Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

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Yahtzee
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Yahtzee »

WhereCanITurn4Peace wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 10:43 pm
Yahtzee wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 10:05 pm My mom and step dad are serving in a mission office in Canada and she tells me nearly every week that another missionary (or three) went home. The cause is nearly always anxiety. The office is near lds social services and she's shocked at how many missionaries need those services. She said it feels like Satan is working extra hard to exploit their weaknesses and the poor missionaries blame themselves when they really shouldn't. Many of them are affected by problems at home.
At a recent scout training meeting they quoted some stats (wish I had them) saying the same thing, most missionaries leave because of mental illness, then medical, then morality problems.
Yes, I have seen how the adversary uses anxiety and depression to impede spiritual progression. I also feel the Gads and other conspiring men have contaminated our food, water, air and earth with chemicals that harm us. It's sickening, literally!

One thing I have found that helps anxiety is a magnesium supplement, I use a powder and mix it in water to drink. Most of us don't get enough because our soil is depleted and due to the aforementioned chemicals. Magnesium deficiency may trigger 22 medical conditions including anxiety, depression, migraines, tooth decay, heart disease, diabetes, etc. Read more here:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... iency.aspx
Going off topic a bit, but maybe it'll help someone. YES!!! Nothing has done more for me overcoming post partum anxiety and depression than magnesium. I'm astounded, actually.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Robin Hood »

I have a question.
Is the "child of record" figure the number of 8 year olds baptised, or the number of new-borns (or other under 8's) blessed and entered on to the church records?

Sunain
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Sunain »

h_p wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:38 pm All I have are anecdotes, but my children are right in the mission-age group now, and this is a very sensitive topic in my family right now. My son said that half the missionaries who went home with him were going home early, including my son, who has since left the church because of his mission experience. My other son isn't wanting to go now, because of that.

Another missionary I'm close to has seen similar rates of early departure in his mission. He's got about 6 months left before he comes home, and he's the only person still out from his MTC group. They've all gone home early, and this elder very nearly quit out of discouragement last month.

Judging from the amount of attention the church seems to be giving to missionaries coming home early, I suspect this is pretty widespread. For my family personally, though, it's been an unmitigated disaster.
I sincerely hope that these young members of the church were told that any amount of time served is worthwhile. Many members of the church ostracize missionaries that come home 'early'. I do not like the term 'come home early'. Missionaries that return home are still treated by members of the church that they are failures and that definitely should not be the case but it is extremely unfortunate that this attitude persists.

President Holland addressed this issue last year.
https://www.lds.org/media-library/video ... s?lang=eng

Being a missionary is harder now than ever before. I am sorry to hear that it's been and issue for your family. A mission, regardless of the length, should be memories and experiences to cherish, not look back on with distaste and resentment. I personally believe too much emphasis is place on the culture of the church that every young man should serve a mission. It takes a lot of preparation mentally, spiritually and also physically to basically work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week for 2 years. World conditions add additional stress to the missionary experience.

Discouragement seems to be a huge issue with the missionaries right now and I really hope that the church reevaluates the number of times that missionaries can speak to their family and friends. In an age of communication, being cut-off just doesn't make any sense anymore. Parents, family members, friends, local church leaders and ward members could help be a source of encouragement on a more regular basis for these young missionaries. No such restriction applies to Senior missionaries.
Last edited by Sunain on April 3rd, 2017, 10:16 am, edited 3 times in total.

Sunain
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Sunain »

Robin Hood wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 11:55 pm I have a question.
Is the "child of record" figure the number of 8 year olds baptised, or the number of new-borns (or other under 8's) blessed and entered on to the church records?
Child of record
A child of record is a child (born to members or converts to the Church) who has not yet reached the age of 9. While the blessing of infants is not a saving ordinance and is not recorded on the Church's records, it is often used as the trigger for recording a birth and creating the new membership record for the child.

It is not necessary to have a child blessing to create a new child of record. This can be done for older children under 8 years of age at the request of the parents.

The child becomes an official member of the Church when he or she is baptized.
http://tech.lds.org/wiki/Child_of_record
A child of record is a baby or adopted child added to a family. I think its been about 20 years or so since they changed it. If I remember correctly, they used to announce the newly baptized child members of the church as part of the announced statistic, not the child of record as they do now. I guess part of this reason is they are most likely to become members of the church when they turn 8 and are already recorded as part of the sacrament meeting count and primary class count.

edit: Apparently I was literally right on the money when I guessed 20 years ago.
The category of "baptisms of children of record" (children on membership rolls who go on to be baptized) was dropped from LDS statistical reports after 1997. A review of statistics from years when both figures were published demonstrates that the number of children of record baptized is always significantly less than the increase of children of record. The unreported discrepancy between the increase of children of record and those that go on to baptism suggests that the crisis of low natural LDS growth is even more severe than that suggested by children of record statistics alone.
http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target ... tory_id=11
It seems like it's a way to pad the stats now. :-\

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Rose Garden
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Rose Garden »

I would say the decline in growth is a clear message that the idea to send men and women out at younger ages was ill-advised. I think it's foolish to blame other influences for the failure. Doing so eliminates the possibility of self reflection and self correction. By the sound of it from this thread, the best thing that this change can do is be such a complete failure that the church rethinks it's missionary preparation.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Spaced_Out »

Silver wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:08 pm Our growth rate may be slowing, but apparently the same is true of other Christian churches.

https://thelightnc.hellobeautiful.com/8 ... n-the-u-s/

What Are The Fastest Growing Churches In The U.S. ?

Melissa Wade

The two fastest-growing church bodies in the United States and Canada, according to a newly published report, are ones whose beliefs are known to conflict with traditional Christian teaching.

Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, regarded by many Christians as cults, reported the largest membership increases in a year, according to the National Council of Churches’ 2008 Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches.

Although Jehovah’s Witnesses currently rank 25th in size with over 1.06 million members, they reported a 2.25 percent increase in membership since the publication of the 2007 Yearbook. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – also known as the Mormon church – grew 1.56 percent and is listed by the NCC as the fourth largest “church.”
I think Islam is the fastest growing religion. In Australia most christian churches are shrinking at an alarming rate, many are actual going broke.

Welcome To Londonistan: 423 New Mosques; 500 Closed Churches
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-0 ... d-churches
Above all, Londonistan, with its new 423 mosques, is built on the sad ruins of English Christianity.

The Hyatt United Church was bought by the Egyptian community to be converted to a mosque. St Peter's Church has been converted into the Madina Mosque. The Brick Lane Mosque was built on a former Methodist church. Not only buildings are converted, but also people. The number of converts to Islam has doubled; often they embrace radical Islam, as with Khalid Masood, the terrorist who struck Westminster.

The Daily Mail published photographs of a church and a mosque a few meters from each other in the heart of London. At the Church of San Giorgio, designed to accommodate 1,230 worshipers, only 12 people gathered to celebrate Mass. At the Church of Santa Maria, there were 20.

The nearby Brune Street Estate mosque has a different problem: overcrowding. Its small room and can contain only 100. On Friday, the faithful must pour into the street to pray. Given the current trends, Christianity in England is becoming a relic, while Islam will be the religion of the future.

In Birmingham, the second-largest British city, where many jihadists live and orchestrate their attacks, an Islamic minaret dominates the sky. There are petitions to allow British mosques to call the Islamic faithful to prayer on loudspeakers three times a day.

By 2020, estimates are that the number of Muslims attending prayers will reach at least 683,000, while the number of Christians attending weekly Mass will drop to 679,000. "The new cultural landscape of English cities has arrived; the homogenised, Christian landscape of state religion is in retreat", said Ceri Peach of Oxford University. While nearly half of British Muslims are under the age of 25, a quarter of Christians are over 65. "In another 20 years there are going to be more active Muslims than there are churchgoers," said Keith Porteous Wood, director of the National Secular Society.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Spaced_Out »

Meili wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 4:52 am I would say the decline in growth is a clear message that the idea to send men and women out at younger ages was ill-advised. I think it's foolish to blame other influences for the failure. Doing so eliminates the possibility of self reflection and self correction. By the sound of it from this thread, the best thing that this change can do is be such a complete failure that the church rethinks it's missionary preparation.
Percentage convert baptisms has declined for more than a decade prior to missionary age being changed. I also think it is more about the individual missionary than the baptisms - they need to get out earlier to stay active.

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h_p
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by h_p »

Sunain wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 1:57 am Discouragement seems to be a huge issue with the missionaries right now and I really hope that the church reevaluates the number of times that missionaries can speak to their family and friends. In an age of communication, being cut-off just doesn't make any sense anymore. Parents, family members, friends, local church leaders and ward members could help be a source of encouragement on a more regular basis for these young missionaries. No such restriction applies to Senior missionaries.
This is what bothers me the most about this policy. The church says this restriction is in place because the missionaries are to be fully consecrated to service. But if that were true, then either senior missionaries are not consecrated the same way, or they're lying. I know a senior couple who was even allowed to fly home from out of country to attend a grandchild's wedding. Young missionaries are expected to stay in their mission even if their dad died.
WhereCanITurn4Peace wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:55 pm Although I suspect I know the answer...what is causing so many missionaries to come home early?
Probably a combination of several things: 1) we've practically weaponized this idea that if a missionary doesn't baptize more, it's because he's doing something wrong. This was even the case on my mission (my president would gather us all together and then berate us "WHY ARE YOU ROBBING THE BLESSINGS FROM MY PEOPLE??" until we all felt like going out and hanging ourselves, 2) baptisms per missionary are about half what they were 30 years ago, and 3) boredom, anxiety, depression, not mentally ready for life on a mission, etc.

It's clear (at least from my son's mission) that for #1, things haven't gotten any better since the time I served. Blaming the missionary is practically church doctrine, and an occasional conference talk obliquely addressing the issue isn't going to change it.

DesertWonderer
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by DesertWonderer »

WhereCanITurn4Peace wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:55 pm
h_p wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:38 pm All I have are anecdotes, but my children are right in the mission-age group now, and this is a very sensitive topic in my family right now. My son said that half the missionaries who went home with him were going home early, including my son, who has since left the church because of his mission experience. My other son isn't wanting to go now, because of that.

Another missionary I'm close to has seen similar rates of early departure in his mission. He's got about 6 months left before he comes home, and he's the only person still out from his MTC group. They've all gone home early, and this elder very nearly quit out of discouragement last month.

Judging from the amount of attention the church seems to be giving to missionaries coming home early, I suspect this is pretty widespread. For my family personally, though, it's been an unmitigated disaster.
So sorry to see the struggles your son and family are dealing with, h_p :( Although I suspect I know the answer...what is causing so many missionaries to come home early?

My husband came home early from his mission due to illness. The mission presidents' wife was really hard on my husband because he was trying to heal himself naturally with herbs instead of traditional medicine.
What was his illness and what do you mean when you say the MP's wife was really hard on him b/c hew was trying to heal himself naturally?

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Rose Garden
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Rose Garden »

Spaced_Out wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 5:02 am
Meili wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 4:52 am I would say the decline in growth is a clear message that the idea to send men and women out at younger ages was ill-advised. I think it's foolish to blame other influences for the failure. Doing so eliminates the possibility of self reflection and self correction. By the sound of it from this thread, the best thing that this change can do is be such a complete failure that the church rethinks it's missionary preparation.
Percentage convert baptisms has declined for more than a decade prior to missionary age being changed. I also think it is more about the individual missionary than the baptisms - they need to get out earlier to stay active.
Right. But sending the missionaries out earlier was supposed to "hasten the work," which obviously isn't happening since the numbers are still declining. If h_p's experience is typical, sending out the missionaries younger is actually hastening their departure from the church instead. Overall, it sounds like a pretty poor decision.

Finrock
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Finrock »

Silver wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 8:58 am Are you familiar with the work and writings of Rodney Stark, a non-member sociologist? A few decades ago he predicted an LDS growth rate and membership statistics that fellow sociologists and other religious groups disputed. Turned out he was wrong. The Church grew faster than he forecasted.

Lately though it seems we are getting the same approximate 300k increase in membership year after year.

Announced in General Conference yesterday:
CHURCH MEMBERSHIP
Total membership 15,882,417
New children of record 109,246
Converts baptized 240,131

MISSIONARIES
Full-time missionaries 70,946
Church-service missionaries 33,695

The Hastening brought many more missionaries into the field in a short amount of time, but the effort has not resulted in markedly increased convert baptisms. My testimony of divine revelation and inspired leadership has not been shaken. I think that it is simply getting harder and harder for people to be converted in an increasingly wicked world. Of course, and I'm guilty of this, most latter-day Saints need to do more to support the full-time missionaries.
To me the more important question or concern is how many people are converted to Jesus Christ in a year?

When we equate joining the Church with being converted to Jesus Christ we can get skewed results and can make wrong assumptions. First, all who join the Church are not necessarily all who are converted to Christ. Second, all who don't join the Church does not necessarily equate to people who have not been converted to Christ.

I suppose it's nice to have many members, but most important above that is having people who are converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ or those who are converted to Jesus Christ. Who is converted to Christ is a harder number to pin down because it can't reliably be quantified.

-Finrock

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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Finrock »

Sunain wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 1:57 am
h_p wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:38 pm All I have are anecdotes, but my children are right in the mission-age group now, and this is a very sensitive topic in my family right now. My son said that half the missionaries who went home with him were going home early, including my son, who has since left the church because of his mission experience. My other son isn't wanting to go now, because of that.

Another missionary I'm close to has seen similar rates of early departure in his mission. He's got about 6 months left before he comes home, and he's the only person still out from his MTC group. They've all gone home early, and this elder very nearly quit out of discouragement last month.

Judging from the amount of attention the church seems to be giving to missionaries coming home early, I suspect this is pretty widespread. For my family personally, though, it's been an unmitigated disaster.
I sincerely hope that these young members of the church were told that any amount of time served is worthwhile. Many members of the church ostracize missionaries that come home 'early'. I do not like the term 'come home early'. Missionaries that return home are still treated by members of the church that they are failures and that is definitely not the case but it is extremely unfortunate that this attitude persists.

President Holland addressed this issue last year.
https://www.lds.org/media-library/video ... s?lang=eng

Being a missionary is harder now than ever before. I am sorry to hear that it's been and issue for your family. A mission, regardless of the length, should be memories and experiences to cherish, not look back on with distaste and resentment. I personally believe too much emphasis is place on the culture of the church that every young man should serve a mission. It takes a lot of preparation mentally, spiritually and also physically to basically work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week for 2 years. World conditions add additional stress to the missionary experience.

Discouragement seems to be a huge issue with the missionaries right now and I really hope that the church reevaluates the number of times that missionaries can speak to their family and friends. In an age of communication, being cut-off just doesn't make any sense anymore. Parents, family members, friends, local church leaders and ward members could help be a source of encouragement on a more regular basis for these young missionaries. No such restriction applies to Senior missionaries.
I think much of the issues arise because of a loss of focus on what is really happening. Going on a mission has become more about fulfilling a tradition and sort of like a rite of passage. When young people are not converted to Christ and are not engaged in the work for the right reasons, then what rock do they have on which to anchor their commitment on? Those who work for Jesus because of their love for Him (as opposed to anything else, including the Church) are more inclined to be sustained because they will be working with assistance and will be motivated by love of Christ and not things that ultimately cannot fulfill or which do not really matter. Missionaries who are working with Jesus by their side will experience failure in various degrees but it will be swallowed up by Christ and they will have their heartache and all the negative working out for their good.

-Finrock

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WhereCanITurn4Peace
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by WhereCanITurn4Peace »

DesertWonderer wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 8:03 am
WhereCanITurn4Peace wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:55 pm
h_p wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:38 pm All I have are anecdotes, but my children are right in the mission-age group now, and this is a very sensitive topic in my family right now. My son said that half the missionaries who went home with him were going home early, including my son, who has since left the church because of his mission experience. My other son isn't wanting to go now, because of that.

Another missionary I'm close to has seen similar rates of early departure in his mission. He's got about 6 months left before he comes home, and he's the only person still out from his MTC group. They've all gone home early, and this elder very nearly quit out of discouragement last month.

Judging from the amount of attention the church seems to be giving to missionaries coming home early, I suspect this is pretty widespread. For my family personally, though, it's been an unmitigated disaster.
So sorry to see the struggles your son and family are dealing with, h_p :( Although I suspect I know the answer...what is causing so many missionaries to come home early?

My husband came home early from his mission due to illness. The mission presidents' wife was really hard on my husband because he was trying to heal himself naturally with herbs instead of traditional medicine.
What was his illness and what do you mean when you say the MP's wife was really hard on him b/c hew was trying to heal himself naturally?
From what my husband has told me, she continuously berated him for using herbs instead of traditional medicine. Accused him of making himself worse. Sounded like she most likely is one of those that believes that the only way to get better is by going to a doctor and getting a prescription (which is appropriate in certain situations and her right), however my husband and his family worked with an experienced master herbalist (previously to his mission) to help heal members of the family who had illnesses that weren't healed through conventional medicine. It was a very disheartening and difficult experience for him.

I'm actually very grateful he has the knowledge of herbs that he does because he has helped our family with recommendations for certain herbs to cure ailments or sicknesses​ being dealt with.

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Yahtzee
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Yahtzee »

Meili wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 8:06 am
Spaced_Out wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 5:02 am
Meili wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 4:52 am I would say the decline in growth is a clear message that the idea to send men and women out at younger ages was ill-advised. I think it's foolish to blame other influences for the failure. Doing so eliminates the possibility of self reflection and self correction. By the sound of it from this thread, the best thing that this change can do is be such a complete failure that the church rethinks it's missionary preparation.
Percentage convert baptisms has declined for more than a decade prior to missionary age being changed. I also think it is more about the individual missionary than the baptisms - they need to get out earlier to stay active.
Right. But sending the missionaries out earlier was supposed to "hasten the work," which obviously isn't happening since the numbers are still declining. If h_p's experience is typical, sending out the missionaries younger is actually hastening their departure from the church instead. Overall, it sounds like a pretty poor decision.
They tested it in other areas first before extending it to the whole church. What they found was letting them go earlier increased the odds of those missionaries staying active and marrying in the temple.
Also, since the marriage age is increasing, they didn't want sisters leaving when elders their age were getting home.
I'll have to verify with my mom, but from what she's said I think it's mostly US missionaries going home early.

RAB
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by RAB »

Z2100 wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 9:56 pm Nephi explained that the size of the membership of the church would be relatively small until the second coming...
Yes, this. He said that though the Church would cover the whole earth, which is pretty much does, the numbers would be small in comparison. I don't see mass conversion to the Church happening until after the second coming, when those who have been blinded by the craftiness of men will have that stripped away and be able to see the truth for what it is. What a great time that will be to be a missionary!

As for missionaries coming home early, that is truly heartbreaking. Some of that can surely be attributed to a difficult field in which to work, but I read studies in general about youth that they are less resilient than previous generations, both inside and outside of the Church. Whether LDS or not, they have not learned how to stick with hard things and work it out. I know my kids are much more privileged than I was as a kid. It is tricky teaching them how to work, how to stick through hard things, and find that only after that work do we find the blessings of our labors. Many times it is just easier to do it yourself. However, my mother was great about requiring real cleanliness or making us do it again. Sooner or later, we learned that it was just easier to do it right the first time rather than have her make us do it, and re-do it, and re-do it again. We parents need to teach our kids to work hard. I have witnessed way too many kids that do nothing in chores compared to what I was doing at their age. Their chore is to empty the dishwasher and we want to pin a medal on them. I was vacuuming the whole house, doing my own laundry, cleaning bathrooms, mopping the kitchen floor, washing dishes by hand, cooking meals, chopping firewood, and pulling weeds all day long.

When things, go wrong, they need to know that is part of life. One of the mantra's I like to say is, "Life sucks, and then you die." Now, I don't really believe life sucks, and I do point out the positive, but I also want them to know that life isn't all sunshine and roses, and it wasn't meant to be. If they are not uncomfortable, they are not growing as they need to be. I believe what many kids are lacking is a work ethic and a realism concerning what it takes to succeed. For too long they have been told that they are wonderful and every minor effort is rewarded like they won the nobel peace prize or something. It is the generation of trophies for participating and self-esteem over self-control that is causing them to fail in college, in work, in really any situation where things start getting difficult. Our YM group started doing activities to teach the YM that they could do hard things...like hiking 50 miles in 24 hours. None of those young men gave up, and that will be something they can draw strength from. In short, children have been given a life of ease and lied to that they were great at everything they ever did...and they are suffering for it. They need an injection of hard work and reality.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Rose Garden »

Finrock wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 8:21 am
Silver wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 8:58 am Are you familiar with the work and writings of Rodney Stark, a non-member sociologist? A few decades ago he predicted an LDS growth rate and membership statistics that fellow sociologists and other religious groups disputed. Turned out he was wrong. The Church grew faster than he forecasted.

Lately though it seems we are getting the same approximate 300k increase in membership year after year.

Announced in General Conference yesterday:
CHURCH MEMBERSHIP
Total membership 15,882,417
New children of record 109,246
Converts baptized 240,131

MISSIONARIES
Full-time missionaries 70,946
Church-service missionaries 33,695

The Hastening brought many more missionaries into the field in a short amount of time, but the effort has not resulted in markedly increased convert baptisms. My testimony of divine revelation and inspired leadership has not been shaken. I think that it is simply getting harder and harder for people to be converted in an increasingly wicked world. Of course, and I'm guilty of this, most latter-day Saints need to do more to support the full-time missionaries.
To me the more important question or concern is how many people are converted to Jesus Christ in a year?

When we equate joining the Church with being converted to Jesus Christ we can get skewed results and can make wrong assumptions. First, all who join the Church are not necessarily all who are converted to Christ. Second, all who don't join the Church does not necessarily equate to people who have not been converted to Christ.

I suppose it's nice to have many members, but most important above that is having people who are converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ or those who are converted to Jesus Christ. Who is converted to Christ is a harder number to pin down because it can't reliably be quantified.

-Finrock
When I was 24 I had what I consider my conversion to Christ. It was a wonderful experience and I wanted to share it with others of my faith but found that church members generally did not care to hear it. When they sought conversion stories, they wanted to hear about people joining the church. I agree with your sentiments here.

RAB
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by RAB »

Yahtzee wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 10:17 am
Meili wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 8:06 am
Spaced_Out wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 5:02 am
Meili wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 4:52 am I would say the decline in growth is a clear message that the idea to send men and women out at younger ages was ill-advised. I think it's foolish to blame other influences for the failure. Doing so eliminates the possibility of self reflection and self correction. By the sound of it from this thread, the best thing that this change can do is be such a complete failure that the church rethinks it's missionary preparation.
Percentage convert baptisms has declined for more than a decade prior to missionary age being changed. I also think it is more about the individual missionary than the baptisms - they need to get out earlier to stay active.
Right. But sending the missionaries out earlier was supposed to "hasten the work," which obviously isn't happening since the numbers are still declining. If h_p's experience is typical, sending out the missionaries younger is actually hastening their departure from the church instead. Overall, it sounds like a pretty poor decision.
They tested it in other areas first before extending it to the whole church. What they found was letting them go earlier increased the odds of those missionaries staying active and marrying in the temple.
Also, since the marriage age is increasing, they didn't want sisters leaving when elders their age were getting home.
I'll have to verify with my mom, but from what she's said I think it's mostly US missionaries going home early.
I think it was inspired. The year between 18 and 19 for a YM, is when we lose a lot of YM. Now, some of them will still leave the Church after serving a mission, but retention of those ages has been much better. I served 20 years ago, and some of my companions are now inactive, so I don't think you can pin that on age...I think you pin that on testimony and conversion. Sadly some missionaries are not converted, and I am sure that is what parents are hoping for when they send them. I also love that the YW can go at 19 now, because I have a daughter who wants to serve a mission, and when it was 21 I didn't think she would ever make it. Now, I am quite confident she will.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Rose Garden »

Yahtzee wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 10:17 am
Meili wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 8:06 am
Spaced_Out wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 5:02 am
Meili wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 4:52 am I would say the decline in growth is a clear message that the idea to send men and women out at younger ages was ill-advised. I think it's foolish to blame other influences for the failure. Doing so eliminates the possibility of self reflection and self correction. By the sound of it from this thread, the best thing that this change can do is be such a complete failure that the church rethinks it's missionary preparation.
Percentage convert baptisms has declined for more than a decade prior to missionary age being changed. I also think it is more about the individual missionary than the baptisms - they need to get out earlier to stay active.
Right. But sending the missionaries out earlier was supposed to "hasten the work," which obviously isn't happening since the numbers are still declining. If h_p's experience is typical, sending out the missionaries younger is actually hastening their departure from the church instead. Overall, it sounds like a pretty poor decision.
They tested it in other areas first before extending it to the whole church. What they found was letting them go earlier increased the odds of those missionaries staying active and marrying in the temple.
Also, since the marriage age is increasing, they didn't want sisters leaving when elders their age were getting home.
I'll have to verify with my mom, but from what she's said I think it's mostly US missionaries going home early.
I guess we'll know for sure over time. I personally don't believe most young people are ready for missions at all. They leave having little knowledge of their religion and are placed in a situation where they are pressured to perform. It can be a good experience for them but I think perhaps the overall impact is negative. I've seen missionaries browbeat investigators into accepting baptism. None of that has anything to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think the church would be better off focusing on sending out missionaries (of whatever age) who are converted to Christ and focusing more on conversion than baptism and membership in the church.
Last edited by Rose Garden on April 3rd, 2017, 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EdGoble
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by EdGoble »

JK4Woods wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 11:37 am Not sure the work is really being hastened.
What part of the work itself hasn't been hastened? The work itself, and the number of the soldiers in the army have been increased. It was just said that putting them in the same areas doesn't equal more converts. Why is it that the only indicator of hastening is a result of more converts? We hear the cliche (which is nevertheless true) all the time about how the work is more about the missionaries themselves and their own conversion than about who they are able to convert. Zions Camp was much more about training and preparation of the leadership for the exodus from Illinois than it was about actually redeeming Zion at the time.

Why is the hastening about converts then? Why should it not be considered to be about the training and preparation of priesthood holders for something to come, or something that is already happening? The Google apostasy is mostly happening among the youth and young adults. Apparently, these missionaries themselves are in need of this, much more than the world is in need of a remarkable number of more converts instantly.

Something in the culture has changed drastically with Millennials, and they are in need of an extra amount of strengthening.

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shadow
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by shadow »

The youth of today are different than that of 10 years ago. They're typically ill prepared for life.

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shadow
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by shadow »

EdGoble wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 10:29 am
JK4Woods wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 11:37 am Not sure the work is really being hastened.
What part of the work itself hasn't been hastened? The work itself, and the number of the soldiers in the army have been increased. It was just said that putting them in the same areas doesn't equal more converts. Why is it that the only indicator of hastening is a result of more converts? We hear the cliche (which is nevertheless true) all the time about how the work is more about the missionaries themselves and their own conversion than about who they are able to convert. Zions Camp was much more about training and preparation of the leadership for the exodus from Illinois than it was about actually redeeming Zion at the time.

Why is the hastening about converts then? Why should it not be considered to be about the training and preparation of priesthood holders for something to come, or something that is already happening? The Google apostasy is mostly happening among the youth and young adults. Apparently, these missionaries themselves are in need of this, much more than the world is in need of a remarkable number of more converts instantly.

Something in the culture has changed drastically with Millennials, and they are in need of an extra amount of strengthening.
I was taught, on my mission, that the one soul is our own.

15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

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Joel
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Joel »

Lizzy60 wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 6:41 pm Re: the Holland remarks above:

I heard my Stake President, with my very own ears, tell our ward that in a meeting with the Area Authority they were told that the Church has a goal to create more Stakes out of the existing ones by realigning wards with about 75% of the current number of active members, and reorganizing Stakes with only 6-8 units instead of the current average of 10. Last September my Stake and another Stake were formed into 3 Stakes, with a realignment of some of the wards to create a few new wards. With the same number of members, we now have 3 additional wards, a new Stake, and no new buildings were needed or planned. We share a Stake Center for conferences, and use a ward building for stake offices.

As a second witness, my son was in the other Stake, and was told the very same information by his Stake President. There was no mystery about how and why we were forming a new Stake, and dividing wards.

I am a thousand-plus miles from the Mormon Corridor. I can only imagine all the new wards and Stakes that can be created in more densely LDS-populated areas.
Did your Stake president say what the Church's reason for making more stakes and wards out of the existing ones?

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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by RAB »

I think true growth only comes out of service. The more wards and stakes there are, the more opportunities there are to serve, rely on the spirit, and grow. Really big wards tend to limit growth opportunities for many people. That is just my guess, though.

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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by samizdat »

I see it as a problem of culture more so than anything else.

Parents aren´t preparing their younglings to go out on missions, then they expect them to go out right when they turn 18 (YM) or 19 (YW).

Hear what a Prophet of the Lord said when he announced the change in October of 2012.

I am pleased to announce that effective immediately all worthy and able young men who have graduated from high school or its equivalent, regardless of where they live, will have the option of being recommended for missionary service beginning at the age of 18, instead of age 19. I am not suggesting that all young men will—or should—serve at this earlier age. Rather, based on individual circumstances as well as upon a determination by priesthood leaders, this option is now available.

Concerning the young women he added:

As we have prayerfully pondered the age at which young men may begin their missionary service, we have also given consideration to the age at which a young woman might serve. Today I am pleased to announce that able, worthy young women who have the desire to serve may be recommended for missionary service beginning at age 19, instead of age 21.

We affirm that missionary work is a priesthood duty—and we encourage all young men who are worthy and who are physically able and mentally capable to respond to the call to serve. Many young women also serve, but they are not under the same mandate to serve as are the young men. We assure the young sisters of the Church, however, that they make a valuable contribution as missionaries, and we welcome their service.

So President Monson is telling the young men, serve when you are ready to do so. But it also rests on the PARENTS of said children to make the young men physically able and mentally capable to do so, through the art of preparation, an MTC if you will at home.

Too many people here in Mexico (where the 18 rule had been in effect for YEARS prior to the age change for all nations (2012)) have had that idea to send the missionaries out before they were ready to serve. That is akin to sending out your soldiers into the battlefield without their weapons or body armor not to mention their MREs. There are a few men that might be able to James Bond, Jack Bauer, or MacGuyver their way to the weapons during their time in the mission field, but there are very few. Too many people get burnt.

A common refrain among the parents are "hopefully by sending out my son now, I might be able to reform him, or better yet, the mission will reform him." Such was said by one parent of a brother that I knew. He came back two years later and he was even crazier than before, and his actions would get him disfellowed after 6 months back home. Other missionaries also similarly went on the mission before their ready time and without preparation, and similarly got disfellowed.

Finrock
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Finrock »

EdGoble wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 10:29 am
JK4Woods wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 11:37 am Not sure the work is really being hastened.
What part of the work itself hasn't been hastened? The work itself, and the number of the soldiers in the army have been increased. It was just said that putting them in the same areas doesn't equal more converts. Why is it that the only indicator of hastening is a result of more converts? We hear the cliche (which is nevertheless true) all the time about how the work is more about the missionaries themselves and their own conversion than about who they are able to convert. Zions Camp was much more about training and preparation of the leadership for the exodus from Illinois than it was about actually redeeming Zion at the time.

Why is the hastening about converts then? Why should it not be considered to be about the training and preparation of priesthood holders for something to come, or something that is already happening? The Google apostasy is mostly happening among the youth and young adults. Apparently, these missionaries themselves are in need of this, much more than the world is in need of a remarkable number of more converts instantly.

Something in the culture has changed drastically with Millennials, and they are in need of an extra amount of strengthening.
When the Church announced a few years ago the effort to "Hasten the Work" I felt in my own heart that this was more than just about baptizing more members in to the Church, even though many people spoke of it and still do as if this was about convert baptisms. In fact, I would say that getting people baptized in to the Church is only a small subset of the idea behind hastening the work.

God's work and His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Being baptized in to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints means just about nothing when it comes to speaking in terms of immortality and eternal life. Many are baptized who are yet to be converted to Jesus Christ and many will be in the future. There are many other reasons to join our organization that have nothing to do with being converted to Jesus Christ.

I felt impressed in my heart and mind that hastening the work was about becoming stronger in my conversion to Jesus Christ, about increasing my faith in Jesus Christ, about relying more on the Holy Spirit, and about increasing in the power of God in my life. All of these are tied to the great commandments of loving God and loving my neighbor. God's work is hastened when we have an increase of love for others. All of the work of the Church is to bring people to the point where they are baptized by the Spirit and receive the Holy Ghost, which Holy Ghost will fill us with love and with power. It is through being converted to Christ and to His gospel that we lay hold upon the promises of the gospel. It is how we lay hold on the power of the priesthood. Dead and empty ordinances, performed because of tradition and by mere ritual, have no efficacy. They are essentially dead. It is the actions and the performances of our daily lives which matter. Are we going about doing good because we love Christ and love others? It isn't about striving to do all the things a "good Mormon" should do, but it is about allowing Jesus Christ in to your life and watching Him do great things through you. We can't hasten jack, except for evil, unless we have Christ with us.

-Finrock
Last edited by Finrock on April 3rd, 2017, 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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