Are you a NOW mormon?

[AI2.0]

That part of Jonah's story is removed from Finrock's Bible therefore it didn't happen.

As I've said before, I don't recognize your interpretation of scripture and of events. I believe you are misinterpreting these parts of the scriptures which you are using to define a God that is vindictive, punitive, a forcer, and a coercer. That is the type of God you wish to believe in and so that is what you will read and understand. Until you are ready to learn something different, you will reinforce your beliefs regardless of what has been written or said. That is fine. We are all on our own journeys. I can only testify of what I know. If the Spirit carries my words to your heart, wonderful. If not, then so be it. Eventually all will know what type of God lives. May His knowledge flow unto you "without compulsory means".

-Finrock

Your understanding is limited because you reject anything that doesn't fit your mindset, thus you never grow beyond your own capacity to comprehend. It's a form of intellectual pride.

Not that you care what I think, but I'll say it anyway. At least you can't say someone didn't at least try to get through....

[Finrock]

That part of Jonah's story is removed from Finrock's Bible therefore it didn't happen.

As I've said before, I don't recognize your interpretation of scripture and of events. I believe you are misinterpreting these parts of the scriptures which you are using to define a God that is vindictive, punitive, a forcer, and a coercer. That is the type of God you wish to believe in and so that is what you will read and understand. Until you are ready to learn something different, you will reinforce your beliefs regardless of what has been written or said. That is fine. We are all on our own journeys. I can only testify of what I know. If the Spirit carries my words to your heart, wonderful. If not, then so be it. Eventually all will know what type of God lives. May His knowledge flow unto you "without compulsory means".

-Finrock

Your understanding is limited because you reject anything that doesn't fit your mindset, thus you never grow beyond your own capacity to comprehend. It's a form of intellectual pride.

Not that you care what I think, but I'll say it anyway. At least you can't say someone didn't at least try to get through....

Rather than engage the content, you decided to go after me personally and to judge my character. Why? Rhetorical question, but ask yourself that.

Look, I used to believe like you, AI2.0. So, you can't say that I haven't changed my views. I changed my views from what you currently believe to what I know now because of first hand experiences with God. God changed my mind.

But, what is it that you want to get through to me? Think about this for a second...you are saying that I'm intellectually prideful because I reject your beliefs that God is coercive, vindictive, punitive, and forces His will upon us? So, if I accept your understanding, I will no longer be intellectually prideful? Or, have you gained access to my heart and my mind and you know where I stand? No, AI2.0, you don't know what you are saying. You are not in a position to judge my character or anything of the sort.

In any case, I know my understanding is limited. There are many things I don't know or things that I only know in part. But, there are some things I do know. All I can speak to are the things that I know. I know God is good, kind, gentle, loving, empathetic, understanding, and respects our agency absolutely. I also know that God does not manipulate, coerce, or force His will upon His children. He uses persuasion and long suffering. He is a God of Love.

Just as I said to shadow, we are all on our own journeys here and you have your journey. You are where you are on the path. I am going to speak to what I know but I'm not going to lose any sleep or judge you to be prideful because you don't accept my words. Its my job to testify. Its the Spirit's job to convince and to confirm.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

AI2.0, and all

Your understanding is limited because you reject anything that doesn't fit your mindset, thus you never grow beyond your own capacity to comprehend. It's a form of intellectual pride.

Not that you care what I think, but I'll say it anyway. At least you can't say someone didn't at least try to get through....

I see that I am not the only one who has beaten his head against this rock. Give it up. Even if you lead him step by step through his fallacious reasoning he will just go back and repeat himself, just like his heroes, that he is always so quick to defend like Amonhi, and Robert Sinclair, and any other sniper that jumps onto this board and takes shots at our beliefs.

However, don't you dare suggest that any of his views are contrary to LDS doctrine, because he will get angry and declare vehemently that in reality he is a traditional TBM, but don't expect his rhetoric to match his claim!

Regards,

George Clay

[shadow]

That part of Jonah's story is removed from Finrock's Bible therefore it didn't happen.

As I've said before, I don't recognize your interpretation of scripture and of events. I believe you are misinterpreting these parts of the scriptures which you are using to define a God that is vindictive, punitive, a forcer, and a coercer.

-Finrock

Go back and tell me how I should be interpreting those scriptures, including, but NOT limited to this one-

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

It seems quite plain and precious.

[Finrock]

AI2.0, and all

Your understanding is limited because you reject anything that doesn't fit your mindset, thus you never grow beyond your own capacity to comprehend. It's a form of intellectual pride.

Not that you care what I think, but I'll say it anyway. At least you can't say someone didn't at least try to get through....

I see that I am not the only one who has beaten his head against this rock. Give it up. Even if you lead him step by step through his fallacious reasoning he will just go back and repeat himself, just like his heroes, that he is always so quick to defend like Amonhi, and Robert Sinclair, and any other sniper that jumps onto this board and takes shots at our beliefs.

However, don't you dare suggest that any of his views are contrary to LDS doctrine, because he will get angry and declare vehemently that in reality he is a traditional TBM, but don't expect his rhetoric to match his claim!

Regards,

George Clay

You attacking me personally doesn't reflect on me at all. When a person, during a discussion, begins to attack another person's character and to accuse them and so forth, it means in all instances when this occurs, that the person doing the attacking is feeling insecure or they are reacting as a result of core negative beliefs about themselves. You are not actually speaking about me, George, when you attack me personally. Instead, you are revealing your own heart and your own mind. Your words are more about you than they are of me. It is important that you and others understand this. This is true in all situations where individuals begin to judge and attack another person personally in the course of a discussion. It reflects who in reality is feeling frustrated and upset.

You have yet, not even in one instance, demonstrated in a fair and logical way how my reasoning is wrong. You have asserted that you have, many times, and patted yourself on the back for destroying straw men you have created, and you have attacked me personally, but not once have you through the rules of reasonable discourse demonstrated how my reasoning fails. In this particular instance, you don't even know what my reasoning is because you haven't asked nor have you been interested in understanding my perspective, which is okay, but it is important to point this fact out so that it can be know.

Not once have I been angry on these forums...not even a little. You can't speak for me and my heart, you can only speak for you and your heart.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

That part of Jonah's story is removed from Finrock's Bible therefore it didn't happen.

As I've said before, I don't recognize your interpretation of scripture and of events. I believe you are misinterpreting these parts of the scriptures which you are using to define a God that is vindictive, punitive, a forcer, and a coercer.

-Finrock

Go back and tell me how I should be interpreting those scriptures, including, but NOT limited to this one-

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

It seems quite plain and precious.

Thanks for asking me to share how I interpret these types of scriptures. I will be happy to share my understanding of things based on my experiences. We don't have to agree in order to understand one another. When I can I will answer more thoroughly.

-Finrock

[djinwa]

You have yet, not even in one instance, demonstrated in a fair and logical way how my reasoning is wrong........... but not once have you through the rules of reasonable discourse demonstrated how my reasoning fails. In this particular instance, you don't even know what my reasoning is.........
-Finrock

Actually, religion is based on faith, not reason. It is based on feelings. Which is why there are so many opinions on every subject, and each verse of scripture can be interpreted in countless ways.

I actually don't know why we even bother discussing religious matters, as we are eventually told to pray and find out for yourself - i.e. see how you feel. And avoid any source of information that might give you the wrong feeling.

[Spaced_Out]

That part of Jonah's story is removed from Finrock's Bible therefore it didn't happen.

As I've said before, I don't recognize your interpretation of scripture and of events. I believe you are misinterpreting these parts of the scriptures which you are using to define a God that is vindictive, punitive, a forcer, and a coercer. That is the type of God you wish to believe in and so that is what you will read and understand. Until you are ready to learn something different, you will reinforce your beliefs regardless of what has been written or said. That is fine. We are all on our own journeys. I can only testify of what I know. If the Spirit carries my words to your heart, wonderful. If not, then so be it. Eventually all will know what type of God lives. May His knowledge flow unto you "without compulsory means".

-Finrock

The problem is that "Finrock: has progressed to be perfect and no longer has any sins so only feels the love and healing from the hand of the Lord. I get chastised and punished weekly for my many failings....

Doctrine and Covenants 95:1-2,10
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you whom I love, and whom I love I also chasten that their sins may be forgiven, for with the chastisement I prepare a way for their deliverance in all things out of temptation, and I have loved you—

Isaiah:Chapter 29
10 And the young men that were brought up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou answer the people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it somewhat lighter for us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father’s loins.
11 For whereas my father put a heavy yoke upon you, I will put more to your yoke: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

2 Chronicles 10:11,14
11 For whereas my father put a heavy yoke upon you, I will put more to your yoke: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

Jeremiah 31:18
18 ¶ I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

[Spaced_Out]

Doctrine and Covenants 90:36
36 But verily I say unto you, that I, the Lord, will contend with Zion, and plead with her strong ones, and chasten her until she overcomes and is clean before me.

Doctrine and Covenants 75:7
7 And I give unto him a new commission and a new commandment, in the which I, the Lord, chasten him for the murmurings of his heart;

Doctrine and Covenants 101:4-5,41
4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.

...Doctrine and Covenants 87:6
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all nations;


Doctrine and Covenants 98:21
21 Verily I say unto you, that I, the Lord, will chasten them and will do whatsoever I list, if they do not repent and observe all things whatsoever I have said unto them.

Doctrine and Covenants 103:4
4 And that those who call themselves after my name might be chastened for a little season with a sore and grievous chastisement, because they did not hearken altogether unto the precepts and commandments which I gave unto them.


Doctrine and Covenants 93:50
50 My servant Newel K. Whitney also, a bishop of my church, hath need to be chastened, and set in border his family, and see that they are more diligent and concerned at home, and pray always, or they shall be removed out of their place.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:27
27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

Doctrine and Covenants 64:8
8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.

Doctrine and Covenants 90:36
36 But verily I say unto you, that I, the Lord, will contend with Zion, and plead with her strong ones, and chasten her until she overcomes and is cclean before me.


Doctrine and Covenants 75:7
7 And I give unto him a new commission and a new commandment, in the which I, the Lord, chasten him for the murmurings of his heart;

Doctrine and Covenants 101:4-5,41
4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.

Doctrine and Covenants 87:6
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all nations;

Doctrine and Covenants 98:21
21 Verily I say unto you, that I, the Lord, will chasten them and will do whatsoever I list, if they do not repent and observe all things whatsoever I have said unto them.

Doctrine and Covenants 103:4
4 And that those who call themselves after my name might be chastened for a little season with a sore and grievous chastisement, because they did not hearken altogether unto the precepts and commandments which I gave unto them.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:50
50 My servant Newel K. Whitney also, a bishop of my church, hath need to be chastened, and set in border his family, and see that they are more diligent and concerned at home, and pray always, or they shall be removed out of their place.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:27
27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

Doctrine and Covenants 64:8
8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.

[AI2.0]

That part of Jonah's story is removed from Finrock's Bible therefore it didn't happen.

As I've said before, I don't recognize your interpretation of scripture and of events. I believe you are misinterpreting these parts of the scriptures which you are using to define a God that is vindictive, punitive, a forcer, and a coercer. That is the type of God you wish to believe in and so that is what you will read and understand. Until you are ready to learn something different, you will reinforce your beliefs regardless of what has been written or said. That is fine. We are all on our own journeys. I can only testify of what I know. If the Spirit carries my words to your heart, wonderful. If not, then so be it. Eventually all will know what type of God lives. May His knowledge flow unto you "without compulsory means".

-Finrock

Your understanding is limited because you reject anything that doesn't fit your mindset, thus you never grow beyond your own capacity to comprehend. It's a form of intellectual pride.

Not that you care what I think, but I'll say it anyway. At least you can't say someone didn't at least try to get through....

Rather than engage the content, you decided to go after me personally and to judge my character. Why? Rhetorical question, but ask yourself that.

I didn't judge your character, I told you an observation which I've noticed from dealing with you in discussions. I don't know you,
other than our interactions here so I know little about your character. If someone tells me I talk over people or I need to be a better listener, I don't feel they are judging my character, they are telling me something that they have observed about how I interact and if I choose to, I can learn from what they share.

Look, I used to believe like you, AI2.0. So, you can't say that I haven't changed my views. I changed my views from what you currently believe to what I know now because of first hand experiences with God. God changed my mind. From this I am reading that you used to believe like me, but now you know better because God taught you. You've evolved.. Can't argue with that.

But, what is it that you want to get through to me? Think about this for a second...you are saying that I'm intellectually prideful because I reject your beliefs that God is coercive, vindictive, punitive, and forces His will upon us? So, if I accept your understanding, I will no longer be intellectually prideful? Or, have you gained access to my heart and my mind and you know where I stand? No, AI2.0, you don't know what you are saying. You are not in a position to judge my character or anything of the sort.I'm not judging your character. You're trying to suggest my position--which you claim is that I believe God is coercive, vindictive, punitive and forces his will on us. As usual, you are misrepresenting my position, but having gone down this rabbit hole with you in other discussions in the past, I know it's futile. I'll just state, for the record, that isn't what I believe. I already pointed out what I believe and anyone actually willing to read what I wrote and with some knowledge and understanding of the ways of God, will find it clear.

In any case, I know my understanding is limited. There are many things I don't know or things that I only know in part. But, there are some things I do know. All I can speak to are the things that I know. I know God is good, kind, gentle, loving, empathetic, understanding, and respects our agency absolutely. I also know that God does not manipulate, coerce, or force His will upon His children. He uses persuasion and long suffering. He is a God of Love. I just find it head scratchingly frustrating how we get in these bizarre discussions......

Just as I said to shadow, we are all on our own journeys here and you have your journey. You are where you are on the path. I am going to speak to what I know but I'm not going to lose any sleep or judge you to be prideful because you don't accept my words. Its my job to testify. Its the Spirit's job to convince and to confirm.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

AI2.0, and all

Your understanding is limited because you reject anything that doesn't fit your mindset, thus you never grow beyond your own capacity to comprehend. It's a form of intellectual pride.

Not that you care what I think, but I'll say it anyway. At least you can't say someone didn't at least try to get through....

I see that I am not the only one who has beaten his head against this rock. Give it up. Even if you lead him step by step through his fallacious reasoning he will just go back and repeat himself, just like his heroes, that he is always so quick to defend like Amonhi, and Robert Sinclair, and any other sniper that jumps onto this board and takes shots at our beliefs.

However, don't you dare suggest that any of his views are contrary to LDS doctrine, because he will get angry and declare vehemently that in reality he is a traditional TBM, but don't expect his rhetoric to match his claim!

Regards,

George Clay

Yep, I got sucked in..... again, and dang it I know better!!! :ymblushing: