Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

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AI2.0
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Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by AI2.0 »

This is an interesting comparison of the two Book of Mormon Lands theories and the pros and cons for each one.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... ories.html

Both the Mesoamerican and the heartland Book of Mormon geography theories have their strong points and, shall we say, areas that need further research. Here are a few random strengths and weaknesses from both theories.

Mesoamerican strengths:

1. Geographic correlation
Hundreds of different geographic descriptions in the Book of Mormon — such as two seas, a narrow neck of land, a large north-flowing river and so forth — correlate with features in Mesoamerica.

2. High level of civilization
"There is civilization in Mesoamerica, and civilization is what the Book of Mormon describes," said John L. Sorenson, author of "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon." "Civilization, meaning cities — even great cities, large masses of people, large wars, big agricultural base for the economy, temples and towers and so on."

3. Writing
"In Mesoamerica, there are at least 15 types of script, of writing," Sorenson said. "The system of writing that is typical for Mesoamerica is all of the Egyptian style. … The only thing that is different about them is the characters."

4. Archaeology
Mesoamerica has cities — large urban areas that date to the right time for the Book of Mormon.

5. Peoples
"There would have to be some remains of Jaredites, of a particular era and scope. There would have to be Nephites distinct from, separate from and opposed to Lamanites. There would have to be Mulekites. And there are, as a matter of fact, evidence for all of these — for such groups, for multiple groups, in Mesoamerica," Sorenson said.

Mesoamerican weaknesses

A. Metals
Although Sorenson said he has several hundred specimens of smelted metal from Book of Mormon time periods, he acknowledged that most archaeologists would dismiss them. Linguistic evidence, however, finds words for metal that go back to 1,000 B.C. "I see that as a problem for archaeology," Sorenson said.

B. Directions
The East Sea in the Mesoamerican model is more northeast, and the West Sea (Pacific Ocean) is southward.

C. Statements of Joseph Smith
Although there are some apparent statements from Joseph Smith that some Book of Mormon places were in Central America, there is also some dispute that he made those statements.

D. Transporting Gold Plates
The distance from Mesoamerica to the New York Hill Cumorah is thousands of miles — a long way to carry a heavy package.

Some question that the limited geographic model of Mesoamerica is big enough to contain all of the described civilizations and travels.

Heartland theory strengths

1. Promised land
"This is the promised land. The prophecies and promises indicate that the United States has to be at least some part of the Book of Mormon, because practically every one of these promises in it can only really be applied as the United States," Rod L. Meldrum said. "It is a nation 'above all other nations,' and a 'mighty' Gentile nation. Well, what other nation are they talking about here? I don't think that they are talking about Guatemala here."

2. Joseph Smith statements
Joseph Smith made several statements throughout his life that indicate that he believed Book of Mormon events took place in North America.

3. DNA
Journal studies of Native American DNA shows that the rare X DNA haplogroup is found in the parts of North America where the heartland theorists say the Book of Mormon took place. Although geneticists' dating of the DNA does not correlate with Book of Mormon times, the X DNA haplogroup has its origins in the Middle East, not Asia.

4. Archaeology
North America has sites that date to the right time for the Book of Mormon and that match descriptions of fortifications.

5. Hill Cumorah
The Gold Plates were buried in the New York Hill Cumorah.

Heartland weaknesses

A. River Sidon
"The Book of Mormon makes it abundantly clear that the river Sidon runs from the south to the north," Sorenson said. And in Alma 2, Alma and his army wade across the river to fight the invading Lamanites The river Sidon in the heartland model is considered to be the Mississippi River.

B. Hills
There are hills in the land of Nephi. Sorenson said it is always described as "up" in relation to everything else. "Where is the 'up' (in the heartland model)? Is it the hills of Kentucky?" Sorenson said.

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C. A West Sea
The Narrow Neck of Land has a west side on a West Sea. The border by the West Sea is where Nephi and Lehi and their party landed. If the West Sea is one of the Great Lakes, Sorenson wonders how Lehi sailed to it from Asia.

D. Climate
"Where is the snow in Zarahemla?" Sorenson said. "Where is the snow in the Book of Mormon? Where is the cold in the Book of Mormon? Not a single word that indicates anything other than warmth and even tropical heat."

E. Lack of Civilization
The evidence of the type of high civilization described in the Book of Mormon is less prevalent than in Mesoamerica.
I think the weaknesses of the Heartland in terms of Geography, climate and lack of civilization are pretty hard to ignore, however, I think it's biggest strength is that we generally consider the United States of America as the 'promised land' and not MesoAmerica.

But, what if we could find a solution which supports BOTH theories and ends the contention? I think this theory just might do that. I like this man's theory of the Heartland 'as hinterland' to a MesoAmerica main Nephite civilization which actually reconciles the two theories very nicely. I shared the link on another thread, but here it is again;

The article is called 'Heartland as Hinterland; A Look at Book of Mormon Geography'

http://ldsmag.com/article-1-13128/

Maybe this is a theory which could end the squabbles between the two camps, since the actual Book of Mormon land has not been revealed and the church does not take a stand for or against either model, would be a good compromise. :)

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Robin Hood
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by Robin Hood »

Pro: Heartland model is correct.
Con: Mesoamerican model is incorrect.

brianj
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by brianj »

You missed a very big weakness of the Mesoamerican hypothesis: it's not a land of promise. The people in those countries are not blessed anywhere near as much as people in the US and Canada.
I grew up in southern California in an aviation family and I have been to Brown Field near San Diego, which is less than two miles from the Tijuana airport. I recall that every time I was in that area I was impressed at the sudden difference a thin line brought. The houses to the north were much nicer with paved roads, lush yards, and a lot of shiny cars. On the other side of that visible line were small ratty houses with nothing green outside, dirt roads, and a small number of old cars. I've walked across the border at San Ysidro several times, and there is a tremendous difference that you notice even before you get to Revolution Avenue. The people are mostly nice and mostly seem somewhat happy, but it is obvious that they don't enjoy anything near the blessings we enjoy in this promised land.

There's another weakness, but it is debatable. The Book of Mormon contains prophesies that there will never be a king over the promised land, unless they are ripe in iniquity. You can say no country in Mesoamerica has royalty so this is valid for that region, but I interpret this prophecy a bit more broadly. Five of the seven countries of Central America have had dictators take power and prevent the people from voting them out. Mexico and Columbia have also been under the thumb of dictators so Central America is bordered by two nations that have also been subject to totalitarianism. Additionally, Belize was part of the British Empire, subject to four Kings and two queens. Costa Rica was subject to the Spanish monarchy for nearly 300 years.
Two of seven countries were subject to European monarchs and the other five have been subject to dictators, along with both countries that border Central America. This directly contradicts Book of Mormon prophecy.

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AI2.0
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

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My responses in blue;
brianj wrote: March 16th, 2017, 6:16 pm You missed a very big weakness of the Mesoamerican hypothesis: it's not a land of promise. The people in those countries are not blessed anywhere near as much as people in the US and Canada.This is your own limited perception. Central America is still a land of milk and honey, overflowing with natural resources, which could make life as wealthy and prosperous as possible, if they weren't overrun by secret combinations. The presence of Secret combinations doesn't mean their land is not blessed, in fact it is evidence that it IS the land of promise, because it carries a curse as well. The Nephites and Jaredites were overrun by the same problem, it meant they were under the cursing of the land--rather than the blessings that come with this land. There is no reason to believe it is not a land of promise, in fact, to me, it's clear it is a land of promise--under Gods' judgment at this time, but maybe it's lifting as the people accept the gospel, and do not reject it.
I grew up in southern California in an aviation family and I have been to Brown Field near San Diego, which is less than two miles from the Tijuana airport. I recall that every time I was in that area I was impressed at the sudden difference a thin line brought. The houses to the north were much nicer with paved roads, lush yards, and a lot of shiny cars. On the other side of that visible line were small ratty houses with nothing green outside, dirt roads, and a small number of old cars. I've walked across the border at San Ysidro several times, and there is a tremendous difference that you notice even before you get to Revolution Avenue. The people are mostly nice and mostly seem somewhat happy, but it is obvious that they don't enjoy anything near the blessings we enjoy in this promised land. This is not a good comparison. Imagine the land with no people and no buildings/material goods which their money can buy. Then tell me there is much difference. There isn't, in fact, the southern lands are more fertile because the climate is milder. The lands of central America are a beautiful and fertile as the United States--and they've got a much better climate, go look at all the produce that is grown south of the border. The countries are gorgeous on the coastlines--the water is the most beautiful color you've ever seen. No, these countries have as much natural beauty and resources as the US. And since when did the trappings of wealth become a standard for who is and who isn't in the good graces of God? I didn't think members of the LDS church judged the righteous to be 'blessed' with material things. Just because Americans have tons more money does not mean they enjoy the blessings of God--Satan can give 'gifts' too.

There's another weakness, but it is debatable. The Book of Mormon contains prophesies that there will never be a king over the promised land, unless they are ripe in iniquity.I remember the part of never having a king, but I don't remember the part about having a king if they are ripe in iniquity--I don't think you are remembering this accurately. What I remember about being ripe in iniquity is being 'destroyed' or 'swept off'. You can say no country in Mesoamerica has royalty so this is valid for that region, but I interpret this prophecy a bit more broadly.Yes, and we can interpret our US as having a 'royalty' too--look at the Bushes, the Clintons, the Kennedys, and look at any state where family dynasties rule politics--here in utah it's the Huntsmans.Five of the seven countries of Central America have had dictators take power and prevent the people from voting them out. Mexico and Columbia have also been under the thumb of dictators so Central America is bordered by two nations that have also been subject to totalitarianism. Additionally, Belize was part of the British Empire,No, it's not. Belize has been a free nation for a couple of decades. I was just there a few months ago. They've patterned their government after the US too, but they are a very poor country. subject to four Kings and two queens. Costa Rica was subject to the Spanish monarchy for nearly 300 years.I'm not sure what your point is, the United States was subject to kings too, until we gained our independence in the Revolutionary war.
Two of seven countries were subject to European monarchs and the other five have been subject to dictators, along with both countries that border Central America. This directly contradicts Book of Mormon prophecy.Not sure why you would think this isn't the case with the US as well then. The US was under colonial rule up till 1776 when we fought for our independence.
No, I don't see how you think the information you offered makes one bit of difference as to the heartland model being the correct one. The Heartland model claims that all the US was the promised land, but the US at that time only consisted of the states in existence in 1830. Most of the continent belonged to Mexico, Spain, russia etc.--Utah didn't even become a state till the late 1800's. This fact shoots down your theory as the US was also owned by all those other countries with their Kings and Queens ruling us at one time.

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AI2.0
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by AI2.0 »

Robin Hood wrote: March 16th, 2017, 5:30 pm Pro: Heartland model is correct.
Con: Mesoamerican model is incorrect.
Thank you Robin Hood for considering the information which I posted on this thread. I took some time to put it together, as I've been reading the Book of Mormon lately, it has spurred me to think more deeply on some of these things and I've been researching some of the critics' claims against the Book of Mormon and have been thinking about evidences for the Truthfulness of this incredible book which we have been blessed to have knowledge of.

I wondered if I should even bother to share it here, but came to the decision that it was worth my time-- if it was of value to any on this forum who also think more in depth about these things.

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kittycat51
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

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My reply in Blue.

AI2.0 wrote:

A. River Sidon
"The Book of Mormon makes it abundantly clear that the river Sidon runs from the south to the north," Sorenson said. And in Alma 2, Alma and his army wade across the river to fight the invading Lamanites The river Sidon in the heartland model is considered to be the Mississippi River.
At the time of the Savior's death the whole face of the land changed for the BofM. What was it like before? Was the Mississippi River flowing south to north? It did briefly when the large earthquakes of 1811-1812 hit near New Madrid, Missouri. This is the largest series of historically recorded seismic activity recorded ever in North America. Witnesses endured over 2,000 earthquakes with three being 8.0 magnitude or stronger, that rocked the eastern half of the U.S for 5 months. It causes the Mississippi to flow backwards, entire regions were buried under 15-20 feet of sand from sand geysers. Chasms opened up in the earth, foul vapors were released and 10 new lakes formed in hours, inundating villages and towns. No other historic earthquake sequence has lasted so long, produced so many shocks, nor created such astonishing land surface phenomena. Kind of like during Christ's death? So things changed!

B. Hills
There are hills in the land of Nephi. Sorenson said it is always described as "up" in relation to everything else. "Where is the 'up' (in the heartland model)? Is it the hills of Kentucky?" Sorenson said.
Refer to above.

C. A West Sea
The Narrow Neck of Land has a west side on a West Sea. The border by the West Sea is where Nephi and Lehi and their party landed. If the West Sea is one of the Great Lakes, Sorenson wonders how Lehi sailed to it from Asia.
Remember that at the time of the Savior's Crucifixion the whole land changed...who knows what it was totally like before?

D. Climate
"Where is the snow in Zarahemla?" Sorenson said. "Where is the snow in the Book of Mormon? Where is the cold in the Book of Mormon? Not a single word that indicates anything other than warmth and even tropical heat."
Actually snow and hail are mentioned 3 times in conjunction with dreams and exhortations (1 Nephi 11:8, Mosiah 12:6, Helaman 5:12) How would they know how to explain it if they didn't experience it? Alma 46:40 states "And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land..." Around the equator really the difference between seasons is not very much.
The BofM authors wrote of a wilderness filled with wild animals that entered their lands from the north (Alma 22:31) and of wild beast that came SEASONALLY into their borders (Mosiah 18:4) Ether wrote of a great drought (dearth) that forced beast to retreat southward, providing food for the people whowere also fleeing the famine. What were these beast and what were they doing? It is clear that they were migrating seasonally, and that they were large enough to be considered "beasts" capable of providing food to a people so numerous that they had spread again over the face of the land...Buffalos are the ONLY thing that could fit this description. The lamanites were hunters and followed the course of the beasts. Buffalo's are not native of central America and did not migrate that far south.


E. Lack of Civilization
The evidence of the type of high civilization described in the Book of Mormon is less prevalent than in Mesoamerica.
I read a book written in the 1800's where it talks about the U.S. government in the early 1700's finding all sorts of evidence that the native people of the U.S. were a highly civilized people. But whereas the U.S. was in the process of "taking over the land" they did not want the average settler to know that what the government called "savages" were actually very civilized. The book talks about numerous mounds full of bones scattered all over. Most were destroyed and covered up. (If I can find the name of the book I will come back and edit; for a more current book I would suggest "The Lost Civilizations of North America"...The compelling account of the wanton destruction of an ancient history)
Dr. James Scherz, Professor of Civil Engineering at the U of Wisconsin has found astounding new evidence encoded in the Great Octagon and Great Circle structures of the Hopewell. They were built using three units of measurement that were also used in ancient Egypt, the "common foot" and finally the "royal foot" all of which can be demonstrated to have been used in the making of these structures. If the interior of the octagon is squared, the square that is formed has a base dimension of 606 feet, which is the same length as the "stade" of ancient Egypt. The angle of the Great Pyramid of Egypt from the base up the slope to the tip is 51.8 degrees, which happens to be the precise angle of the Great Octagon complex when passing aline trhough its main axis and then measuring to true north. Coincidence? Was the Hopewell (Nephite) familiar with the Egyptian measuring system?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by Robin Hood »

AI2.0 wrote: March 16th, 2017, 7:16 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 16th, 2017, 5:30 pm Pro: Heartland model is correct.
Con: Mesoamerican model is incorrect.
Thank you Robin Hood for considering the information which I posted on this thread. I took some time to put it together, as I've been reading the Book of Mormon lately, it has spurred me to think more deeply on some of these things and I've been researching some of the critics' claims against the Book of Mormon and have been thinking about evidences for the Truthfulness of this incredible book which we have been blessed to have knowledge of.

I wondered if I should even bother to share it here, but came to the decision that it was worth my time-- if it was of value to any on this forum who also think more in depth about these things.
How thoughtful of you. Nothing better than a good dollop of sarcasm first thing in the morning!

Just because YOU take time to post what YOU think is interesting material, doesn't mean that it is as interesting to ME.
The fact is, after a lot of study, I settled this question in my mind years ago.
What I didn't do is post my findings on here and then expect responders to respond only in the way that I would find satisfactory.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by ripliancum »

Heartland Weaknesses are not weaknesses

River Sidon
There is no scripture that states that the River Sidon flowed South to North. Sorenson reasoning is completely convoluted and makes not sense.

Up/Mountains
There are three major mountain ranges in New York: the Adirondack Mountains, the Catskill Mountains, and part of the Appalachian Mountains.
Mountain ranges in Tennessee Blue Ridge Mountains‎, Great Smoky Mountains‎
Mountain ranges of Missouri Ozarks‎, St. Francois Mountains‎ , U.S. Interior Highlands‎

West Sea
The Book of never states that Lehi landed on the West Sea.
The verse that people refer to is Alma 22:28. It states that the LAMANITES forefathers are on the WEST PART of the Land of Nephi. The west part of the land of Nephi is probably where Ishmael or laman and Lemuel joined the indigenous tribes of that region.
28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents (Plains Indians lived in tents meso America does not have civilizations that lived in tents); and they were spread through the wilderness on the WEST, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the WEST in the land of Nephi, in the place of THEIR (Lamanites) fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore(SOUTH SEA).


Alma 50:8 never states that the Land of Nephi borders the West Sea.
8 And the land of Nephi did run in a straight course from the east sea to the west.

Lehi most likely landed on the South Sea.
The south Sea most likely bordered the Land of Nephi, the land of Nephi's southern border. The Nephites started in the south in Land of Nephi and first Inheritance and moved North. The Lamanite first Inheritance for the lamanites on the west who lived in tents is different from Lehi's first Inheritance.

The Nephites and laminates were from the North Sea to the South Sea. Helaman 3:8

Climate

Book of Mormon has seasons Meso America does not have season except for hot and hotter.
Book of Mormon beast migrated according to the season from north to south. (Mosiah 18:4, Alma 22:31, Alma 46:40) Central and South America has no migrating land mammals. North America does have migrating land mammals the Buffalo. The Nephites mention fever during times of season. North America has the flu season.
Nephites grew grain during the season of grain. Helamin 11:13 North America is known as the bread basket of the world for its ability to grow grain during the right season.

The Jaredite followed the course of these beast during times of famine and ate their carcasses. This only makes sense in North America with the buffalo. At one time there were about 60,000,000 buffalo.

Lack of Civilization
The Hopewell stretch from the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico it was an advanced civilization who’s trade extended thousands of miles. The also occupied the Hill Cumorah area at the time the Book of Mormon took place. The Hopewell had metal tools weapons breastplates cloth and clothing all of which are mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
The ties are obvious.
Kishkumen

An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun, who succeeded his father to be chief, is mentioned in Warren’s book, Ojibwa History. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly similar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Ojibwa are located in the Great Lakes area

Onidah

The Book of Mormon in Alma 47:5 states that disaffected Lamanites gathered at a hill called Onidah
There is Native American Tribe in New York called Onieda phonetically exactly the same as Onidah
Last edited by ripliancum on March 17th, 2017, 11:21 am, edited 12 times in total.

ripliancum
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by ripliancum »

meso and South America America lacks goats, cattle, horses, migrating beast, iron swords, wheat, barley, cities sourounded with mound walls, timber used as a main building material, middle east dna, cultural/linguistic similarities to the Book of Mormon, and close proximity to Hill Cumorah

North America has all of this either through confirmed artifacts by archeologist or through early settler historical accounts.

Reformed Egyptian Four Surviving Characters
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... glyph.html

Native American Traditional use of Sacred Metal Tablets
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... se-of.html

Archeological Evidence of the West Sea Fortified Line
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... t-sea.html

Native American Hebrew like temples
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... mples.html
Book of Mormon Cloth and Fine Twined Linen
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ttons.html
Book of Mormon Swords
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... words.html
Iroquios Lamanites
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... nites.html

Buried Nephite City and BOM Elephants
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... hants.html
Nephite/Hopewell Fortifications and ruins
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tions.html

Book of Mormon goats and cattle
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... attle.html
Book of Mormon DNA Evidence X2A'J
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... e-x2a.html
Last edited by ripliancum on March 17th, 2017, 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by Robin Hood »

Thank you ripliancum.

ripliancum
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by ripliancum »

The meso american model has had its chance. Its time for lds members, FAIR and Neal A Maxwell institute to take a look at the physical evidence of the North American model.

samizdat
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by samizdat »

I see all the current theories as having some type of flaw one way or another. The Meso doesn´t really have any fatal flaw. The Heartland has several.

I have really been looking into a theory called the South American or Andean theory. I don´t really see any fatal flaws there and I even see it as slightly stronger than the Mesoamerican model.

Points to consider about the South American model:

The statement that the Nephites landed in Chile, 30 degrees south latitude.

President Hinckley calling South America a part of the land of Zion when he dedicated the Santiago Temple.

Elder Melvin J Ballard when dedicating South America for the preaching of the Gospel said the same thing.

Plants grow better in the climates where they are brought from. Only areas on the American continent where the climate is similar to that of Jerusalem, are the California coastline and the Chilean coastline.

A better north south axis than the Mesoamerican model.

Meso also has its positives, laid out by AI. Advanced civilizations and a north flowing Sidon River. The head of the river Sidon is in Manti, and that is SOUTH of Zarahemla. Also it flows outward to the sea sufficiently where the Lamanite bodies could enter the sea unimpeded. The Sidon is mentioned again in Mormon´s retreat from Zarahemla, as a Cumorah where MORMON (not Moroni) left the plates is also likewise mentioned.

If one would look at these interior maps really there are only two viable options: Mesoamerica and South America...

bom.byu.edu

samizdat
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by samizdat »

Going to that website clicking on 2d map beta shows where the BOM internal map is.

DesertWonderer
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by DesertWonderer »

samizdat wrote: March 17th, 2017, 11:29 am I see all the current theories as having some type of flaw one way or another. The Meso doesn´t really have any fatal flaw. The Heartland has several.

I have really been looking into a theory called the South American or Andean theory. I don´t really see any fatal flaws there and I even see it as slightly stronger than the Mesoamerican model.

Points to consider about the South American model:

The statement that the Nephites landed in Chile, 30 degrees south latitude.

President Hinckley calling South America a part of the land of Zion when he dedicated the Santiago Temple.

Elder Melvin J Ballard when dedicating South America for the preaching of the Gospel said the same thing.

Plants grow better in the climates where they are brought from. Only areas on the American continent where the climate is similar to that of Jerusalem, are the California coastline and the Chilean coastline.

A better north south axis than the Mesoamerican model.

Meso also has its positives, laid out by AI. Advanced civilizations and a north flowing Sidon River. The head of the river Sidon is in Manti, and that is SOUTH of Zarahemla. Also it flows outward to the sea sufficiently where the Lamanite bodies could enter the sea unimpeded. The Sidon is mentioned again in Mormon´s retreat from Zarahemla, as a Cumorah where MORMON (not Moroni) left the plates is also likewise mentioned.

If one would look at these interior maps really there are only two viable options: Mesoamerica and South America...

bom.byu.edu
Will you repost the link? The one above doesn't seem to work.

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AI2.0
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by AI2.0 »

Robin Hood wrote: March 17th, 2017, 2:59 am
AI2.0 wrote: March 16th, 2017, 7:16 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 16th, 2017, 5:30 pm Pro: Heartland model is correct.
Con: Mesoamerican model is incorrect.
Thank you Robin Hood for considering the information which I posted on this thread. I took some time to put it together, as I've been reading the Book of Mormon lately, it has spurred me to think more deeply on some of these things and I've been researching some of the critics' claims against the Book of Mormon and have been thinking about evidences for the Truthfulness of this incredible book which we have been blessed to have knowledge of.

I wondered if I should even bother to share it here, but came to the decision that it was worth my time-- if it was of value to any on this forum who also think more in depth about these things.
How thoughtful of you. Nothing better than a good dollop of sarcasm first thing in the morning!

Just because YOU take time to post what YOU think is interesting material, doesn't mean that it is as interesting to ME.
The fact is, after a lot of study, I settled this question in my mind years ago.
What I didn't do is post my findings on here and then expect responders to respond only in the way that I would find satisfactory.
If it's not interesting to you, you don't have to read or respond on this thread.

Actually, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you looked at the information and were making a statement as to your conclusion. But, from your reaction, clearly I was wrong, apparently you didn't look at it--as you said your mind was settled on this years ago. I guess you see no need to gain any more knowledge on the subject. Since that's the case, I'm not sure why you bother looking at threads that might discuss the merits of another theory besides the one you've chosen to believe.

And I will tell you; I DO consider it unsatisfactory for someone to come on a thread, not bother to read any of it, including the OP and then respond in the manner in which you did. The forum's value is in discussion, which is something you are not interested in, it seems....

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AI2.0
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

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kittycat51 wrote: March 16th, 2017, 8:02 pm My reply in Blue.

AI2.0 wrote:

A. River Sidon
"The Book of Mormon makes it abundantly clear that the river Sidon runs from the south to the north," Sorenson said. And in Alma 2, Alma and his army wade across the river to fight the invading Lamanites The river Sidon in the heartland model is considered to be the Mississippi River.
At the time of the Savior's death the whole face of the land changed for the BofM. What was it like before? Was the Mississippi River flowing south to north? It did briefly when the large earthquakes of 1811-1812 hit near New Madrid, Missouri. This is the largest series of historically recorded seismic activity recorded ever in North America. Witnesses endured over 2,000 earthquakes with three being 8.0 magnitude or stronger, that rocked the eastern half of the U.S for 5 months. It causes the Mississippi to flow backwards, entire regions were buried under 15-20 feet of sand from sand geysers. Chasms opened up in the earth, foul vapors were released and 10 new lakes formed in hours, inundating villages and towns. No other historic earthquake sequence has lasted so long, produced so many shocks, nor created such astonishing land surface phenomena. Kind of like during Christ's death? So things changed!

B. Hills
There are hills in the land of Nephi. Sorenson said it is always described as "up" in relation to everything else. "Where is the 'up' (in the heartland model)? Is it the hills of Kentucky?" Sorenson said.
Refer to above.

C. A West Sea
The Narrow Neck of Land has a west side on a West Sea. The border by the West Sea is where Nephi and Lehi and their party landed. If the West Sea is one of the Great Lakes, Sorenson wonders how Lehi sailed to it from Asia.
Remember that at the time of the Savior's Crucifixion the whole land changed...who knows what it was totally like before?

D. Climate
"Where is the snow in Zarahemla?" Sorenson said. "Where is the snow in the Book of Mormon? Where is the cold in the Book of Mormon? Not a single word that indicates anything other than warmth and even tropical heat."
Actually snow and hail are mentioned 3 times in conjunction with dreams and exhortations (1 Nephi 11:8, Mosiah 12:6, Helaman 5:12) How would they know how to explain it if they didn't experience it? Alma 46:40 states "And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land..." Around the equator really the difference between seasons is not very much.
The BofM authors wrote of a wilderness filled with wild animals that entered their lands from the north (Alma 22:31) and of wild beast that came SEASONALLY into their borders (Mosiah 18:4) Ether wrote of a great drought (dearth) that forced beast to retreat southward, providing food for the people whowere also fleeing the famine. What were these beast and what were they doing? It is clear that they were migrating seasonally, and that they were large enough to be considered "beasts" capable of providing food to a people so numerous that they had spread again over the face of the land...Buffalos are the ONLY thing that could fit this description. The lamanites were hunters and followed the course of the beasts. Buffalo's are not native of central America and did not migrate that far south.


E. Lack of Civilization
The evidence of the type of high civilization described in the Book of Mormon is less prevalent than in Mesoamerica.
I read a book written in the 1800's where it talks about the U.S. government in the early 1700's finding all sorts of evidence that the native people of the U.S. were a highly civilized people. But whereas the U.S. was in the process of "taking over the land" they did not want the average settler to know that what the government called "savages" were actually very civilized. The book talks about numerous mounds full of bones scattered all over. Most were destroyed and covered up. (If I can find the name of the book I will come back and edit; for a more current book I would suggest "The Lost Civilizations of North America"...The compelling account of the wanton destruction of an ancient history)
Dr. James Scherz, Professor of Civil Engineering at the U of Wisconsin has found astounding new evidence encoded in the Great Octagon and Great Circle structures of the Hopewell. They were built using three units of measurement that were also used in ancient Egypt, the "common foot" and finally the "royal foot" all of which can be demonstrated to have been used in the making of these structures. If the interior of the octagon is squared, the square that is formed has a base dimension of 606 feet, which is the same length as the "stade" of ancient Egypt. The angle of the Great Pyramid of Egypt from the base up the slope to the tip is 51.8 degrees, which happens to be the precise angle of the Great Octagon complex when passing aline trhough its main axis and then measuring to true north. Coincidence? Was the Hopewell (Nephite) familiar with the Egyptian measuring system?

I absolutely agree that the changes to the landscape at the death of Christ could have had a profound effect on the Book of Mormon lands, in fact the record states this. I would expect that we should see this in the geological record of the land at that time.

This would be a good thing to research--can we find evidence of earthquakes, volcanic activity etc. that was so extensive and violent that it caused cities to be buried by earth and fall into the sea? The book of Mormon lands (where ever they are) should show this for about 33 AD.

As for the river Sidon, I have heard that about it changing course, but it was not permanent, so it's more an anomaly, not a characteristic. That's not evidence to support the text, IMO.

Your comments about snow and hail aren't compelling; Nephi knew about snow--he was from Jerusalem and I've been in Jerusalem when it was snowing, so I know it snows there. I also know that it snows in the upper regions of the Andes. Also, hail is not an uncommon thing, the climate in the southern areas is more mild, but that doesn't mean they don't ever see hail.

As for fevers, I'm pretty sure the Book of Mormon is speaking of fevers like malaria, not flu. My understanding is that the indians had no resistence to many of the white settlers' illnesses, so it would seem that influenza was not known among them pre-columbus. And, if the BofM is talking about malarial type fevers, then this supports BOTH theories, it doesn't discount either one, so this is a non-issue.

"Beasts' does not mean large animal. It usually means mammal. If you are reading it as large mammal, then you are interjecting your own perception on the text. And, there's no reason to read that 'beasts' means buffalo or bison, since there's nothing to make this assumption on.

I'm not going to argue on civilization, I'll just say that the Olmec, the Mayan had incredible civilizations that coincide with Book of Mormon times. There isn't a lot of evidence for the Hopewell, partly because it may have been destroyed, but in the west, that's not as likely, we just don't have evidence of incredible civilizations in the west that would fit the Book of Mormon descriptions.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

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samizdat wrote: March 17th, 2017, 11:29 am I see all the current theories as having some type of flaw one way or another. The Meso doesn´t really have any fatal flaw. The Heartland has several.

I have really been looking into a theory called the South American or Andean theory. I don´t really see any fatal flaws there and I even see it as slightly stronger than the Mesoamerican model.

Points to consider about the South American model:

The statement that the Nephites landed in Chile, 30 degrees south latitude.

President Hinckley calling South America a part of the land of Zion when he dedicated the Santiago Temple.

Elder Melvin J Ballard when dedicating South America for the preaching of the Gospel said the same thing.

Plants grow better in the climates where they are brought from. Only areas on the American continent where the climate is similar to that of Jerusalem, are the California coastline and the Chilean coastline.

A better north south axis than the Mesoamerican model.

Meso also has its positives, laid out by AI. Advanced civilizations and a north flowing Sidon River. The head of the river Sidon is in Manti, and that is SOUTH of Zarahemla. Also it flows outward to the sea sufficiently where the Lamanite bodies could enter the sea unimpeded. The Sidon is mentioned again in Mormon´s retreat from Zarahemla, as a Cumorah where MORMON (not Moroni) left the plates is also likewise mentioned.

If one would look at these interior maps really there are only two viable options: Mesoamerica and South America...

bom.byu.edu
Your post is intriguing, I'm going to look that up. Thanks.

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AI2.0
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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by AI2.0 »

ripliancum wrote: March 17th, 2017, 10:24 am The meso american model has had its chance. Its time for lds members, FAIR and Neal A Maxwell institute to take a look at the physical evidence of the North American model.
I have looked at it, and I found some of it to be compelling, but the problem is that the promoters of the Heartland theory have mixed a lot of stuff in that is false--for example, there are a lot of fake artifacts that have been used to promote this theory. Frauds that were proven to be fakes over a 100 years ago. That taints it and makes it hard to trust the promoters.

Are you also critical that our church leadership are ignoring Heartland as well? The church uses a lot of MesoAmerican art for depicting Book of Mormon scenes--just pick up an Ensign...

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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

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Elder L Tom Perry liked the Heartland model. As for the MesoAmerican art for BofM, that's what everybody grew up believing so that is what's been done. There are some artists who are pulling away from this theory though. Joseph knew. What about Zelph's mound? There is a marker in Adam-ondi-Ahman that Joseph stated was a Nephite altar. Did you know there are 45 correlations between the Hopewell and the Nephites? (no coincidence in my mind)

Here is also something to think about. Many times in the BofM it talks about building with wood, not stone. The grand stone structures in Central America are not mentioned in the BofM. I like Hugh Nibley's quote from his book, "An Approach to the Book of Mormon" he admonishes: "Blinded by the gold of the Pharaohs and the mighty ruins of Babylon, Book of Mormon students have declared themselves not interested in the drab and commonplace remains of our lowly Indians. But in all the Book of Mormon we look in vain for any thing that promises majestic ruins." What were these stone structures in MesoAmerica? Temples? I think not. Nephites built temples after the manner of Solomon's temple. Hugh Nibley also quoted in the Ensign, September 1872 "Ancient Temples: What do they Signify?" "One thing that leads us to suspect that most of the great powerhouses whose traces still remain were never anything more than pompous imitations or replicas is their sheer magnificence. The archaeologist finds virtually nothing of the remains of the primitive Christian church until the fourth century, because the true church was not interested in buildings and deliberately avoided the acquisition of lands and edifices that might bind it and its interests to this world.

The Book of Mormon is a history of a related primitive church, and one may well ask what kind of remains the Nephites would leave us from their more virtuous days. A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica."


(There were 5 great cities burned at the time of Christ's death. You can't burn stone)

I think we can debate this issue until the cows come home. Book of Mormon is true regardless. I know where I have my belief of geography; others have something different. It's ok. Someday we will know for sure.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by sandman45 »

Robin Hood wrote: March 16th, 2017, 5:30 pm Pro: Heartland model is correct.
Con: Mesoamerican model is incorrect.
Amen and Amen.. Joseph didn't believe it was.. he knew.. he spent so much time with Moroni and knew their culture, their beliefs, their wars, their landscapes, and the clothes they wore what the houses looked like etc..

There is evidence of civilization.. just ask Smithsonian.. they are covering up most of it.
We are taught in schools that the american indians are savages and uncivilized.. false doctrine there.. there was and were multiple civilizations.. Adena were before Hopewell and there is a lot of evidences that they were the Jaredites..

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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by sandman45 »

kittycat51 wrote: March 17th, 2017, 2:42 pm Elder L Tom Perry liked the Heartland model. As for the MesoAmerican art for BofM, that's what everybody grew up believing so that is what's been done. There are some artists who are pulling away from this theory though. Joseph knew. What about Zelph's mound? There is a marker in Adam-ondi-Ahman that Joseph stated was a Nephite altar. Did you know there are 45 correlations between the Hopewell and the Nephites? (no coincidence in my mind)

Here is also something to think about. Many times in the BofM it talks about building with wood, not stone. The grand stone structures in Central America are not mentioned in the BofM. I like Hugh Nibley's quote from his book, "An Approach to the Book of Mormon" he admonishes: "Blinded by the gold of the Pharaohs and the mighty ruins of Babylon, Book of Mormon students have declared themselves not interested in the drab and commonplace remains of our lowly Indians. But in all the Book of Mormon we look in vain for any thing that promises majestic ruins." What were these stone structures in MesoAmerica? Temples? I think not. Nephites built temples after the manner of Solomon's temple. Hugh Nibley also quoted in the Ensign, September 1872 "Ancient Temples: What do they Signify?" "One thing that leads us to suspect that most of the great powerhouses whose traces still remain were never anything more than pompous imitations or replicas is their sheer magnificence. The archaeologist finds virtually nothing of the remains of the primitive Christian church until the fourth century, because the true church was not interested in buildings and deliberately avoided the acquisition of lands and edifices that might bind it and its interests to this world.

The Book of Mormon is a history of a related primitive church, and one may well ask what kind of remains the Nephites would leave us from their more virtuous days. A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica."


(There were 5 great cities burned at the time of Christ's death. You can't burn stone)

I think we can debate this issue until the cows come home. Book of Mormon is true regardless. I know where I have my belief of geography; others have something different. It's ok. Someday we will know for sure.
excellent points! Love the Hugh Nibley quotes!

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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by larsenb »

sandman45 wrote: March 17th, 2017, 2:52 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 16th, 2017, 5:30 pm Pro: Heartland model is correct.
Con: Mesoamerican model is incorrect.
Amen and Amen.. Joseph didn't believe it was.. he knew.. he spent so much time with Moroni and knew their culture, their beliefs, their wars, their landscapes, and the clothes they wore what the houses looked like etc.. . . . .
Sorry Sandman. The statements in issues of the 1842 Times and Seasons discussing what Lloyd Stephens, et al., found in Mesoamerica and the surmises that these were the likely locations for the Land of Zarahemla, etc., were written by Joseph Smith.

John Lund did an exhaustive study showing this. I've seen no real rebuttal of his work. Do you have one?? I'd like to see it.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by ripliancum »

Sorry Sandman. The statements in issues of the 1842 Times and Seasons discussing what Lloyd Stephens, et al., found in Mesoamerica and the surmises that these were the likely locations for the Land of Zarahemla, etc., were written by Joseph Smith.

John Lund did an exhaustive study showing this. I've seen no real rebuttal of his work. Do you have one?? I'd like to see it.
If it was written by Joseph Smith it would contradict everything we KNOW for a fact that Joseph Smith stated where the location of the Nephites were.

LETTER PENNED BY JOSEPH SMITH TO EMMA DURRING ZION’S CAMP MARCH WHICH TRAVELED FROM EASTERN OHIO THROUGH ILLINOIS TO MISOURI. JUNE 4, 1834.

“The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)

JOSEPH SMITH’S LETTER TO MR. JOHN WENTWORTH MARCH 1842
The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Saviour [Savior] made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection, that he planted the gospel here in all its fulness [fullness], and richness, and power, and blessing; that they had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists; the same order, the same priesthood, the same ordinances, gifts, powers, and blessing, as was enjoyed on the eastern continent, that the people were cut off in consequence of their transgressions… “(History of the Church 1: 301)
Last edited by ripliancum on March 18th, 2017, 5:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by Robin Hood »

AI2.0 wrote: March 17th, 2017, 12:56 pm

And I will tell you; I DO consider it unsatisfactory .......
I'm sure you'll get over it.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

Post by AI2.0 »

Robin Hood wrote: March 18th, 2017, 1:49 am
AI2.0 wrote: March 17th, 2017, 12:56 pm

And I will tell you; I DO consider it unsatisfactory .......
I'm sure you'll get over it.
You have added nothing but trolling to my thread, why don't you go find someone else to heckle.

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