Are you a NOW mormon?

[Finrock]

It does have an interest in presenting historical facts objectively. That is why the Church is presenting historical facts about the Church more objectively today. The Church has learned from its very huge mistake of trying to promote only faithful stories and ignoring anything unsavory from its past. This mistake of the Church has lead to much heartache and grief in the lives of people. This heartache, sense of betrayal, and grief is real. To downplay it, pretend it is nothing, or act like people are unfaithful because they don't like being deceived (even if a little) is nonsense, anti-Christ, and demonstrates a lack of compassion.

-Finrock

Completely disagree.
The church is not an historical society trying to grapple objectively with available information.
It is a church with a message about the restoration of the gospel through a true prophet, and that is it's starting point.
As President Packer pointed out, objectivity is not part of it's remit.

We disagree fundamentally about what the Church and this religion is about it seems. Being objective and loyal to truth is at the core of being a Mormon. As a life long member, that has been the most consistent message I have received and learned. It isn't about being loyal to egocentric and sociocentric paradigms, but our religion is about being loyal to truth, principles, and goodness, no matter the cost.

-Finrock

It appears you're clearly struggling with the meaning of the word "objective", which suggests you have totally unjustified expectations of the church, or of any church for that matter.
Are Muslims objective about the life of Muhammed? Are Catholics objective about the divinity of Jesus? Are athiests objective about the existence of God?
You are attempting to require a characteristic from the church which is blatantly unreasonable, and then crying foul when it is pointed out it doesn't have it.
The church is not objective and was never meant to be. It is committed to it's mission and message.

This means it will always, and rightly, emphasise the positive and minimise the negative, focus on the good and ignore the bad, promote the historical records of heroism and discipleship while ignoring behaviour of a less faith promoting kind.

We are a church, not an historical society; of which there are already plenty.

I'm not struggling with the meaning of the word "objective". You are stating your beliefs and your opinions. Your idea of a Church is what I expect of worldly institutions. God's kingdom is different and so should be His Church. In fact, His Church is different from worldly institutions. God's Church in the realm of the "ought to be" isn't concerned about branding a particular message, being popular, having an effective PR department, good lawyers, and being run like a well oiled corporation. Like I said, you and I differ in our understanding of what God's Church ought to be and ought to be concerned with.

Yes, many institutions and many Church's operate how you describe because they are concerned with the worldly systems and their priority is in the end to pay lip service to truth, if even that, but they deny the power of God and rely on their own prowess, intelligence, and good business principles.

The scriptures are an example of how God operates. The scriptures are not a compilation of stories and heroes who always win the day. The scriptures describe individuals, prophets and not prophets alike, who are flawed, who make mistakes, who struggle, and who acknowledge their weaknesses. Its from the scriptures where we learn that weaknesses are given to us from God. God is truth. God does not fear truth neither does He shy away from it or try to cover up truth when it doesn't reflect well on His prophets or His apostles. The central tenet of the Mormon religion is about receiving and accepting truth from whatever source it may come.

When an organization transitions to adoring and venerating mortals that is when you start seeing history being reconstructed, shaped, and formed by the powers that be. When an organization is concerned with truth and with bringing about God's purposes, you have no fear of what the world might think, there is no need to cover things up, to paint a rosy picture, or to neglect distasteful portions of an organizations past.

My lifelong membership in the Church has taught me that I should be loyal to principles and to truth. It has taught me that I should be ready to sacrifice my reputation, my all, in the pursuit of truth. My religion has taught me to be fair minded and to be humble. My religion has taught me to acknowledge my faults and to make amends and to repent when I am in error. These are central, fundamental, and critical principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Luckily, the Church today is moving towards this direction. Despite what you believe and what your opinion on what a Church should be, today we have a Church which is being more open, less concerned about shaping an image and creating "heroes" that can be venerated, and they are helping in releasing unmolested information so that people can make informed decisions based on the whole truth. I personally, am not interested in the type of religious organization you describe and believe that the Mormon religion is. I'm glad that you are wrong and I'm glad that the apostles seem to realize the mistakes of the past and are making amends and repenting. I'm glad apostles have begun to acknowledged the faults of the past. We still have much work ahead of us as an institution but we are heading in the right direction.

-Finrock

[Col. Flagg]

Very little of what Joseph Smith restored is in practice today by the institutional church.

Problems:

1. Temple marriage - Joseph taught that marriages were to be a public, community event/celebration to be enjoyed by all family members and friends and that the sealing came after - nowadays, we marry couples in the temple itself and prevent any non-member or non-temple-worthy individuals from participating. The Temple Ceremony is done correctly.

2. Blacks & the priesthood - the church's own essays (which are buried, you have to really look for them) pretty much throw Brigham Young under the bus as a racist). At least this was restored and corrected in 1978.

3. Temple endowment - how many times has it been changed? Dozens? I'm just glad I wasn't old enough to have to go through the blood-oath stuff pre-1990, good heavens. We are a progressive church, any changes were given to the Prophet by direction of Jesus Christ.

4. Tithing - It was originally instituted at 2%, then Joseph went to the Lord about it and it was changed to 10% of surplus (the true, proper and scriptural law) and then Pres. Snow changed that to 10% of all your worth in the 1930's when the church was drowning in debt and on the verge of bankruptcy because of land speculation within the hierarchy. I have no problem with paying 10%, its a debt we owe.

5. The Law of Common Consent - completely ignored today, it used to be a scriptural requirement for anything done with church funds, where members would voice support or opposition for how church monies were used. If it were in practice today, we wouldn't have a $5 billion monument to King Noah in downtown Salt Lake (City Creek mall/plush condos). Its a beautiful edifice which enhances the beauty of Salt Lake City, our church headquarters. Unfortunately it also causes much murmering.

6. Financial transparency - a full accounting used to be given to the members during General Conference of all funds received and disbursed and the sources and destinations of said funds. This was stopped in the 1960's when the church began to use tithing money to invest to make money. Lay not up your treasures on things that rot and rust. Don't worry about the money, its being handled correctly.

And there are many others examples too. Thanks for NOT sharing. Time to re-evaluate who's side you are on.

Me thinks you need to re-evaluate your remarks and do a little research into these issues using scripture. I'm on the side of truth, what Joseph Smith taught and restored and the gospel of Jesus Christ. What side are you on?

[Finrock]

The Church for many years purposefully and with intent downplayed, ignored, or left out much of the controversial history not just in Church related material but also in scholarly material produced by Church funded institutions like BYU, so that it can focus solely on faith promoting stories. The Church manipulated LDS historians and scholars for years by making them believe that if they wrote material, even if factually true, that was negative towards the Church, these historians and scholars were not faithful members. These comments and this form of manipulation came from the apostles of the Church.

Let's see you back that up.

You ever hear of BH Roberts?

This talk given by Elder Packer to LDS scholars and historians is one example. It provides the framework for how the Church wanted history to be taught. In this talk LDS scholars and historians are essentially told by an apostle that if they recount history objectively then they are at risk at being "destroyers of faith." They are also counseled to focus on faith promoting stories and to leave out historical facts that are not faith promoting. The underlying message is that if you write objective history about the Church or if you write about negative aspects of the Church you are not a good member or a faithful LDS.

This speech in my view was very coercive and it provides context to what the Church's position was and how they wanted to shape and sugarcoat the Church's history. This policy was a mistake.

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/ ... ct_eng.pdf

-Finrock

[DesertWonderer]

Very little of what Joseph Smith restored is in practice today by the institutional church.

Problems:

1. Temple marriage - Joseph taught that marriages were to be a public, community event/celebration to be enjoyed by all family members and friends and that the sealing came after - nowadays, we marry couples in the temple itself and prevent any non-member or non-temple-worthy individuals from participating.

2. Blacks & the priesthood - the church's own essays (which are buried, you have to really look for them pretty much throw Brigham Young under the bus as a racist). At least this was lifted in 1978.

3. Temple endowment - how many times has it been changed? Dozens? I'm just glad I wasn't old enough to have to go through the blood-oath stuff pre-1990, good heavens.

4. Tithing - It was originally instituted at 2%, then Joseph went to the Lord about it and it was changed to 10% of surplus (the true, proper and scriptural law) and then Pres. Snow changed that to 10% of all your worth in the 1930's when the church was drowning in debt and on the verge of bankruptcy because of land speculation within the hierarchy.

5. The Law of Common Consent - completely ignored today, it used to be a scriptural requirement for anything done with church funds, where members would voice support or opposition for how church monies were used. If it were in practice today, we wouldn't have a $5 billion monument to King Noah in downtown Salt Lake (City Creek mall/plush condos).

6. Financial transparency - a full accounting used to be given to the members during General Conference of all funds received and disbursed and the sources and destinations of said funds. This was stopped in the 1960's when the church began to use tithing money to invest to make money.

And there are many others examples too.

Let's say for the fun of it that you are correct.

Then let's add these facts to the equation as well: Abraham's church was different from Melchizedek's church. Moses' church was different from Abraham's. Christ's church was different than Moses'. Alma's church was different than them all. When I say different, I mean different offices, procedures, etc...i.e what you have noted above.

Using your logic, which, IF ANY, of the churches I listed were the true church?

[Robin Hood]

The Church for many years purposefully and with intent downplayed, ignored, or left out much of the controversial history not just in Church related material but also in scholarly material produced by Church funded institutions like BYU, so that it can focus solely on faith promoting stories. The Church manipulated LDS historians and scholars for years by making them believe that if they wrote material, even if factually true, that was negative towards the Church, these historians and scholars were not faithful members. These comments and this form of manipulation came from the apostles of the Church.

Let's see you back that up.

You ever hear of BH Roberts?

This talk given by Elder Packer to LDS scholars and historians is one example. It provides the framework for how the Church wanted history to be taught. In this talk LDS scholars and historians are essentially told by an apostle that if they recount history objectively then they are at risk at being "destroyers of faith." They are also counseled to focus on faith promoting stories and to leave out historical facts that are not faith promoting. The underlying message is that if you write objective history about the Church or if you write about negative aspects of the Church you are not a good member or a faithful LDS.

This speech in my view was very coercive and it provides context to what the Church's position was and how they wanted to shape and sugarcoat the Church's history. This policy was a mistake.

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/ ... ct_eng.pdf

-Finrock

Rubbish!
This talk is aimed at seminary and institute teachers, and by implication BYU professors. All of these people are in the church's employ, are paid well, and are required to tow the line.
This is the same with any employer.

Context is everything Finrock. Try it sometime.

[Rose Garden]

My name is Scott, a lifetime member of the Church.

In an effort towards more transparency regarding its history, the Church has added controversial content on the official church website lds.org.
Much of this information is new to me, let alone shocking.

Particularly, that the founder Joseph Smith:
-Married multiple women
-As young as 14 years old
-Had sexual relations with some of them
-While some were already married to other men
-And his wife, Emma, did not know about all of them.

After a half century as a member of the Church, I am finally being told what Church leadership had known for almost two centuries.
Because they hid so much from me, I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

I suffer mormon wounds.

I am a NOW Mormon (Neglected Or Wounded Mormon).

And I know that I am not alone.

Are you a NOW mormon?

I didn't comment before because I wasn't certain that you would be coming back. But since you did, at least once, I'll give this a shot.

You were born into an LDS family. Some people were born into slavery. Others were born into wealth and royalty (what a curse!). Some were born into poverty and starved to death. Lots of people were born into an earth without today's technology and had to work hard day and night to keep their family alive. For the most part, it seems really unfair.

So here's the question: do you think that before you were born you didn't have a choice of where you would land? Do you think that you didn't choose to be born into an LDS family that would expose you to the teachings you were exposed to and lead you to believe the things you believed?

Regardless of what you believe about how much choice you had in the matter, if you want to claim neglect or wounding, then you need to reconcile your beliefs with those who were born into circumstances much more terrible than your own. In that perspective, your troubles are nothing to talk about. You should perhaps be grateful for what you are experiencing and grateful that you weren't born black in the Southern states in the 1700's.

I don't mean to belittle your struggles. I do believe that we have a choice of where we are going to go in this life and I believe that we choose exactly the challenges that we need the most. I believe you when you say you are wounded by the things that have taken place in this life. However, the answer is not to point fingers and fight against the forces that you feel have hurt you. The answer is to turn to the Lord, forgive others of their trespasses against you and repent of your own sins. It's the same challenge for you as it is for the slave in the 1700's, or the Jew in the holocaust, or the poor, starving boy in Africa.

[AI2.0]

The guy claims to be a member for more than 50 years and this is the first he's heard about this stuff?? The church started publishing the essays in 2003. I learned about it pre-internet time when I was in high school. Has he been living in his Mothers internet-less basement??

Yes, because everyone in the universe is expected to know exactly what you know at exactly the time you learned it.

Even if he's just trolling, it's people like you who are giving those who have been legitimately hurt by the church plenty of justification for never coming back. Please reconsider the way you're treating people who believe differently than you.

'Hurt by the church'? Any 'hurt' he feels is perceived and misguided. The 'church' is not some big ponzi scheme set up by a scam artist to hurt people. In the last 200 years, those who have been members of the church and those who have run the church are actually sincere in their belief!!! They actually believe it is the Lord's one and only true church on the earth, they don't believe they are scamming people. So, how can he be upset, except to be upset by how some people fulfilled their callings. They are not perfect, they make mistakes. Maybe it was wrong to only present church history and leaders in a positive light, but it's obvious that they did it because they thought that was the right way to handle their responsibilities. I'm tired of the 'Scotts' out there who criticize and blame good, sincere, well meaning people for being human. I'd like to see what 'Scott' would have done had he lived 100 years ago and had a sincere testimony of the church. Would he have put out all the history, warts and all--if he thought it might damage the tender faith of some members? Would he have insisted on putting everything out there even though he knew it might cause some to lose their testimonies because they MUST have leaders who are perfect? If you consider this from the FACT that these people sincerely believed the Gospel is true and they have witnesses by the Holy Ghost of these things, don't you think they will do their utter best to try to help others to receive a testimony too? Just because 'Scott' no longer believes, doesn't mean that others also don't believe and they are just cravenly misleading people.

Scott is wrong for thinking that he has a legitimate beef against the church. He doesn't because nothing was done to intentionally harm him. It's not the church's fault that he lost his testimony. It's not the church's fault that he is not able to recognize the need for faith and trust in God--that there will not always be answers in this life to our questions.

If 'Scott' is actually sincere, then I'm sorry his faith in the Gospel was so fragile and I'm sorry that he's looking now to sow discontent among other members as well.

[eddie]

Me thinks you need to re-evaluate your remarks and do a little research into these issues using scripture. I'm on the side of truth, what Joseph Smith taught and restored and the gospel of Jesus Christ. What side are you on?

Gordon B. Hinckley

How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand, align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength—highly intelligent and capable individuals.

Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.

[Finrock]

The Church for many years purposefully and with intent downplayed, ignored, or left out much of the controversial history not just in Church related material but also in scholarly material produced by Church funded institutions like BYU, so that it can focus solely on faith promoting stories. The Church manipulated LDS historians and scholars for years by making them believe that if they wrote material, even if factually true, that was negative towards the Church, these historians and scholars were not faithful members. These comments and this form of manipulation came from the apostles of the Church.

Let's see you back that up.

You ever hear of BH Roberts?

This talk given by Elder Packer to LDS scholars and historians is one example. It provides the framework for how the Church wanted history to be taught. In this talk LDS scholars and historians are essentially told by an apostle that if they recount history objectively then they are at risk at being "destroyers of faith." They are also counseled to focus on faith promoting stories and to leave out historical facts that are not faith promoting. The underlying message is that if you write objective history about the Church or if you write about negative aspects of the Church you are not a good member or a faithful LDS.

This speech in my view was very coercive and it provides context to what the Church's position was and how they wanted to shape and sugarcoat the Church's history. This policy was a mistake.

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/ ... ct_eng.pdf

-Finrock

Rubbish!
This talk is aimed at seminary and institute teachers, and by implication BYU professors. All of these people are in the church's employ, are paid well, and are required to tow the line.
This is the same with any employer.

Context is everything Finrock. Try it sometime.

Easy to say "rubbish" and to attack a person, but its much harder to rationally discuss and exchange ideas in an honorable way. With that being said, which parts of what I've said are rubbish and why? Do you even understand the point that I'm making? Please support your assertion.

I understand that it is your opinion that the Church is a business and/or should be run like a business. I disagree with your opinion on this matter. You asserting that the Church is doing just what any other business would do is besides the point.

-Finrock

[shadow]

When an organization transitions to adoring and venerating mortals...
-Finrock

Like this?
17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

18 Behold, he was a man like unto Ammon, the son of Mosiah, yea, and even the other sons of Mosiah, yea, and also Alma and his sons, for they were all men of God.

The church actually doesn't do much of that^^ .

[h_p]

'Hurt by the church'? Any 'hurt' he feels is perceived and misguided. The 'church' is not some big ponzi scheme set up by a scam artist to hurt people. In the last 200 years, those who have been members of the church and those who have run the church are actually sincere in their belief!!! They actually believe it is the Lord's one and only true church on the earth, they don't believe they are scamming people. So, how can he be upset, except to be upset by how some people fulfilled their callings.

By church, I mean people in the church, including leaders. No need to be pedantic here to push a point. Yes, I believe the majority of people in the church are doing their best to fulfill their callings. But I think it's a little naive to think that every person to the last man, woman, and child is always sincere. And if we can admit that people in the church are flawed, we also have to admit that those flaws can result in real damage to innocent people, even if it wasn't done maliciously.

Here's an example from my own life: in my role as a father, I've always tried to raise my children perfectly, because I love them dearly. Of course, I've fallen short many, many times. While I can honestly say that the majority of the time, I've given my children lots of love and did the best I could, I've said things that in hindsight were very hurtful to my children, and in recent months, my eyes are painfully opening up to the full reality of it.

What should I do about it? Should I just tell my children that their feelings are misguided, that they should suck it up and not feel hurt because I didn't do it intentionally? Should I take Shadow's approach and just tell them to stop being a victim? Or should I reach out to them in compassion and humility and beg for their forgiveness?

[buffalo_girl]

Thank you for making me feel so loved and supported.

My 'trial of faith' began very early - in my early teens, actually. My mother joined the Church shortly after WWII. She came from a failed marriage with a very young child - me. Single mothers were not common then. By the time I received my Patriarchal Blessing at age 15, I was pretty cynical about how I would or could ever fit into the cultural/social norm of the LDS Church.

I didn't fully comprehend at so tender an age one of the most important promises in my Blessing: "Many will respect you for the position and stand you will take in defense of The Gospel of Jesus Christ."

It took me a few years of searching prayer and Book of Mormon study before I began to comprehend what that promise was saying to me.

My innocent comprehension of Christ's perfect Kingdom had been tainted by the behaviors of less than Christlike members of the institutional Church in which we - each and every one - do our best to 'practice' the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Once I understood the difference, I was free to continue learning the Principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, doing my best to apply those Principles into 'real life', and finally being able to recognize a TEST when it presented itself.

How we apply Gospel Principles to the big TEST's is where we are 'sifted' - as some call it. (It isn't up to anyone but the LORD to judge where we stand with Him.)

Defending The Gospel of Jesus Christ is easy. Defending mortal error or misconception is a fool's errand. It isn't possible.

Stick with The Gospel of Jesus Christ and DO the best you can to apply the Principles.

3Nephi 28
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

[BTH&T]

Please read this and let me know if you feel this applies.

D&C Sec.50 1-25
Hearken, O ye elders of my church, and give ear to the voice of the living God; and attend to the words of wisdom which shall be given unto you, according as ye have asked and are agreed as touching the church, and the spirits which have gone abroad in the earth.
Behold, verily I say unto you, that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world.
And also Satan hath sought to deceive you, that he might overthrow you.
Behold, I, the Lord, have looked upon you, and have seen abominations in the church that profess my name.
But blessed are they who are faithful and endure, whether in life or in death, for they shall inherit eternal life.
But wo unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites, for, thus saith the Lord, I will bring them to judgment.
Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed;
But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.
Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me.
And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand;
Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face.
Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand.
Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question—unto what were ye ordained?
To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth.
And then received ye spirits which ye could not understand, and received them to be of God; and in this are ye justified?
Behold ye shall answer this question yourselves; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto you; he that is weak among you hereafter shall be made strong.
Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
If it be some other way it is not of God.
Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?
Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.
And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you;



Seems to me that many want to pick and choose want they like in The Lords Church and what they take offense with.
Not trying to be judgmental nor uncompassionate but what is with all the issues that are problems?
Polygamy? Tithing? Prophets speaking for the Lord at the head of HIS Church, how money is spent or not spent.
I have my problems like all do, but I have a hard time understanding how one can have a witness to the
truthfulness of the Savior and the Book of Mormon and let all these other things bring us down.

What am I missing? I know what I know and it makes these other things nothing less than insignificant.
Once one gains a witness, why ask over and over again?

[Finrock]

When an organization transitions to adoring and venerating mortals...
-Finrock

Like this?
17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

18 Behold, he was a man like unto Ammon, the son of Mosiah, yea, and even the other sons of Mosiah, yea, and also Alma and his sons, for they were all men of God.

The church actually doesn't do much of that^^ .

No. I mean in the way that fanatics venerate their celebrity of choice. Or, when some people in the Church treat General Authorities, particularly apostles, as celebrities. Mormon commented on an occasion about how Moroni was a man of God. This happens often at funerals and other such situations which is just fine in my view as long as people in the end give glory to God. But, this type acknowledgement that happens on occasion is not what I'm talking about. I'm really talking about a "cult of personality" where "mass media and propaganda and other methods are used to create an idealized, heroic, and at times worshipful image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise" of an individual, an office, or a position. Another example is how Kim Jung Un is venerated in North Korea. The North Korean's have taken it to an extreme level, but the idea is still the same.

-Finrock

[iWriteStuff]

since we're sharing stuff we've read lately, I thought I'd share one thing I just finished reading during my lunch break:

The gospel and the Church: we call one the plan and the other the work. The plan looks to the eternities and must necessarily be perfect; but the work is right here and is anything but the finished product. Yet the two are inseparable! “To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” is the plan; to carry it out, “this is my work and my glory”—the glory is in the work. We are permitted to take part in the work, to participate like eager but bungling children in the kitchen or the shop—dropping things, doing it all wrong, quarreling, getting in each other’s way, trying the patience of indulgent elders. What a headache! Yet such is the best and happiest arrangement for all concerned, everybody having a wonderful time—and it is found only in the restored Church, where the plan and the work are equally exhilarating and equally sacred...

It is the schoolmen and the fundamentalists who stop the process with final answers, satisfied with what they have. Too often the mere fact that the teaching and history of the Church raise unanswered questions is taken as proof positive that something is seriously wrong. And it is wrong if we ever stop seeking.

- Hugh Nibley, Temple and Cosmos

Short version: keep seeking. Dig more, learn more, ASK more. Don't be content to give up until you've asked for revelation and qualified yourself to receive it.

[Finrock]

The guy claims to be a member for more than 50 years and this is the first he's heard about this stuff?? The church started publishing the essays in 2003. I learned about it pre-internet time when I was in high school. Has he been living in his Mothers internet-less basement??

Yes, because everyone in the universe is expected to know exactly what you know at exactly the time you learned it.

Even if he's just trolling, it's people like you who are giving those who have been legitimately hurt by the church plenty of justification for never coming back. Please reconsider the way you're treating people who believe differently than you.

'Hurt by the church'? Any 'hurt' he feels is perceived and misguided. The 'church' is not some big ponzi scheme set up by a scam artist to hurt people. In the last 200 years, those who have been members of the church and those who have run the church are actually sincere in their belief!!! They actually believe it is the Lord's one and only true church on the earth, they don't believe they are scamming people. So, how can he be upset, except to be upset by how some people fulfilled their callings. They are not perfect, they make mistakes. Maybe it was wrong to only present church history and leaders in a positive light, but it's obvious that they did it because they thought that was the right way to handle their responsibilities. I'm tired of the 'Scotts' out there who criticize and blame good, sincere, well meaning people for being human. I'd like to see what 'Scott' would have done had he lived 100 years ago and had a sincere testimony of the church. Would he have put out all the history, warts and all--if he thought it might damage the tender faith of some members? Would he have insisted on putting everything out there even though he knew it might cause some to lose their testimonies because they MUST have leaders who are perfect? If you consider this from the FACT that these people sincerely believed the Gospel is true and they have witnesses by the Holy Ghost of these things, don't you think they will do their utter best to try to help others to receive a testimony too? Just because 'Scott' no longer believes, doesn't mean that others also don't believe and they are just cravenly misleading people.

Scott is wrong for thinking that he has a legitimate beef against the church. He doesn't because nothing was done to intentionally harm him. It's not the church's fault that he lost his testimony. It's not the church's fault that he is not able to recognize the need for faith and trust in God--that there will not always be answers in this life to our questions.

If 'Scott' is actually sincere, then I'm sorry his faith in the Gospel was so fragile and I'm sorry that he's looking now to sow discontent among other members as well.

Any time someone feels hurt it is how they perceive the situation. This is an obvious fact. But, this doesn't take away from the fact that they were hurt. How else do we interact with the world and reality except through our perception. If someone comes to you and says, "Hey, how you treated me was very hurtful and emotionally painful" are you going to tell them "No, you weren't hurt by me and how I treated you". You can't justifiably tell people that they weren't hurt by something or someone when they say that they were. Are you going to claim that all of these people are liars and they are making it up? If you are hurt by someone and what they said or what they did do you want them to belittle your pain or to downplay it or worse yet, deny that you were hurt at all? To do such a thing is abusive and wrong.

Here, check out this link from the Outer Darkness section: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=41473. It's titled, "Religious Practices that Can Hurt". When you read some of these examples or look at the videos, it is clear some of the things people do and say in the name of religion are abusive, wrong, and hurtful to others. I am certain that every one of those examples from that thread were actions done by people with sincerely held beliefs, who sincerely felt that they were just doing what was right and what they thought God wanted them to do. This fact does not take away from any collateral damage, pain, or hurt that was inflicted upon another person as a result of their sincerely held religious beliefs.

H_p's example was great. I've been there and done that with my own children. I love my children with all that I am and yet I have acted often over the years in a way that has hurt them or has even been abusive, even though I felt I was doing what was right or was trying my best. In many cases before I could even identify my own actions that have been hurtful it has required that I be humble, be ready to change, acknowledge my offenses, be willing to listen, and give up any attempts to justify or rationalize my actions.

-Finrock

[kittycat51]

This has been a very interesting thread. I thank all of the great comments. I'm sorry that Scott feels the way he does. It is the same way I felt several years ago when I woke up to the truth of just how wicked the world is and especially the wickedness that runs rampant in our own country and government. I was numb and it was hard to see some of the truths for what they really are. (maybe this isn't a good comparison but that's another story...)

I am one who has grown up in the Church and consider myself blessed to have just always known the truthfulness of our Savior, The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith as a prophet. I can remember many instances at a very young age of the Holy Ghost bearing witness to me. One who is a skeptic might ask, well "HOW do you know?" Well, it's the same way I know I love my family, I love chocolate cake, I know the sky is blue...it all "tastes delicious to me" it just feels good and right and I cannot deny when I feel the promptings of the Holy Spirit. (the last is something you have to learn to recognize)

When it comes down to it, in a situation like this where you feel betrayed, shocked or hurt, get back to the BASICS. Christ lives. HE is the center of our Church. The Book of Mormon is the cornerstone of our Church. It is a true book. If the book is true than Joseph Smith who translated it was indeed a chosen prophet of God.

Scott please go back and read President Uchtdorf's talk "Come Join with us". https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng Remember the great quote from that talk... "please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith." He also states: "Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history—along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events—there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.

Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience. When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.

Sometimes there is a difference of opinion as to what the “facts” really mean. A question that creates doubt in some can, after careful investigation, build faith in others.

And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

In the title page of the Book of Mormon we read, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.”

[BTH&T]

Any time someone feels hurt it is how they perceive the situation. This is an obvious fact. But, this doesn't take away from the fact that they were hurt. How else do we interact with the world and reality except through our perception..........
-Finrock

By following Christ and learning to be humble, submissive, long suffering.

It's not that we don't get hurt by others, it's how we react and behave when we are hurt.
Always keep an eternal perspective.

[Finrock]

Any time someone feels hurt it is how they perceive the situation. This is an obvious fact. But, this doesn't take away from the fact that they were hurt. How else do we interact with the world and reality except through our perception..........
-Finrock

By following Christ and learning to be humble, submissive, long suffering.

It's not that we don't get hurt by others, it's how we react and behave when we are hurt.
Always keep an eternal perspective.

I have some experience in being hurt by others and with learning to forgive and to love. Of course there is a solution and there is a correct way of dealing with being hurt. Nothing the OP has said or claimed is insurmountable or eternally damning on the Church, it leaders, or the members. I don't disagree at all with what you are saying here.

But, to be clear, what I'm addressing is how the OP has been treated by others on this thread or the belittling and outright denial of his perceived pain and wounds. And, not just his, but anyone who has been hurt by things that Church has said, done, or policies that they have had.

I have yet to address the OP.

-Finrock

[Army Of Truth]

Any time someone feels hurt it is how they perceive the situation. This is an obvious fact. But, this doesn't take away from the fact that they were hurt. How else do we interact with the world and reality except through our perception..........
-Finrock

By following Christ and learning to be humble, submissive, long suffering.

It's not that we don't get hurt by others, it's how we react and behave when we are hurt.
Always keep an eternal perspective.

I agree! and NOWHERE does "Scott" go "anti-mormon" or attack ANYONE else here. He is simply stating that he is "betrayed, deceived and hurt" as am I. I am a lifetime member, married in the temple, served a full time mission, still believe fully in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and still believe 100% in the Book of Mormon and 100% that Joseph Smith was prophet of God. However, I also believe these TRUTHS that have been exposed.

Just because Joseph was far from perfect, that fact has NOTHING to do with the truthfulness of the Gospel or the Book of Mormon. That's my point. It does prove that not everyone speaking from our pulpits speaks the mind and will of the Lord at all times. NOBODY is perfect, including our prophets.

Scott, or whatever your real name is (BTW my real name isn't "Army" ;) ) I commend you for speaking out for exactly what others are thinking. :ymapplause: I, for one, am going through exactly what you are going through.

It's sad that you are getting so many ad hominem attacks from these people who either a) don't believe these truths b) assume Scott is an "anti-mormon" with a agenda to attack all of us or c) they dismiss his findings and feelings and want to attack him to make him go away so that their life of convenience can continue without the need to research any real truths. Because if they did, their testimony and faith will crumble.

[BTH&T]

Any time someone feels hurt it is how they perceive the situation. This is an obvious fact. But, this doesn't take away from the fact that they were hurt. How else do we interact with the world and reality except through our perception..........
-Finrock

By following Christ and learning to be humble, submissive, long suffering.

It's not that we don't get hurt by others, it's how we react and behave when we are hurt.
Always keep an eternal perspective.

I have some experience in being hurt by others and with learning to forgive and to love. Of course there is a solution and there is a correct way of dealing with being hurt. Nothing the OP has said or claimed is insurmountable or eternally damning on the Church, it leaders, or the members. I don't disagree at all with what you are saying here.

But, to be clear, what I'm addressing is how the OP has been treated by others on this thread or the belittling and outright denial of his perceived pain and wounds. And, not just his, but anyone who has been hurt by things that Church has said, done, or policies that they have had.

I have yet to address the OP.
-Finrock

Not in disagreement with you, I for one may come across as offensive. No excuses, I usually don't filter much and say what I say.
As for this particular OP I do not see much in attacks, more skepticism.

There are no doubts that many have "crisis of faith", I have as well. We are here to experience life and it's ups and downs.

It's just hard for me to understand those that question the Gospel, because of the Church.
Isn't it understood that all people are imperfect and thus all things that people do are mistake prone?
How does that relate to losing faith in the Church?
I know I sound simple here, but when you have a witness of truth, why question what you already know?

Arn't you putting the imperfections of men as more trustworthy and critical than the perfect plan of God?

i.e. If the Book of Mormon was brought forth by the power of God and is true, that the Gospel was restored and you have a witness that the Savior is the redeemer and established His Church.

What else really matters?
What gets in the way other than our own pride?

[BTH&T]

I reach out to you and judgement is what you give me.

Listen to the words of my very first post:
I feel betrayed, deceived and hurt.

These aren't the words of an "anti-mormon" or "this kind of newbie".
I finally have the courage to open myself up and become vulnerable and this is how you treat me.

Very sorry if I have offended you personally.
With my limited time here (I've come and gone some) I have become very skeptical of posts like yours.
Not because you feel hurt or betrayed, but it has been hard for me to understand others and their feelings of the Church.
I am not judging you, I am simply expressing my lack of understanding. I am similar to you in age and experiences listed.
The thing I find difficult is understanding where the problem is? To me I see no real issue. Where is the betrayal, deceit and hurt?

Mankind is very flawed, an enemy to God. So why are we so concerned over the flaws of man? What does that have to do with the Gospel?
I have had many experiences of mistreatment and unfairness (at least I thought so), but that is separate from The true and living Gospel!

Here is a responses I stated earlier:
"Seems to me that many want to pick and choose what they like in The Lords Church and what they take offense with.
Not trying to be judgmental nor uncompassionate but what is with all the issues that are problems?
Polygamy? Tithing? Prophets speaking for the Lord at the head of HIS Church, how money is spent or not spent.
I have my problems like all do, but I have a hard time understanding how one can have a witness to the
truthfulness of the Savior and the Book of Mormon and let all these other things bring us down.
What am I missing? I know what I know and it makes these other things nothing less than insignificant.
Once one gains a witness, why ask over and over again?"

Again this is not to question you or your feelings. I really want to understand whats really the problem because this seems so cut and dry to me.

[eddie]

Scott,
Please forgive us if we are skeptical, this format will cause one to do that, however have you considered our feelings? There are people here looking for the truth and the Church of Jesus Christ is the restored gospel on the earth today. We want to share it with them, not focus on the mortal failings of anyone, that is not the point, however I'm sure they already know. The truth allows one to be merciful of others faults, even with imperfections, after all aren't we all sinners?

[FTC]

Welcome to the aspect of the church that will never be taught in Sunday school, much less allowed to discuss. Various things that 20, 30, 40+ years ago, would have got you on church disciplinary probation, possibly right at the edge of excommunication, but now, its casually brushed aside as "We've always known that stuff; you should have just looked harder".
The solution? Faith. There really is no other way about it. And it can be a very hard pill to choke down. Worse than a cinnamon spoon challenge, or drink a whole cup of chili pepper powder at the restaurant. The more you find out, the more faith you have to muster in hopes that it will be all Ok. Since back then they didn't have high quality recording methods like we do now, we just have to hope that it will all make sense when everything is shouted from the rooftops - Joseph Smith's collection of sins included.

My own personal take? Joseph Smith seriously was screwing up big time near the end of his life. He was puffing himself up way too much in his pride, and really going overboard. Its not surprising at all that many were heavily raising their eyebrows and wondering what the wacked out he was doing. He is the only leader that has been nailed under the "never permit me or any other man who stands as President of the church to lead you astray ... the Lord would remove ... any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray" - he really went too far. Once Joseph got on the other side, he got a seriously fierce *ss whipping from God.
If you think the Joseph Smith stuff is hard to deal with, you have a long, long ways to go.......

[NOWmormon]

Just want to throw this out there, but how does minimizing this brother's crisis of faith help him? How does it help you?

If the OP is sincere he can visit with his dad, bishop, sunday school president. hometeacher, close friend, old seminary teacher, stake president, EQP, sister missionaries at the visitors center.....

Not true. Apparently I would be judged before I even got my first thought out.

Look at some of the comments I received just from my one post:

These kinds of newbies should be thankful that the Lord loves them more than they love Him.

Where've you been? None of this is new.

Half a century in the church and you still don't have a testimony.

I really don't believe his story.

This looks to be another attempt to cause contention and doubt.
Satan loves to stir up contention and doubt.

Scott didn't come here to learn anything. He just wrote some stuff for shock value and boogied.

The guy claims to be a member for more than 50 years and this is the first he's heard about this stuff?? Has he been living in his Mothers internet-less basement??

People like "Scott" do not have a testimony of the restored gospel.

If 'Scott' is actually sincere, then I'm sorry his faith in the Gospel was so fragile and I'm sorry that he's looking now to sow discontent among other members as well.