Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

[sandman45]

Amen and Amen.. Joseph didn't believe it was.. he knew.. he spent so much time with Moroni and knew their culture, their beliefs, their wars, their landscapes, and the clothes they wore what the houses looked like etc..

There is evidence of civilization.. just ask Smithsonian.. they are covering up most of it.
We are taught in schools that the american indians are savages and uncivilized.. false doctrine there.. there was and were multiple civilizations.. Adena were before Hopewell and there is a lot of evidences that they were the Jaredites..

Thanks, I will look up the Adena. But I don't like the continued insistence that "Joseph knew". This is absolutely false, because if it was true then the church would only teach and encourage the heartland theory, the church would not claim that the book of Mormon lands has not been revealed. How do you explain this?

It is simple; If "Joseph knew", then the church would know, we wouldn't be arguing this and BYU would be spending it's money on hopewell research, so it's clear this is false.

Joseph knew.. and the church today doesn't teach all the same things today that Joseph did then..(just read a lot of the church history from Joseph to John Taylor and compare it to now)
Because the Saints joined babylon and embraced it with open arms.. welcomed them into the valley and love it and love their religion and their science and their financial systems etc etc..

Well then, if you believe the church leaders conspired to cover up what Joseph supposedly 'Knew' and the saints joined babylon and love everything you believe they should despise, does that mean you are no longer LDS?

And if you are no longer LDS, why should it matter to you where the Lehite land is?

If you do still believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, are you willing to admit that you believe he set up a flawed system that became corrupted after only a short time? And if that's the case, then the whole 'restoration' of the Lord's true and living church was a big failure as well.


Are you really sure you want to believe something like that? It has far reaching consequences for remaining faithful to modern day prophets and prophecy...

As for me, I don't believe Joseph 'knew', I trust that as the church leaders say today, the actual location of the land of the Lehites was never revealed, so I don't have to worry about cover ups and conspiracies.

It matters to me because I believe the BOM is true and Joseph translated it. Those events happened.. those people existed.. there has to be evidence of it and I believe the Heartland model is the closest.. the previous poster has some interesting thoughts and maybe he is right about some info from both.. but If Joseph saw and talked with who he said he did.. I bet he knew.. there are many quotes and he never says middle america or south america.. anyway.


God lives and so does Christ.. I don't need to be faithful to prophets and to a church.. I need to have faith in God and Christ because they falter not.

I am LDS and I believe Joseph was a Prophet and Brigham and Taylor..Woodruff, JFS .. etc..

I never said he setup a false system or anything like that.. you are just jumping to your own conclusions because someone thinks differently than you and asks questions and it makes you angry.

There have been
Sidney Rigdon,
Judas,
George Patrick Lee,
Paul H. Dunn,
Richard L. Lyman,
John F. Boynton,
Lyman E. Johnson,
Luke S. Johnson,
William E. M'Lellin,
Thomas B. Marsh,
William Smith and Orson Hyde removed from the Quorum by vote of the church. (they were both restored later)
Orson Pratt excommunicated. (rebaptized),
William Smith,
John E. Page ,
Lyman Wight..
others who were excommunicated, lied, led others away, taught false doctrine..etc..

this link has a long list of ordinations, disfellowshipping, excommunications etc of the leadership of the church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronolog ... DS_Church)

just because I have questions and don't blindly follow whatever anyone says doesn't make me a "Non LDS" member or anti or former.. I trust in the Lord and not the Arm of Flesh.. so when man or committees or governments or schools or even apostles tell me information that they say is TRUTH I take time to pray, study, research and dig and learn and ponder... most of the time its not 100% true, and I find some groups lie and have other agendas.. yes shocker even LDS members, leaders, and 70s, apostles make mistakes, lead people astray and tell lies...

That is why you just cannot blindly trust and eat up every single word out of their mouths...

You gotta pray study and listen and you will find the truth.

and the truth will set you free..

start searching and learning the history of the church, things that were taught pre - Utah being a state and things taught post Utah being a state..and then ask questions..

Seriously the more I read and study the scriptures the more questions I have about many things. I hope one day I can have all the questions answered but you know how God answers prayers.. sometimes it just takes time.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
—
Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)

[davedan]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

Sheep
Horses
Cattle (musk ox)
Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines)
Migratory wild beasts (bison)
Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena)
Genetics = Haplogroup X
Land of Liberty
Land the Gentiles would inherit
Land of the New Jerusalem
land with seasons (climate was warmer)
City walls built with earth and timber
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances
River Sidon = Mississippi
Niagara = Neck
Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes
Head of the River = Fall-line (not source)
Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone
Clinch River Tennessee Temple
Written Language = micmac
Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box)
Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world)
Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)
Land of First Landing = Georgia
Land of Nephi = Tennessee
Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)
Land of Bountiful = Michigan
Land of Ammon = Ohio
Land of Desolation = New York
Land of many waters = Canada
Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MO



Also, a great conspiratorial coverup.

[EdGoble]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

No conspiratorial coverup by people only. Only a bunch of heartlanders willfully obscuring certain facts, which could be called a conspiracy.

Genetic dating of genes which place the arrival of Haplogroup X into America long before Adam even lived, making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago. It is a conspiracy by Rod Meldrum and friends to willfully misconstrue it and interpret it through young earth creationism to say that the dating is off, and that this halplogroup actually arrived only within the last several thousand years into the Americas. They peddle it as pseudoscience to the LDS masses. Sorry. But the only conspiracy that exists here is among the heartlanders to peddle crap to the naive people in the Church. That, my friends is called priestcraft.

[larsenb]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

No conspiratorial coverup by people only. Only a bunch of heartlanders willfully obscuring certain facts, which could be called a conspiracy.

Genetic dating of genes which place the arrival of Haplogroup X into America long before Adam even lived, making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago. It is a conspiracy by Rod Meldrum and friends to willfully misconstrue it and interpret it through young earth creationism to say that the dating is off, and that this halplogroup actually arrived only within the last several thousand years into the Americas. They peddle it as pseudoscience to the LDS masses. Sorry. But the only conspiracy that exists here is among the heartlanders to peddle crap to the naive people in the Church. That, my friends is called priestcraft.

Yup. When you really dig into many of their claims, they just don't hold much water . . . . that coupled with twisting so many passages of scripture. They're welcome to it, but my take is they are misleading a lot of people, including quite a few in my ward.

[davedan]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

No conspiratorial coverup by people only. Only a bunch of heartlanders willfully obscuring certain facts, which could be called a conspiracy.

Genetic dating of genes which place the arrival of Haplogroup X into America long before Adam even lived, making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago. It is a conspiracy by Rod Meldrum and friends to willfully misconstrue it and interpret it through young earth creationism to say that the dating is off, and that this halplogroup actually arrived only within the last several thousand years into the Americas. They peddle it as pseudoscience to the LDS masses. Sorry. But the only conspiracy that exists here is among the heartlanders to peddle crap to the naive people in the Church. That, my friends is called priestcraft.

"making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago"

Are you seriously making this argument talking about Pre-adamites and Haplogroup X being a product of Pre-adamites? If you accept this dating, you show you don't believe the Bible, how could you be convinced of the Book of Mormon.

There are several papers (one from MIT, other Nature) showing mitochondrial Eve could have lived 2000 years ago.

https://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Papers/Rohde-MRCA-two.pdf
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 02842.html

[AI2.0]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

Sheep
Horses
Cattle (musk ox)
Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines)
Migratory wild beasts (bison)
Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena)
Genetics = Haplogroup X
Land of Liberty
Land the Gentiles would inherit
Land of the New Jerusalem
land with seasons (climate was warmer)
City walls built with earth and timber
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances
River Sidon = Mississippi
Niagara = Neck
Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes
Head of the River = Fall-line (not source)
Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone
Clinch River Tennessee Temple
Written Language = micmac
Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box)
Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world)
Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)
Land of First Landing = Georgia
Land of Nephi = Tennessee
Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)
Land of Bountiful = Michigan
Land of Ammon = Ohio
Land of Desolation = New York
Land of many waters = Canada
Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MO



Also, a great conspiratorial coverup.

If all your are doing is trusting the group pushing this, if you aren't doing your own homework on this, you will one day regret it. For every piece of 'evidence' you cite, there are problems, some are completely misleading, some are errors, some are based on things which evidence shows are most likely hoaxes and some, there is not enough evidence to make a determination. Some of the evidence is not exclusive to the Heartland model, but is also evidence which can be supportive for other Book of Mormon models. Don't put your trust in the claims of people who have made a career, a business out of selling the 'Heartland model'--with it's websites, DVD's, books and tours, to an unsuspecting LDS public.

Put your faith in God; face the simple truth that he has chosen to withhold the exact location of where events in the Book of Mormon took place, for a wise purpose. Maybe it was simply to try our faith, but for whatever reason, listen to our Church leaders and don't get sucked into lies such as a phony 'conspiratorial coverup' which can very well lead to doubts and a loss of faith. This is a dangerous road some have chosen to take, IMO.

[Ezra]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

Sheep
Horses
Cattle (musk ox)
Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines)
Migratory wild beasts (bison)
Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena)
Genetics = Haplogroup X
Land of Liberty
Land the Gentiles would inherit
Land of the New Jerusalem
land with seasons (climate was warmer)
City walls built with earth and timber
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances
River Sidon = Mississippi
Niagara = Neck
Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes
Head of the River = Fall-line (not source)
Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone
Clinch River Tennessee Temple
Written Language = micmac
Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box)
Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world)
Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)
Land of First Landing = Georgia
Land of Nephi = Tennessee
Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)
Land of Bountiful = Michigan
Land of Ammon = Ohio
Land of Desolation = New York
Land of many waters = Canada
Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MO



Also, a great conspiratorial coverup.

If all your are doing is trusting the group pushing this, if you aren't doing your own homework on this, you will one day regret it. For every piece of 'evidence' you cite, there are problems, some are completely misleading, some are errors, some are based on things which evidence shows are most likely hoaxes and some, there is not enough evidence to make a determination. Some of the evidence is not exclusive to the Heartland model, but is also evidence which can be supportive for other Book of Mormon models. Don't put your trust in the claims of people who have made a career, a business out of selling the 'Heartland model'--with it's websites, DVD's, books and tours, to an unsuspecting LDS public.

Put your faith in God; face the simple truth that he has chosen to withhold the exact location of where events in the Book of Mormon took place, for a wise purpose. Maybe it was simply to try our faith, but for whatever reason, listen to our Church leaders and don't get sucked into lies such as a phony 'conspiratorial coverup' which can very well lead to doubts and a loss of faith. This is a dangerous road some have chosen to take, IMO.

Regret it??? Why??

It really doesn't change anything being north or Central America.

For me it's about copper armor, Breast plates, swords. Which there is plenty of evidence around the Great Lake area of that.

But it might be that I just don't know Central American history and evidence as well.

[larsenb]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

No conspiratorial coverup by people only. Only a bunch of heartlanders willfully obscuring certain facts, which could be called a conspiracy.

Genetic dating of genes which place the arrival of Haplogroup X into America long before Adam even lived, making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago. It is a conspiracy by Rod Meldrum and friends to willfully misconstrue it and interpret it through young earth creationism to say that the dating is off, and that this halplogroup actually arrived only within the last several thousand years into the Americas. They peddle it as pseudoscience to the LDS masses. Sorry. But the only conspiracy that exists here is among the heartlanders to peddle crap to the naive people in the Church. That, my friends is called priestcraft.

"making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago"

Are you seriously making this argument talking about Pre-adamites and Haplogroup X being a product of Pre-adamites? If you accept this dating, you show you don't believe the Bible, how could you be convinced of the Book of Mormon.

There are several papers (one from MIT, other Nature) showing mitochondrial Eve could have lived 2000 years ago.

https://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Papers/Rohde-MRCA-two.pdf
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 02842.html

My Mozzila blocked your first link. The 2nd, to Nature, requires a login and a payment. Do you have this article. If so, I would like to request a copy from you.

Otherwise, the abstract really doesn't say what you are claiming for it, that I can see. It does say:

"In particular, the MRCA of all present-day humans lived just a few thousand years ago in these models. Moreover, among all individuals living more than just a few thousand years earlier than the MRCA, each present-day human has exactly the same set of genealogical ancestors.

Where MRCA stands for 'most recent common ancestor'. Notice is says among all individuals living more than just a few thousand years earlier than the MRCA . . . . . .

[larsenb]

. . . . Regret it??? Why??

It really doesn't change anything being north or Central America.

For me it's about copper armor, Breast plates, swords. Which there is plenty of evidence around the Great Lake area of that.

But it might be that I just don't know Central American history and evidence as well.

You can get up to speed on the 'Central American . . . evidence' by reading the myriad articles located at Book of Mormon Archaeology Foundation at: http://bmaf.org/ . BMAF has become a division of Book of Mormon Central, located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/

[EdGoble]

"making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago"

Are you seriously making this argument talking about Pre-adamites and Haplogroup X being a product of Pre-adamites? If you accept this dating, you show you don't believe the Bible, how could you be convinced of the Book of Mormon.

There are several papers (one from MIT, other Nature) showing mitochondrial Eve could have lived 2000 years ago.

https://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Papers/Rohde-MRCA-two.pdf
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 02842.html

MIT huh. Sounds like a real winner. The fact that a young-earth creationist attended MIT that misinterprets facts that 99.9999999999999999% of geneticists would disagree with him on is not an indicator of good science. Just because someone attends graduate school and can get a good grade by answering all the questions right on the test according to the requirements, yet who bleeds his fundamental religious beliefs into his science once he graduates, doesn't make a good scientist out of him. A good scientist is someone that lets his science speak irrespective of his personal beliefs in his religion. Strongly-held religious beliefs will never be a good substitute for science. Literal interpretation of scripture will never force the facts of science to be what they are not.

[davedan]

"The fact that a young-earth creationist attended MIT that misinterprets facts that 99.9999999999999999% of geneticists would disagree with him on is not an indicator of good science."

I can't argue with someone about the Book of Mormon who doesnt even believe in the Bible.

[DesertWonderer]

That'a a lot of spaghetti you're throwing against the wall. Let's see if we can make some sense of it

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

Sheep
Horses pre-columbian horses have found in mesoamerica
Cattle (musk ox) ??? how do you come to the conclusion that musk ox that died out long before the BoM were the cattle to which they referred?
Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines) Grapes are mentioned 3x in the BoM and never as growing there specifically.
Migratory wild beasts (bison) there are many other migratory beasts besides bison in the americans.
Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena) not that advanced. they had no system of writting wich is required for both nephites and lamanites.
Genetics = Haplogroup X the Church disagrees with this genetic evidence.
Land of Liberty ONLY the continental US is a land of liberty? No. the entirety of N and S American is a land of liberty and inheritance for Joseph.
Land the Gentiles would inherit Gentiles have enherited the entirety of N and S Am. The hemisphere is full of and controlled by those of gentile blood lines.
Land of the New Jerusalem JS said N and S Am is zion.
land with seasons (climate was warmer) Learn geography, there are places w more than 1 season other than the US. btw snow or is never mentioned in the BoM.
City walls built with earth and timber Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.
River Sidon = Mississippi No; it flows the wrong direction.
Niagara = Neck no evidence to back this up.
Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.
Head of the River = Fall-line (not source) sorry I don't understand this reference
Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone proved a fake
Clinch River Tennessee Temple I'd like to know more about this but regardless do you think only the nephites had the gosple? Christ had many sheep.
Written Language = micmac a made u language in the 1600 by a French priest to try to teach the Indians to write.
Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box) Would like to know more but it was a common prictice amoung anchient people all over the world.
Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world) no it doesn't. It only says to call it by that name not that it was that place.
Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)
Land of First Landing = GeorgiaNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Nephi = TennesseeNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)No; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Bountiful = MichiganNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Ammon = OhioNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Desolation = New YorkNo; it flows the wrong directionNY is / was anything but desolate
Land of many waters = CanadaNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MONo; it flows the wrong direction.



Also, a great conspiratorial coverup. Oh brother.

Look. I don't know where the BoM lands were. I suspect I know (it's where my daughter is currently serving her mission) but if I'm wrong it's no big deal b/c the church has never come out and said where it took place. It's really not that important. Why is it though that the Heartland crowd pushes it like it some sort of religious tenet? Not to mention that their evidence is really bad. They always come across as sounding like these splinter groups (tent city, tin foil hat, energy healing) that have missed the mark. It's just my perception whatever that's worth.

[EdGoble]

"The fact that a young-earth creationist attended MIT that misinterprets facts that 99.9999999999999999% of geneticists would disagree with him on is not an indicator of good science."

I can't argue with someone about the Book of Mormon who doesnt even believe in the Bible.

Give me a break.

[davedan]

Horses- pre-columbian horses have found in mesoamerica
(Native Horses are found in NA, but depends on scientific dating)

Cattle- (musk ox) ??? how do you come to the conclusion
(Bootherium bombifrons is native to NA, but depends on scientific dating)

Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines) Grapes are mentioned 3x in the BoM and never as growing there specifically.
(Nephites practiced Law of Moses and Lords Supper)

Migratory wild beasts (bison) there are many other migratory beasts besides bison in the americans.
(no migratory beasts in MesoAmerica)

Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena) not that advanced. they had no system of writting wich is required for both nephites and lamanites.
(Adena and Hopewell were very advanced and many artifacts with Runes. Phoenician, Hebrew writing have been found. Micmac is still a preserved written language today )

Genetics = Haplogroup X the Church disagrees with this genetic evidence.
(this depends on scientific dating. Great Lakes Indians have X, Druze in Northern Israel have X. the debate is when the migration occured which goes to scientific dating)

Land of Liberty ONLY the continental US is a land of liberty? No. the entirety of N and S American is a land of liberty and inheritance for Joseph.
(Constitutional Government began in US. Adam-ondi-Ahman and New Jerusalem are in US)


Land the Gentiles would inherit Gentiles have enherited the entirety of N and S Am. The hemisphere is full of and controlled by those of gentile blood lines.
(South America was settled by catholics and so did not come forth out of their spiritual captivity like in NA)

Land of the New Jerusalem JS said N and S Am is zion.
(Jackson County will be the "center-place")

land with seasons (climate was warmer) Learn geography, there are places w more than 1 season other than the US. btw snow or is never mentioned in the BoM.
(North America had warmer climate in past)

City walls built with earth and timber Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.

River Sidon = Mississippi No; it flows the wrong direction.
(This depends on what is the "Head" of the river).

Niagara = Neck no evidence to back this up.
Google: a Native American word for “at the neck” [3]

Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.

Head of the River = Fall-line (not source) sorry I don't understand this reference
(sorry the point is not clear, but it impacts the direction of the River Sidon)

Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone proved a fake
Clinch River Tennessee Temple I'd like to know more about this but regardless do you think only the nephites had the gosple? Christ had many sheep.
(these are NOT proven fakes)

Written Language = micmac a made u language in the 1600 by a French priest to try to teach the Indians to write.
(was not made up by the priest)

Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box) Would like to know more but it was a common prictice amoung anchient people all over the world.
(okay)

Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world) no it doesn't. It only says to call it by that name not that it was that place.
(not insignificant because God names few places)

Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)

Land of First Landing = GeorgiaNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Nephi = TennesseeNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)No; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Bountiful = MichiganNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Ammon = OhioNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Desolation = New YorkNo; it flows the wrong directionNY is / was anything but desolate
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river, you were not there when Mulekites arrived to see it)

Land of many waters = CanadaNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MONo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Also, a great conspiratorial coverup. Oh brother.
(its called Manifest Destiny that covered up origins of Native Americans)

[DesertWonderer]

This doesn't prove one or the other but is very interesting. It demonstrates that migrations came from meso-america to America. Which is what, I think, the BoM describes when it mentions migrations of people from BoM lands to lands far to the North never to be heard of again.

http://westerndigs.org/earliest-use-of- ... mmigrants/

Some strange pottery found at an ancient settlement in southeastern Utah contains the oldest known traces of chocolate in the United States, an anthropologist says.

The site dates back to the 8th century — 200 years earlier than the only other known evidence of the food, found at Chaco Canyon, the famous ceremonial and trade center of the Ancestral Puebloans.


The residents of the Utah settlement, known as Alkali Ridge, were also Pueblo ancestors, but the chocolate found in so many of their jars, pitchers, and bowls — as well as the pottery itself — suggests that they might not have been alone.


This 1,200-year-old bowl contained traces of cacao, a new study says.
(Courtesy of the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, Harvard University)
Dr. Dorothy Washburn, a researcher at the University of Pennsylvania’s Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, studied the residues in 18 vessels first unearthed at one of the settlement’s sites in the 1930s. She and her team — including her husband, a chemist for Bristol-Meyers Squibb — found that 13 of the artifacts contained traces of cacao, also known as cocoa.

The tell was a chemical called theobromine, a compound like caffeine that cacao has in abundance. The only other plant in North America that produces theobromine is Ilex vomitoria, a toxic holly that some Midwestern cultures used to induce ritual vomiting.

(Read more about it: “Ancient Americans Pounded Vomit-Causing ‘Black Drink’ 6 Times Stronger Than Coffee”)

But the holly, Washburn said, is only found in the Southeastern United States, whereas cacao was a known staple of life and trade in Mesoamerica.

“The only conclusion can be that it’s cacao,” she said.

Since the cacao tree, Theobroma cacao, is a tropical plant not found within thousands of miles of Utah or Chaco, how it arrived in the American Southwest is something of a mystery — and a controversy.

The conventional view is that cacao, prized as a natural stimulant, came via trade routes that the ancestral Pueblo shared with Mesoamerican cultures, which valued chocolate as an important food and ceremonial drink.

That may explain cacao’s presence at a trade hub like Chaco, but Washburn says for it to be found so prevalently in a remote, early settlement like that at Alkali Ridge, there’s only one explanation:


Seeds in the fruit of the cacao tree were fermented and ground to make a stimulating drink.


“We’re arguing that people were moving from Mesoamerican areas up north into the Southwest. It was not just traders and isolated instances of trade,” she said.

The chocolate is only the latest evidence of a gradual but deeply influential migration from what’s now Mexico and Central America into the Southwestern United States, she said.

What’s even more persuasive than the far-flung cacao is the pottery it was found in, she added.

While local ceramics around Alkali Ridge were thick-walled and heavy, with black designs painted on white, the vessels found at one abandoned pit house, called Site 13, included many delicate orange wares of unusual shapes, painted with red patterns.

“There were these unusual dishes — they were sort of low, shallow open bowls with a non-local design system, and they were beautifully made — very thin vessel walls,” she said. “Clearly someone knew how to make those vessels and how to paint them and so forth.”

Since earlier tests of the clay had revealed them to have been made from local materials, these outliers weren’t imported, Washburn said. Instead, they must’ve been made by someone from another culture, with different potting and painting traditions.

“It was so different from the local ceramic, and it was so unique, and so prevalent at this particular, one site — not found at very many other sites around it — somebody who knew how to do this must’ve come up and made this.”

The migration theory fits with the historical environment of the time, she added, because Mesoamerica — much like Alkali Ridge — was undergoing a great upheaval in the 8th century.


Teotihuacan, the giant metropolis in central Mexico, had collapsed less than a century before Site 13 was settled, sending waves of emigrants in all directions.

“And by 900, many of the Mayan city states had also collapsed,” she added. “The results for North America was that people were moving all over.

“The bigger picture is, you can’t understand what’s happening in the [American] Southwest without understanding what’s happening in the areas to the south.”

Washburn acknowledged that her conclusions are controversial. Critics question how chocolate could appear to be so prevalent at Alkali Ridge, while there are no oral, epigraphic or any other references to its use — let alone any physical evidence of cacao plants themselves, like seed pods.

Perhaps more important, many archaeologists hew to the opinion that the great developments of ancient America — like the sophisticated complex at Chaco Canyon — were largely the handiwork of indigenous, uniquely North American cultures.

The prospect that the ancestral Pueblo were heavily, and directly, shaped by Mesoamerican migrants has meant that “there are a lot of archaeologists that aren’t happy,” Washburn said.

“This is causing the crumbling, or it is taking out the foundation, of their argument that the development of these high cultures … was an indigenous phenomenon. It. Is. Not. It is not.”

The research appears in the Journal of Archaeological Science.

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Sources:

• “Cacao consumption during the 8th century at Alkali Ridge, southeastern Utah,” Journal of Archaeological Science, No. 40, 2013

[Theo H. Gardener]

This is an interesting comparison of the two Book of Mormon Lands theories and the pros and cons for each one.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... ories.html

Both the Mesoamerican and the heartland Book of Mormon geography theories have their strong points and, shall we say, areas that need further research. Here are a few random strengths and weaknesses from both theories.




1. Promised land
"This is the promised land. The prophecies and promises indicate that the United States has to be at least some part of the Book of Mormon, because practically every one of these promises in it can only really be applied as the United States," Rod L. Meldrum said. "It is a nation 'above all other nations,' and a 'mighty' Gentile nation. Well, what other nation are they talking about here? I don't think that they are talking about Guatemala here."

2. Joseph Smith statements
Joseph Smith made several statements throughout his life that indicate that he believed Book of Mormon events took place in North America.

3. DNA
Journal studies of Native American DNA shows that the rare X DNA haplogroup is found in the parts of North America where the heartland theorists say the Book of Mormon took place. Although geneticists' dating of the DNA does not correlate with Book of Mormon times, the X DNA haplogroup has its origins in the Middle East, not Asia.

4. Archaeology
North America has sites that date to the right time for the Book of Mormon and that match descriptions of fortifications.

5. Hill Cumorah
The Gold Plates were buried in the New York Hill Cumorah.

Heartland weaknesses

A. River Sidon
"The Book of Mormon makes it abundantly clear that the river Sidon runs from the south to the north," Sorenson said. And in Alma 2, Alma and his army wade across the river to fight the invading Lamanites The river Sidon in the heartland model is considered to be the Mississippi River.

B. Hills
There are hills in the land of Nephi. Sorenson said it is always described as "up" in relation to everything else. "Where is the 'up' (in the heartland model)? Is it the hills of Kentucky?" Sorenson said.

1 comment on this story
C. A West Sea
The Narrow Neck of Land has a west side on a West Sea. The border by the West Sea is where Nephi and Lehi and their party landed. If the West Sea is one of the Great Lakes, Sorenson wonders how Lehi sailed to it from Asia.

D. Climate
"Where is the snow in Zarahemla?" Sorenson said. "Where is the snow in the Book of Mormon? Where is the cold in the Book of Mormon? Not a single word that indicates anything other than warmth and even tropical heat."

E. Lack of Civilization
The evidence of the type of high civilization described in the Book of Mormon is less prevalent than in Mesoamerica.

I think the weaknesses of the Heartland in terms of Geography, climate and lack of civilization are pretty hard to ignore, however, I think it's biggest strength is that we generally consider the United States of America as the 'promised land' and not MesoAmerica.

But, what if we could find a solution which supports BOTH theories and ends the contention? I think this theory just might do that. I like this man's theory of the Heartland 'as hinterland' to a MesoAmerica main Nephite civilization which actually reconciles the two theories very nicely. I shared the link on another thread, but here it is again;

The article is called 'Heartland as Hinterland; A Look at Book of Mormon Geography'

http://ldsmag.com/article-1-13128/

Maybe this is a theory which could end the squabbles between the two camps, since the actual Book of Mormon land has not been revealed and the church does not take a stand for or against either model, would be a good compromise.

The Gadianton Robbers are the Chinese coming across the Pacific. The Mayans all (97%) have Mongolian flecks. None of them have the Apex Bump of the Covenant (Shem) on the Back of their Heads like the Blood type A Native Americans. I have carefully inspected the pictures of the ruins at the Temple at Chechen Itza. There was a dirt Mound there previously. Jacob's namesake would not have used stone because they did not use it in Saquarra/Memphis on the step pyramid using the the mud brick corner stone method the Builders of Stone rejected that was never finished. Stone isn't going to cut it once huned with metal tools. Therefore I suggest if it isn't on the Mississippi in Iowa it's probably under the Tennessee Valley possibly under the clinch river. Why else would the bury a pyramid underwater? I'm a fan of Wayne May. I enjoy seeing his work.

As for the Bloodline of the Patriarchs both Torah and Book of Mormons. The Cherokee had a very high numbers of A Blood types amongst them comparatively. Even when Simeon and Levi viciously attack an entire city and killed every remaining male while recovering from their circumcisions they only spoiled there Children. The Indians that killed off the Lehites and Mulekites in the end where those Brothers who were under the influence of Gadianton secret societies. The Bloodline survived through them however in this last generation they would have been mixing with B's.