Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

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Lizzy60
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Lizzy60 »

Joel wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 10:53 am
Lizzy60 wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 6:41 pm Re: the Holland remarks above:

I heard my Stake President, with my very own ears, tell our ward that in a meeting with the Area Authority they were told that the Church has a goal to create more Stakes out of the existing ones by realigning wards with about 75% of the current number of active members, and reorganizing Stakes with only 6-8 units instead of the current average of 10. Last September my Stake and another Stake were formed into 3 Stakes, with a realignment of some of the wards to create a few new wards. With the same number of members, we now have 3 additional wards, a new Stake, and no new buildings were needed or planned. We share a Stake Center for conferences, and use a ward building for stake offices.

As a second witness, my son was in the other Stake, and was told the very same information by his Stake President. There was no mystery about how and why we were forming a new Stake, and dividing wards.

I am a thousand-plus miles from the Mormon Corridor. I can only imagine all the new wards and Stakes that can be created in more densely LDS-populated areas.
Did your Stake president say what the Church's reason for making more stakes and wards out of the existing ones?
I have not yet watched the video you linked above, but we were told that the reason was so that less-active members would feel more needed, and there would be callings available if/when they came back to church. Also that the active members would be more motivated to help less-actives reactivate if there was a need for them in ward callings. Also, more people would have a greater variety of callings if there are fewer people in each ward and stake. So, generally the purpose is to reactivate, and remotivate.

Tell them you need them, and they will come.

edited after watching the video ----- Elder Holland misplaced a decimal point here and there, that's all.
Last edited by Lizzy60 on April 3rd, 2017, 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Finrock
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Finrock »

h_p wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:29 am I do agree that those leaving for missions aren't always the best prepared, and it's more of a culture shock for them getting suddenly disconnected from the electronic world they grew up in than in my generation. But when the VAST majority of the difficulty of a mission comes from their own leadership, I don't think it's fair to the missionaries to blame them for not being strong enough.
Life is 10 percent circumstance and 90 percent attitude or perception.

For the most part, we all choose how we are going to react or perceive the circumstances we are in. There will be many times when we are in a position where we must submit to another, but no matter where we are in life, we have the freedom to be agents of Christ. We can be bound in prison and have our free will severely limited, yet our ability to represent Jesus Christ or anyone or anything else we choose cannot be taken from us. We always surrender our agency by choice when we surrender our agency.

-Finrock

Lizzy60
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Lizzy60 »

Finrock wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:43 am
h_p wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:29 am I do agree that those leaving for missions aren't always the best prepared, and it's more of a culture shock for them getting suddenly disconnected from the electronic world they grew up in than in my generation. But when the VAST majority of the difficulty of a mission comes from their own leadership, I don't think it's fair to the missionaries to blame them for not being strong enough.
Life is 10 percent circumstance and 90 percent attitude or perception.

For the most part, we all choose how we are going to react or perceive the circumstances we are in. There will be many times when we are in a position where we must submit to another, but no matter where we are in life, we have the freedom to be agents of Christ. We can be bound in prison and have our free will severely limited, yet our ability to represent Jesus Christ or anyone or anything else we choose cannot be taken from us. We always surrender our agency by choice when we surrender our agency.

-Finrock
I agree with your thoughts, but we are talking about teenagers being chided and reprimanded by some of the most "important" leaders in the church hierarchy. In my own life, I was taken into a room, alone, with a High Councilman, who then asked me what my husband and I were going to do to get our (RM, married with 4 children) son to start paying tithing again. He said that we needed to bear down in strong testimony and let him know the consequences of not paying tithing. I told him that we love our son, and allow him his agency.

Finrock
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Finrock »

Lizzy60 wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:52 am
Finrock wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:43 am
h_p wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:29 am I do agree that those leaving for missions aren't always the best prepared, and it's more of a culture shock for them getting suddenly disconnected from the electronic world they grew up in than in my generation. But when the VAST majority of the difficulty of a mission comes from their own leadership, I don't think it's fair to the missionaries to blame them for not being strong enough.
Life is 10 percent circumstance and 90 percent attitude or perception.

For the most part, we all choose how we are going to react or perceive the circumstances we are in. There will be many times when we are in a position where we must submit to another, but no matter where we are in life, we have the freedom to be agents of Christ. We can be bound in prison and have our free will severely limited, yet our ability to represent Jesus Christ or anyone or anything else we choose cannot be taken from us. We always surrender our agency by choice when we surrender our agency.

-Finrock
I agree with your thoughts, but we are talking about teenagers being chided and reprimanded by some of the most "important" leaders in the church hierarchy. In my own life, I was taken into a room, alone, with a High Councilman, who then asked me what my husband and I were going to do to get our (RM, married with 4 children) son to start paying tithing again. He said that we needed to bear down in strong testimony and let him know the consequences of not paying tithing. I told him that we love our son, and allow him his agency.
So, what is being said here? What does the "but" or the exception mean to you? Are you saying that because these are teenagers, they don't have their agency or somehow what I said doesn't apply? Sincere questions. :)

And, just to be clear, I'm not talking about all teenagers, I'm talking about individuals who are 18 years old or older.

EDIT: The difficulties in our life can come from all sorts of places, but regardless of the source of one's difficulty, the universal principles that I'm alluding to, still apply. Some of my most challenging and most arduous difficulties in my life came from within the home, from my parents.

-Finrock

Lizzy60
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Lizzy60 »

Finrock,

What I am saying is that a man, whose only qualification was a seat on the High Council, thought he could interrogate me on my relationship with my son, implying that I needed to straighten him out. I am the same age as this man, and have served in Stake positions for many years, and was a temple ordinance worker and in the Stake RS Presidency at the time he talked to me, yet he felt justified asserting a stewardship and authority over me that he did NOT have.

Your average 18-20 year old does not stand a chance in a relationship with his mission president. The MP has age, experience, stewardship over the missionaries in his mission, and a very high and valued church calling on his side, while the teenager has only what he has been taught by much less experience in the church. Unfortunately, what we are taught is that we are to yield to authority. Agency takes a backseat. If you don't believe that's what we are taught, you haven't walked in my shoes.

I believe in agency with all my being, BUT I also know that most MPs would completely come apart if they were told to give the Elders complete agency in how they serve.

Finrock
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Finrock »

Lizzy60 wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:22 pm Finrock,

What I am saying is that a man, whose only qualification was a seat on the High Council, thought he could interrogate me on my relationship with my son, implying that I needed to straighten him out. I am the same age as this man, and have served in Stake positions for many years, and was a temple ordinance worker and in the Stake RS Presidency at the time he talked to me, yet he felt justified asserting a stewardship and authority over me that he did NOT have.

Your average 18-20 year old does not stand a chance in a relationship with his mission president. The MP has age, experience, stewardship over the missionaries in his mission, and a very high and valued church calling on his side, while the teenager has only what he has been taught by much less experience in the church. Unfortunately, what we are taught is that we are to yield to authority. Agency takes a backseat. If you don't believe that's what we are taught, you haven't walked in my shoes.

I believe in agency with all my being, BUT I also know that most MPs would completely come apart if they were told to give the Elders complete agency in how they serve.
We are taught many things that are false. However, this goes back to my original point in this thread. The greatest difficulties come from missionaries who are not converted to Christ. Being converted to Christ allows you to deal with being abused by another without it bringing you down. Your heartache and your challenges get swallowed up in Christ. 18-20 year old young man or woman is perfectly capable of being converted to Jesus Christ. This is the work of the individual when it is all said and done. We can only blame others to a certain point and then we realize that we really can't blame them at all. Or, we can blame them, but it does us no good. We must realize that we need to take accountability of our own feelings, our own actions, and our own perceptions. Regardless of what challenge is before us, we can choose to be with Christ and to represent Him. We may have to submit, we may be treated poorly, we may be deceived, abused, and hurt, but all of these things will work out for our good if we are standing firmly with Christ. Missionaries ought not to serve missions because of tradition or because it is a rite of passage or because someone told them to. It should come from a love of Christ and because one is converted to Him. I can't convert my children. I can't make them know Christ. They must choose this course in their life.

-Finrock

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h_p
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by h_p »

Lizzy60 wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:52 am I agree with your thoughts, but we are talking about teenagers being chided and reprimanded by some of the most "important" leaders in the church hierarchy. In my own life, I was taken into a room, alone, with a High Councilman, who then asked me what my husband and I were going to do to get our (RM, married with 4 children) son to start paying tithing again. He said that we needed to bear down in strong testimony and let him know the consequences of not paying tithing. I told him that we love our son, and allow him his agency.
Thank you, Lizzy, I've found through hard experience that this is kind of a blind spot among members. If we say the reason someone left the church was because of an abusive leader, immediately, you can see cognitive dissonance kicking in, and out comes the "it must have been something the person did wrong" reasoning. Even from our closest friends.

I can't say much, because I used to think this way, too, I'm ashamed to admit.

Finrock, I also believe that we are all ultimately responsible for our own actions, and I know my son's experience isn't necessarily representative of all missions and church leaders. I know he will still need to work through his feelings of betrayal, but when he left on his mission, he had nothing but love in his heart and a desire to serve the Lord, and he's no stranger to hard work and discipline, either. Even after losing his testimony, he still wanted to stay out just so he could serve the people, despite not feeling like he could honestly testify of the gospel anymore. He stuck it out for another 3 months like that before the stress of it all was just more than he could take. I'm pretty sure he hasn't told us everything that happened out there, probably out of respect for us, but what he did tell us was pretty revolting. Without qualification, he's a much better man than me.

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h_p
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by h_p »

Finrock wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:31 pm This is the work of the individual when it is all said and done. We can only blame others to a certain point and then we realize that we really can't blame them at all. Or, we can blame them, but it does us no good. We must realize that we need to take accountability of our own feelings, our own actions, and our own perceptions. Regardless of what challenge is before us, we can choose to be with Christ and to represent Him. We may have to submit, we may be treated poorly, we may be deceived, abused, and hurt, but all of these things will work out for our good if we are standing firmly with Christ.
Just so there's no misunderstanding, I have no anger towards you, even though I may sound like I disagree. But let's use a metaphor of a war prisoner being tortured for information: the POW can resist the pain for only so long until he breaks, and gives up. Some prisoners can hold out longer than others, and a rare few are completely unbreakable no matter what's done. We want them to hold out and be strong, but everyone has their limit. Regardless of how long he lasts, do we condemn the prisoner for breaking, or do we condemn the person inflicting the torture?

In the church, when it comes to our leadership, we seem to blame the victim a lot.

For what it's worth, I do still hold onto a hope that he'll return, and this will all work for his good, but it's hell in the meantime.

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Joel
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Joel »

This blog has some graphs and discussion about the latest statistics:
http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/lds-me ... port-2017/

Finrock
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Finrock »

h_p wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:36 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:52 am I agree with your thoughts, but we are talking about teenagers being chided and reprimanded by some of the most "important" leaders in the church hierarchy. In my own life, I was taken into a room, alone, with a High Councilman, who then asked me what my husband and I were going to do to get our (RM, married with 4 children) son to start paying tithing again. He said that we needed to bear down in strong testimony and let him know the consequences of not paying tithing. I told him that we love our son, and allow him his agency.
Thank you, Lizzy, I've found through hard experience that this is kind of a blind spot among members. If we say the reason someone left the church was because of an abusive leader, immediately, you can see cognitive dissonance kicking in, and out comes the "it must have been something the person did wrong" reasoning. Even from our closest friends.

I can't say much, because I used to think this way, too, I'm ashamed to admit.

Finrock, I also believe that we are all ultimately responsible for our own actions, and I know my son's experience isn't necessarily representative of all missions and church leaders. I know he will still need to work through his feelings of betrayal, but when he left on his mission, he had nothing but love in his heart and a desire to serve the Lord, and he's no stranger to hard work and discipline, either. Even after losing his testimony, he still wanted to stay out just so he could serve the people, despite not feeling like he could honestly testify of the gospel anymore. He stuck it out for another 3 months like that before the stress of it all was just more than he could take. I'm pretty sure he hasn't told us everything that happened out there, probably out of respect for us, but what he did tell us was pretty revolting. Without qualification, he's a much better man than me.
I'm not trying to downplay people's difficulties. I am trying to say that people will betray us, they will deceive us, they will let us down, and they will teach us falsehoods, and they will abuse us. Not all people, of course, but all people are capable of failing us and our expectations. If our foundation is built on the truthfulness of the Church, or the truthfulness of a priesthood leader, or the love of some other temporal thing, we are on a shaky foundation and when the whirlwind and the storms come, our foundation will be shaken and our structure will come crashing down. If our foundation is built on Jesus Christ and the truthfulness of the Savior and His atonement and His gospel, then we have a sure foundation. The whirlwinds, the rains, the storms, and the fiery darts of the adversary may sting us but our foundation is sure and our structure which we have built on that foundation will not fall. It cannot fall. Jesus Christ is a sure foundation. He is the sure foundation.

People who abuse are responsible for the abuse. People who commit sins are responsible for their sins. Your son or none of us are to blame for the poor choices of others. We are, however, responsible and accountable to how we react and the choices we make in the best of times and in the worst of times. Again, I make no final judgments here and I recognize that this is close to home for you because of your son, however, I am talking about principles that I've come to learn are true because of experience.

-Finrock

Finrock
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Finrock »

h_p wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:48 pm
Finrock wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:31 pm This is the work of the individual when it is all said and done. We can only blame others to a certain point and then we realize that we really can't blame them at all. Or, we can blame them, but it does us no good. We must realize that we need to take accountability of our own feelings, our own actions, and our own perceptions. Regardless of what challenge is before us, we can choose to be with Christ and to represent Him. We may have to submit, we may be treated poorly, we may be deceived, abused, and hurt, but all of these things will work out for our good if we are standing firmly with Christ.
Just so there's no misunderstanding, I have no anger towards you, even though I may sound like I disagree. But let's use a metaphor of a war prisoner being tortured for information: the POW can resist the pain for only so long until he breaks, and gives up. Some prisoners can hold out longer than others, and a rare few are completely unbreakable no matter what's done. We want them to hold out and be strong, but everyone has their limit. Regardless of how long he lasts, do we condemn the prisoner for breaking, or do we condemn the person inflicting the torture?

In the church, when it comes to our leadership, we seem to blame the victim a lot.

For what it's worth, I do still hold onto a hope that he'll return, and this will all work for his good, but it's hell in the meantime.
I think I understand what you are saying more than you think.

-Finrock

EmmaLee
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by EmmaLee »

Lizzy60 wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 6:41 pmI heard my Stake President, with my very own ears, tell our ward that in a meeting with the Area Authority they were told that the Church has a goal to create more Stakes out of the existing ones by realigning wards with about 75% of the current number of active members, and reorganizing Stakes with only 6-8 units instead of the current average of 10. Last September my Stake and another Stake were formed into 3 Stakes, with a realignment of some of the wards to create a few new wards. With the same number of members, we now have 3 additional wards, a new Stake, and no new buildings were needed or planned. We share a Stake Center for conferences, and use a ward building for stake offices.

As a second witness, my son was in the other Stake, and was told the very same information by his Stake President. There was no mystery about how and why we were forming a new Stake, and dividing wards.

I am a thousand-plus miles from the Mormon Corridor. I can only imagine all the new wards and Stakes that can be created in more densely LDS-populated areas.
Sounds like we live in the same stake! ;) We did this exact same thing a few months ago - went from 2 stakes to 3, solely due to realigning boundaries, no new buildings, and 2 stakes share a stake center. We went from a stake of 14 units, to a stake of 5 wards and 4 branches, and a new stake being formed with already existing units. So our state has a new stake, but no new members. Maybe this is the new common core 'math' way of getting a higher number of stakes without a correspondingly higher number of members. :-?

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Rose Garden
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Rose Garden »

Finrock wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:56 pm
h_p wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:36 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:52 am I agree with your thoughts, but we are talking about teenagers being chided and reprimanded by some of the most "important" leaders in the church hierarchy. In my own life, I was taken into a room, alone, with a High Councilman, who then asked me what my husband and I were going to do to get our (RM, married with 4 children) son to start paying tithing again. He said that we needed to bear down in strong testimony and let him know the consequences of not paying tithing. I told him that we love our son, and allow him his agency.
Thank you, Lizzy, I've found through hard experience that this is kind of a blind spot among members. If we say the reason someone left the church was because of an abusive leader, immediately, you can see cognitive dissonance kicking in, and out comes the "it must have been something the person did wrong" reasoning. Even from our closest friends.

I can't say much, because I used to think this way, too, I'm ashamed to admit.

Finrock, I also believe that we are all ultimately responsible for our own actions, and I know my son's experience isn't necessarily representative of all missions and church leaders. I know he will still need to work through his feelings of betrayal, but when he left on his mission, he had nothing but love in his heart and a desire to serve the Lord, and he's no stranger to hard work and discipline, either. Even after losing his testimony, he still wanted to stay out just so he could serve the people, despite not feeling like he could honestly testify of the gospel anymore. He stuck it out for another 3 months like that before the stress of it all was just more than he could take. I'm pretty sure he hasn't told us everything that happened out there, probably out of respect for us, but what he did tell us was pretty revolting. Without qualification, he's a much better man than me.
I'm not trying to downplay people's difficulties. I am trying to say that people will betray us, they will deceive us, they will let us down, and they will teach us falsehoods, and they will abuse us. Not all people, of course, but all people are capable of failing us and our expectations. If our foundation is built on the truthfulness of the Church, or the truthfulness of a priesthood leader, or the love of some other temporal thing, we are on a shaky foundation and when the whirlwind and the storms come, our foundation will be shaken and our structure will come crashing down. If our foundation is built on Jesus Christ and the truthfulness of the Savior and His atonement and His gospel, then we have a sure foundation. The whirlwinds, the rains, the storms, and the fiery darts of the adversary may sting us but our foundation is sure and our structure which we have built on that foundation will not fall. It cannot fall. Jesus Christ is a sure foundation. He is the sure foundation.

People who abuse are responsible for the abuse. People who commit sins are responsible for their sins. Your son or none of us are to blame for the poor choices of others. We are, however, responsible and accountable to how we react and the choices we make in the best of times and in the worst of times. Again, I make no final judgments here and I recognize that this is close to home for you because of your son, however, I am talking about principles that I've come to learn are true because of experience.

-Finrock
I would say that it's true that when your foundation is in Christ then you can handle whatever is thrown at you. However, I think you need to take into account the influence of parents and other authority figures over children. Children's nature is to be submissive and most accept the teachings of their upbringing for at least the first twelve years of life without question. Even those who rebel in their teen years struggle to fully uproot the training of their younger years. There are elements of childhood that most people don't even recognize as "traditions of their fathers" because their culture never challenges those assumptions.

For those whose upbringing taught them to focus on the arm of flesh instead of Christ, often they must be shaken and have their foundation come crashing down before they realize that their focus has been askew and they turn to Christ. It's not necessarily a weakness on their part. It's just part of the process.

Finrock
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Finrock »

Meili wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 3:30 pm
Finrock wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:56 pm
h_p wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:36 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:52 am I agree with your thoughts, but we are talking about teenagers being chided and reprimanded by some of the most "important" leaders in the church hierarchy. In my own life, I was taken into a room, alone, with a High Councilman, who then asked me what my husband and I were going to do to get our (RM, married with 4 children) son to start paying tithing again. He said that we needed to bear down in strong testimony and let him know the consequences of not paying tithing. I told him that we love our son, and allow him his agency.
Thank you, Lizzy, I've found through hard experience that this is kind of a blind spot among members. If we say the reason someone left the church was because of an abusive leader, immediately, you can see cognitive dissonance kicking in, and out comes the "it must have been something the person did wrong" reasoning. Even from our closest friends.

I can't say much, because I used to think this way, too, I'm ashamed to admit.

Finrock, I also believe that we are all ultimately responsible for our own actions, and I know my son's experience isn't necessarily representative of all missions and church leaders. I know he will still need to work through his feelings of betrayal, but when he left on his mission, he had nothing but love in his heart and a desire to serve the Lord, and he's no stranger to hard work and discipline, either. Even after losing his testimony, he still wanted to stay out just so he could serve the people, despite not feeling like he could honestly testify of the gospel anymore. He stuck it out for another 3 months like that before the stress of it all was just more than he could take. I'm pretty sure he hasn't told us everything that happened out there, probably out of respect for us, but what he did tell us was pretty revolting. Without qualification, he's a much better man than me.
I'm not trying to downplay people's difficulties. I am trying to say that people will betray us, they will deceive us, they will let us down, and they will teach us falsehoods, and they will abuse us. Not all people, of course, but all people are capable of failing us and our expectations. If our foundation is built on the truthfulness of the Church, or the truthfulness of a priesthood leader, or the love of some other temporal thing, we are on a shaky foundation and when the whirlwind and the storms come, our foundation will be shaken and our structure will come crashing down. If our foundation is built on Jesus Christ and the truthfulness of the Savior and His atonement and His gospel, then we have a sure foundation. The whirlwinds, the rains, the storms, and the fiery darts of the adversary may sting us but our foundation is sure and our structure which we have built on that foundation will not fall. It cannot fall. Jesus Christ is a sure foundation. He is the sure foundation.

People who abuse are responsible for the abuse. People who commit sins are responsible for their sins. Your son or none of us are to blame for the poor choices of others. We are, however, responsible and accountable to how we react and the choices we make in the best of times and in the worst of times. Again, I make no final judgments here and I recognize that this is close to home for you because of your son, however, I am talking about principles that I've come to learn are true because of experience.

-Finrock
I would say that it's true that when your foundation is in Christ then you can handle whatever is thrown at you. However, I think you need to take into account the influence of parents and other authority figures over children. Children's nature is to be submissive and most accept the teachings of their upbringing for at least the first twelve years of life without question. Even those who rebel in their teen years struggle to fully uproot the training of their younger years. There are elements of childhood that most people don't even recognize as "traditions of their fathers" because their culture never challenges those assumptions.

For those whose upbringing taught them to focus on the arm of flesh instead of Christ, often they must be shaken and have their foundation come crashing down before they realize that their focus has been askew and they turn to Christ. It's not necessarily a weakness on their part. It's just part of the process.
No doubt. And to be clear, I am not being condemning at all. I don't see these missionaries as failures and I recognize that this is very much a work in progress. All of us have our own journey and we will have the experiences that are needful for us to figure out that Christ is the way and it is Him that we need to put our trust in. God knows what He is doing and what is going on in His vineyard. All have been placed where they will have the best chance to come to recognize the good from the evil. My only objective is to testify of Christ and of how through Christ we can be free from the influences of mankind or at least we are free to choose good and to know that all things will work out for our good.

It took me a long time to come to the realization that I did and it took me many years of failures and falling and making mistakes before I did. Not to say that I've now reached the pinnacle. Even to this day Christ patiently works with my weaknesses and my failures and does not condemn me for being fallible human. He understands our condition perfectly and knows how weak the flesh is.

-Finrock

Spaced_Out
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Spaced_Out »

EmmaLee wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 2:59 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 6:41 pmI heard my Stake President, with my very own ears, tell our ward that in a meeting with the Area Authority they were told that the Church has a goal to create more Stakes out of the existing ones by realigning wards with about 75% of the current number of active members, and reorganizing Stakes with only 6-8 units instead of the current average of 10. Last September my Stake and another Stake were formed into 3 Stakes, with a realignment of some of the wards to create a few new wards. With the same number of members, we now have 3 additional wards, a new Stake, and no new buildings were needed or planned. We share a Stake Center for conferences, and use a ward building for stake offices.

As a second witness, my son was in the other Stake, and was told the very same information by his Stake President. There was no mystery about how and why we were forming a new Stake, and dividing wards.

I am a thousand-plus miles from the Mormon Corridor. I can only imagine all the new wards and Stakes that can be created in more densely LDS-populated areas.
Sounds like we live in the same stake! ;) We did this exact same thing a few months ago - went from 2 stakes to 3, solely due to realigning boundaries, no new buildings, and 2 stakes share a stake center. We went from a stake of 14 units, to a stake of 5 wards and 4 branches, and a new stake being formed with already existing units. So our state has a new stake, but no new members. Maybe this is the new common core 'math' way of getting a higher number of stakes without a correspondingly higher number of members. :-?
It reduces the workload of the Stake President - and makes them more effective. Have a heart for the poor leaders....

EmmaLee
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by EmmaLee »

Silver wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:02 pmRegarding The Hastening, AKA the policy of sending 18-yo Elders and 19-yo Sisters into the mission field, has it had a net positive effect on the lives of those who answered the call?
That's a tough question. Our sons served missions (last one got back in 2015, so fairly recently), they finished them, and they have remained active in the Church. They learned a LOT on their missions, but most of it was not what many might think. They suffered quite a bit while on their missions, because despite what some idealists want to think/believe - it really IS all about the numbers. Their whole missions revolved around numbers and how many people they could baptize. The pressure was insane - about as non-Christ-like as you can imagine - and Sec.121 had, seemingly, never been read by or understood by most, including mission presidents. Other negatives were - getting things stolen quite often by other missionaries; bullying to the extreme if you were at all different than whatever the current "norm" was in any particular area; seriously bad influences (mainly other missionaries - I won't go into detail), etc.

Our sons were exposed to some pretty heinous things while serving their missions - not so much by the world or people they were teaching, but by other missionaries, members, and especially one of their mission presidents (a few months after my son got home, his recently released mission president was called as a Seventy in GenCon, and I literally could not raise my hand to sustain him - given what I knew of his true character from interactions I had with him while my son was in his mission).

Of the 11 boys from the two wards in our town who have left on missions in the last 4 years, only THREE have stayed the whole 2 years. ALL of the other 8 boys came home early. ALL of the boys who left soon after their 18th birthday (like within 2 months of turning 18 or graduating from high school) came home early - every single one of them. How's that for a statistic. The 3 boys who stayed the whole 2 years waited till they were almost 19 to go (one was 19 when he left).

I was in the FB groups of our son's missions (where parents, mostly moms, would post about their child's experiences, etc.), and the VAST majority of missionaries who came home did so because they were forced to go on their missions in the first place by parents who, apparently, didn't listen very well to the entirety of Pres. Monson's words on the matter (quoted elsewhere on this thread) - and felt that in order to "follow the prophet" or appear righteous, they had to force their barely 18 year old child to go live with strangers in a different part of the world, some speaking a foreign language (that of course they didn't know how to speak), etc. In other words, the boys (because that's what they are) came home early because they didn't want to go in the first place (at least not as early as they were forced to), and they couldn't hack it. The latest one from our ward who came home early (after only being out just shy of 2 months), is the son of the 1st counselor in our stake presidency - and yes, his parents forced him to go right after he graduated from high school. He had made it well-known to all, quite publicly, that he had zero desire to serve a mission, but his high profile (stake presidency) daddy and old-Utah-family mommy wouldn't hear of it, and literally forced him to go. And that exact same situation applies to every single one of the boys who came home early.

Anyway, what a deal - these poor boys have to live with the stigma (which, of course, shouldn't exist, but let's be real, it does exist) of "coming home early", when they didn't want to go in the first place but were forced to by parents. Sad situation. Our boys learned lots of good things, too; I hasten (had to use the word at least once) to add - but I would not say their missions had a net positive affect on them. I will say they are still active and thriving in the Church and gospel, no thanks to having served missions.
Last edited by EmmaLee on April 4th, 2017, 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EmmaLee
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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by EmmaLee »

Spaced_Out wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 3:57 pm
EmmaLee wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 2:59 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 6:41 pmI heard my Stake President, with my very own ears, tell our ward that in a meeting with the Area Authority they were told that the Church has a goal to create more Stakes out of the existing ones by realigning wards with about 75% of the current number of active members, and reorganizing Stakes with only 6-8 units instead of the current average of 10. Last September my Stake and another Stake were formed into 3 Stakes, with a realignment of some of the wards to create a few new wards. With the same number of members, we now have 3 additional wards, a new Stake, and no new buildings were needed or planned. We share a Stake Center for conferences, and use a ward building for stake offices.

As a second witness, my son was in the other Stake, and was told the very same information by his Stake President. There was no mystery about how and why we were forming a new Stake, and dividing wards.

I am a thousand-plus miles from the Mormon Corridor. I can only imagine all the new wards and Stakes that can be created in more densely LDS-populated areas.
Sounds like we live in the same stake! ;) We did this exact same thing a few months ago - went from 2 stakes to 3, solely due to realigning boundaries, no new buildings, and 2 stakes share a stake center. We went from a stake of 14 units, to a stake of 5 wards and 4 branches, and a new stake being formed with already existing units. So our state has a new stake, but no new members. Maybe this is the new common core 'math' way of getting a higher number of stakes without a correspondingly higher number of members. :-?
It reduces the workload of the Stake President - and makes them more effective. Have a heart for the poor leaders....
My husband is the stake clerk - I have a huge heart for the "poor leaders" - which has nothing to do with what Lizzy and I shared.

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Post by EdGoble »

JK4Woods wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:35 am That happened several months ago in our stake. We used to have nine wards, three were super-wards and they realigned the boundaries and created two new wards for a total of 11 wards in the stake. Inside of the 11 wards is a adult singles ward and a Spanish ward.

The "same-ten-people" were split apart and we have brand new, previously overlooked presidencies.

It's been the greatest change for us! We went from 875 members to 355.
Breaking things up in various areas where necessary is something that has been done for decades.
They were doing it in South America in the early 90's when I was there.

When they were doing it, it was Jacob 5:48 that was given as the justification:

48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?

And so, this practice of splitting things up is the "pruning" of the vineyard. But unfortunately, it says something for the state of the parts of the vineyard where this is done, that they are "corrupted" and need pruning.

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Re: Church Growth Rate, Latest Statistics

Post by Older/wiser? »

EmmaLee wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 4:16 pm
Silver wrote: April 2nd, 2017, 7:02 pmRegarding The Hastening, AKA the policy of sending 18-yo Elders and 19-yo Sisters into the mission field, has it had a net positive effect on the lives of those who answered the call?
That's a tough question. Our sons served missions (last one got back in 2015, so fairly recently), they finished them, and they have remained active in the Church. They learned a LOT on their missions, but most of it was not what many might think. They suffered quite a bit while on their missions, because despite what some idealists want to think/believe - it really IS all about the numbers. Their whole missions revolved around numbers and how many people they could baptize. The pressure was insane - about as non-Christ-like as you can imagine - and Sec.121 had, seemingly, never been read by or understood by most, including mission presidents. Other negatives were - getting things stolen quite often by other missionaries; bullying to the extreme if you were at all different than whatever the current "norm" was in any particular area; seriously bad influences (mainly other missionaries - I won't go into detail), etc.

Our sons were exposed to some pretty heinous things while serving their missions - not so much by the world or people they were teaching, but by other missionaries, members, and especially one of their mission presidents (a few months after my son got home, his recently released mission president was called as a Seventy in GenCon, and I literally could not raise my hand to sustain him - given what I knew of his true character from interactions I had with him while my son was in his mission).

Of the 11 boys from the two wards in our town who have left on missions in the last 4 years, only THREE have stayed the whole 2 years (and 2 of them were mine). ALL of the other 8 boys came home early. ALL of the boys who left soon after their 18th birthday (like within 2 months of turning 18 or graduating from high school) came home early - every single one of them. How's that for a statistic. The 3 boys who stayed the whole 2 years waited till they were almost 19 to go (one was 19 when he left).

I was in the FB groups of our son's missions (where parents, mostly moms, would post about their child's experiences, etc.), and the VAST majority of missionaries who came home did so because they were forced to go on their missions in the first place by parents who, apparently, didn't listen very well to the entirety of Pres. Monson's words on the matter (quoted elsewhere on this thread) - and felt that in order to "follow the prophet" or appear righteous, they had to force their barely 18 year old child to go live with strangers in a different part of the world, some speaking a foreign language (that of course they didn't know how to speak), etc. In other words, the boys (because that's what they are) came home early because they didn't want to go in the first place (at least not as early as they were forced to), and they couldn't hack it. The latest one from our ward who came home early (after only being out just shy of 2 months), is the son of the 1st counselor in our stake presidency - and yes, his parents forced him to go right after he graduated from high school. He had made it well-known to all, quite publicly, that he had zero desire to serve a mission, but his high profile (stake presidency) daddy and old-Utah-family mommy wouldn't hear of it, and literally forced him to go. And that exact same situation applies to every single one of the boys who came home early.

Anyway, what a deal - these poor boys have to live with the stigma (which, of course, shouldn't exist, but let's be real, it does exist) of "coming home early", when they didn't want to go in the first place but were forced to by parents. Sad situation. Our boys learned lots of good things, too; I hasten (had to use the word at least once) to add - but I would not say their missions had a net positive affect on them. I will say they are still active and thriving in the Church and gospel, no thanks to having served missions.
Thanks for sharing Emma Lee, how sad for the boys that came home, hopefully at some point they will become converted. Glad your boys are active in spite of there missions. We had 2 sons serve one is straight as an arrow, the other so very lost. I've decided you don't pat yourself on the back if they stay the course nor do you beat yourself up if they through it away, heart breaking non the less.

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Post by EmmaLee »

I hope you didn't interpret anything I said as "patting myself on the back", because I can assure you, that was not my intention or thought. In fact, there were times I almost wished my boys would have come home early so their suffering could end. They are good people despite their mother.

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Post by Older/wiser? »

EmmaLee wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 5:02 pm I hope you didn't interpret anything I said as "patting myself on the back", because I can assure you, that was not my intention or thought. In fact, there were times I almost wished my boys would have come home early so their suffering could end. They are good people despite their mother.
Absolutely not friend , I was referring to how I cope with our loss.

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Post by butterfly »

h_p wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 12:36 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 11:52 am I agree with your thoughts, but we are talking about teenagers being chided and reprimanded by some of the most "important" leaders in the church hierarchy. In my own life, I was taken into a room, alone, with a High Councilman, who then asked me what my husband and I were going to do to get our (RM, married with 4 children) son to start paying tithing again. He said that we needed to bear down in strong testimony and let him know the consequences of not paying tithing. I told him that we love our son, and allow him his agency.
Thank you, Lizzy, I've found through hard experience that this is kind of a blind spot among members. If we say the reason someone left the church was because of an abusive leader, immediately, you can see cognitive dissonance kicking in, and out comes the "it must have been something the person did wrong" reasoning. Even from our closest friends.

I can't say much, because I used to think this way, too, I'm ashamed to admit.

Finrock, I also believe that we are all ultimately responsible for our own actions, and I know my son's experience isn't necessarily representative of all missions and church leaders. I know he will still need to work through his feelings of betrayal, but when he left on his mission, he had nothing but love in his heart and a desire to serve the Lord, and he's no stranger to hard work and discipline, either. Even after losing his testimony, he still wanted to stay out just so he could serve the people, despite not feeling like he could honestly testify of the gospel anymore. He stuck it out for another 3 months like that before the stress of it all was just more than he could take. I'm pretty sure he hasn't told us everything that happened out there, probably out of respect for us, but what he did tell us was pretty revolting. Without qualification, he's a much better man than me.
I went on my mission when I was 21 and already had 3 years of college under my belt. This means that I was already accustomed to living away from home and had learned that I could question things I'd been taught growing up.
An 18 or 19 yr old is still often in the mindset that everything they've learned from their parents and leaders is right or true.

My mission president's first instruction to me when I arrived was to "lie to the members. They'll ask you how long you've been out and if you tell them that you're new to the mission, then they won't trust you with their nonmember friends because you're too inexperienced."

I was still under the hypnotism of the MTC that says "if you follow mission rules, you will have baptisms. If you break mission rules, God will not trust you with his children and so you won't have baptisms." So my 1st dinner appointment with members, I did exactly what the MP told me - I flat out lied about being new to the mission.

By the time dinner was over, I realized what I had done, apologized to the members and explained everything. They were bothered about the lie and it set the tone for the rest of my mission. I realized that just because a leader says it, does not make it true or right. That mission president later threatened to send me home, but that's a whole other story.

The point is, at 18 or 19 yrs of age, I wouldn't have had that clarity of thought in order to recognize that my MP was wrong. I think so many missionaries are too heavily indoctrinated to follow all those ridiculous rules that have nothing to do with righteousness, having the Spirit, or teaching people about Christ. The missionaries are driven to focus so much on these rules, which are nearly impossible to keep 100%, and so when they don't have baptisms, they're told it's their own fault.
It's no wonder they have anxiety.

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Post by h_p »

^^^ this times 1000.

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Post by h_p »

EmmaLee wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 4:16 pm Anyway, what a deal - these poor boys have to live with the stigma (which, of course, shouldn't exist, but let's be real, it does exist) of "coming home early", when they didn't want to go in the first place but were forced to by parents. Sad situation. Our boys learned lots of good things, too; I hasten (had to use the word at least once) to add - but I would not say their missions had a net positive affect on them. I will say they are still active and thriving in the Church and gospel, no thanks to having served missions.
Thanks for sharing this, EmmaLee. I was writing a post about some of the things my son experienced on his mission, but realized it was turning into a big grievance-mongering, so I deleted it, but it's really heartbreaking to hear that other missions are as bad as my son's. I personally know some other missionaries who seem to be in great missions with wonderful MPs who are full charity and patience, so thankfully, it's not that way everywhere. It just makes me feel like "why MY son??"

To add insult to injury is the effect it's having on my other son. He's really torn right now about serving, and the time is coming quick. Seeing what happened to his brother makes him not want to go, but he realizes that pretty much brands a big "L" on his forehead forever. His worry is that he won't be able to find a good LDS girl to marry if he doesn't serve. Poor kid feels like he's being crushed from both sides. While he hasn't come outright and said it, some of the comments he's made make it sound like he feels like his only option is to just leave the church once he's graduated and on his own.

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h_p wrote: April 3rd, 2017, 9:08 pm His worry is that he won't be able to find a good LDS girl to marry if he doesn't serve. Poor kid feels like he's being crushed from both sides. While he hasn't come outright and said it, some of the comments he's made make it sound like he feels like his only option is to just leave the church once he's graduated and on his own.
I really feel for this generation growing up right now...as much as people like to gripe about the millennials, the youth are facing an incredibly wicked world and the crushing peer pressure that goes along with that.

My hope is your son realizes that there are many good LDS girls that will see his great qualities and that being a RM doesn't always make a guy the "perfect catch". What impressed me when I met my husband was his love of family, work ethic, artistic talent, spirituality​, personality and the great way he treated me on our dates (not to mention he's super cute, lol). Him coming home early from his mission was not a concern in any way, shape or form.

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