Pros and Cons of Heartland vs. MesoAmerica Theories

[sandman45]

Pro: Heartland model is correct.
Con: Mesoamerican model is incorrect.

Amen and Amen.. Joseph didn't believe it was.. he knew.. he spent so much time with Moroni and knew their culture, their beliefs, their wars, their landscapes, and the clothes they wore what the houses looked like etc..

There is evidence of civilization.. just ask Smithsonian.. they are covering up most of it.
We are taught in schools that the american indians are savages and uncivilized.. false doctrine there.. there was and were multiple civilizations.. Adena were before Hopewell and there is a lot of evidences that they were the Jaredites..

Thanks, I will look up the Adena. But I don't like the continued insistence that "Joseph knew". This is absolutely false, because if it was true then the church would only teach and encourage the heartland theory, the church would not claim that the book of Mormon lands has not been revealed. How do you explain this?

It is simple; If "Joseph knew", then the church would know, we wouldn't be arguing this and BYU would be spending it's money on hopewell research, so it's clear this is false.

Joseph knew.. and the church today doesn't teach all the same things today that Joseph did then..(just read a lot of the church history from Joseph to John Taylor and compare it to now)
Because the Saints joined babylon and embraced it with open arms.. welcomed them into the valley and love it and love their religion and their science and their financial systems etc etc..

[larsenb]

Pro: Heartland model is correct.
Con: Mesoamerican model is incorrect.

Amen and Amen.. Joseph didn't believe it was.. he knew.. he spent so much time with Moroni and knew their culture, their beliefs, their wars, their landscapes, and the clothes they wore what the houses looked like etc.. . . . .

Sorry Sandman. The statements in issues of the 1842 Times and Seasons discussing what Lloyd Stephens, et al., found in Mesoamerica and the surmises that these were the likely locations for the Land of Zarahemla, etc., were written by Joseph Smith.

John Lund did an exhaustive study showing this. I've seen no real rebuttal of his work. Do you have one?? I'd like to see it.

Sorry Joseph didn't write that

Sorry, but Lund basically proves that he did.

[EdGoble]

Sorry Joseph didn't write that

Sorry, but Lund basically proves that he did.

I don't comment much on Book of Mormon Geography stuff anymore. I wrote a couple of books on it that never went anywhere, and the books are just ignored basically, and I pretty-much lost interest.

I just decided to put in my two cents here. It seems that we have incessant denials that continue from the North American/Heartland/New Yorkian camp. I have to side here with larsenb. There is ample evidence now that Joseph wrote it.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... raphy.html

The wordprint analysis also says he did, as well as other evidences. Matt Roper presented this at FAIR way back in 2010, and so this has been 7 years that Heartlanders continue to dispute these findings. You can continue to dispute these things, and are welcome to your opinion. It doesn't change the fact that this evidence is what it is.

I believe that the Book of Mormon land southward is in Mesoamerica.

However, Joseph identified Quirigua as his site for Zarahemla in these articles, but no Mesoamericanist would side with that (I don't either). They would only side with the general idea that Joseph was placing the Book of Mormon land southward in Mesoamerica. And so, Mesoamericanists would never say that Joseph was making these observations based on revelatory information.

Furthermore, there is a statement in the Levi Hancock journal with a direct quote from Joseph Smith stating that the area of Illinois was the Land of Desolation, which if there is anything to it, also drives the narrow neck of land into Mexico, perhaps to Tehuantepec, being the northernmost neck that is plausible. No Mesoamericanist would believe that this statement is revelatory, and would set it aside, especially because it implies, if taken seriously, that Desolation extended up into the North American area, not just into Northern Mexico, because they are hell-bent on having only a extremely limited Geography, leaving out anything in the United States as Book of Mormon lands. North American theorists are worse as far as their lack of rationality goes, and are hell-bent on putting Zarahemla and the rest of the Nephite nation and Narrow neck within the confines of the current borders of the United States, for no rational reason. And North American theorists do nothing but cast the Hancock statement aside also as not reliable or not revelatory, yet that is hypocritical because they are supposedly basing what they believe on Joseph Smith, and treat this as unreliable. I have the direct quotes from Rod Meldrum where I confronted him on this point, where he was trying to explain it away. Oh brother. So we might as well set it ALL aside, because every last statement is likely to be unreliable.

Therefore, only entirely new revelation separate from what Joseph Smith believed, or what anyone else ever believed can really do anything for us to settle this controversy, and that won't happen till the Lord is ready, perhaps after the sifting of people in the Google apostasy. No further evidence will be given, in my opinion, until people are ready to accept unconditionally the truth we already have in faith, and until all the faithless have either repented of that and decided to have faith, or until they all leave or are cut off. What is happening right now is the cleansing of the corruption from the vineyard, the pruning, so to speak. And until that is done, and the church is cleansed of this faithlessness and corruption in the membership, no new information will be given.

Therefore, if anyone wants to come to any kind of conclusion at this moment, it doesn't do to base it on what Joseph Smith believed, in case there was any potential shards of glimmer of light in his belief. Both Mesoamericanists and North American theorists should give up on trying to rely on Joseph Smith or any other statement anybody else has ever made. As John Sorenson has established long ago, all we have to rely on is the text of the Book of Mormon. But even that is dependent on our own personal INTERPRETATION of scripture, where the scripture is not clear, but its ALL WE HAVE. Therefore, if you desire to have any basis in having any chance of hope at coming to a conclusion on Book of Mormon Geography, lay aside anything anybody ever said on it, and rely on the text.

Now, I believe in an exceedingly great distance in the text between the Narrow Neck of Land and the land of Cumorah, and that desolation extended up into Illinois and further. Yet Mesoamericanists would always confront me on that. They always demand that the text requires a limited distance there, even though I say that the text means what it says when it says exceedingly. It says that the land extended up into an area of large bodies of water. They are willing to say that it means what it says below the neck, but are hell-bent on saying that it doesn't mean what it says above the neck. This is not rational. I am still a believer in the New York Cumorah. It is interesting that my position actually harmonizes not just with the Times and Seasons articles of Joseph Smith, but also Joseph Smith's statement on Desolation in the Hancock Journal. Therefore, if we go by Joseph Smith's statements, which perhaps we ought not, both the North American theory, and the Mesoamerican Cumorah theory are found wanting for differing reasons, and only a model with Cumorah in New York and Mesoamerica as the Land Southward is the one that is actually in harmony. Does this do anything for it? Probably not. But it is nevertheless the is the grand irony of relying on Joseph Smith, that NEITHER theory in the controversy is the "one," but rather a combination of elements from both that end up being "it."

But my writings on this controversy are continually ignored by both camps, when both camps are equally wrong about different aspects of the puzzle, not only on Joseph Smith, but also on elements of interpretation of the text.

It will only be when both camps cast aside their respective lack of belief about different things, and cast aside the pieces that don't fit, and bring together things that actually do fit together from both sides, and see how they harmonize that the truth, or what is likely to be true rather, will actually shine through. Both sides have truth, but both sides have pieces that are false too. And so, that is the dilemma. And this is where the issue stands. It is not until both sides rediscover these facts that they will make progress. Some have declared the issue over, and have declared that their side has won, such as on this site: http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com, saying "Book of Mormon wars (are over)". Neither side has won, and neither will so long as either side clings to anything that is false.

But, as they say, life is too short, and I don't have a lot of interest anymore in this subject. I know that for some people, it is one of the first principles, practically, of the gospel they believe in, or so it seems sometimes. But for me, its just a curiosity, and can't take on the importance to me that it used to when I was younger and dwelling too much on things that don't truly matter.

[AI2.0]

Pro: Heartland model is correct.
Con: Mesoamerican model is incorrect.

Amen and Amen.. Joseph didn't believe it was.. he knew.. he spent so much time with Moroni and knew their culture, their beliefs, their wars, their landscapes, and the clothes they wore what the houses looked like etc..

There is evidence of civilization.. just ask Smithsonian.. they are covering up most of it.
We are taught in schools that the american indians are savages and uncivilized.. false doctrine there.. there was and were multiple civilizations.. Adena were before Hopewell and there is a lot of evidences that they were the Jaredites..

Thanks, I will look up the Adena. But I don't like the continued insistence that "Joseph knew". This is absolutely false, because if it was true then the church would only teach and encourage the heartland theory, the church would not claim that the book of Mormon lands has not been revealed. How do you explain this?

It is simple; If "Joseph knew", then the church would know, we wouldn't be arguing this and BYU would be spending it's money on hopewell research, so it's clear this is false.

Joseph knew.. and the church today doesn't teach all the same things today that Joseph did then..(just read a lot of the church history from Joseph to John Taylor and compare it to now)
Because the Saints joined babylon and embraced it with open arms.. welcomed them into the valley and love it and love their religion and their science and their financial systems etc etc..

Well then, if you believe the church leaders conspired to cover up what Joseph supposedly 'Knew' and the saints joined babylon and love everything you believe they should despise, does that mean you are no longer LDS?

And if you are no longer LDS, why should it matter to you where the Lehite land is?

If you do still believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, are you willing to admit that you believe he set up a flawed system that became corrupted after only a short time? And if that's the case, then the whole 'restoration' of the Lord's true and living church was a big failure as well.


Are you really sure you want to believe something like that? It has far reaching consequences for remaining faithful to modern day prophets and prophecy...

As for me, I don't believe Joseph 'knew', I trust that as the church leaders say today, the actual location of the land of the Lehites was never revealed, so I don't have to worry about cover ups and conspiracies.

[AI2.0]

Sorry Joseph didn't write that

Sorry, but Lund basically proves that he did.

I don't comment much on Book of Mormon Geography stuff anymore. I wrote a couple of books on it that never went anywhere, and the books are just ignored basically, and I pretty-much lost interest.

I just decided to put in my two cents here. It seems that we have incessant denials that continue from the North American/Heartland/New Yorkian camp. I have to side here with larsenb. There is ample evidence now that Joseph wrote it.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... raphy.html

The wordprint analysis also says he did, as well as other evidences. Matt Roper presented this at FAIR way back in 2010, and so this has been 7 years that Heartlanders continue to dispute these findings. You can continue to dispute these things, and are welcome to your opinion. It doesn't change the fact that this evidence is what it is.

I believe that the Book of Mormon land southward is in Mesoamerica.

However, Joseph identified Quirigua as his site for Zarahemla in these articles, but no Mesoamericanist would side with that (I don't either). They would only side with the general idea that Joseph was placing the Book of Mormon land southward in Mesoamerica. And so, Mesoamericanists would never say that Joseph was making these observations based on revelatory information.

Furthermore, there is a statement in the Levi Hancock journal with a direct quote from Joseph Smith stating that the area of Illinois was the Land of Desolation, which if there is anything to it, also drives the narrow neck of land into Mexico, perhaps to Tehuantepec, being the northernmost neck that is plausible. No Mesoamericanist would believe that this statement is revelatory, and would set it aside, especially because it implies, if taken seriously, that Desolation extended up into the North American area, not just into Northern Mexico, because they are hell-bent on having only a extremely limited Geography, leaving out anything in the United States as Book of Mormon lands. North American theorists are worse as far as their lack of rationality goes, and are hell-bent on putting Zarahemla and the rest of the Nephite nation and Narrow neck within the confines of the current borders of the United States, for no rational reason. And North American theorists do nothing but cast the Hancock statement aside also as not reliable or not revelatory, yet that is hypocritical because they are supposedly basing what they believe on Joseph Smith, and treat this as unreliable. I have the direct quotes from Rod Meldrum where I confronted him on this point, where he was trying to explain it away. Oh brother. So we might as well set it ALL aside, because every last statement is likely to be unreliable.

Therefore, only entirely new revelation separate from what Joseph Smith believed, or what anyone else ever believed can really do anything for us to settle this controversy, and that won't happen till the Lord is ready, perhaps after the sifting of people in the Google apostasy. No further evidence will be given, in my opinion, until people are ready to accept unconditionally the truth we already have in faith, and until all the faithless have either repented of that and decided to have faith, or until they all leave or are cut off. What is happening right now is the cleansing of the corruption from the vineyard, the pruning, so to speak. And until that is done, and the church is cleansed of this faithlessness and corruption in the membership, no new information will be given.

Therefore, if anyone wants to come to any kind of conclusion at this moment, it doesn't do to base it on what Joseph Smith believed, in case there was any potential shards of glimmer of light in his belief. Both Mesoamericanists and North American theorists should give up on trying to rely on Joseph Smith or any other statement anybody else has ever made. As John Sorenson has established long ago, all we have to rely on is the text of the Book of Mormon. But even that is dependent on our own personal INTERPRETATION of scripture, where the scripture is not clear, but its ALL WE HAVE. Therefore, if you desire to have any basis in having any chance of hope at coming to a conclusion on Book of Mormon Geography, lay aside anything anybody ever said on it, and rely on the text.

Now, I believe in an exceedingly great distance in the text between the Narrow Neck of Land and the land of Cumorah, and that desolation extended up into Illinois and further. Yet Mesoamericanists would always confront me on that. They always demand that the text requires a limited distance there, even though I say that the text means what it says when it says exceedingly. It says that the land extended up into an area of large bodies of water. They are willing to say that it means what it says below the neck, but are hell-bent on saying that it doesn't mean what it says above the neck. This is not rational. I am still a believer in the New York Cumorah. It is interesting that my position actually harmonizes not just with the Times and Seasons articles of Joseph Smith, but also Joseph Smith's statement on Desolation in the Hancock Journal. Therefore, if we go by Joseph Smith's statements, which perhaps we ought not, both the North American theory, and the Mesoamerican Cumorah theory are found wanting for differing reasons, and only a model with Cumorah in New York and Mesoamerica as the Land Southward is the one that is actually in harmony. Does this do anything for it? Probably not. But it is nevertheless the is the grand irony of relying on Joseph Smith, that NEITHER theory in the controversy is the "one," but rather a combination of elements from both that end up being "it."

But my writings on this controversy are continually ignored by both camps, when both camps are equally wrong about different aspects of the puzzle, not only on Joseph Smith, but also on elements of interpretation of the text.

It will only be when both camps cast aside their respective lack of belief about different things, and cast aside the pieces that don't fit, and bring together things that actually do fit together from both sides, and see how they harmonize that the truth, or what is likely to be true rather, will actually shine through. Both sides have truth, but both sides have pieces that are false too. And so, that is the dilemma. And this is where the issue stands. It is not until both sides rediscover these facts that they will make progress. Some have declared the issue over, and have declared that their side has won, such as on this site: http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com, saying "Book of Mormon wars (are over)". Neither side has won, and neither will so long as either side clings to anything that is false.

But, as they say, life is too short, and I don't have a lot of interest anymore in this subject. I know that for some people, it is one of the first principles, practically, of the gospel they believe in, or so it seems sometimes. But for me, its just a curiosity, and can't take on the importance to me that it used to when I was younger and dwelling too much on things that don't truly matter.

Thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge on this subject and you are right, having faith is what matters, not relying on someone's claims of proof for their side. It's becoming more evident how important it is to stay close to the main body of the church and not get side tracked by these things which can divide us as a people.

[larsenb]

. . . . . .
Thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge on this subject and you are right, having faith is what matters, not relying on someone's claims of proof for their side. It's becoming more evident how important it is to stay close to the main body of the church and not get side tracked by these things which can divide us as a people.

That being said ("not relying on someone's claims of proof"), John Lund did what you might describe as an exhaustive study of the words and style used in the Times and Seasons editorials in question. He used 12 different criteria, and after examining everything written by all of those who might be considered the authors, Joseph came out as the author based on every criteria, and sometimes by very wide margins.

It doesn't 'prove' the case QED, but his analysis was enough to convince me, and I'm sure most of those who would give his study a serious read. If Joseph did write the editorials, it means he seriously considered S. Mexico and N. Guatemala as possible locations for most of the Nephite/Lamanite history.

In previous threads, someone trotted out what appeared to be boiler plate objections to Lund's work, and I analyzed it and showed the objections were quite empty and off the mark.

[larsenb]

. . . .


I don't comment much on Book of Mormon Geography stuff anymore. I wrote a couple of books on it that never went anywhere, and the books are just ignored basically, and I pretty-much lost interest.

I just decided to put in my two cents here. It seems that we have incessant denials that continue from the North American/Heartland/New Yorkian camp. I have to side here with larsenb. There is ample evidence now that Joseph wrote it.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... raphy.html

The wordprint analysis also says he did, as well as other evidences. Matt Roper presented this at FAIR way back in 2010, and so this has been 7 years that Heartlanders continue to dispute these findings. You can continue to dispute these things, and are welcome to your opinion. It doesn't change the fact that this evidence is what it is.

I believe that the Book of Mormon land southward is in Mesoamerica.

However, Joseph identified Quirigua as his site for Zarahemla in these articles, but no Mesoamericanist would side with that (I don't either). They would only side with the general idea that Joseph was placing the Book of Mormon land southward in Mesoamerica. And so, Mesoamericanists would never say that Joseph was making these observations based on revelatory information. . . . .


Now, I believe in an exceedingly great distance in the text between the Narrow Neck of Land and the land of Cumorah, and that desolation extended up into Illinois and further. Yet Mesoamericanists would always confront me on that. They always demand that the text requires a limited distance there, even though I say that the text means what it says when it says exceedingly. It says that the land extended up into an area of large bodies of water. They are willing to say that it means what it says below the neck, but are hell-bent on saying that it doesn't mean what it says above the neck. This is not rational. I am still a believer in the New York Cumorah. It is interesting that my position actually harmonizes not just with the Times and Seasons articles of Joseph Smith, but also Joseph Smith's statement on Desolation in the Hancock Journal. Therefore, if we go by Joseph Smith's statements, which perhaps we ought not, both the North American theory, and the Mesoamerican Cumorah theory are found wanting for differing reasons, and only a model with Cumorah in New York and Mesoamerica as the Land Southward is the one that is actually in harmony. Does this do anything for it? Probably not. But it is nevertheless the is the grand irony of relying on Joseph Smith, that NEITHER theory in the controversy is the "one," but rather a combination of elements from both that end up being "it." . . . . . . .

But, as they say, life is too short, and I don't have a lot of interest anymore in this subject. I know that for some people, it is one of the first principles, practically, of the gospel they believe in, or so it seems sometimes. But for me, its just a curiosity, and can't take on the importance to me that it used to when I was younger and dwelling too much on things that don't truly matter.

Thanks for posting the Roper information including the DesNews link. I ran across his work a few years ago but lost track of it.

Regarding the land northward being desolate of trees, for me, its hard to envision such a large area of that part of the present U.S. without trees. But then, you're right, you don't see large bodies of water and many rivers immediately north of Tehuantepec. Mexico City was built on an island in a lake, and you do see some large inlets/bays on the coast by Teunatepec Peninsula, but otherwise . . .

And its certainly a "great distance". When you think of the travels of Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca, its hard to imagine covering that ground in not much time.

[Chris]

Great video for the heartland theory. I am a 100% heartland believer..... I do believe after the nephites were destroyed many stayed in the US and some likely went south.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnWAqV-eqa4

[francisco.colaco]

The Mik maq used Egyptian Hieroglyphs. The Mik Maq also stated that they sailed to America and were visited by a beautiful man who performed miracles.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... glyph.html

Its really sad that FAIR and the Neal A Maxwell Institute refuse to explore Native American tribes and their Book of Mormon links

The Iroquois Cherokee stated that they killed off a fair skinned Indian tribe.

Iroquois legend of a foreign people who sailed to the continent then were destroyed.

“After a long time a number of foreign people sailed from a port unknown; but unfortunately before reached their destination the winds drove them contrary ; at length their ship wrecked somewhere on the southern part of the Great Island, and many of the crews perished ; a few active persons were saved ….They immediately selected a place for residence and built a small fortification in order to provide against the attacks of furious beasts….After many years the foreign people became numerous, and extended their settlements ; but afterwards they were destroyed”
(Cusick 1838, pg. 16)


“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy… They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.””
(Swanton 1909 pg. 184)

A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“
(Stone 1838 pg. 484)

Please investigate Vineland. Vikings were in America up to the thirteenth century. The Catholic Church actually appointed a bishop to Vineland (upstate New York) in 1252, if I can recall the date correctly.

Those more recent Indian settlements, of which remains and ruins have been profusely found, are more than likely the origin of the Amerindian legends on fair skinned people.

River Sidon did flow northward. The head of the river is near Manti. Manti is southward of Zarahemla, found before the capital when the lamanites go north to penetrate the nephite lands.

[EdGoble]

Thanks for posting the Roper information including the DesNews link. I ran across his work a few years ago but lost track of it.

Regarding the land northward being desolate of trees, for me, its hard to envision such a large area of that part of the present U.S. without trees. But then, you're right, you don't see large bodies of water and many rivers immediately north of Tehuantepec. Mexico City was built on an island in a lake, and you do see some large inlets/bays on the coast by Teunatepec Peninsula, but otherwise . . .

And its certainly a "great distance". When you think of the travels of Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca, its hard to imagine covering that ground in not much time.

There are many ways to apologetically explain and engage any of these issues, but one has to be willing to enter into that before it becomes meaningful. But for the grand majority of Mesoamericanists, the distance phenomenon is such a deal breaker that they just wont have any discussion about it.

There are just a few primary issues that this boils down to:

(1) The grand majority of time, people in the Book of Mormon were in the land southward going from one place to another in a short amount of time. Nobody said that the land distances beneath the neck were long distances.
(2) The times that they did actually go into the land Northward were the only times that this exceedingly great distance was crossed, and this didn't happen all that often for the grand majority of people, with the exception of the people that engaged in trade. Even in the North, the primary places where there were some semblance of urbanization, there was relatively short distances between these areas. Archaeologically, there are only two real areas of interest: Mesoamerica, and the Illinois/Ohio Hopewell-Adena "corridor." And so, trade and movement back and forth was primarily concentrated between the Hopewell centers and Mesoamerica. The great hopewell road in Ohio, as an example, shows the Mesoamerican sacbe influence. New York was never an area of urbanization, but was simply where they fled after their attempts to defend the northern domain in Illinois and Ohio had failed. It was to have a strategic place, to be up against a natural barrier, so they did not have to defend themselves on every side, but that also they could have a source of fresh water.
(3) When people migrated to the north, they primarily stayed there, and mixed in with the tribal inhabitants and dominated them, and took over their already-existing dwellings, and mixed with them. Those already existing inhabitants had already established extensive earthworks, and these people from Mesoamerica just took over that already existing infrastructure when they mixed in with the natives.
(4) Therefore, the only real issue here is how they got back and forth when they needed to go between this Northern domain and the Southern domain. They primarily went by horse/chariot along the established trade paths, and by boat/canoe down the Ohio/Mississippi system and into the Gulf of Mexico. This extensive system of travel by land and by sea was established during the times of Hagoth. The only time that this established system of travel broke down is when people were fleeing on foot during the last war. It is true that there were movements of large armies back and forth between the Narrow Neck of Land and the Illinois/Ohio Hopewell corridor, but this is actually less of a distance than all the way into New York. Nobody ever really went into New York much except at the last. It was po-dunk to them. Only a few tribesman even lived there. There were no serious attempts to establish urbanization on any scale in New York at all. And of course, the well-established system of travel didn't exist at first while people were still exploring at first. But even during the most difficult times of this war, these people were not without their beasts of burden, their canoes and their horses and chariots. So no, there are no insuperable issues here. Its kind of like how long it took people to get to Salt Lake from the east on foot, versus when the railroad was established. Once the railroad was established, people were back and forth in much less amounts of time than at first.
(5) The trade routes were long established by the Olmecs and Adena into Louisiana. Extensive trade between the area of the Gulf of Mexico and Poverty Point and down into Mexico among the Olmec is crystal clear. And then from Poverty Point into the Adena areas. This was all long before the Nephites dominated the remnants of the Adena who mixed with the Olmec remnant. When the Jaredite/Olmecs were destroyed, the people on the fringe of their society in the North, such as the epi-Olmeca and the Zapotecs and in the south were not destroyed, but were preserved. The earliest Adena that the Nephite Hopewell later dominated were among those remnants. Poverty Point is a testament to what the Jaredite/Olmec influence into Louisiana had accomplished.
(6) The clear areas of cement dwellings are in the southern part of the Land Northward, such as Teotihuacan, etc., but that doesn't mean that other areas in the Land Northward had to have cement dwellings.
(7) Clearly the places where most of the timber was cut down was in the southern part of the Land Northward, not in the Northern part.
(8) The pony express, and the runners among the Inca are testaments about what can be accomplished with long distances when a society has well-established systems of travel in place. Surely it took bigger groups of people longer, but again, with lots of horses, chariots and boats, it still doesn't take that long.

So, no, there is no unsuperable, extremely difficult issues here that cannot be overcome with the right framing. Its just that the Mesoamericanist mindset refuses to frame the Book of Mormon societies as societies that dominated two major areas of the continent and had an extreamely well-established travel system between those two areas that was extremely efficient. In fact, it is FARMS SCHOLARS themselves that suggested that the best way that Moroni got to Cumorah in New York from Mesoamerica was by canoe, up the Mississippi, from the Gulf area, and then up through the Ohio. They themselves suggested part of this system of travel. Yet they seem to forget about these suggestions that they themselves made when they are trying to critique this type of model. And when they themselves made these suggestions, they ACKNOWLEDGED how extensive and advanced this system of trade along the waterways among the hopewell was in the Mississippi/Ohio system. When people get serious about answering questions, the meat of the objections melt away like the hoar frost. But when they insist on having mental blocks and not entertaining these types of explanations, they insist on not framing these things in such a way that these objections can be overcome. If people themselves put their mind to something, they themselves can come up with the obvious solutions that they demand from the defenders of a certain point of view. And there is a certain irony to that. Certain apostate Mormons that I know that refuse to entertain any kind of rational apologetics were very open to it when they were faithful. But now that they have apostatized, they refuse to acknowledge the rationality of the apologetics that they had once espoused, and now they over-simplify and make a irrational caricature out of Mormonism, and style the rational and reasonable apologetics as mere mind-bending "mental gymnastics." But it is nothing of the sort, but is all extremely reasonable and rational. Similarly, if Mesoamericanists truly wanted the answer to these kinds of issues, they would just put their mind to it and do it, and not make a simplistic caricature out of it. We are talking about advanced, highly complex urbanized civilizations here with two major areas of dominion that they were trying to defend, both of which they considered to be a part of the same nation. True enough that in the North, they never got to the level of urbanization that they had accomplished in the south, but that is because they were destroyed before they had the chance. And in the later Mississippian era, the people were in darkness after the destruction of the Nephites.

Mesoamericanists say that the northern areas weren't as urbanized, and didn't have the same level of technology. No, actually, they just didn't get around to establishing enough infrastructure as much as they had in the south. But the Mesoamericans that moved into these areas didn't simply forget the knowledge that they had when they were in the south. Sorry. Just because there isn't extensive evidence of writing and so forth in the North doesn't mean that the pre-Classic Maya that moved into Illinois and Ohio that dominated the Adena who became the Hopewell suddenly forgot how to write. That is absurd. The great Hopewell road, being a Mesoamerican sacbe, for example, shows the identity of the people there that came to dominate the area. They were Mesoamericans, and didn't forget their arts and crafts and scholarship. Sorry. That is just absurd to suggest that they suddenly forgot those things. Mesoamericanists that make these kinds of charges are actually making up absurd things to try to obscure the more important issues at hand. Sure, there is lack of evidence for certain things, but there are certain things that are a given just by knowing the identity of the people we are dealing with here. They were Mesoamericans, therefore they could write. It will be nice when we have direct evidence for it, but some things are just a given because of the identity of the people.

Ed

[sandman45]

Amen and Amen.. Joseph didn't believe it was.. he knew.. he spent so much time with Moroni and knew their culture, their beliefs, their wars, their landscapes, and the clothes they wore what the houses looked like etc..

There is evidence of civilization.. just ask Smithsonian.. they are covering up most of it.
We are taught in schools that the american indians are savages and uncivilized.. false doctrine there.. there was and were multiple civilizations.. Adena were before Hopewell and there is a lot of evidences that they were the Jaredites..

Thanks, I will look up the Adena. But I don't like the continued insistence that "Joseph knew". This is absolutely false, because if it was true then the church would only teach and encourage the heartland theory, the church would not claim that the book of Mormon lands has not been revealed. How do you explain this?

It is simple; If "Joseph knew", then the church would know, we wouldn't be arguing this and BYU would be spending it's money on hopewell research, so it's clear this is false.

Joseph knew.. and the church today doesn't teach all the same things today that Joseph did then..(just read a lot of the church history from Joseph to John Taylor and compare it to now)
Because the Saints joined babylon and embraced it with open arms.. welcomed them into the valley and love it and love their religion and their science and their financial systems etc etc..

Well then, if you believe the church leaders conspired to cover up what Joseph supposedly 'Knew' and the saints joined babylon and love everything you believe they should despise, does that mean you are no longer LDS?

And if you are no longer LDS, why should it matter to you where the Lehite land is?

If you do still believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, are you willing to admit that you believe he set up a flawed system that became corrupted after only a short time? And if that's the case, then the whole 'restoration' of the Lord's true and living church was a big failure as well.


Are you really sure you want to believe something like that? It has far reaching consequences for remaining faithful to modern day prophets and prophecy...

As for me, I don't believe Joseph 'knew', I trust that as the church leaders say today, the actual location of the land of the Lehites was never revealed, so I don't have to worry about cover ups and conspiracies.

It matters to me because I believe the BOM is true and Joseph translated it. Those events happened.. those people existed.. there has to be evidence of it and I believe the Heartland model is the closest.. the previous poster has some interesting thoughts and maybe he is right about some info from both.. but If Joseph saw and talked with who he said he did.. I bet he knew.. there are many quotes and he never says middle america or south america.. anyway.


God lives and so does Christ.. I don't need to be faithful to prophets and to a church.. I need to have faith in God and Christ because they falter not.

I am LDS and I believe Joseph was a Prophet and Brigham and Taylor..Woodruff, JFS .. etc..

I never said he setup a false system or anything like that.. you are just jumping to your own conclusions because someone thinks differently than you and asks questions and it makes you angry.

There have been
Sidney Rigdon,
Judas,
George Patrick Lee,
Paul H. Dunn,
Richard L. Lyman,
John F. Boynton,
Lyman E. Johnson,
Luke S. Johnson,
William E. M'Lellin,
Thomas B. Marsh,
William Smith and Orson Hyde removed from the Quorum by vote of the church. (they were both restored later)
Orson Pratt excommunicated. (rebaptized),
William Smith,
John E. Page ,
Lyman Wight..
others who were excommunicated, lied, led others away, taught false doctrine..etc..

this link has a long list of ordinations, disfellowshipping, excommunications etc of the leadership of the church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronolog ... DS_Church)

just because I have questions and don't blindly follow whatever anyone says doesn't make me a "Non LDS" member or anti or former.. I trust in the Lord and not the Arm of Flesh.. so when man or committees or governments or schools or even apostles tell me information that they say is TRUTH I take time to pray, study, research and dig and learn and ponder... most of the time its not 100% true, and I find some groups lie and have other agendas.. yes shocker even LDS members, leaders, and 70s, apostles make mistakes, lead people astray and tell lies...

That is why you just cannot blindly trust and eat up every single word out of their mouths...

You gotta pray study and listen and you will find the truth.

and the truth will set you free..

start searching and learning the history of the church, things that were taught pre - Utah being a state and things taught post Utah being a state..and then ask questions..

Seriously the more I read and study the scriptures the more questions I have about many things. I hope one day I can have all the questions answered but you know how God answers prayers.. sometimes it just takes time.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
—
Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)

[davedan]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

Sheep
Horses
Cattle (musk ox)
Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines)
Migratory wild beasts (bison)
Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena)
Genetics = Haplogroup X
Land of Liberty
Land the Gentiles would inherit
Land of the New Jerusalem
land with seasons (climate was warmer)
City walls built with earth and timber
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances
River Sidon = Mississippi
Niagara = Neck
Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes
Head of the River = Fall-line (not source)
Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone
Clinch River Tennessee Temple
Written Language = micmac
Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box)
Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world)
Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)
Land of First Landing = Georgia
Land of Nephi = Tennessee
Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)
Land of Bountiful = Michigan
Land of Ammon = Ohio
Land of Desolation = New York
Land of many waters = Canada
Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MO



Also, a great conspiratorial coverup.

[EdGoble]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

No conspiratorial coverup by people only. Only a bunch of heartlanders willfully obscuring certain facts, which could be called a conspiracy.

Genetic dating of genes which place the arrival of Haplogroup X into America long before Adam even lived, making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago. It is a conspiracy by Rod Meldrum and friends to willfully misconstrue it and interpret it through young earth creationism to say that the dating is off, and that this halplogroup actually arrived only within the last several thousand years into the Americas. They peddle it as pseudoscience to the LDS masses. Sorry. But the only conspiracy that exists here is among the heartlanders to peddle crap to the naive people in the Church. That, my friends is called priestcraft.

[larsenb]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

No conspiratorial coverup by people only. Only a bunch of heartlanders willfully obscuring certain facts, which could be called a conspiracy.

Genetic dating of genes which place the arrival of Haplogroup X into America long before Adam even lived, making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago. It is a conspiracy by Rod Meldrum and friends to willfully misconstrue it and interpret it through young earth creationism to say that the dating is off, and that this halplogroup actually arrived only within the last several thousand years into the Americas. They peddle it as pseudoscience to the LDS masses. Sorry. But the only conspiracy that exists here is among the heartlanders to peddle crap to the naive people in the Church. That, my friends is called priestcraft.

Yup. When you really dig into many of their claims, they just don't hold much water . . . . that coupled with twisting so many passages of scripture. They're welcome to it, but my take is they are misleading a lot of people, including quite a few in my ward.

[davedan]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

No conspiratorial coverup by people only. Only a bunch of heartlanders willfully obscuring certain facts, which could be called a conspiracy.

Genetic dating of genes which place the arrival of Haplogroup X into America long before Adam even lived, making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago. It is a conspiracy by Rod Meldrum and friends to willfully misconstrue it and interpret it through young earth creationism to say that the dating is off, and that this halplogroup actually arrived only within the last several thousand years into the Americas. They peddle it as pseudoscience to the LDS masses. Sorry. But the only conspiracy that exists here is among the heartlanders to peddle crap to the naive people in the Church. That, my friends is called priestcraft.

"making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago"

Are you seriously making this argument talking about Pre-adamites and Haplogroup X being a product of Pre-adamites? If you accept this dating, you show you don't believe the Bible, how could you be convinced of the Book of Mormon.

There are several papers (one from MIT, other Nature) showing mitochondrial Eve could have lived 2000 years ago.

https://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Papers/Rohde-MRCA-two.pdf
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 02842.html

[AI2.0]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

Sheep
Horses
Cattle (musk ox)
Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines)
Migratory wild beasts (bison)
Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena)
Genetics = Haplogroup X
Land of Liberty
Land the Gentiles would inherit
Land of the New Jerusalem
land with seasons (climate was warmer)
City walls built with earth and timber
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances
River Sidon = Mississippi
Niagara = Neck
Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes
Head of the River = Fall-line (not source)
Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone
Clinch River Tennessee Temple
Written Language = micmac
Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box)
Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world)
Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)
Land of First Landing = Georgia
Land of Nephi = Tennessee
Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)
Land of Bountiful = Michigan
Land of Ammon = Ohio
Land of Desolation = New York
Land of many waters = Canada
Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MO



Also, a great conspiratorial coverup.

If all your are doing is trusting the group pushing this, if you aren't doing your own homework on this, you will one day regret it. For every piece of 'evidence' you cite, there are problems, some are completely misleading, some are errors, some are based on things which evidence shows are most likely hoaxes and some, there is not enough evidence to make a determination. Some of the evidence is not exclusive to the Heartland model, but is also evidence which can be supportive for other Book of Mormon models. Don't put your trust in the claims of people who have made a career, a business out of selling the 'Heartland model'--with it's websites, DVD's, books and tours, to an unsuspecting LDS public.

Put your faith in God; face the simple truth that he has chosen to withhold the exact location of where events in the Book of Mormon took place, for a wise purpose. Maybe it was simply to try our faith, but for whatever reason, listen to our Church leaders and don't get sucked into lies such as a phony 'conspiratorial coverup' which can very well lead to doubts and a loss of faith. This is a dangerous road some have chosen to take, IMO.

[Ezra]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

Sheep
Horses
Cattle (musk ox)
Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines)
Migratory wild beasts (bison)
Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena)
Genetics = Haplogroup X
Land of Liberty
Land the Gentiles would inherit
Land of the New Jerusalem
land with seasons (climate was warmer)
City walls built with earth and timber
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances
River Sidon = Mississippi
Niagara = Neck
Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes
Head of the River = Fall-line (not source)
Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone
Clinch River Tennessee Temple
Written Language = micmac
Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box)
Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world)
Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)
Land of First Landing = Georgia
Land of Nephi = Tennessee
Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)
Land of Bountiful = Michigan
Land of Ammon = Ohio
Land of Desolation = New York
Land of many waters = Canada
Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MO



Also, a great conspiratorial coverup.

If all your are doing is trusting the group pushing this, if you aren't doing your own homework on this, you will one day regret it. For every piece of 'evidence' you cite, there are problems, some are completely misleading, some are errors, some are based on things which evidence shows are most likely hoaxes and some, there is not enough evidence to make a determination. Some of the evidence is not exclusive to the Heartland model, but is also evidence which can be supportive for other Book of Mormon models. Don't put your trust in the claims of people who have made a career, a business out of selling the 'Heartland model'--with it's websites, DVD's, books and tours, to an unsuspecting LDS public.

Put your faith in God; face the simple truth that he has chosen to withhold the exact location of where events in the Book of Mormon took place, for a wise purpose. Maybe it was simply to try our faith, but for whatever reason, listen to our Church leaders and don't get sucked into lies such as a phony 'conspiratorial coverup' which can very well lead to doubts and a loss of faith. This is a dangerous road some have chosen to take, IMO.

Regret it??? Why??

It really doesn't change anything being north or Central America.

For me it's about copper armor, Breast plates, swords. Which there is plenty of evidence around the Great Lake area of that.

But it might be that I just don't know Central American history and evidence as well.

[larsenb]

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

No conspiratorial coverup by people only. Only a bunch of heartlanders willfully obscuring certain facts, which could be called a conspiracy.

Genetic dating of genes which place the arrival of Haplogroup X into America long before Adam even lived, making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago. It is a conspiracy by Rod Meldrum and friends to willfully misconstrue it and interpret it through young earth creationism to say that the dating is off, and that this halplogroup actually arrived only within the last several thousand years into the Americas. They peddle it as pseudoscience to the LDS masses. Sorry. But the only conspiracy that exists here is among the heartlanders to peddle crap to the naive people in the Church. That, my friends is called priestcraft.

"making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago"

Are you seriously making this argument talking about Pre-adamites and Haplogroup X being a product of Pre-adamites? If you accept this dating, you show you don't believe the Bible, how could you be convinced of the Book of Mormon.

There are several papers (one from MIT, other Nature) showing mitochondrial Eve could have lived 2000 years ago.

https://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Papers/Rohde-MRCA-two.pdf
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 02842.html

My Mozzila blocked your first link. The 2nd, to Nature, requires a login and a payment. Do you have this article. If so, I would like to request a copy from you.

Otherwise, the abstract really doesn't say what you are claiming for it, that I can see. It does say:

"In particular, the MRCA of all present-day humans lived just a few thousand years ago in these models. Moreover, among all individuals living more than just a few thousand years earlier than the MRCA, each present-day human has exactly the same set of genealogical ancestors.

Where MRCA stands for 'most recent common ancestor'. Notice is says among all individuals living more than just a few thousand years earlier than the MRCA . . . . . .

[larsenb]

. . . . Regret it??? Why??

It really doesn't change anything being north or Central America.

For me it's about copper armor, Breast plates, swords. Which there is plenty of evidence around the Great Lake area of that.

But it might be that I just don't know Central American history and evidence as well.

You can get up to speed on the 'Central American . . . evidence' by reading the myriad articles located at Book of Mormon Archaeology Foundation at: http://bmaf.org/ . BMAF has become a division of Book of Mormon Central, located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/

[EdGoble]

"making its arrival into America by Pre-Adamite people's 12,000 to 36,000 years ago"

Are you seriously making this argument talking about Pre-adamites and Haplogroup X being a product of Pre-adamites? If you accept this dating, you show you don't believe the Bible, how could you be convinced of the Book of Mormon.

There are several papers (one from MIT, other Nature) showing mitochondrial Eve could have lived 2000 years ago.

https://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Papers/Rohde-MRCA-two.pdf
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 02842.html

MIT huh. Sounds like a real winner. The fact that a young-earth creationist attended MIT that misinterprets facts that 99.9999999999999999% of geneticists would disagree with him on is not an indicator of good science. Just because someone attends graduate school and can get a good grade by answering all the questions right on the test according to the requirements, yet who bleeds his fundamental religious beliefs into his science once he graduates, doesn't make a good scientist out of him. A good scientist is someone that lets his science speak irrespective of his personal beliefs in his religion. Strongly-held religious beliefs will never be a good substitute for science. Literal interpretation of scripture will never force the facts of science to be what they are not.

[davedan]

"The fact that a young-earth creationist attended MIT that misinterprets facts that 99.9999999999999999% of geneticists would disagree with him on is not an indicator of good science."

I can't argue with someone about the Book of Mormon who doesnt even believe in the Bible.

[DesertWonderer]

That'a a lot of spaghetti you're throwing against the wall. Let's see if we can make some sense of it

Heartland Model for the WIN!!!

Sheep
Horses pre-columbian horses have found in mesoamerica
Cattle (musk ox) ??? how do you come to the conclusion that musk ox that died out long before the BoM were the cattle to which they referred?
Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines) Grapes are mentioned 3x in the BoM and never as growing there specifically.
Migratory wild beasts (bison) there are many other migratory beasts besides bison in the americans.
Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena) not that advanced. they had no system of writting wich is required for both nephites and lamanites.
Genetics = Haplogroup X the Church disagrees with this genetic evidence.
Land of Liberty ONLY the continental US is a land of liberty? No. the entirety of N and S American is a land of liberty and inheritance for Joseph.
Land the Gentiles would inherit Gentiles have enherited the entirety of N and S Am. The hemisphere is full of and controlled by those of gentile blood lines.
Land of the New Jerusalem JS said N and S Am is zion.
land with seasons (climate was warmer) Learn geography, there are places w more than 1 season other than the US. btw snow or is never mentioned in the BoM.
City walls built with earth and timber Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.
River Sidon = Mississippi No; it flows the wrong direction.
Niagara = Neck no evidence to back this up.
Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.
Head of the River = Fall-line (not source) sorry I don't understand this reference
Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone proved a fake
Clinch River Tennessee Temple I'd like to know more about this but regardless do you think only the nephites had the gosple? Christ had many sheep.
Written Language = micmac a made u language in the 1600 by a French priest to try to teach the Indians to write.
Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box) Would like to know more but it was a common prictice amoung anchient people all over the world.
Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world) no it doesn't. It only says to call it by that name not that it was that place.
Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)
Land of First Landing = GeorgiaNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Nephi = TennesseeNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)No; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Bountiful = MichiganNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Ammon = OhioNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Land of Desolation = New YorkNo; it flows the wrong directionNY is / was anything but desolate
Land of many waters = CanadaNo; it flows the wrong direction.
Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MONo; it flows the wrong direction.



Also, a great conspiratorial coverup. Oh brother.

Look. I don't know where the BoM lands were. I suspect I know (it's where my daughter is currently serving her mission) but if I'm wrong it's no big deal b/c the church has never come out and said where it took place. It's really not that important. Why is it though that the Heartland crowd pushes it like it some sort of religious tenet? Not to mention that their evidence is really bad. They always come across as sounding like these splinter groups (tent city, tin foil hat, energy healing) that have missed the mark. It's just my perception whatever that's worth.

[EdGoble]

"The fact that a young-earth creationist attended MIT that misinterprets facts that 99.9999999999999999% of geneticists would disagree with him on is not an indicator of good science."

I can't argue with someone about the Book of Mormon who doesnt even believe in the Bible.

Give me a break.

[davedan]

Horses- pre-columbian horses have found in mesoamerica
(Native Horses are found in NA, but depends on scientific dating)

Cattle- (musk ox) ??? how do you come to the conclusion
(Bootherium bombifrons is native to NA, but depends on scientific dating)

Grapes (Scuppernongs, muscadines) Grapes are mentioned 3x in the BoM and never as growing there specifically.
(Nephites practiced Law of Moses and Lords Supper)

Migratory wild beasts (bison) there are many other migratory beasts besides bison in the americans.
(no migratory beasts in MesoAmerica)

Advanced Civilizations (Hopewell, Adena) not that advanced. they had no system of writting wich is required for both nephites and lamanites.
(Adena and Hopewell were very advanced and many artifacts with Runes. Phoenician, Hebrew writing have been found. Micmac is still a preserved written language today )

Genetics = Haplogroup X the Church disagrees with this genetic evidence.
(this depends on scientific dating. Great Lakes Indians have X, Druze in Northern Israel have X. the debate is when the migration occured which goes to scientific dating)

Land of Liberty ONLY the continental US is a land of liberty? No. the entirety of N and S American is a land of liberty and inheritance for Joseph.
(Constitutional Government began in US. Adam-ondi-Ahman and New Jerusalem are in US)


Land the Gentiles would inherit Gentiles have enherited the entirety of N and S Am. The hemisphere is full of and controlled by those of gentile blood lines.
(South America was settled by catholics and so did not come forth out of their spiritual captivity like in NA)

Land of the New Jerusalem JS said N and S Am is zion.
(Jackson County will be the "center-place")

land with seasons (climate was warmer) Learn geography, there are places w more than 1 season other than the US. btw snow or is never mentioned in the BoM.
(North America had warmer climate in past)

City walls built with earth and timber Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.
Hilltop forts, places of retreat, narrow entrances Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.

River Sidon = Mississippi No; it flows the wrong direction.
(This depends on what is the "Head" of the river).

Niagara = Neck no evidence to back this up.
Google: a Native American word for “at the neck” [3]

Seas that divide the land = Great Lakes Just as there are in mesoamerica and other parts of the Americas.

Head of the River = Fall-line (not source) sorry I don't understand this reference
(sorry the point is not clear, but it impacts the direction of the River Sidon)

Decalogue Stone/Bat Creek Stone proved a fake
Clinch River Tennessee Temple I'd like to know more about this but regardless do you think only the nephites had the gosple? Christ had many sheep.
(these are NOT proven fakes)

Written Language = micmac a made u language in the 1600 by a French priest to try to teach the Indians to write.
(was not made up by the priest)

Cyst Burials in Tennessee like Book of Mormon (stone box) Would like to know more but it was a common prictice amoung anchient people all over the world.
(okay)

Zarahemla identified in D&C at the head of the most important river in North America and the world (bread basket of the world) no it doesn't. It only says to call it by that name not that it was that place.
(not insignificant because God names few places)

Ohio River/Mississippi- How Limhi's people got lost and ended up in Great Lakes/New York region (Land of Desolation)

Land of First Landing = GeorgiaNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Nephi = TennesseeNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Zarahemla = Keokuk/Nauvoo Area (Head of River)No; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Bountiful = MichiganNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Ammon = OhioNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Land of Desolation = New YorkNo; it flows the wrong directionNY is / was anything but desolate
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river, you were not there when Mulekites arrived to see it)

Land of many waters = CanadaNo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Waters of Mormon = Big Spring, MONo; it flows the wrong direction.
(depends on meaning of "Head" of the river)

Also, a great conspiratorial coverup. Oh brother.
(its called Manifest Destiny that covered up origins of Native Americans)

[DesertWonderer]

This doesn't prove one or the other but is very interesting. It demonstrates that migrations came from meso-america to America. Which is what, I think, the BoM describes when it mentions migrations of people from BoM lands to lands far to the North never to be heard of again.

http://westerndigs.org/earliest-use-of- ... mmigrants/

Some strange pottery found at an ancient settlement in southeastern Utah contains the oldest known traces of chocolate in the United States, an anthropologist says.

The site dates back to the 8th century — 200 years earlier than the only other known evidence of the food, found at Chaco Canyon, the famous ceremonial and trade center of the Ancestral Puebloans.


The residents of the Utah settlement, known as Alkali Ridge, were also Pueblo ancestors, but the chocolate found in so many of their jars, pitchers, and bowls — as well as the pottery itself — suggests that they might not have been alone.


This 1,200-year-old bowl contained traces of cacao, a new study says.
(Courtesy of the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, Harvard University)
Dr. Dorothy Washburn, a researcher at the University of Pennsylvania’s Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, studied the residues in 18 vessels first unearthed at one of the settlement’s sites in the 1930s. She and her team — including her husband, a chemist for Bristol-Meyers Squibb — found that 13 of the artifacts contained traces of cacao, also known as cocoa.

The tell was a chemical called theobromine, a compound like caffeine that cacao has in abundance. The only other plant in North America that produces theobromine is Ilex vomitoria, a toxic holly that some Midwestern cultures used to induce ritual vomiting.

(Read more about it: “Ancient Americans Pounded Vomit-Causing ‘Black Drink’ 6 Times Stronger Than Coffee”)

But the holly, Washburn said, is only found in the Southeastern United States, whereas cacao was a known staple of life and trade in Mesoamerica.

“The only conclusion can be that it’s cacao,” she said.

Since the cacao tree, Theobroma cacao, is a tropical plant not found within thousands of miles of Utah or Chaco, how it arrived in the American Southwest is something of a mystery — and a controversy.

The conventional view is that cacao, prized as a natural stimulant, came via trade routes that the ancestral Pueblo shared with Mesoamerican cultures, which valued chocolate as an important food and ceremonial drink.

That may explain cacao’s presence at a trade hub like Chaco, but Washburn says for it to be found so prevalently in a remote, early settlement like that at Alkali Ridge, there’s only one explanation:


Seeds in the fruit of the cacao tree were fermented and ground to make a stimulating drink.


“We’re arguing that people were moving from Mesoamerican areas up north into the Southwest. It was not just traders and isolated instances of trade,” she said.

The chocolate is only the latest evidence of a gradual but deeply influential migration from what’s now Mexico and Central America into the Southwestern United States, she said.

What’s even more persuasive than the far-flung cacao is the pottery it was found in, she added.

While local ceramics around Alkali Ridge were thick-walled and heavy, with black designs painted on white, the vessels found at one abandoned pit house, called Site 13, included many delicate orange wares of unusual shapes, painted with red patterns.

“There were these unusual dishes — they were sort of low, shallow open bowls with a non-local design system, and they were beautifully made — very thin vessel walls,” she said. “Clearly someone knew how to make those vessels and how to paint them and so forth.”

Since earlier tests of the clay had revealed them to have been made from local materials, these outliers weren’t imported, Washburn said. Instead, they must’ve been made by someone from another culture, with different potting and painting traditions.

“It was so different from the local ceramic, and it was so unique, and so prevalent at this particular, one site — not found at very many other sites around it — somebody who knew how to do this must’ve come up and made this.”

The migration theory fits with the historical environment of the time, she added, because Mesoamerica — much like Alkali Ridge — was undergoing a great upheaval in the 8th century.


Teotihuacan, the giant metropolis in central Mexico, had collapsed less than a century before Site 13 was settled, sending waves of emigrants in all directions.

“And by 900, many of the Mayan city states had also collapsed,” she added. “The results for North America was that people were moving all over.

“The bigger picture is, you can’t understand what’s happening in the [American] Southwest without understanding what’s happening in the areas to the south.”

Washburn acknowledged that her conclusions are controversial. Critics question how chocolate could appear to be so prevalent at Alkali Ridge, while there are no oral, epigraphic or any other references to its use — let alone any physical evidence of cacao plants themselves, like seed pods.

Perhaps more important, many archaeologists hew to the opinion that the great developments of ancient America — like the sophisticated complex at Chaco Canyon — were largely the handiwork of indigenous, uniquely North American cultures.

The prospect that the ancestral Pueblo were heavily, and directly, shaped by Mesoamerican migrants has meant that “there are a lot of archaeologists that aren’t happy,” Washburn said.

“This is causing the crumbling, or it is taking out the foundation, of their argument that the development of these high cultures … was an indigenous phenomenon. It. Is. Not. It is not.”

The research appears in the Journal of Archaeological Science.

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Sources:

• “Cacao consumption during the 8th century at Alkali Ridge, southeastern Utah,” Journal of Archaeological Science, No. 40, 2013