Mormon Cultural Revolution

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iWriteStuff
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Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by iWriteStuff »

My wife shared this with me last night - said she saw it on Facebook, written by a guy named Greg Trimble. I'm curious about your thoughts on it.
I’ve had many experiences lately with people online and offline that lead me to believe that there’s a coming revolution that will be taking place inside of Mormonism. This revolution will not be against the prophets and apostles. It won’t be against history or doctrine. And it won’t undermine the foundational principles upon which this church was initially built upon. No… this revolution will be against culture… and everything that entails. This revolution will be against those that judge, those that hate, and those that refuse to see past their narrow, regurgitated, cliche point of views. This revolution will be a revolution of love.

Do you remember what was happening in Israel right about the time that Christ came on to the scene? Israel had started to live by their own set of oral laws and traditions, or what we might refer to today as “culture?” The “culture” in Israel when Christ showed up was one of the most judgemental and hypocritical cultures the world had ever seen. It was a very isolated and unaccepting culture. But Christ showed up and cast a net over all types of people. The Greeks, the Romans, The Samaritans, and every other nation across the globe. His net covered even the worst of repentant sinners. The only people that were excluded or damned were the unrepentant elite… the “scribes, Pharisees, and hypocrites” who “strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.” It was Christ who brought with him a revolution of love, empathy, and compassion. He built a culture that was geared toward the lowly of heart and revolted against those that spent their lives pointing out the flaws in others. “For ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.” (Matt 23) The bulk of Israel was living according to their culture and their superstition. This has been the bane of each and every covenant society, which caused Joseph Smith to say: “What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down.” (History of the Church, 4:445 (7 November 1841) The doctrine of this church doesn’t lose people. It’s the culture and superstition that causes unnecessary strife.

I can imagine a time not too far off where a gay man, a straight man, a biker with full body tats, a woman who smokes, a man who reeks of liquor, a recently married couple who is having trouble with tithing, a recently re-baptized excommunicated member, a man with a full beard and jeans, and a returned missionary who is addicted to porn sitting in the same congregation together, who make it through all three hours of church without someone dressing them down with their eyes or their words. It’ll be a time where the stalwart multi-generational Mormon honors the saying that is on each of the signs that represent our church… “Visitors Welcome.” Not the sinless visitor, because Jesus said that the “whole need not a physician”, but the visitor who comes with every last bit of weakness that they have. It’ll be a time where the families in that congregation recognize how hard it is for people to set foot inside a church once they feel like they’ve strayed too far.

I’ll never forget walking into a Michigan trailer park and knocking on the door of a woman who was on the records of the church but hadn’t been active in over 25 years. She had a husband now, and a couple of kids. I still remember her sitting in a rocking chair, skin and bones, and tearful welcoming us in to sit with her and her husband. You could see that she had been ravaged by the years of drug use. When we asked her if she’d come to church with us, I’ll never forget her response:

“I’ll never set foot in church again. I’ve done too much. God doesn’t want me in his house ever again.”

I quickly opened up Alma 36, read a few passages from a prophet who had been to the depths of hell and back, and then assured her that she had not “done too much.” We sat there… as she began to cry uncontrollably. She rehearsed a life of sin unlike anything I had heard before… and said emphatically: “GOD DOES NOT WANT ME IN HIS HOUSE EVER AGAIN.” It’s not easy for people to come to church who have lived a life of mental torment and anguish because of their past choices. They know that what they’ve been doing was wrong. They don’t need someone else to remind them about it. When they do finally take that step forward, there’s a good chance that this is the feeling of their hearts as they make their way through those chapel doors:

“I’m here because I need the help of the Savior… and I need your help. I’m here because I have no hope, no happiness, no family, and no friends. I’m here because I’ve hit rock bottom, and I’m here because the merciful hand of the Savior guided me this way through the power of the Holy Ghost. I’m here because the light that is within me has not been completely extinguished and I hope and pray that you will put some kindling on that fire and not extinguish it with your disdain for me.”

I believe this revolution will produce an environment in which people always feel comfortable when they step inside a church building. It’ll feel like home. They’ll never have to feel like they’ve got to watch their back. They’ll never have to worry about what sister so and so thinks about her outfit, or what brother such and such thinks about the fact that he returned home early from his mission. Those that have gone astray from the church in their younger years will feel welcome when they come back to mend their wounds. They won’t have to suffer the indignation of others based on times that have long since passed and sins that have long since been atoned for. The past history of a person will mean nothing to this new generation of saints. “Who are you now?!” is what we’ll ask. Not “who were you then?”

I wonder if people looked at the Sons of Mosiah and said… “Who do they think they are? How can they be missionaries? How can they represent Christ? How can they give advice in church when they were the vilest of sinners?” I wonder if those great missionaries were made to pay for their sins by their contemporaries even though those sins had already been paid for? Because of these repentant boys ability to overcome their past, they may have been the only Nephites alive who were willing and able to make an impact with those wretched Lamanites. People who have lived through massive challenges in life or made major mistakes and have been willing to make themselves vulnerable enough to empathize with others are able to reach people like those hostile Lamanites who we thought might have never been reached. And all of this revolves around love. Love that is passed from person to person to person. An extended hand, an arm around a shoulder, or a fervent prayer on behalf of an individual who has been through the ringer in life. Our culture needs a reboot. We need to pull for each other instead of being like the whiners in the parable Jesus gave about the workers in the vineyard.

One of the most influential senior missionaries I served with during my mission once told me that he loved the smell of alcohol and tobacco at church. He said, “It’s the smell of change.” There’s someone sitting in that pew… trying to kick a habit, learning of Christ, and hoping for a friend to help take their mind off of that addiction… and yet some of us will move to the furthest pew and simultaneously say things that throw it right back in their face. This is bad! This is wrong! How can people do this or that! Slam! Whack! Bam! And the shame begins all over again for that struggling soul as they make their way back to their lonely apartment.
I see a place where people have study groups again to provide support for those that need friends to talk to about the things they hear on the internet and social media. I see a place where people support one another, ask questions, resolve concerns, and speak honestly about the things that give them trouble in life and in the church. I see a time where “home-teaching” is just referred to as “ministering” and more lessons will revolve around love and not quotas. I see a time where “fellowshipping” will be replaced by “friendshipping” and where pure love is a stronger motivator than guilt.

I think this revolution will produce a people who don’t make a checklist of things they can and cannot do on the sabbath… and then hold others to their own standard and checklist. I think we’ll see a time where programmatic meetings are cut by 50% and where the efficiency of those meetings are increased by 50%. We’ll spend less time behind closed doors meeting about all the stuff we should be doing, and more time ministering to the proverbial fatherless and the widows. We’ll get back to true religion and root out any programmatic religion.

Members will increase their personal studying of the scriptures again. Missionaries will actually start memorizing scriptures again so that there will be water in their well. And callings won’t be looked at as promotions where congratulations are in order. Any form of pageantry will die with this revolution during the uprising of the greatest generation of saints this world has ever seen.
I hope this revolution happens fast… because this world is in need of love… and that love will need to go out from Zion.
http://www.gregtrimble.com/the-coming-r ... mormonism/

My personal feeling is I would love it if this happened. My fear is that it won't. My wife said flat out she doesn't believe the culture will ever change. I'm personally hoping she's wrong.

Thoughts?

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h_p
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by h_p »

I can imagine a time not too far off where a gay man, a straight man, a biker with full body tats, a woman who smokes, a man who reeks of liquor, a recently married couple who is having trouble with tithing, a recently re-baptized excommunicated member, a man with a full beard and jeans, and a returned missionary who is addicted to porn sitting in the same congregation together, who make it through all three hours of church without someone dressing them down with their eyes or their words.
We already allow people full of pride, idolatry, greed and racism to sit in the congregation together. The rest should be pretty easy.

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Robin Hood
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Post by Robin Hood »

I saw this article on Facebook too.
Personally, I think it's mostly nonsense.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by iWriteStuff »

Robin Hood wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:11 am I saw this article on Facebook too.
Personally, I think it's mostly nonsense.
I'm guessing you don't spend a lot of time in Relief Society? :-?

Lizzy60
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by Lizzy60 »

I don't believe it will happen. I can't even consider wearing nice slacks to church without having an anxiety attack. I don't live in the MorDor, and I see people every day with tats and piercings who would most likely be uncomfortable in an LDS church, once they discovered how ingrained the Mormon Culture is here in the US. Watch Gen Conf next weekend, and tell me how many people you see with a visible tat or multiple piercings. Tell me how many men on the stand are wearing anything other than a white shirt and conservative tie. The membership of the Church is less than 50% white. How many GA's are non-white? We are so far away from the Cultural Revolution that truly we will have to experience TEOTWAWKI to effect any sort of meaningful change.

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LatterDayLizard
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by LatterDayLizard »

He is describing zion. Someday...
...or now, if we can drop our cynicism and be that change within our own families and congregations.
Zion starts at home, wot.

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David13
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Post by David13 »

It's funny.
It's supposedly about love, but starts out with a scathing indictment of everyone in the church.
It's also rather convoluted in that it isn't clear if he loves the sinner, or the sin. He seems rather accepting of the sin. And the lack of repentance.
My understanding, so far, is that it is not "you are saved, so nothing else matters, sin all you want". It's "go forth and sin no more".
I think it's part of our responsibility.
When I was a child, I saw ants in my grandfathers cabin in the northern woods. They had a project to one side, and something else to the other, and they would walk along lines on the wall boards. Their lines were rather straight and narrow and as each ant passed another, they would wiggle their antlers or hands, or what they have, seemingly to confirm the path to the one passing in the other direction. If one strayed from the path, the other would go over and intercept the wayward one, and get him back on the path. This was part of the community project, and they needed to go from one spot to the other along those lines.
And I think humans do and have the same thing, the same responsibility. You've heard Chris Rock talk about your friends telling you "hey man, you oughta not be doin' that ****.
Why don't we do the same thing? When someone is wrong, do we say nothing, just let them go off the path and destroy themselves? Or do we say something. I always say something.
Now you may say, oh, you will make them self conscious.
WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SELF CONSCIOUS ALL THE TIME.
We are always supposed to be awake and aware if we are doing right or not.
And isn't it nice to get by with a little help from your friends from time to time?
Sometimes people don't see that brick wall right in front of them that they are going to run into.
What is it about general conference.
Is it, hey man, whatever turns you on is cool?
Or is it a series of admonitions about right and wrong?
And how to stay on that path.
dc

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David13
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by David13 »

Lizzy60 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:16 am I don't believe it will happen. I can't even consider wearing nice slacks to church without having an anxiety attack. I don't live in the MorDor, and I see people every day with tats and piercings who would most likely be uncomfortable in an LDS church, once they discovered how ingrained the Mormon Culture is here in the US. Watch Gen Conf next weekend, and tell me how many people you see with a visible tat or multiple piercings. Tell me how many men on the stand are wearing anything other than a white shirt and conservative tie. The membership of the Church is less than 50% white. How many GA's are non-white? We are so far away from the Cultural Revolution that truly we will have to experience TEOTWAWKI to effect any sort of meaningful change.

Indeed we are not at all far enough away from the "cultural revolution" as the "cultural revolution" is part of Satan's plan to destroy humanity, to bring everyone into his sinful realm.
The idea here in having religion, in having a church is that there is a difference between right and wrong, and we choose right. And we encourage and preach the gospel to encourage others to do the same, and not to accept the vast, modern day, acceptable realm of sin. And all of it's trappings and emblems and signs.
The GAs are called by God, not by a racist Affirmative Action quota system.
dc

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by iWriteStuff »

David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:35 am
Lizzy60 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:16 am I don't believe it will happen. I can't even consider wearing nice slacks to church without having an anxiety attack. I don't live in the MorDor, and I see people every day with tats and piercings who would most likely be uncomfortable in an LDS church, once they discovered how ingrained the Mormon Culture is here in the US. Watch Gen Conf next weekend, and tell me how many people you see with a visible tat or multiple piercings. Tell me how many men on the stand are wearing anything other than a white shirt and conservative tie. The membership of the Church is less than 50% white. How many GA's are non-white? We are so far away from the Cultural Revolution that truly we will have to experience TEOTWAWKI to effect any sort of meaningful change.

Indeed we are not at all far enough away from the "cultural revolution" as the "cultural revolution" is part of Satan's plan to destroy humanity, to bring everyone into his sinful realm.
The idea here in having religion, in having a church is that there is a difference between right and wrong, and we choose right. And we encourage and preach the gospel to encourage others to do the same, and not to accept the vast, modern day, acceptable realm of sin. And all of it's trappings and emblems and signs.
I think you lost me there.... I believe the point of the article was to accept the sinner and try to rehabilitate them, not accept the sin and celebrate their wayward journey; to bring a sinner back to Christ rather than judge them as lost and cast them aside with rudeness and snobbery. The whole article advocates embracing people and being ok with their past as long as they are pointed to a better future.

The whole premise is Christ-like rehabilitation and you attribute it to "Satan's plan to destroy humanity"? :-s

I don't get you, David. Were I in a position of having spent the better part of my life estranged from the church due to personal mistakes, I would want to feel welcomed back, not judged or cast off by the "dutiful brother" in the story of the Prodigal Son.

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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by Ezra »

If that happens it will be due to the cleansing of the church spoken about in d&c 112 23-26

Otherwise i don't see that happening. There are many judgmental people in the church.

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David13
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

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iWriteStuff wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:02 am
David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:35 am
Lizzy60 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:16 am I don't believe it will happen. I can't even consider wearing nice slacks to church without having an anxiety attack. I don't live in the MorDor, and I see people every day with tats and piercings who would most likely be uncomfortable in an LDS church, once they discovered how ingrained the Mormon Culture is here in the US. Watch Gen Conf next weekend, and tell me how many people you see with a visible tat or multiple piercings. Tell me how many men on the stand are wearing anything other than a white shirt and conservative tie. The membership of the Church is less than 50% white. How many GA's are non-white? We are so far away from the Cultural Revolution that truly we will have to experience TEOTWAWKI to effect any sort of meaningful change.

Indeed we are not at all far enough away from the "cultural revolution" as the "cultural revolution" is part of Satan's plan to destroy humanity, to bring everyone into his sinful realm.
The idea here in having religion, in having a church is that there is a difference between right and wrong, and we choose right. And we encourage and preach the gospel to encourage others to do the same, and not to accept the vast, modern day, acceptable realm of sin. And all of it's trappings and emblems and signs.
I think you lost me there.... I believe the point of the article was to accept the sinner and try to rehabilitate them, not accept the sin and celebrate their wayward journey; to bring a sinner back to Christ rather than judge them as lost and cast them aside with rudeness and snobbery. The whole article advocates embracing people and being ok with their past as long as they are pointed to a better future.

The whole premise is Christ-like rehabilitation and you attribute it to "Satan's plan to destroy humanity"? :-s

I don't get you, David. Were I in a position of having spent the better part of my life estranged from the church due to personal mistakes, I would want to feel welcomed back, not judged or cast off by the "dutiful brother" in the story of the Prodigal Son.
Well, you got the part about you don't get me right.
I have not rejected anyone with rudeness and snobbery.
If indeed the message is embracing people and THEIR UNDERSTANDING THAT THEIR PAST WAS NOT OK AND THAT THEY ARE NOW POINTED IN A BETTER DIRECTION, and not just there to say, ok, the church is now ok and accepting and celebratory about sin, and tattoos and drug use, and homosexuality so now I can join the church then I'm fine with it.

But it's clear to me that far too many interpret all this to mean the latter and not the former.

Read your own post there. You say "being ok with their past". The only way to understand the second part, the "as long as they are pointed to a better future" is if the past is accepted as NOT OK. Otherwise why would they, or we need a better future?

This is the flaw that comes up. The repentance part is too easily forgotten about.

I see you have pulled a good one on me, indicting me as the "dutiful brother".

Let's go instead to Alma's admonitions to Corianton. Read that section and tell me if you think I should sum that up with "ok, yeah man, I'm ok with your past, but now let's move on." (Alma 39)

Or something a little more involved. And strict?
dc

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David13
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by David13 »

Ezra wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:47 am If that happens it will be due to the cleansing of the church spoken about in d&c 112 23-26

Otherwise i don't see that happening. There are many judgmental people in the church.


I have only been in the church two years, but I'm not really sure I have encountered anyone "judgmental" in the church.

Well, other than perhaps, Alma? In Alma 39? Is that judgmental. Are you saying the Book of Mormon is judgmental?

dc

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

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David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:50 am This is the flaw that comes up. The repentance part is too easily forgotten about.

I see you have pulled a good one on me, indicting me as the "dutiful brother".

Let's go instead to Alma's admonitions to Corianton. Read that section and tell me if you think I should sum that up with "ok, yeah man, I'm ok with your past, but now let's move on." (Alma 39)

Or something a little more involved. And strict?
dc
I guess my point is if you want to go to church with only fully repented sinners, you might find yourself attending a very small gathering. There are far more people in need of outreach and compassion. Even Alma had compassion on his son. Heck, Corianton didn't even get sent home from his mission.

Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go thy way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past.

At any rate, this isn't even entirely about sin. The context for my sharing this comes in the form of a personal story. My wife miscarried four times last year and had a very difficult time coping with it. What was the response of the women in her social circle, all members of the church? They essentially cast her out and now spend their Sundays "throwing shade" on her or ignoring her completely. That is why she shared this article with me, and also why she doubts there will be any change. She didn't sin; she did no wrong. She suffered and because her Mormon friends thought it a bother they cast her out.

Or try this one: my first wife was a convert to the church. She thought it meant a new life with a new accepting family. Then we moved to Utah and she was treated like the vilest of sinners because of her past (which, by way of baptism, was forgiven). The door closed on her to that new life and accepting family. She felt judged and rejected. Within a short time she left the church (and thereafter left me, too).

I'm a dude. I have thicker skin. I've never counted on the church to provide friendships, so I've never been disappointed. But the women in my life want friends who are members of the church. What they discover more often than not is that it's a catty club with cliques. Maybe you don't see it; perhaps you've never felt it. If so, lucky man you! But there is a problem with the culture of the church and it doesn't help to put on blinders and pretend there isn't.

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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

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iWriteStuff wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:40 pm
David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:50 am This is the flaw that comes up. The repentance part is too easily forgotten about.

I see you have pulled a good one on me, indicting me as the "dutiful brother".

Let's go instead to Alma's admonitions to Corianton. Read that section and tell me if you think I should sum that up with "ok, yeah man, I'm ok with your past, but now let's move on." (Alma 39)

Or something a little more involved. And strict?
dc
I guess my point is if you want to go to church with only fully repented sinners, you might find yourself attending a very small gathering. There are far more people in need of outreach and compassion. Even Alma had compassion on his son. Heck, Corianton didn't even get sent home from his mission.

Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go thy way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past.

At any rate, this isn't even entirely about sin. The context for my sharing this comes in the form of a personal story. My wife miscarried four times last year and had a very difficult time coping with it. What was the response of the women in her social circle, all members of the church? They essentially cast her out and now spend their Sundays "throwing shade" on her or ignoring her completely. That is why she shared this article with me, and also why she doubts there will be any change. She didn't sin; she did no wrong. She suffered and because her Mormon friends thought it a bother they cast her out.

Or try this one: my first wife was a convert to the church. She thought it meant a new life with a new accepting family. Then we moved to Utah and she was treated like the vilest of sinners because of her past (which, by way of baptism, was forgiven). The door closed on her to that new life and accepting family. She felt judged and rejected. Within a short time she left the church (and thereafter left me, too).

I'm a dude. I have thicker skin. I've never counted on the church to provide friendships, so I've never been disappointed. But the women in my life want friends who are members of the church. What they discover more often than not is that it's a catty club with cliques. Maybe you don't see it; perhaps you've never felt it. If so, lucky man you! But there is a problem with the culture of the church and it doesn't help to put on blinders and pretend there isn't.


Well, I'm well aware that all people have attitudes.
And my luck has never been to avoiding their attitudes, but to learn how and why they have those attitudes and live with them accordingly.
I have mentioned here previously that I am aware that all my life people generally have either thought of me far more good that I actually am, or far more worse.
But the important thing I have always done is never develop a grudge against anyone or the church. I recognize I'm no different from any of them.
I hang with the ones I want to hang with, and avoid the ones I don't.
Just like you, and everyone else.

Where did I say Jesus sat and lectured the prostitute? No where. So you are making false attribution against me. Tut tut.
However, are you going to deny that Alma lectured Corianton? Or say that Corianton was told by Alma "oh yeah man, going to prostitutes is ok?"
No, Alma indeed did lecture, call on the carpet, read the riot act to Corianton.

Many times we perceive things that are our own perceptions, and not reality.

One way or another, people always have an attitude toward me, and I know how to deal with it, how to confront it. Or ignore it. And that will continue to be my policy in Utah.
dc

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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by samizdat »

This revolution talked about by Greg Trimble will be brought out for better or for worse.

For better in that there will be greater love and understanding about the present situations of the members, instead of trying to attack their past. Instead of a dirty look to a person that is committing sin, we can really help them out with love.

For worse, it could very easily mean an overreaction to avoid all types of judgment calls and to accept the sin along with the sinner.

Caution is advised here. But I think it could happen. This I say where I am in a very conservative ward that looks at you funny if your shirt is even off white, or refuses to give interviews unless you are in Sunday dress.

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David13
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by David13 »

iWriteStuff wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:40 pm
David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:50 am This is the flaw that comes up. The repentance part is too easily forgotten about.

I see you have pulled a good one on me, indicting me as the "dutiful brother".

Let's go instead to Alma's admonitions to Corianton. Read that section and tell me if you think I should sum that up with "ok, yeah man, I'm ok with your past, but now let's move on." (Alma 39)

Or something a little more involved. And strict?
dc
Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go thy way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past.

At any rate, this isn't even entirely about sin.
"Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go they way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past."

Is it adultery or prostitute? Didn't he tell the prostitute to go forth an sin no more?

However, the point is, did he then "hang out" with her? No, then what? He parted company with her. He left her on her lonesome.

No, he didn't lecture her. He just called her conduct sin. He did not say, oh yeah, man, that stuff was "cool" or "ok". He said it was sin. No lecture, nothing about it, just that was sin. Period.
And then what" Go forth and sin no more. Again no lecture, no "hanging out". Just a command. Not precatory, not you shall not, but an absolute order. Don't do that any more. A command, I command you not to do that any more.

But then you are right, I agree, our issue here is not sin, it's just our attitude toward it.

And it's clear to me that both Jesus Christ and Alma have a harsh and strict attitude about it.
dc
dc

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David13
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by David13 »

samizdat wrote: March 28th, 2017, 1:23 pm This revolution talked about by Greg Trimble will be brought out for better or for worse.

For better in that there will be greater love and understanding about the present situations of the members, instead of trying to attack their past. Instead of a dirty look to a person that is committing sin, we can really help them out with love.

For worse, it could very easily mean an overreaction to avoid all types of judgment calls and to accept the sin along with the sinner.

Caution is advised here. But I think it could happen. This I say where I am in a very conservative ward that looks at you funny if your shirt is even off white, or refuses to give interviews unless you are in Sunday dress.
Very good assessment samizdat. That is what we are talking about.
However, I do not advocate giving the sinner a dirty look. I DO advocate saying something.
I was talking about ants there, wasn't I? They didn't give dirty looks. They physically walked over and made contact and brought the other back to the path. How that is to be done has to be determined on a case by case basis.
dc

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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by Rose Garden »

I would ask why the author of this article believes that a revolution will take place? If he believes the church members are judgmental and exclusive, why does he believe that they will change to become more accepting and welcoming? What evidence does he see of a coming change? He does say that he has seen signs indicating a revolution, but he doesn't specify exactly what they are or why they lead him to believe in a coming change.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by Rose Garden »

David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:27 am It's funny.
It's supposedly about love, but starts out with a scathing indictment of everyone in the church.
It's also rather convoluted in that it isn't clear if he loves the sinner, or the sin. He seems rather accepting of the sin. And the lack of repentance.
My understanding, so far, is that it is not "you are saved, so nothing else matters, sin all you want". It's "go forth and sin no more".
I think it's part of our responsibility.
When I was a child, I saw ants in my grandfathers cabin in the northern woods. They had a project to one side, and something else to the other, and they would walk along lines on the wall boards. Their lines were rather straight and narrow and as each ant passed another, they would wiggle their antlers or hands, or what they have, seemingly to confirm the path to the one passing in the other direction. If one strayed from the path, the other would go over and intercept the wayward one, and get him back on the path. This was part of the community project, and they needed to go from one spot to the other along those lines.
And I think humans do and have the same thing, the same responsibility. You've heard Chris Rock talk about your friends telling you "hey man, you oughta not be doin' that ****.
Why don't we do the same thing? When someone is wrong, do we say nothing, just let them go off the path and destroy themselves? Or do we say something. I always say something.
Now you may say, oh, you will make them self conscious.
WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SELF CONSCIOUS ALL THE TIME.
We are always supposed to be awake and aware if we are doing right or not.
And isn't it nice to get by with a little help from your friends from time to time?
Sometimes people don't see that brick wall right in front of them that they are going to run into.
What is it about general conference.
Is it, hey man, whatever turns you on is cool?
Or is it a series of admonitions about right and wrong?
And how to stay on that path.
dc
Your analogy could go either way. If the path the ants are on is the right path, then correction is helpful. But if the path was wrong, then their drawing each other back to the path would be detrimental to the individual ants. Or if they were crabs in a bucket, their drawing wayward crabs back into the fold would be destructive.
For me, I find that focusing on myself and on keeping myself on the right path is the most productive pursuit I can undertake, both for making sure I'm not a crab pulling others down and also to help draw people back on the right path. I simply show the right way, as best I can understand it, but don't try to push or pull anyone else onto it because I feel they might be the ones on the right path in the first place. I figure if correction is required, the Lord can take care of it. At least, I'm trying to become the sort of person who always leaves others in the hands of the Lord.
Last edited by Rose Garden on March 28th, 2017, 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by iWriteStuff »

David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 1:32 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:40 pm
David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:50 am This is the flaw that comes up. The repentance part is too easily forgotten about.

I see you have pulled a good one on me, indicting me as the "dutiful brother".

Let's go instead to Alma's admonitions to Corianton. Read that section and tell me if you think I should sum that up with "ok, yeah man, I'm ok with your past, but now let's move on." (Alma 39)

Or something a little more involved. And strict?
dc
Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go thy way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past.

At any rate, this isn't even entirely about sin.
"Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go they way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past."

Is it adultery or prostitute? Didn't he tell the prostitute to go forth an sin no more?

However, the point is, did he then "hang out" with her? No, then what? He parted company with her. He left her on her lonesome.

No, he didn't lecture her. He just called her conduct sin. He did not say, oh yeah, man, that stuff was "cool" or "ok". He said it was sin. No lecture, nothing about it, just that was sin. Period.
And then what" Go forth and sin no more. Again no lecture, no "hanging out". Just a command. Not precatory, not you shall not, but an absolute order. Don't do that any more. A command, I command you not to do that any more.

But then you are right, I agree, our issue here is not sin, it's just our attitude toward it.

And it's clear to me that both Jesus Christ and Alma have a harsh and strict attitude about it.
dc
dc
The woman taken in adultery was.... committing adultery. I called on that example to demonstrate how Christ Himself handled the matter of people guilty of sexual sin. Sure, he didn't "hang out" with her. But read the rest of the NT. Christ was constantly accused of "hanging out" with sinners (Matt 21:28-32). The only people he absolutely REFUSED to hang out with were the self-righteous scribes and Pharisees who went about condemning everyone.

And hey guess what? We're all sinners; even the best of us. The difference between righteous sinners and wicked sinners is whether we are trying to repent. Since you can never be sure who is repenting and who is not, perhaps you should leave the lectures for their priesthood leaders. That's what they're called to do, when necessary.

I would agree that Christ and Alma are strict; but I would also put it to you that they were merciful, compassionate, and sought to nourish the sinner back to repentance rather than cast them out. That's the example.

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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by TrueIntent »

iWriteStuff wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:14 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:11 am I saw this article on Facebook too.
Personally, I think it's mostly nonsense.
I'm guessing you don't spend a lot of time in Relief Society? :-?
Ha Ha! Yeah, relief society is all about what Sister so and so does, and what brother so and so does...we never talk scripture...just a lot of culture.

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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by TrueIntent »

Lizzy60 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 10:16 am I don't believe it will happen. I can't even consider wearing nice slacks to church without having an anxiety attack. I don't live in the MorDor, and I see people every day with tats and piercings who would most likely be uncomfortable in an LDS church, once they discovered how ingrained the Mormon Culture is here in the US. Watch Gen Conf next weekend, and tell me how many people you see with a visible tat or multiple piercings. Tell me how many men on the stand are wearing anything other than a white shirt and conservative tie. The membership of the Church is less than 50% white. How many GA's are non-white? We are so far away from the Cultural Revolution that truly we will have to experience TEOTWAWKI to effect any sort of meaningful change.
This is a good point, how does culture change, if it is directed by a leadership that reflects the culture? When are we going to call a black man from the ghetto to a position amongst the twelve apostles? There is a woman in our ward who is a convert to the church who used to be homeless. She gets so angry in meetings about missionary work or in meetings where the relief society asks for suggestions of service because no one will listen to her...we were doing a project about helping the homeless shelters in the community, and they dismissed her ideas for the ideas of the relief society president(this woman is currently in social worker now, as is the relief society president, but this woman comes with first hand knowledge because she lived it). I will never forget the sting in her voice when she pounded her fist on her chest and said, "I used to live in the homes (shelters)." We don't listen to people who have been there....and defer to people who haven't. Really, why do we do that?
Last edited by TrueIntent on March 28th, 2017, 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by Fiannan »

Quakers used to defy state churches in the early days of our nation by showing up to services of the state church naked. If our state of not being judgemental means not looking down on anyone no matter how they are dressed then why not extend that to nudity during LDS services? I know that some of the people who read fluffy articles on "never categorizing people" would make an exception here, but on what grounds?

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TrueIntent
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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by TrueIntent »

David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 1:07 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: March 28th, 2017, 12:40 pm
David13 wrote: March 28th, 2017, 11:50 am This is the flaw that comes up. The repentance part is too easily forgotten about.

I see you have pulled a good one on me, indicting me as the "dutiful brother".

Let's go instead to Alma's admonitions to Corianton. Read that section and tell me if you think I should sum that up with "ok, yeah man, I'm ok with your past, but now let's move on." (Alma 39)

Or something a little more involved. And strict?
dc
I guess my point is if you want to go to church with only fully repented sinners, you might find yourself attending a very small gathering. There are far more people in need of outreach and compassion. Even Alma had compassion on his son. Heck, Corianton didn't even get sent home from his mission.

Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go thy way, and sin no more." He didn't sit there and lecture her about her past.

At any rate, this isn't even entirely about sin. The context for my sharing this comes in the form of a personal story. My wife miscarried four times last year and had a very difficult time coping with it. What was the response of the women in her social circle, all members of the church? They essentially cast her out and now spend their Sundays "throwing shade" on her or ignoring her completely. That is why she shared this article with me, and also why she doubts there will be any change. She didn't sin; she did no wrong. She suffered and because her Mormon friends thought it a bother they cast her out.

Or try this one: my first wife was a convert to the church. She thought it meant a new life with a new accepting family. Then we moved to Utah and she was treated like the vilest of sinners because of her past (which, by way of baptism, was forgiven). The door closed on her to that new life and accepting family. She felt judged and rejected. Within a short time she left the church (and thereafter left me, too).

I'm a dude. I have thicker skin. I've never counted on the church to provide friendships, so I've never been disappointed. But the women in my life want friends who are members of the church. What they discover more often than not is that it's a catty club with cliques. Maybe you don't see it; perhaps you've never felt it. If so, lucky man you! But there is a problem with the culture of the church and it doesn't help to put on blinders and pretend there isn't.


Well, I'm well aware that all people have attitudes.
And my luck has never been to avoiding their attitudes, but to learn how and why they have those attitudes and live with them accordingly.
I have mentioned here previously that I am aware that all my life people generally have either thought of me far more good that I actually am, or far more worse.
But the important thing I have always done is never develop a grudge against anyone or the church. I recognize I'm no different from any of them.
I hang with the ones I want to hang with, and avoid the ones I don't.
Just like you, and everyone else.

Where did I say Jesus sat and lectured the prostitute? No where. So you are making false attribution against me. Tut tut.
However, are you going to deny that Alma lectured Corianton? Or say that Corianton was told by Alma "oh yeah man, going to prostitutes is ok?"
No, Alma indeed did lecture, call on the carpet, read the riot act to Corianton.

Many times we perceive things that are our own perceptions, and not reality.

One way or another, people always have an attitude toward me, and I know how to deal with it, how to confront it. Or ignore it. And that will continue to be my policy in Utah.
dc

I don't think the author was saying any of those things. No one is disagreeing with you that hooking up with prostitues is a bad thing. But the part you missed in the article is...Christ very strongly condemned the behaviors and teachings of the pharisees. In fact, it is the only group in scripture he comes out against, and rather harshly. Now, take that a step further and study the cultural teachings of the Pharisees in that day, and compare Christ's teachings and condemnations of the pharisees to Mormons, and Mormon culture....you will find that there is a huge section of the mormon church that practices religion this very same way...the similarities are eery. We should be concerned as a church. Members are becoming more and more aware of this issue. That article, last is checked, was shared over 70,000 times on social media....trust me...members are aware, and they are disgusted by it. Its those who are not aware, and can't distinguish between culture and scripture that don't see a problem.

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Re: Mormon Cultural Revolution

Post by TrueIntent »

Fiannan wrote: March 28th, 2017, 2:49 pm Quakers used to defy state churches in the early days of our nation by showing up to services of the state church naked. If our state of not being judgemental means not looking down on anyone no matter how they are dressed then why not extend that to nudity during LDS services? I know that some of the people who read fluffy articles on "never categorizing people" would make an exception here, but on what grounds?
Because sure enough, someone will try to take those naked women as wives...Don't judge the naked....don't judge the polygamist. =))

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