A new study shows that free markets don't make for free mind

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gclayjr
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A new study shows that free markets don't make for free mind

Post by gclayjr »

Mr. Greenspan gave testimony on Capitol Hill before the House Oversight Committee concerning the economic meltdown that ravaged the country. This was the takeaway:


"I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organizations, specifically banks and others, were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms."


In other words, despite all logic to the contrary, people cannot be trusted to do what is in their own best interest.

......

History proves that capitalism is the only system that can produce prosperity by fueling the engine of productivity. But when the rules of the marketplace become the values of the street, then the law of the jungle waits right around the corner.

DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE

So what defines our best interest: fostering a morally healthy society or grabbing all we can before someone else grabs it first? The answer should be obvious. But we know it isn't so.

People only do what is in their own best interest when they recognize what that best interest truly is. Objectively, we all want to live in a world built on kindness and justice. But human beings are not objective creatures, and our base impulses incline us toward self-indulgence. Only with discipline and wisdom can we harness our appetites.

America's Founding Fathers knew this all too well when they designed the legal infrastructure of our country. They recognized that the Constitution would only ensure freedom in the hands of responsible custodians and judicious practitioners. Here are just a few of their insights:

John Adams: Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Benjamin Rush: Without [religion] there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.

Noah Webster: All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.

George Washington: Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society.

James Wilson: Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants.

Benjamin Franklin: [O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

Of course, it was the study of religious philosophy that enlightened these men of wisdom, even one as irreligious as Ben Franklin. They didn't merely point to scripture; they studied it and allowed its teachings to inform their reasoning and shape their opinions.

......

Most certainly, they knew and took to heart the warnings of King Solomon when he said, Like an open, unwalled city is a man who cannot restrain his desire. It's not hard to imagine what these wise men would say about a modern world in which everything has become acceptable in the name of tolerance, where accountability is repudiated in the name of charity, and where traditional boundaries of virtue are torn down in pursuit of utopian egalitarianism. They knew that moral anarchy would be the inevitable outcome of unbridled freedom.

Even if we recognize that economic pragmatism must govern the marketplace, we've also seen what happens when the impulses of human avarice are given free rein. True freedom can only survive if we remember that there are some things worth more than money, and that our own best interest can never be served at the expense of others

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0317/g ... omics.php3

Regards,

George Clay

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harakim
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Re: A new study shows that free markets don't make for free mind

Post by harakim »

"In other words, despite all logic to the contrary, people cannot be trusted to do what is in their own best interest."

What?


If anything, the collapse proved that some people do what is in their best interest at all costs. What do they care if the company goes under?

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gclayjr
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Re: A new study shows that free markets don't make for free mind

Post by gclayjr »

harakim,

Not everybody. The point of the article is that you need a foundation of a morally healthy society for people to choose to to do what is in their best interest. A free country and a free society cannot succeed without it.

The Judeo Christian beliefs are one such source. There are others such as Hinduism and Buddhism, that might provide such a background (I do not know that much about those religions and philosophies) . From your ID, you might find it offensive to be told that Islam does not seem to provide such a basis.

You can look at the world around us to see the problem. Democracies have been tried, in part of Palestine, Egypt, Iraq and Afghanistan with disastrous results. There does not seem to be any recent history of any majority Islamic country ( with the somewhat problematic, possible exception of Indonesia, and the increasingly problematic Turkey...which is failing by going BACK to its Islamic roots), where anything other than authoritarian government does anything other than fail miserably. Without a foundation of moral health, both individuals and societies do not choose what is in their best interest.

I am a great fan of free markets, and a libertarian leaning conservative form of government that promotes Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. However, this only works on a foundation of a generally morally healthy society.


Regards,

George Clay

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harakim
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Re: A new study shows that free markets don't make for free mind

Post by harakim »

gclayjr wrote: March 29th, 2017, 7:13 am harakim,

Not everybody. The point of the article is that you need a foundation of a morally healthy society for people to choose to to do what is in their best interest. A free country and a free society cannot succeed without it.

The Judeo Christian beliefs are one such source. There are others such as Hinduism and Buddhism, that might provide such a background (I do not know that much about those religions and philosophies) . From your ID, you might find it offensive to be told that Islam does not seem to provide such a basis.

You can look at the world around us to see the problem. Democracies have been tried, in part of Palestine, Egypt, Iraq and Afghanistan with disastrous results. There does not seem to be any recent history of any majority Islamic country ( with the somewhat problematic, possible exception of Indonesia, and the increasingly problematic Turkey...which is failing by going BACK to its Islamic roots), where anything other than authoritarian government does anything other than fail miserably. Without a foundation of moral health, both individuals and societies do not choose what is in their best interest.

I am a great fan of free markets, and a libertarian leaning conservative form of government that promotes Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. However, this only works on a foundation of a generally morally healthy society.


Regards,

George Clay
I'm still not sure what you are getting at. Are you are arguing the bankers who caused the last crisis were "morally healthy" or that making a ton of money with no repercussions is "not in their best interest".

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gclayjr
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Re: A new study shows that free markets don't make for free mind

Post by gclayjr »

harakim,

This board is full of people whose whole lives seem to be centered around ruminating over grand Jewish banker conspiracy theories. I don't know if you're one of them, but if so, I think that it is a waste of time that consumes people and greatly distorts their views on everything. As I posted in another thread. I think some of these conspiracy folks will turn a discussion about what toppings people prefer on Pizza into a Jewish banker conspiracy to co-opt the pepperoni market.

That being said, I was talking about society as a whole. In fact I had been thinking about my response to you and I thought of a better one. A lot of hard core libertarians are greatly committed to the idea that government has no business making laws against Vice. That is against illegal drugs, prostitution, gambling and for many abortion. They seem to think that these things hurt nobody except those engaged in it. While I don't agree, they are also ignoring the destruction such choices make upon those who chose them.

The problem with a managed economy is 2 fold. The first problem that all Socialist/Communist countries have is lack of timely information. They cannot truly predict what needs to be produced. What are the best uses of resources or anything. The market is too complex. (Heyak has done a lot of analysis on this. I recommend reading "The Fatal Conceit"). Therefor in trying to be "fair", Socialists, even when trying to act nobly, ruin things by making decisions without the information needed to make the right choices.

The second problem with managed economies is that they put power into the hands of those few people who are the "mangers". This gives them power. As Lord Acton famously said "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.". Therefor almost all managed economies become corrupt bureaucracies.

A free market does a lot to solve the 2 above problems. It also solves a 3rd problem. If the managers of a managed economy screw up, they screw up big and it effects everybody. In a free market, if someone screws up it effects far fewer people. Whenever, you see activists pushing for more government control, you see them pointing to those within our society who for one reason or another are not getting their "fair" share. Some of this is because of their own choices, and some (although not nearly as much as proponents of either government intervention or conspiracy theories like to think), are do to the destructive actions of others.

While "a free market" solves the above problems, it does nothing to require or even encourage people to make wise choices that are truly in their best self interest. The reason Free markets have worked as well as they have in the past both here in the US, and in some other cultures where people have developed a good moral foundation is that while not all, most people will make choices that are truly in their own best interests. And for those few who do not make "good choices", since they effect a relatively few peop0le, it has minimal effect on that free society.

This also gets to the heart of a fallacy that lot of conspiracy and and Government control freaks fall into. They blame bankers and and greedy capitalists for loaning money to governments and people so that they can make money as the governments and people waste money on wars, or other stupid shallow things. They seem to ignore the culpability of those who are actually taking that proffered money and doing those things.

So within every society, there are people who will use the free market choices to do things that are not in their best interest ... buy the services of whores, go gambling, do drugs, kill babies, persecute hated minorities or whatever. The free market does nothing to stop this behavior. If this behavior becomes the norm in society, then the free market will not work.

Regards,

George Clay

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