Mormon Cultural Revolution

[David13]

If that happens it will be due to the cleansing of the church spoken about in d&c 112 23-26

Otherwise i don't see that happening. There are many judgmental people in the church.

I have only been in the church two years, but I'm not really sure I have encountered anyone "judgmental" in the church.

Well, other than perhaps, Alma? In Alma 39? Is that judgmental. Are you saying the Book of Mormon is judgmental?

dc

I have experienced it.

At one point in life I was disfellowshipped. For things that I was already forgiven for.

It was definitely the lords will. My bishopric was promoted by the spirit to disfellowship me. I felt the spirit of it as well. Didn't understand why. But was comforted by the spirit. Both in that I was completely forgiven and that the disfellowship was his will.

It was an eye opener. I was ostracized and judged by many members. Treated poorly. Looked down on. All while knowing that I was pure.

It really opened my eyes to just how many people judge others and helped me learn why they judge others.

The knowledge I gained from the entire experience was something that I know I wouldn't have gotten really any other way. So I am very thankful for what happened and very thankful that my bishopric was lead by the spirit. I'm also very sad That there are so many people who are so judgmental.

Most people don't realize they are. It's so common that most pass it off as normal. Normal for most people dosent make it right. And dosent make it ok. And dosent make it were others feel welcome and safe.

It's both good and bad that you have not experienced it in the way I have. It's eye opening for sure. But it's also painful. Painful to be judged by others and painful to know the hurts I caused by being judgemental. As it not only cause others pain. It's a double edged knife. It hurts us to judge others. Almost all just don't realize they do it and don't realize the pain they cause themselves.

Or are you just being judgmental about the people who you felt were judgmental about you?
dc

[Rose Garden]

It's funny.
It's supposedly about love, but starts out with a scathing indictment of everyone in the church.
It's also rather convoluted in that it isn't clear if he loves the sinner, or the sin. He seems rather accepting of the sin. And the lack of repentance.
My understanding, so far, is that it is not "you are saved, so nothing else matters, sin all you want". It's "go forth and sin no more".
I think it's part of our responsibility.
When I was a child, I saw ants in my grandfathers cabin in the northern woods. They had a project to one side, and something else to the other, and they would walk along lines on the wall boards. Their lines were rather straight and narrow and as each ant passed another, they would wiggle their antlers or hands, or what they have, seemingly to confirm the path to the one passing in the other direction. If one strayed from the path, the other would go over and intercept the wayward one, and get him back on the path. This was part of the community project, and they needed to go from one spot to the other along those lines.
And I think humans do and have the same thing, the same responsibility. You've heard Chris Rock talk about your friends telling you "hey man, you oughta not be doin' that ****.
Why don't we do the same thing? When someone is wrong, do we say nothing, just let them go off the path and destroy themselves? Or do we say something. I always say something.
Now you may say, oh, you will make them self conscious.
WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SELF CONSCIOUS ALL THE TIME.
We are always supposed to be awake and aware if we are doing right or not.
And isn't it nice to get by with a little help from your friends from time to time?
Sometimes people don't see that brick wall right in front of them that they are going to run into.
What is it about general conference.
Is it, hey man, whatever turns you on is cool?
Or is it a series of admonitions about right and wrong?
And how to stay on that path.
dc

Your analogy could go either way. If the path the ants are on is the right path, then correction is helpful. But if the path was wrong, then their drawing each other back to the path would be detrimental to the individual ants. Or if they were crabs in a bucket, their drawing wayward crabs back into the fold would be destructive.

For me, I find that focusing on myself and on keeping myself on the right path is the most productive pursuit I can undertake, both for making sure I'm not a crab pulling others down and also to help draw people back on the right path. I simply show the right way, as best I can understand it, but don't try to push or pull anyone else onto it because I feel they might be the ones on the right path in the first place. I figure if correction is required, the Lord can take care of it. At least, I'm trying to become the sort of person who always leaves others in the hands of the Lord.

It's funny. At the bottom of all your posts you say "I'm always right". But in this post you in effect say you don't know what's right. Which would imply also that you don't know what's wrong.
dc

It's only after you realize that, as a mortal, you can't ever be 100% sure that you are right that you can see how you are always right. And everyone else is too. ;)

[Red]

iWriteThings,

I'd like to share my personal experience as it relates to the topic. You can interpret it however you like.

I moved into the ward I am currently in from a ward out of state. I was not wearing my temple garments before I moved and I continued to not wear them after I moved. It was a very freeing experience to leave the ward i grew up in where I was plainly judged for my choice to a ward where no one knew me and were, quite frankly, intimidated by me. I mostly avoided people. I was there to attend my meetings and nothing else. I refused to visit teach and refused any calling. I've been in that ward for about 4 years. In the last year, I've begun opening a little to some members out of loneliness and in turn, these people and people they were close to began feeling comfortable to tell me things I never asked them to tell me. All of the things they would tell me were based on how they felt when they were judged, particarly by other members. The funny thing about these conversations is that they would begin telling me about judgements they've had passed on them and then they would say to me, "but I really admire you for just wearing whatever you want and never letting anyone make you feel bad about it. And I appreciate all the things you say in class, I could never say those things." I have recently begun commenting in my meetings, which I never do. This Sunday in Relief Society, the teacher asked how we express gratitude for the Atonement. The standard answers were given, but my heart started racing (this is how I know I have to speak up) and I felt compelled to say, "I show gratitude for the Atonement every day, but especially on the days that I'm just flat too exhausted to read my scriptures (or whatever naughty thing I did willingly). It is a willing omission not to read them. I know what I'm doing, but I'm too exhausted to care. My life is very stressful and exhausting. The Lord knows how stressful life is in general and I'm very grateful in these moments that Christ gave me a pass for being too exhausted to do the things I 'ought to'. He gave me a pass and a way back to him even when I knowingly do Things that are wrong because He knows life is hard. He is full of grace." I could hear whispers around me of "how beautiful. That's perfect." I heard intakes of breath at that comment and it saddened me to think how judged those women felt. That should not be a light bulb moment. They should already know it but they have not assimilated it. The point is that I frequently have people tell me how much they appreciate what I say and do when I really haven't done anything at all. What they are perceiving is a safe place where no judgment is passed. They're hungry for it. They're desperate for it and it is a quiet revolution. These people tell me these things in confidence because they want the courage to act without judgment but what they really want is to not be judged at all. They want to be loved. Secretly, I think they believe their Savior judges them because the members do. These people are struggling. Many of them leave the church entirely. I do what i can to help people feel loved and not judged, but the sad thing is they only feel comfortable talking to me because they see me as someone who OUGHT to be judged. I suppose that's another judgment, haha.

Anyway, that's just my personal experience, FWIW.

[David13]

It's funny.
It's supposedly about love, but starts out with a scathing indictment of everyone in the church.
It's also rather convoluted in that it isn't clear if he loves the sinner, or the sin. He seems rather accepting of the sin. And the lack of repentance.
My understanding, so far, is that it is not "you are saved, so nothing else matters, sin all you want". It's "go forth and sin no more".
I think it's part of our responsibility.
When I was a child, I saw ants in my grandfathers cabin in the northern woods. They had a project to one side, and something else to the other, and they would walk along lines on the wall boards. Their lines were rather straight and narrow and as each ant passed another, they would wiggle their antlers or hands, or what they have, seemingly to confirm the path to the one passing in the other direction. If one strayed from the path, the other would go over and intercept the wayward one, and get him back on the path. This was part of the community project, and they needed to go from one spot to the other along those lines.
And I think humans do and have the same thing, the same responsibility. You've heard Chris Rock talk about your friends telling you "hey man, you oughta not be doin' that ****.
Why don't we do the same thing? When someone is wrong, do we say nothing, just let them go off the path and destroy themselves? Or do we say something. I always say something.
Now you may say, oh, you will make them self conscious.
WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SELF CONSCIOUS ALL THE TIME.
We are always supposed to be awake and aware if we are doing right or not.
And isn't it nice to get by with a little help from your friends from time to time?
Sometimes people don't see that brick wall right in front of them that they are going to run into.
What is it about general conference.
Is it, hey man, whatever turns you on is cool?
Or is it a series of admonitions about right and wrong?
And how to stay on that path.
dc

Your analogy could go either way. If the path the ants are on is the right path, then correction is helpful. But if the path was wrong, then their drawing each other back to the path would be detrimental to the individual ants. Or if they were crabs in a bucket, their drawing wayward crabs back into the fold would be destructive.

For me, I find that focusing on myself and on keeping myself on the right path is the most productive pursuit I can undertake, both for making sure I'm not a crab pulling others down and also to help draw people back on the right path. I simply show the right way, as best I can understand it, but don't try to push or pull anyone else onto it because I feel they might be the ones on the right path in the first place. I figure if correction is required, the Lord can take care of it. At least, I'm trying to become the sort of person who always leaves others in the hands of the Lord.

It's funny. At the bottom of all your posts you say "I'm always right". But in this post you in effect say you don't know what's right. Which would imply also that you don't know what's wrong.
dc

It's only after you realize that, as a mortal, you can't ever be 100% sure that you are right that you can see how you are always right. And everyone else is too. ;)

Is what you are saying moral relativism? There is no right nor wrong. Just, it all depends?
dc

[Ezra]

If that happens it will be due to the cleansing of the church spoken about in d&c 112 23-26

Otherwise i don't see that happening. There are many judgmental people in the church.

I have only been in the church two years, but I'm not really sure I have encountered anyone "judgmental" in the church.

Well, other than perhaps, Alma? In Alma 39? Is that judgmental. Are you saying the Book of Mormon is judgmental?

dc

I have experienced it.

At one point in life I was disfellowshipped. For things that I was already forgiven for.

It was definitely the lords will. My bishopric was promoted by the spirit to disfellowship me. I felt the spirit of it as well. Didn't understand why. But was comforted by the spirit. Both in that I was completely forgiven and that the disfellowship was his will.

It was an eye opener. I was ostracized and judged by many members. Treated poorly. Looked down on. All while knowing that I was pure.

It really opened my eyes to just how many people judge others and helped me learn why they judge others.

The knowledge I gained from the entire experience was something that I know I wouldn't have gotten really any other way. So I am very thankful for what happened and very thankful that my bishopric was lead by the spirit. I'm also very sad That there are so many people who are so judgmental.

Most people don't realize they are. It's so common that most pass it off as normal. Normal for most people dosent make it right. And dosent make it ok. And dosent make it were others feel welcome and safe.

It's both good and bad that you have not experienced it in the way I have. It's eye opening for sure. But it's also painful. Painful to be judged by others and painful to know the hurts I caused by being judgemental. As it not only cause others pain. It's a double edged knife. It hurts us to judge others. Almost all just don't realize they do it and don't realize the pain they cause themselves.

Or are you just being judgmental about the people who you felt were judgmental about you?
dc

i don't hold any grudges. I'm excited for them to have what they need in their life's to grow. Uncomfort. I dont look down on them for their trials. I look for opportunitys to help. Share what I have learned. And I am ok either way if they want to listen or not.

Is that judgemental in your eyes?

[Rose Garden]

Your analogy could go either way. If the path the ants are on is the right path, then correction is helpful. But if the path was wrong, then their drawing each other back to the path would be detrimental to the individual ants. Or if they were crabs in a bucket, their drawing wayward crabs back into the fold would be destructive.

For me, I find that focusing on myself and on keeping myself on the right path is the most productive pursuit I can undertake, both for making sure I'm not a crab pulling others down and also to help draw people back on the right path. I simply show the right way, as best I can understand it, but don't try to push or pull anyone else onto it because I feel they might be the ones on the right path in the first place. I figure if correction is required, the Lord can take care of it. At least, I'm trying to become the sort of person who always leaves others in the hands of the Lord.

It's funny. At the bottom of all your posts you say "I'm always right". But in this post you in effect say you don't know what's right. Which would imply also that you don't know what's wrong.
dc

It's only after you realize that, as a mortal, you can't ever be 100% sure that you are right that you can see how you are always right. And everyone else is too. ;)

Is what you are saying moral relativism? There is no right nor wrong. Just, it all depends?
dc

Not really. Just a trust that the Lord sets everything straight in the end and that everything we experience in this life is ultimately for our good.

[iWriteStuff]

Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go thy way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past.

At any rate, this isn't even entirely about sin.

"Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go they way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past."

Is it adultery or prostitute? Didn't he tell the prostitute to go forth an sin no more?

However, the point is, did he then "hang out" with her? No, then what? He parted company with her. He left her on her lonesome.

No, he didn't lecture her. He just called her conduct sin. He did not say, oh yeah, man, that stuff was "cool" or "ok". He said it was sin. No lecture, nothing about it, just that was sin. Period.
And then what" Go forth and sin no more. Again no lecture, no "hanging out". Just a command. Not precatory, not you shall not, but an absolute order. Don't do that any more. A command, I command you not to do that any more.

But then you are right, I agree, our issue here is not sin, it's just our attitude toward it.

And it's clear to me that both Jesus Christ and Alma have a harsh and strict attitude about it.
dc
dc

The woman taken in adultery was.... committing adultery. I called on that example to demonstrate how Christ Himself handled the matter of people guilty of sexual sin. Sure, he didn't "hang out" with her. But read the rest of the NT. Christ was constantly accused of "hanging out" with sinners (Matt 21:28-32). The only people he absolutely REFUSED to hang out with were the self-righteous scribes and Pharisees who went about condemning everyone.

And hey guess what? We're all sinners; even the best of us. The difference between righteous sinners and wicked sinners is whether we are trying to repent. Since you can never be sure who is repenting and who is not, perhaps you should leave the lectures for their priesthood leaders. That's what they're called to do, when necessary.

I would agree that Christ and Alma are strict; but I would also put it to you that they were merciful, compassionate, and sought to nourish the sinner back to repentance rather than cast them out. That's the example.

You keep harping about "cast them out". Nobody said anything about cast them out. What we said is, do we get to the point where we love the sinner and NOT the sin, or where we end up in essence accepting the sin. Take a look at the way Samizdat put it. I thought he summed it up rather nicely.

But throwing in this business about "cast them out" you again paint me with your colored brush when I said no such thing. Again, false attribution.
Worse than being judgmental is putting words into someones mouth, words they didn't say.

Stop trying to present me in a false light.
dc

In "harping", I am describing how it feels to be an outsider looking in to the cliques and social circles of the church and wondering what's wrong with you that no one wants to be your friend. I'm sorry you took that personally; it wasn't meant as an accusation. I am merely describing the way my wife and I feel every week when we go to church. At present, every week is a challenge. This, despite both holding leadership callings.

Again, I'm not even talking about sinners, past or present, who are ostracized within the church. I'm talking about regular every day members with normal life struggles who instead of being embraced and helped find themselves excluded and looked down on because their struggles aren't socially acceptable within the church. Surprisingly, experiencing infertility or miscarriages is fairly taboo; you don't talk about it in public. If you do, be prepared to lose friends. I find this behavior astonishingly inappropriate for disciples of Christ. Heaven forbid I should ever discuss the trials that really trouble my soul.

You were the one focusing on the sin/lifestyle element, to which I can feel a degree of compassion as well since who hasn't sinned? I understand the desire to point them in the right direction, but one does this best by first showing love and compassion, as Christ did. Difference of opinion there, I guess.

[Red]

Why is miscarriage and infertility taboo? I find that to be strange that you and your wife are treated differently for that reason. What is it they do to y'all? Do they run the other direction? Ignore you? I can't understand why the other members would treat you differently for your hardship. I've noticed that women tend to hide the fact they've had a miscarriage as though it were shameful. I can't understand that either. I have noticed the less financially stable members and those with disabilities are treated unfair. I hate it. Perhaps I'm biased in the other direction, but these are the ones I usually reach out to because they seem to need the friendships.

[Fiannan]

I have often said that it is wrong to treat people who think or act differently than you as less-than-you. However, it is a human trait. Even the scriptures take great pains to categorize people by tribe or ethnic group. However, we should not allow ourselves then to break off into our own special group and mock those who are part of the main group. Often the downtrodden will react by seeing the people who abused them as inferiors. Jesus said we are to love our fellow believers as ourselves. Church should be a place we help each other grow, not a place we stare off at each other and feel either inferior or superior.

[iWriteStuff]

Why is miscarriage and infertility taboo? I find that to be strange that you and your wife are treated differently for that reason. What is it they do to y'all? Do they run the other direction? Ignore you? I can't understand why the other members would treat you differently for your hardship. I've noticed that women tend to hide the fact they've had a miscarriage as though it were shameful. I can't understand that either. I have noticed the less financially stable members and those with disabilities are treated unfair. I hate it. Perhaps I'm biased in the other direction, but these are the ones I usually reach out to because they seem to need the friendships.

I wish I understood the "why" of it better than I do. It starts when you're first married and the older women in Relief Society start looking down on you for not having kids yet ("Where are your babies? Don't you want to have kids?"). It gets worse as you get older and discover you really can't have kids. All the other women your age are popping out babies like clockwork, throwing play dates for the other moms, doing lunches, etc., and you're not invited because... well, duh. Ya got no kids for play dates, nor commonalities to talk about.

The miscarriage shame is the odd one for me. I don't get it, but I know plenty of women who won't even talk about it to their friends. It's like admitting they failed or something, even when they aren't to blame for any of it. My wife was the odd one who actually wanted to talk about it - to heal, to understand it, to bring it out of the shadows. Not a popular move, obviously.

At any rate, the wife and I discussed the article again last night and came to the conclusion that we will redouble our efforts to reach out to others in the ward in need of friendship, regardless of whether the same is done for us. We will find those who need uplifting as much as we do and lift where we stand.

[David13]

"Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go they way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past."

Is it adultery or prostitute? Didn't he tell the prostitute to go forth an sin no more?

However, the point is, did he then "hang out" with her? No, then what? He parted company with her. He left her on her lonesome.

No, he didn't lecture her. He just called her conduct sin. He did not say, oh yeah, man, that stuff was "cool" or "ok". He said it was sin. No lecture, nothing about it, just that was sin. Period.
And then what" Go forth and sin no more. Again no lecture, no "hanging out". Just a command. Not precatory, not you shall not, but an absolute order. Don't do that any more. A command, I command you not to do that any more.

But then you are right, I agree, our issue here is not sin, it's just our attitude toward it.

And it's clear to me that both Jesus Christ and Alma have a harsh and strict attitude about it.
dc
dc

The woman taken in adultery was.... committing adultery. I called on that example to demonstrate how Christ Himself handled the matter of people guilty of sexual sin. Sure, he didn't "hang out" with her. But read the rest of the NT. Christ was constantly accused of "hanging out" with sinners (Matt 21:28-32). The only people he absolutely REFUSED to hang out with were the self-righteous scribes and Pharisees who went about condemning everyone.

And hey guess what? We're all sinners; even the best of us. The difference between righteous sinners and wicked sinners is whether we are trying to repent. Since you can never be sure who is repenting and who is not, perhaps you should leave the lectures for their priesthood leaders. That's what they're called to do, when necessary.

I would agree that Christ and Alma are strict; but I would also put it to you that they were merciful, compassionate, and sought to nourish the sinner back to repentance rather than cast them out. That's the example.

You keep harping about "cast them out". Nobody said anything about cast them out. What we said is, do we get to the point where we love the sinner and NOT the sin, or where we end up in essence accepting the sin. Take a look at the way Samizdat put it. I thought he summed it up rather nicely.

But throwing in this business about "cast them out" you again paint me with your colored brush when I said no such thing. Again, false attribution.
Worse than being judgmental is putting words into someones mouth, words they didn't say.

Stop trying to present me in a false light.
dc

In "harping", I am describing how it feels to be an outsider looking in to the cliques and social circles of the church and wondering what's wrong with you that no one wants to be your friend. I'm sorry you took that personally; it wasn't meant as an accusation. I am merely describing the way my wife and I feel every week when we go to church. At present, every week is a challenge. This, despite both holding leadership callings.

Again, I'm not even talking about sinners, past or present, who are ostracized within the church. I'm talking about regular every day members with normal life struggles who instead of being embraced and helped find themselves excluded and looked down on because their struggles aren't socially acceptable within the church. Surprisingly, experiencing infertility or miscarriages is fairly taboo; you don't talk about it in public. If you do, be prepared to lose friends. I find this behavior astonishingly inappropriate for disciples of Christ. Heaven forbid I should ever discuss the trials that really trouble my soul.

You were the one focusing on the sin/lifestyle element, to which I can feel a degree of compassion as well since who hasn't sinned? I understand the desire to point them in the right direction, but one does this best by first showing love and compassion, as Christ did. Difference of opinion there, I guess.

Love and compassion starts with saying something.
dc

[iWriteStuff]

Love and compassion starts with saying something.
dc

That has rarely been my experience, but agree to disagree I guess.

[Mark]

"A life devoted to serving others reflects the best conceivable set of values. Regardless of what we say we believe, such a life SHOWS what we believe: that our hearts are attuned to others, that we feel the pain of the vulnerable and seek to relieve it, that we aspire to emulate Christ and his life of selfless service. If that kind of compassion- the act of putting ourselves in the place of the other and seeking their best interest- is the lodestar of our life, then That is true religion."


"The church is a place to worship, to serve others, to learn to get along with people we might not choose as neighbors or family, and to find kinship with a large and timeless community of disciples. It is a workshop for the soul. But ultimately, we are responsible for our own life of discipleship, for finding spiritual nourishment in our own sacred spaces. At the same time, we are part of the body of Christ- and we can influence the collective only if we are part of it. As an outspoken President once noted, " It Is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."

Terrill Givens

[David13]

Why is miscarriage and infertility taboo? I find that to be strange that you and your wife are treated differently for that reason. What is it they do to y'all? Do they run the other direction? Ignore you? I can't understand why the other members would treat you differently for your hardship. I've noticed that women tend to hide the fact they've had a miscarriage as though it were shameful. I can't understand that either. I have noticed the less financially stable members and those with disabilities are treated unfair. I hate it. Perhaps I'm biased in the other direction, but these are the ones I usually reach out to because they seem to need the friendships.

I wish I understood the "why" of it better than I do. It starts when you're first married and the older women in Relief Society start looking down on you for not having kids yet ("Where are your babies? Don't you want to have kids?"). It gets worse as you get older and discover you really can't have kids. All the other women your age are popping out babies like clockwork, throwing play dates for the other moms, doing lunches, etc., and you're not invited because... well, duh. Ya got no kids for play dates, nor commonalities to talk about.

The miscarriage shame is the odd one for me. I don't get it, but I know plenty of women who won't even talk about it to their friends. It's like admitting they failed or something, even when they aren't to blame for any of it. My wife was the odd one who actually wanted to talk about it - to heal, to understand it, to bring it out of the shadows. Not a popular move, obviously.

At any rate, the wife and I discussed the article again last night and came to the conclusion that we will redouble our efforts to reach out to others in the ward in need of friendship, regardless of whether the same is done for us. We will find those who need uplifting as much as we do and lift where we stand.

I put myself in the same situation there as the first paragraph. I never had kids. I will pay the price for that for the rest of my life. I'm forgiven for it but the wages will always be that I won't fit in with the others and AND IT'S A BIG AND, I won't have the kids (now adults and parents of their own children) to help me in my old age.
And I think that's why it's important to emphasize that about all sins, that these young people need to see and hear that they need to consider the mistakes they make now and what effect if will have when they are my age.
In terms of children, I know the young people today all seem to be choosing not to have kids.
I can't address your second paragraph. No idea.

Your third paragraph. There you have it. That's always been my attitude. It's not up to me to look for anything for me. It's up to me to go out there and do what I can for the others.
dc

[David13]

Love and compassion starts with saying something.
dc

That has rarely been my experience, but agree to disagree I guess.

Read your 3rd paragraph again. How are you going to reach out. Without saying something? Or by saying something?
dc

Let me give you specifics. With regard to your third paragraph, any meeting house I go to for Sacrament meeting, I stand by the door and smile at people with my hand out as others come in, and I say good morning. Kinda hard for me to be ignored that way.
dc

[JohnnyL]

I'm a dude. I have thicker skin. I've never counted on the church to provide friendships, so I've never been disappointed. But the women in my life want friends who are members of the church. What they discover more often than not is that it's a catty club with cliques. Maybe you don't see it; perhaps you've never felt it. If so, lucky man you! But there is a problem with the culture of the church and it doesn't help to put on blinders and pretend there isn't.

It's often dependent on the local (and stake) unit(s). We've been in some places where it's pretty good, and others where it's not.

Lots of sisters have problems with similar things. From backstabbing/ lying/ manipulating to steal friends, to outcasting, to snubbing, to ignoring, to openly competing and bragging, to negative comments on FB, to cutting comments made to the air, etc. Lots of relatives have run into these problems.

On the other hand, we've been in a place where people with tattoos, jail time, WoW problems, law of chastity problems (in the past and present), married and divorced three times, and more are better accepted and more welcomed at church than my family and I are--reverse situation than the article. I have stood in line in the grocery store right behind and right in front of members who have done their best to ignore me, and done a great job at it. We have gone to activity after activity where we have to talk to people if we want to talk at all, and then only a few will talk to us. We have home taught families that didn't want us there (until it was so evident and non-changing that we stopped). It's so bad service projects I attend are always huge fails. Etc. Luckily my wife doesn't worry much about it, though I'm pretty sure we will be moving next summer, at the latest.

[iWriteStuff]

Love and compassion starts with saying something.
dc

That has rarely been my experience, but agree to disagree I guess.

Read your 3rd paragraph again. How are you going to reach out. Without saying something? Or by saying something?
dc

Let me give you specifics. With regard to your third paragraph, any meeting house I go to for Sacrament meeting, I stand by the door and smile at people with my hand out as others come in, and I say good morning. Kinda hard for me to be ignored that way.
dc

Same as we usually do - invite people over for dinner, get to know them, drop off baked goods at their houses, volunteer to help with childcare or whatever, try to make friends, etc. Naturally that involves vocal communication, but that's ancillary to the actions themselves.

I think the caveat is we intend to do more than talk, and our activities are not limited to inside the church building. To be fair, the list above includes things we've been doing for years - we've just fallen off a bit due to the aforementioned setbacks last year.

I want Zion, and Zion implies more love and less walls. I'm working on it.

[JohnnyL]

No Joseph Smith quote yet about how to correct our brethren?

[shadow]

Another thread of people judging Mormons for supposedly judging others. It's awesome, but fiction.

If you feel anxious wearing slacks to church then wear a dress. Most couldn't care less what you wear and the few who do aren't most, so no need to blanket judge everyone. The last EQ president in my ward always wore jeans and NEVER wore a suit. Sometimes he wore a tie with his shirt, which sometimes was white, but usually he wore a sweater, even in summer. Nobody cared. He certainly didn't. He was OK with himself, unlike many others who'd feel anxious about wearing something a bit different.

There's probably a reason why most LDS church leaders are white males. Ponderize it a bit and you may figure it out. Lineages and tribes have been given various responsibilities from the beginning. Start by reading the OT for some answers. It's not rocket science nor is it politically correct, which probably throws many off.

People's stigmas are almost always their own. Maybe the author of the story has a problem that he might not even be aware of.

[Fiannan]

Start by reading the OT for some answers. It's not rocket science nor is it politically correct, which probably throws many off.

True. Midgets and ugly men were not allowed to officiate in the temple in those days.

[Red]

Another thread of people judging Mormons for supposedly judging others. It's awesome, but fiction.

If you feel anxious wearing slacks to church then wear a dress. Most couldn't care less what you wear and the few who do aren't most, so no need to blanket judge everyone. The last EQ president in my ward always wore jeans and NEVER wore a suit. Sometimes he wore a tie with his shirt, which sometimes was white, but usually he wore a sweater, even in summer. Nobody cared. He certainly didn't. He was OK with himself, unlike many others who'd feel anxious about wearing something a bit different.

There's probably a reason why most LDS church leaders are white males. Ponderize it a bit and you may figure it out. Lineages and tribes have been given various responsibilities from the beginning. Start by reading the OT for some answers. It's not rocket science nor is it politically correct, which probably throws many off.

People's stigmas are almost always their own. Maybe the author of the story has a problem that he might not even be aware of.

What I find to be the most difficult thing for people to overcome is that while they don't care what someone might wear, as you say, they still have that double take or long stare when someone isn't dressed to code. You're still right, they largely don't care, but their actions indicate that something is going through their mind. And what is it that's going through their mind? People who "don't care" still haven't mastered the art of not caring in their mind. If they did, then no one would get an awkward look or second glance when they showed up in jeans at church (You probably don't do that to your EQ pres bc you're used to it by now). They obviously see the clothes, not the person. But that's probably human nature. I imagine it's difficult to conquer that. I certainly haven't. I may not give anyone a second look at church when they wear jeans, but I can't help a second glance at the extremely unordinary like facial piercings, blue hair or full body part tattoos. But mostly that's because I don't see it every day and I'm interested in what I am seeing, In or out of Mormon settings.

[Red]

I am NOT posting this to stir a WoW debate. Another forum member shared it with me and if you focus on what the article says about how Mormons treat other Mormons for not following the WoW or the cultural differences as it pertains to the WoW, then the article is interesting as it pertains to the OP.

http://local.sltrib.com/online/WoW/

[Ezra]

Quakers used to defy state churches in the early days of our nation by showing up to services of the state church naked. If our state of not being judgemental means not looking down on anyone no matter how they are dressed then why not extend that to nudity during LDS services? I know that some of the people who read fluffy articles on "never categorizing people" would make an exception here, but on what grounds?

Because sure enough, someone will try to take those naked women as wives...Don't judge the naked....don't judge the polygamist. =))

Humans are hard-wired to categorize actions and people. That will never change.

Yes it will. Make sure your on that boat.

[David13]

Start by reading the OT for some answers. It's not rocket science nor is it politically correct, which probably throws many off.

True. Midgets and ugly men were not allowed to officiate in the temple in those days.

Thanks. I'm very glad to hear they don't allow midgets in the church. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's midgets. Particularly in a church. In a circus, yeah, oh, I don't go to the circus.
dc

[David13]

Another thread of people judging Mormons for supposedly judging others. It's awesome, but fiction.

If you feel anxious wearing slacks to church then wear a dress. Most couldn't care less what you wear and the few who do aren't most, so no need to blanket judge everyone. The last EQ president in my ward always wore jeans and NEVER wore a suit. Sometimes he wore a tie with his shirt, which sometimes was white, but usually he wore a sweater, even in summer. Nobody cared. He certainly didn't. He was OK with himself, unlike many others who'd feel anxious about wearing something a bit different.

There's probably a reason why most LDS church leaders are white males. Ponderize it a bit and you may figure it out. Lineages and tribes have been given various responsibilities from the beginning. Start by reading the OT for some answers. It's not rocket science nor is it politically correct, which probably throws many off.

People's stigmas are almost always their own. Maybe the author of the story has a problem that he might not even be aware of.

What I find to be the most difficult thing for people to overcome is that while they don't care what someone might wear, as you say, they still have that double take or long stare when someone isn't dressed to code. You're still right, they largely don't care, but their actions indicate that something is going through their mind. And what is it that's going through their mind? People who "don't care" still haven't mastered the art of not caring in their mind. If they did, then no one would get an awkward look or second glance when they showed up in jeans at church (You probably don't do that to your EQ pres bc you're used to it by now). They obviously see the clothes, not the person. But that's probably human nature. I imagine it's difficult to conquer that. I certainly haven't. I may not give anyone a second look at church when they wear jeans, but I can't help a second glance at the extremely unordinary like facial piercings, blue hair or full body part tattoos. But mostly that's because I don't see it every day and I'm interested in what I am seeing, In or out of Mormon settings.

I'm glad you mention blue hair. We had a nice lady in our ward show up with her two little ones one day with ... blue hair?
I had to say something but I never did. The door greeter (hands out programs) asked, why? Something different, she says.
But the real reaction was that she got a calling and seems to be always in conversations with other members. I think they thought she was calling for attention (attention something or other?) and all started being more attentive with her.

How many of you wear jeans, or whatever just to get a rise out of the members?

How many of you feel frustrated when they pay no attention?

dc