, perhaps in other forums.
Adieu


Alma 60:36
...I seek not for power...I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God...And thus I close mine epistle.
Last edited by NOWmormon on May 4th, 2017, 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ebenezerarise
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1585

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by ebenezerarise »

No.

I have another witness.

You should seek one out for yourself instead of wasting your time on this.

Silver
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Posts: 5247

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Silver »

These kinds of newbies should be thankful that the Lord loves them more than they love Him. Love unfeigned, and a good measure of patience.

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brlenox
A sheep in wolf in sheep's clothing
Posts: 2615

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by brlenox »

NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple women
-As young as 14 years old
-Had sexual relations with some of them
-While some were already married to other men
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

I suffer mormon wounds.

I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.

Are you a NOW mormon?
Just a thought and not to be critical but to simply point out the obvious. What the church has done is a valuable thing in many respects. However, the things that you are considering hidden are simply the things you might not have known how to look for. In 1977 was when I first read "No Man Knows My History". The church hid this book in my public library in Woodburn Oregon...but I found it. Now, everything on your list is completely addressed, albeit with a HUGE bias in her book.

Since then I have studied everything I could lay my hands on over the years and have weathered all storms and any doubts on one principle. I know, have long known that this is Christ's church. I am not just saying that because that is what we say but because there is only one principle that enables one to negotiate the intense efforts of the adversary to make sure you see whatever you need to pull you off of the path. Even though there may be times when it appears the sparkle is a little less with the way history paints the issues of the church, it has always been because I can see the Saviors fingerprints all over this church that I am not deterred. I recognize His countenance in those that lead the church and that is where I have always drawn the strength to stay strong and continue to love the church and its leaders. If you do not know Jesus Christ and focus on continuing to know him as best you can there is simply not strength enough to maintain in these days of constant attack.

In the case of Joseph Smith, I have studied his life frontwards, backwards and upside down. I feel a genuine love for him as I actually have a sense of knowing who he was from my efforts of seeking out, digging, and making it my responsibility to know.

The church has the responsibility to lead people unto Christ. To place excessive emphasis on some perceived failure to properly air their dirty laundry according to the raucous cries of a godless people will ultimately prove of great harm.

In your case, make a change and don't wait to get your knowledge from someone who does a writeup on LDSORG. If you are interested, I am a reasonably accomplished student of the gospel. If you want a couple of pointers, I am happy to point you in a couple of directions that if you have any talent as a genuine student at all will help you move in a positive direction.

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nightlight
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Posts: 8474

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by nightlight »

Keep going down this wide path you seem to have stumbled on and you will find out the real meaning of neglect and wounded.

D&C 1:14
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

Fiannan
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Posts: 12983

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Fiannan »

A "NOW" Mormon? That's fresh.

Image

First, the polyandry thing as it is presented by those negative to the Church doesn't hold.

Second, tell me what age the Bible sets for marriage? When Mary was impregnated with Jesus she was 13 or 14.

Third, polygamy is the Biblical form of "traditional marriage."

scottja
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Posts: 424
Location: Gilbert, AZ

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by scottja »

Hello NOWMormon,
Do you have some links from the lds.org site that spell out that list about Joseph you provided?
or a collection of links.
I'd like to study this, but I looked, and can't find the information you shared.

Spaced_Out
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Posts: 1795

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Spaced_Out »

NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.
Are you a NOW mormon?
No Don't care it is God's business who he called and what they do. It has nothing to do with you or me. If one prays in sincerity the HG will give you a testimony and that is all the info you need.

A lot of that history is out of context and misleading. I think this post is just another anti Christ post with no intention of doing God's will...

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inho
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Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by inho »

NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.
When you say it like that, it sounds like Church leaders have intentionally hid things with sinister motives. There is no proof that it went like that. It is true that not all aspects of the church history have been represented accurately in the church manuals. However, there are other explanations for that than some conspiracy among the leadership.
First of all, the manuals we use in our Sunday classes are not meant to teach us history; their primary goal is to help us become more Christlike people.
In the early years, the leaders were so close to the events of Joseph Smith's times that their view simply couldn't be completely objective. Joseph Fielding Smith was Hyrum Smit's grandson. When he was the Church Historian, he mixed history with the representing his family in the best possible light.
The things that have remained hidden, were not secrets. Scholars knew them, books have been written about them. Those particular things you mentioned were maybe not taught in the Sunday school, but anyone interested in the church history could easily found them even before the era of internet.
If there were some kind of conspiracy among the leadership of the church, how wide is it? Who know "the truth"? Hans Mattson was a seventy and yet he did not know about those things. So it should be just the apostles. At which point is a new apostle initiated into the secret? That scenario just does not make any sense. It is much easier to believe that those things didn't come up because we have very little place for professional history in the church. In the church classrooms history is used for faith promoting purposes, it is not the focus of the lessons.

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Robin Hood
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Posts: 13158
Location: England

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Robin Hood »

NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple women
-As young as 14 years old
-Had sexual relations with some of them
-While some were already married to other men
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

I suffer mormon wounds.

I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.

Are you a NOW mormon?
Where've you been?
None of this is new. This information has been out there for decades, and even more so since the advent of the internet.
By producing the essays the church has simply made the information available to members in a format which is less agenda (meaning anti-Mormon) driven.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Spaced_Out »

NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple women
-As young as 14 years old
-Had sexual relations with some of them
-While some were already married to other men
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

I suffer mormon wounds.

I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.

Are you a NOW mormon?
Half a century in the church and you still don't have a testimony - but rely on men and you own understanding of things - it is very sad.

Being South African and now living in Australia - I know nothing of church history or the US in the early pioneer days, or what JS got up to..
In that time period in South African the average age of marriage was like 13 years old, many of my ancestors got married at that age, and if you live till 40 or 50 you were very old as life expectancy was very short.

buffalo_girl
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Posts: 7084

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by buffalo_girl »

Gosh...I'm sort of shocked by the responses to Scott's spiritual PTSD!

So, ALL of you have long known that church history is fraught with contradiction yet remain anchored in your unshaken testimonies? I don't know whether to be impressed with your spiritual wisdom or to categorize this glib acceptance and justification as a form of institutional denial. Even if it took a whole lot of personal research and prayer to arrive upon solid ground, there doesn't seem to be much empathy with someone who may just now be embarking on his own struggle to reconcile the so called 'facts' with what he believed to be Truth.

This appears to have been Scott's very first post on the Forum. Is it possible to share your paths to spiritual safety without the condescension?

I heard an interesting observation in a film about the Catholic Church's method of dealing with and burying knowledge of sexual predation upon children.

"It may take a village to raise a child, but It also takes a village to abuse a child."

Silence, justification, acceptance, perpetuating wrongs, institutionalizing behaviors harmful to others are NOT of Christ!

The very best counsel I can share with Scott is to read, and study the Book of Mormon every day. Approach your scripture study with specific questions through prayer. President Monson's General Conference talk is key.

FAITH, after all, is an individually attained Virtue - NOT an institutionally assumed virtue!

Perhaps this 'blip' on the LDS Church's modern grandeur gives the ordinary follower of Christ grist for serious spiritual training.

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iWriteStuff
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Are you a mormon NOW?

Post by iWriteStuff »

I can sympathize with this brother to some extent. As a youth, you're told to gobble up the church history books and other pseudo history like The Work and the Glory. This is all well and good to get one's basics down, but it seems like there used to be a strong reluctance to approach the murky or ambivalent aspects of church history (polygamy, blacks in priesthood, Mountain Meadows, infallibility of priesthood, etc). Believe it or not, even strong members sometimes struggle with these issues and for good reason - these are not supposed to be easy issues to swallow.

So what do you do when confronted with difficult or unanswerable questions? Here's my pointers:

1) Don't just ask Laman about Nephi. You need both sides of the story. Seek more evidence; lean into the question rather than running away. There is much to be read on this subject (as well as many others) and you do yourself a disservice coming to conclusions too soon.
2) Ask someone smarter than you. If they're REALLY smart, they will not only a) know the answer but b) be able to bare their testimony of it, too. I don't mean this to sound dismissive, but we all "lack knowledge" at times, even the "smart people". (Disclaimer: I'm not one of them)
3) After obtaining both sides of the story and as much information as you can, ask God for clarity, peace, and understanding.
4) Wait for the answer. Don't do anything so hasty as to assume you already know and toss the whole church thing out the window until you've given God enough time to answer (as well as time for yourself to "ponder it out").
5) Exercise charity for what you perceive are the imperfections of others. This goes both for what you perceive is a fault of the church for not explaining it better before now as well as any fault you perceive in Joseph. Charity will help you receive an answer to your prayers.

The truth is I doubt anyone really knows the full story on polygamy. Even most church historians can't agree on some of the major points. There are enough conflicting stories that I've read to convince me it's almost impossible to know what really went on. My own thoughts on the polygamy thing is that it doesn't make a whit of sense to me, I doubt Joseph really "practiced" it as no progeny resulted from his sealings, and in all likelihood he may not have fully figured it out in principle or practice before his life was taken. Emma certainly wasn't on board, but does that make her right? There's just too much we don't know about this even now.

Anywho, those are my $.02. I'll follow that up with saying that I know the gospel is true, that the church is God's kingdom on earth, and Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. My lack of knowledge on points of doctrine or history doesn't change any of that; the Spirit has spoken peace to my soul on these matters a long time ago and that's enough for me. If you can get to that point as well, these types of issues won't matter as much if at all.

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captainfearnot
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Posts: 1975

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by captainfearnot »

Image
Saying 'what kind of idiot doesn't know about the Yellowstone supervolcano' is so much more boring than telling someone about the Yellowstone supervolcano for the first time.
It doesn't matter when in life a faithful member learns about the less savory aspects of church history and doctrine, there will always be a cadre of fellow believers standing by, ready to belittle them for not having discovered it sooner. As if we are born knowing that there is something beyond the whitewashed curriculum to be discovered at all, let alone possessing the tools to make such discoveries.

I was raised in a household where I was taught that reading a book like No Man Knows My History would have been as much a sin as drinking coffee or dating before I turned 16. By the time I learned that not all Mormons believed this to be the case, and that it may be possible to research Mormonism using sources besides the church itself without sinning, I had already made commitments and covenants designed to bind me to the church for life. Inasmuch as these decisions were made in the absence of information that might have caused me to make a different decision, had I known about it at the time, the church is guilty of withholding material information.

Of course this is all perfectly legal. Churches are not required to publish a prospectus when they solicit investments of time, talent, and money, any more than they are required to publish their financial statements or abide by ERISA. But once you've been bitten by the withholding of material information you can see why it's a requirement for investments that are regulated by law.

Simply put, material information is any information that would reasonably impact the decision of a prudent person. When I made the decision to serve a mission, attend BYU, marry in the temple, etc. I didn't know any of the things the church is now disclosing via its essays on lds.org—despite my lifelong study within the church's curriculum via church meetings, seminary, and personal study. Though I might have still made the same decisions anyway, had I known about the details of polygamy, the Book of Abraham, etc. it's reasonable to assume—given how many people discontinue belief in the church after learning these things—that I would not have. That's a textbook case of withholding material information, and that's what feels like a betrayal.

To those who say "you should have known about this earlier, I did," I always want so ask "when?" When should I have learned about polyandry? Before choosing to be baptized at 8? Before choosing to be ordained in the priesthood? While attending seminary? Before deciding to serve a mission?

To me it seems abundantly clear that the church would rather people make these commitments without all the information, so that when they do eventually learn about it, if ever, they have built their lives and self-identities as faithful Mormons, and have all the more reason to interpret the less savory information in whatever way allows them to continue their chosen life trajectory, rather than abruptly shift course and admit to themselves that their whole lives are based on an illusion.

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h_p
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Posts: 2811

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by h_p »

buffalo_girl wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 7:56 am Gosh...I'm sort of shocked by the responses to Scott's spiritual PTSD!

So, ALL of you have long known that church history is fraught with contradiction yet remain anchored in your unshaken testimonies? I don't know whether to be impressed with your spiritual wisdom or to categorize this glib acceptance and justification as a form of institutional denial. Even if it took a whole lot of personal research and prayer to arrive upon solid ground, there doesn't seem to be much empathy with someone who may just now be embarking on his own struggle to reconcile the so called 'facts' with what he believed to be Truth.

This appears to have been Scott's very first post on the Forum. Is it possible to share your paths to spiritual safety without the condescension?
Exactly! A lot of these responses are dripping with arrogance and self-righteousness. Makes me sick. Discovering that things you have built your life and identity around aren't what you think is a very difficult experience to endure. You'd think a little compassion from people who claim to have found the Truth wouldn't be too hard to muster.

Sadly, though, this isn't new to me. This is the same kind of false sympathy I've witnessed from people asking about my own family members who have left over these issues. People in this church who truly understand and care are all too rare. They're more interested in preserving their own world-view than helping the many, many people through the trials they're going through these days.

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Finrock »

Spaced_Out wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 1:37 am I think this post is just another anti Christ post with no intention of doing God's will...
Your comment just about sums up your posts in this thread.

-Finrock

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Finrock »

Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 5:11 am
NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple women
-As young as 14 years old
-Had sexual relations with some of them
-While some were already married to other men
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

I suffer mormon wounds.

I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.

Are you a NOW mormon?
Where've you been?
None of this is new. This information has been out there for decades, and even more so since the advent of the internet.
By producing the essays the church has simply made the information available to members in a format which is less agenda (meaning anti-Mormon) driven.
The Church for many years purposefully and with intent downplayed, ignored, or left out much of the controversial history not just in Church related material but also in scholarly material produced by Church funded institutions like BYU, so that it can focus solely on faith promoting stories. The Church manipulated LDS historians and scholars for years by making them believe that if they wrote material, even if factually true, that was negative towards the Church, these historians and scholars were not faithful members. These comments and this form of manipulation came from the apostles of the Church.

The Church is reversing this trend today in my opinion thanks largely in part because of the internet. From my perspective the Church has seen that its past policy was a mistake and they are trying to correct that mistake.

-Finrock

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Robin Hood
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Posts: 13158
Location: England

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Robin Hood »

Finrock wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 9:18 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 5:11 am
NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple women
-As young as 14 years old
-Had sexual relations with some of them
-While some were already married to other men
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

I suffer mormon wounds.

I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.

Are you a NOW mormon?
Where've you been?
None of this is new. This information has been out there for decades, and even more so since the advent of the internet.
By producing the essays the church has simply made the information available to members in a format which is less agenda (meaning anti-Mormon) driven.
The Church for many years purposefully and with intent downplayed, ignored, or left out much of the controversial history not just in Church related material but also in scholarly material produced by Church funded institutions like BYU, so that it can focus solely on faith promoting stories. The Church manipulated LDS historians and scholars for years by making them believe that if they wrote material, even if factually true, that was negative towards the Church, these historians and scholars were not faithful members. These comments and this form of manipulation came from the apostles of the Church.

The Church is reversing this trend today in my opinion thanks largely in part because of the internet. From my perspective the Church has seen that its past policy was a mistake and they are trying to correct that mistake.

-Finrock
The church has no interest, nor should it have, in being objective.
Historians often masquerade as objective commentators, but there is rarely such a thing.
The church is subjective and will present it's history in the best possible light..... and so it should.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Finrock »

ebenezerarise wrote: May 1st, 2017, 10:27 pm No.

I have another witness.

You should seek one out for yourself instead of wasting your time on this.
Not addressing concerns, ignoring your gut feelings, pretending that you have it all figured out, burying your head in the sand, looking away from the negative, or being superior and condescending are real examples of time and life wasted.

Asking questions, seeking for knowledge, dealing with uncertainty in sincerity, coming to terms with negative historical facts, and exposing yourself to all truth is a very good use of one's time and fulfilling.

-Finrock

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Finrock »

Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 9:27 am
Finrock wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 9:18 am
Robin Hood wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 5:11 am
NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple women
-As young as 14 years old
-Had sexual relations with some of them
-While some were already married to other men
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

I suffer mormon wounds.

I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.

Are you a NOW mormon?
Where've you been?
None of this is new. This information has been out there for decades, and even more so since the advent of the internet.
By producing the essays the church has simply made the information available to members in a format which is less agenda (meaning anti-Mormon) driven.
The Church for many years purposefully and with intent downplayed, ignored, or left out much of the controversial history not just in Church related material but also in scholarly material produced by Church funded institutions like BYU, so that it can focus solely on faith promoting stories. The Church manipulated LDS historians and scholars for years by making them believe that if they wrote material, even if factually true, that was negative towards the Church, these historians and scholars were not faithful members. These comments and this form of manipulation came from the apostles of the Church.

The Church is reversing this trend today in my opinion thanks largely in part because of the internet. From my perspective the Church has seen that its past policy was a mistake and they are trying to correct that mistake.

-Finrock
The church has no interest, nor should it have, in being objective.
Historians often masquerade as objective commentators, but there is rarely such a thing.
The church is subjective and will present it's history in the best possible light..... and so it should.
It does have an interest in presenting historical facts objectively. That is why the Church is presenting historical facts about the Church more objectively today. The Church has learned from its very huge mistake of trying to promote only faithful stories and ignoring anything unsavory from its past. This mistake of the Church has lead to much heartache and grief in the lives of people. This heartache, sense of betrayal, and grief is real. To downplay it, pretend it is nothing, or act like people are unfaithful because they don't like being deceived (even if a little) is nonsense, anti-Christ, and demonstrates a lack of compassion.

-Finrock

Matchmaker
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2266

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Matchmaker »

NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple women
-As young as 14 years old
-Had sexual relations with some of them
-While some were already married to other men
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

I suffer mormon wounds.

I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.

Are you a NOW mormon?
My opinion only.
My stepmother married her first husband when she was 15, and she turned out OK. I personally think all this modern-day feigned shock in America over teenage girls being in consensual relationships with members of the opposite sex, regardless of the young man's age, is a bit too much. These young women are not little children anymore, though their parents would like to believe they still are. They are young women with their own identity and free agency to choose. Heck, the French Presidential candidate, Emmanuel Macron, met his wife when he was 15 and she was his 39 year old drama teacher. They are still married today. He's 39 and she's 65. Imagine what the Americans would have done to them if they had lived in America instead of France!

eddie
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Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by eddie »

As I submit to you my testimony of Joseph Smith, I acknowledge his humanness along with his great spiritual powers. He did not claim to be divine, nor a perfect man. He claimed only to be a mortal man with human feelings and imperfections, trying honestly to fulfill the divine mission given to him. He so describes himself in recorded counsel given to some of the members of the Church who had just arrived in Nauvoo on October 29, 1842. Said the Prophet, “I told them I was but a man, and they must not expect me to be perfect; if they expected perfection from me, I should expect it from them; but if they would bear with my infirmities and the infirmities of the brethren, I would likewise bear with their infirmities.” (History of the Church, 5:181.)

I am impressed with his complete candor, for in addition to admitting his own humanness, he also recorded the declarations from the Lord which were given to him in the nature of loving reproof. As such reminders came to him, sometimes kindly and sometimes sternly, he dictated them as the mouthpiece of the Lord to those who transcribed the revelations. One such example is found in the Doctrine and Covenants, section 5, verse 21: “And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the persuasions of men no more.” [D&C 5:21]

While Joseph sought perfection, he did not claim perfection. If he were intending to fabricate a great falsehood or wanted to perpetrate a fraud or practice deceit, would he have been so truthful about his own humanness? His complete candor in admitting human frailties and in declaring the loving discipline of God offers powerful proof of his honesty and probity. His statements stand on more solid footing because they were declarations against human nature and admissions against self-interest.

He knew that such candor would and did make him an object of hatred, ridicule, and social disapproval, but he spoke openly the unvarnished truth. He was prepared for such vicissitudes of life early in his ministry. He was told by the angel Moroni in 1823, only three years after his glorious vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ, that his name would be known for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples, and that both good and evil would be spoken of him. (See JS—H 1:33.) However, the intensity of the evil and persecution surprised even Joseph and caused him to ask on one occasion: “Why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?” (JS—H 1:20). But he met the challenges and overcame the strife and was stronger because of them.

There should be no exaggerated emphasis on the fallibility or mortal failings of Joseph Smith. They were only things that are a part of any human being. He and his work enjoyed the benediction of Deity. On a special occasion, the Lord said to him, “Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, I am well pleased with your offering and acknowledgments, which you have made; for unto this end have I raised you up, that I might show forth my wisdom through the weak things of the earth.” (D&C 124:1.)

EZRA TAFT BENSON

Finrock
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Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Finrock »

inho wrote: May 2nd, 2017, 1:57 am
NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.
When you say it like that, it sounds like Church leaders have intentionally hid things with sinister motives. There is no proof that it went like that. It is true that not all aspects of the church history have been represented accurately in the church manuals. However, there are other explanations for that than some conspiracy among the leadership.
First of all, the manuals we use in our Sunday classes are not meant to teach us history; their primary goal is to help us become more Christlike people.
In the early years, the leaders were so close to the events of Joseph Smith's times that their view simply couldn't be completely objective. Joseph Fielding Smith was Hyrum Smit's grandson. When he was the Church Historian, he mixed history with the representing his family in the best possible light.
The things that have remained hidden, were not secrets. Scholars knew them, books have been written about them. Those particular things you mentioned were maybe not taught in the Sunday school, but anyone interested in the church history could easily found them even before the era of internet.
If there were some kind of conspiracy among the leadership of the church, how wide is it? Who know "the truth"? Hans Mattson was a seventy and yet he did not know about those things. So it should be just the apostles. At which point is a new apostle initiated into the secret? That scenario just does not make any sense. It is much easier to believe that those things didn't come up because we have very little place for professional history in the church. In the church classrooms history is used for faith promoting purposes, it is not the focus of the lessons.
The Church did intentionally withhold information. For many years LDS scholars and historians were directed by apostles to leave out or to not address negative facts about the Church and its leaders. In speeches that you can find today apostles told these members that if they published facts that were negative about the Church, these members were potentially destroying people's faith and it was implied that they themselves are unfaithful. The Church wanted to promote only "faith building" stories and historical facts. This was a big mistake and it lead to many people eventually feeling betrayed and lied to by the Church when the information started coming out during the advent of the internet.

-Finrock

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AI2.0
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Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by AI2.0 »

My responses in blue:
NOWmormon wrote: April 30th, 2017, 3:31 pm My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.Did you read the information or are you going on what others have told you? I ask this because of the questions you offer below, which don't sound like you actually read the articles You really should find things out for yourself, not rely on others-- and for every 'anti' thing you read, you should give the 'pro' side equal time and read their articles as well. Fair mormon and LDS.org are good places to start but there's a lot more out there.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple womenJoseph Smith Jr. was 'sealed' to them, you said 'married' and there is a difference, especially when you consider that men were also 'sealed' or adopted to Joseph. Also, many women were sealed to him after his death, so I think it is important to recognize this when discussing how sealings and Plural marriage was practiced in the early days while Joseph was still alive.
-As young as 14 years oldHelen Mar Kimball was 14, so that's one. We don't know if the union was consummated. Did the essays on the church website say there were others as young as 14? Also, you need to realize that the supposed number of women who were sealed to Joseph is speculative--there is not a lot of evidence for some of them to be sure it is accurate.
-Had sexual relations with some of themDue to the nature of privacy, we do not know for certain, but because of testimony given in the temple lot case, it seems that some were consummated. But, since there is no proof that he had children with anyone other than his wife, Emma Smith,
we can only speculate at this point. Also, women who said that Joseph Smith was the father of their child--the DNA testing negated this claim.

-While some were already married to other menYes, but once again, you need to consider that the understanding and use of sealing was not the same as it is today. It seemed to be more dynastic in nature.
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.Yes, that seems to be correct. She did know about some, giving her consent for some of the unions.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.Okay, no one 'hid' anything from you. It was ALL OUT THERE for you to read, even before the internet, but if you are like most LDS, if all you did was go to Sunday school or attend seminary and sleep through it and you weren't interested in studying the history of the church more in depth, then yes, I guess you missed it. I know it was all out there,
because many of us members were aware of these things, in my case, 45 years ago, when I read; "Joseph Smith, the First Mormon' which was very informative. And, there were other books and materials out there for you to read, if you were interested in learning the history of your faith.
Other books that mentioned these things abound. Granted, it wasn't in the Sunday School manuals and if that was the extent of your study, then you missed it,
but the fact is, no one 'hid' it. It was there for the reading, IF you took the time and interest.


I suffer mormon wounds.How have you suffered? Is Joseph Smith Jr. a prophet of God or not? Did he translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God or not? Did he see God the Father and Jesus Christ in the Sacred grove? Yes, he was involved in polygamy, but he also did all these things. If you believe that a man who could be involved in polygamy could never be God's prophet, seer and revelator, then you've got a problem,
but keep in mind that some of the rest of us know all this stuff and we have a witness and testimony of Joseph Smith Jr. despite these 'revelations' as you think they are.


I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.Yes, there are a handful that are upset when they find out things they didn't know. But many don't throw the things they DO know by the power of the Holy Ghost out the window simply because they don't have all the answers and Heavenly Father chooses to 'try our faith' for a little season.

Are you a NOW mormon?No, I'm not. I haven't reconciled all the information I am aware of regarding Joseph Smith Jr. and his practice of polygamy, but I don't believe in the infallibility of Prophets--I will leave the judgments to God and withhold my own judgement of the Lord's anointed (that's the standard with which I'd like to be judged as well) and expect that one day I'll understand completely. Until then, I rely and faith and the knowledge that I DO have and I'll be true to the testimony I have of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Are you a NOW mormon?

Post by Finrock »

Silver wrote: May 1st, 2017, 10:35 pm These kinds of newbies should be thankful that the Lord loves them more than they love Him. Love unfeigned, and a good measure of patience.
Because someone feels betrayed by the Church does not infer that they don't love God. I think your implication is ridiculous in this case.

Loyalty to the Gospel of Jesus Christ does not always mean loyalty to everything done in the Church by mortal and fallible leaders who have engaged and taken part in a multitude of mistakes and errors just like the rest of us.

It's important that we distinguish between the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and always maintain our loyalty to the part which is the end and not the means.

-Finrock

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