I agree with Ezra to a large extent in principle when it comes to non-violence. Where I disagree with him is his judgement of this individual missionary. It is not our duty to call out individuals who may or may not be acting on direction of the Lord. We should err on the side of charity, and let the All Knowing be the judge.Older/wiser? wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 1:07 pm Thanks Smallfarm a wise assessment , of course Ezra would defend his family , no need to make personal attacks, each situation of aggression requires a different danger assessment. As one who has been attacked the natural instinct is to fight back,as I did, most would yet Ezra was just pointing to the high road that the Savior is always pointing us to. Listening to the Spirit will counsel , flee, fight ,there is no one way to handle every different situations as. Joseph at times hid, at times fled, and at times marshalled the people to fight.
LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
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Joseph Smith obviously didn't feel it wrong to resist violence--they even smuggled a handgun into Carthage jail, and I think he took down two of the assassins with it, if I remember the story right. Probably would have hit a few more if he had a decent weapon, but most of the barrels misfired. He, Hyrum, and John Taylor all resisted that night.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
Read d&c 98 for the guidelines god has defined for self defense and war. If it makes you feel bad for those who "listen" to the lord for guidance. I find that I feel sorry for you.shadow wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 9:12 amI feel bad for your wife is someone ever tried to rape her. You'd probably let it happen. In fact, you're such a swell guy you'd probably run down to Arby's and grab him some lunch so you can keep him around after he's finished to discuss the gospel. And while you're out you'd probably stop by the county office to pay twice what your property tax bill is, just because you're that good. If you think you can be "chosen" by applying the same principle equally as you did to this missionary then you're an idiot. By pointing a gun at the missionary the missionary's life was threatened. Which is worse, being murdered or raped? Murder is worse. I feel bad for your wife. She has nobody to protect her if needed. But at least she has a "chosen" husband.Ezra wrote: ↑March 17th, 2017, 11:11 pm
You must have missed my reply. I already explained this.
Doing nothing is following the same old wore out pattern of fighting and contention.
Not doing the normal human reaction is the doing something.
2 wrong will never make a right. Why do you keep insisting that fighting is good?
I will ask again. How does this fit in what the elder did?
D&c 121
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
How did that missionary do in using his priesthood in accordance with what it takes to be chosen?
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
My gut tells me he didn't act by direction of the lord. Watching the video makes my heart sad. And I'm not one who dislikes self defense.SmallFarm wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 2:04 pmI agree with Ezra to a large extent in principle when it comes to non-violence. Where I disagree with him is his judgement of this individual missionary. It is not our duty to call out individuals who may or may not be acting on direction of the Lord. We should err on the side of charity, and let the All Knowing be the judge.Older/wiser? wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 1:07 pm Thanks Smallfarm a wise assessment , of course Ezra would defend his family , no need to make personal attacks, each situation of aggression requires a different danger assessment. As one who has been attacked the natural instinct is to fight back,as I did, most would yet Ezra was just pointing to the high road that the Savior is always pointing us to. Listening to the Spirit will counsel , flee, fight ,there is no one way to handle every different situations as. Joseph at times hid, at times fled, and at times marshalled the people to fight.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
I'm a black belt. Read d&c 98 for my opinion on self defense. Keep in mind that in order to be a Zion people that we will already be living in a way in which we are a celestial people.freedomforall wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 1:03 amIn martial arts one is taught how to take down someone holding a gun at them. When done properly the gun is extracted from the hands of an attacker before they are able to think to pull the trigger. Also, several strikes can be executed that are geared to disable the attacker.Ezra wrote: ↑March 17th, 2017, 11:20 pmD&c 98 explains very well what God justify in self defense and in war you know I quote it all the time.freedomforall wrote: ↑March 17th, 2017, 11:27 amI was merely wondering...when does God ever have to have the Holy Ghost move upon him?Ezra wrote: ↑March 17th, 2017, 9:00 am D&c 121. 40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
Was this the case with what happened in that situation?
And ffa where is the part about anger in that scripture ??
I can see God reproving with sharpness. When moved by the Holy Spirit. But that is not anger: that's love. And that requires a plan thoughtfulness and selflessness in order to do correctly. Anger doesn't fit.
Was Ammon wrong for defending himself?
Alma 20
20 And he stretched forth his hand to slay Ammon. But Ammon withstood his blows, and also smote his arm that he could not use it.
21 Now when the king saw that Ammon could slay him, he began to plead with Ammon that he would spare his life.
22 But Ammon raised his sword, and said unto him: Behold, I will smite thee except thou wilt grant unto me that my brethren may be cast out of prison.
How did God become God? By listening to the Holy Spirit.
I knew a few LDS martial arts instructors. Do you consider them evil for learning how to defend themselves? Do you consider the 2060 strippling warriors as evil for learning how to wield a sword and killing their enemies? Was Moroni evil when he used a sword to kill kingmen?
Take notice of all the people in the Book of Mormon that learned fighting skills used for preserving life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
The scripture says to turn the other cheek if the other person is smiting us, not using a sword, a gun or knife, etc.
President Benson told us that when liberty is lost, only blood, human blood can bring it back. Can God use a bunch of pacifists to save the Constitution? Or will it take men who have learned how to fight?
I don't remember where I heard or read that the first to go to Zion will be those who refuse to kill their brothers or neighbors.
It seems with all Gods laws. There are higher ones that we could live.
Used to be an eye for an eye. Now it's love thy neighbor.
What's the highest law?
Since we know we cannot be commanded in all things And have a reward it's not good enough to just love thy neighbor. We have to be anxiously engaged in a good cause above and beyond that.
We know The meek will inherit the kingdom of God. The humble. I find myself leaning more and more to nonviolent. And planning how to make that happen.
I prepared for war. And now I'm preparing for peace and bringing peace.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
Is it just me, or do some people always want argue about what common sense would dictate? This Elder WAS engaged in a good cause, he possibly saved his life and the life of his companion. Is it just me, or do most of you think to yourself, " He's not really going to use that gun pointed in my face, why I bet he is the Elders Quorum Pres in his branch and home teaching was not 100%.
Self-defense is as justifiable where war is concerned as where one man seeks to take the life of another. . . . Righteous men are entitled, expected, and obligated to defend themselves; they must engage in battle when there is no other way to preserve their rights and freedoms and to protect their families, homes, land, and the truths of salvation which they have espoused (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 826).
Self-defense is as justifiable where war is concerned as where one man seeks to take the life of another. . . . Righteous men are entitled, expected, and obligated to defend themselves; they must engage in battle when there is no other way to preserve their rights and freedoms and to protect their families, homes, land, and the truths of salvation which they have espoused (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 826).
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
+ 1freedomforall wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 1:03 amIn martial arts one is taught how to take down someone holding a gun at them. When done properly the gun is extracted from the hands of an attacker before they are able to think to pull the trigger. Also, several strikes can be executed that are geared to disable the attacker.Ezra wrote: ↑March 17th, 2017, 11:20 pmD&c 98 explains very well what God justify in self defense and in war you know I quote it all the time.freedomforall wrote: ↑March 17th, 2017, 11:27 amI was merely wondering...when does God ever have to have the Holy Ghost move upon him?Ezra wrote: ↑March 17th, 2017, 9:00 am D&c 121. 40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
Was this the case with what happened in that situation?
And ffa where is the part about anger in that scripture ??
I can see God reproving with sharpness. When moved by the Holy Spirit. But that is not anger: that's love. And that requires a plan thoughtfulness and selflessness in order to do correctly. Anger doesn't fit.
Was Ammon wrong for defending himself?
Alma 20
20 And he stretched forth his hand to slay Ammon. But Ammon withstood his blows, and also smote his arm that he could not use it.
21 Now when the king saw that Ammon could slay him, he began to plead with Ammon that he would spare his life.
22 But Ammon raised his sword, and said unto him: Behold, I will smite thee except thou wilt grant unto me that my brethren may be cast out of prison.
How did God become God? By listening to the Holy Spirit.
I knew a few LDS martial arts instructors. Do you consider them evil for learning how to defend themselves? Do you consider the 2060 strippling warriors as evil for learning how to wield a sword and killing their enemies? Was Moroni evil when he used a sword to kill kingmen?
Take notice of all the people in the Book of Mormon that learned fighting skills used for preserving life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
The scripture says to turn the other cheek if the other person is smiting us, not using a sword, a gun or knife, etc.
President Benson told us that when liberty is lost, only blood, human blood can bring it back. Can God use a bunch of pacifists to save the Constitution? Or will it take men who have learned how to fight?
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
The article in the OP brings out this one point that must be considered and weighed out:
“They come up on a motorcycle, they get off. The one guy is the getaway guy and the other guy is the armed robber and they will shoot you…they will shoot you,” said Acosta.
So it isn't if they will shoot, rather, it is they will shoot. I think the missionary did a great job. What's the difference, getting shot by people intent on killing you no matter what, or fighting even if the gun goes off and takes a life in the process? As far as I am concerned, the missionary saved two lives.
The idiots on the bike were apparently seeking to target missionaries or anyone else that appeared to be weak or easy targets. Now the missionaries have to hope those turkeys never show up again, which could happen. But let's hope and pray the attackers will think twice in trying a second time.
I wonder if the church will start to issue bullet proof vests for all missionaries from now on. :-ss
“They come up on a motorcycle, they get off. The one guy is the getaway guy and the other guy is the armed robber and they will shoot you…they will shoot you,” said Acosta.
So it isn't if they will shoot, rather, it is they will shoot. I think the missionary did a great job. What's the difference, getting shot by people intent on killing you no matter what, or fighting even if the gun goes off and takes a life in the process? As far as I am concerned, the missionary saved two lives.
The idiots on the bike were apparently seeking to target missionaries or anyone else that appeared to be weak or easy targets. Now the missionaries have to hope those turkeys never show up again, which could happen. But let's hope and pray the attackers will think twice in trying a second time.
I wonder if the church will start to issue bullet proof vests for all missionaries from now on. :-ss
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
Wow mark. That seems an awfully low and judgmental remark. Seems that the respect that I have for you is unfounded. I thought that you were A better person then that.Mark wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 9:40 amshadow wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 9:12 amI feel bad for your wife is someone ever tried to rape her. You'd probably let it happen. In fact, you're such a swell guy you'd probably run down to Arby's and grab him some lunch so you can keep him around after he's finished to discuss the gospel. And while you're out you'd probably stop by the county office to pay twice what your property tax bill is, just because you're that good. If you think you can be "chosen" by applying the same principle equally as you did to this missionary then you're an idiot. By pointing a gun at the missionary the missionary's life was threatened. Which is worse, being murdered or raped? Murder is worse. I feel bad for your wife. She has nobody to protect her if needed. But at least she has a "chosen" husband.Ezra wrote: ↑March 17th, 2017, 11:11 pm
You must have missed my reply. I already explained this.
Doing nothing is following the same old wore out pattern of fighting and contention.
Not doing the normal human reaction is the doing something.
2 wrong will never make a right. Why do you keep insisting that fighting is good?
I will ask again. How does this fit in what the elder did?
D&c 121
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
How did that missionary do in using his priesthood in accordance with what it takes to be chosen?
No actually she has an emasculated husband who won't defend himself or his loved ones when they are preyed upon by evil and conspiring criminals. Welcome to the snowflake generation. :ymsick: Maybe this scripture in Deuteronomy might have application?
" He that is wounded in the stones, or has his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
You have always seemed to me from your posts to be a really good humble follower of Christ.
Why do you feel the need to try to look down your nose at me?
Remember you are nothing. So am I. And read d&c 98 on my opinion of self defense since your opinion is of based.
Is it wrong for me to expect more from you?
Last edited by Ezra on March 19th, 2017, 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
That would be cool.freedomforall wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 10:44 pm The article in the OP brings out this one point that must be considered and weighed out:
“They come up on a motorcycle, they get off. The one guy is the getaway guy and the other guy is the armed robber and they will shoot you…they will shoot you,” said Acosta.
So it isn't if they will shoot, rather, it is they will shoot. I think the missionary did a great job. What's the difference, getting shot by people intent on killing you no matter what, or fighting even if the gun goes off and takes a life in the process? As far as I am concerned, the missionary saved two lives.
The idiots on the bike were apparently seeking to target missionaries or anyone else that appeared to be weak or easy targets. Now the missionaries have to hope those turkeys never show up again, which could happen. But let's hope and pray the attackers will think twice in trying a second time.
I wonder if the church will start to issue bullet proof vests for all missionaries from now on. :-ss
i bet if the church offered bullet proof vests for being baptized they would get a bunch of new converts.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
ummm, possibly paid actors?? .....ummm, maybe not.
but right after video started at 1:00, felt a bit weird, kinda impressed by the view, video camera setting/location is unusually good, as if it had anticipation-effect so on.
:-B
but right after video started at 1:00, felt a bit weird, kinda impressed by the view, video camera setting/location is unusually good, as if it had anticipation-effect so on.
:-B
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
That's not your gut that's your ego. You don't know the missionary so how can you judge him. X(Ezra wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 9:44 pmMy gut tells me he didn't act by direction of the lord. Watching the video makes my heart sad. And I'm not one who dislikes self defense.SmallFarm wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 2:04 pmI agree with Ezra to a large extent in principle when it comes to non-violence. Where I disagree with him is his judgement of this individual missionary. It is not our duty to call out individuals who may or may not be acting on direction of the Lord. We should err on the side of charity, and let the All Knowing be the judge.Older/wiser? wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 1:07 pm Thanks Smallfarm a wise assessment , of course Ezra would defend his family , no need to make personal attacks, each situation of aggression requires a different danger assessment. As one who has been attacked the natural instinct is to fight back,as I did, most would yet Ezra was just pointing to the high road that the Savior is always pointing us to. Listening to the Spirit will counsel , flee, fight ,there is no one way to handle every different situations as. Joseph at times hid, at times fled, and at times marshalled the people to fight.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
Ezra wrote: ↑March 19th, 2017, 1:06 amWow mark. That seems an awfully low and judgmental remark. Seems that the respect that I have for you is unfounded. I thought that you were A better person then that.Mark wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 9:40 amshadow wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 9:12 amI feel bad for your wife is someone ever tried to rape her. You'd probably let it happen. In fact, you're such a swell guy you'd probably run down to Arby's and grab him some lunch so you can keep him around after he's finished to discuss the gospel. And while you're out you'd probably stop by the county office to pay twice what your property tax bill is, just because you're that good. If you think you can be "chosen" by applying the same principle equally as you did to this missionary then you're an idiot. By pointing a gun at the missionary the missionary's life was threatened. Which is worse, being murdered or raped? Murder is worse. I feel bad for your wife. She has nobody to protect her if needed. But at least she has a "chosen" husband.Ezra wrote: ↑March 17th, 2017, 11:11 pm
You must have missed my reply. I already explained this.
Doing nothing is following the same old wore out pattern of fighting and contention.
Not doing the normal human reaction is the doing something.
2 wrong will never make a right. Why do you keep insisting that fighting is good?
I will ask again. How does this fit in what the elder did?
D&c 121
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
How did that missionary do in using his priesthood in accordance with what it takes to be chosen?
No actually she has an emasculated husband who won't defend himself or his loved ones when they are preyed upon by evil and conspiring criminals. Welcome to the snowflake generation. :ymsick: Maybe this scripture in Deuteronomy might have application?
" He that is wounded in the stones, or has his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
You have always seemed to me from your posts to be a really good humble follower of Christ.
Why do you feel the need to try to look down your nose at me?
Remember you are nothing. So am I. And read d&c 98 on my opinion of self defense since your opinion is of based.
Is it wrong for me to expect more from you?
No personal offense intended Ezra. It's all hypothetical in nature. I don't know you personally so why would I judge you on a hypothetical? Sorry for the flippant comeback. I hope you would defend your loved ones from predators. I'm sure you would. :ymhug:
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
No I feel the spirit. It has nothing to do with knowing a person. It's knowing the Holy Ghost. If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of god. The Holy Ghost has always lead me down good paths I trust the Holy Ghost.SmallFarm wrote: ↑March 19th, 2017, 12:25 pmThat's not your gut that's your ego. You don't know the missionary so how can you judge him. Step off your pedestal! X(Ezra wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 9:44 pmMy gut tells me he didn't act by direction of the lord. Watching the video makes my heart sad. And I'm not one who dislikes self defense.SmallFarm wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 2:04 pmI agree with Ezra to a large extent in principle when it comes to non-violence. Where I disagree with him is his judgement of this individual missionary. It is not our duty to call out individuals who may or may not be acting on direction of the Lord. We should err on the side of charity, and let the All Knowing be the judge.Older/wiser? wrote: ↑March 18th, 2017, 1:07 pm Thanks Smallfarm a wise assessment , of course Ezra would defend his family , no need to make personal attacks, each situation of aggression requires a different danger assessment. As one who has been attacked the natural instinct is to fight back,as I did, most would yet Ezra was just pointing to the high road that the Savior is always pointing us to. Listening to the Spirit will counsel , flee, fight ,there is no one way to handle every different situations as. Joseph at times hid, at times fled, and at times marshalled the people to fight.
I don't have any negative feelings towards the elder. I feel he missed an opportunity is all. We all do that so I don't look down on him for that.
But I ask you. Look through this thread. How many mean condescending comments are directed towards me. People tend to direct their anger at those who challenge something that they need to work on.
It's a defense mechanism for protecting their pride. They become offended. And instead of looking inside to the problem. They point their fingers in anger to the person pointing it out.
A person who has no pride Does not ever get offended. They may disagree. But that disagreement doesn't cause them to become angry or get vindictive.
That comment will probably anger some people. It's not meant to. It's just a true statement.
I don't hold any negative feeling about those comments. I know what's happening. I still fall for that trap myself from time to time. Still doesn't mean that I don't wish we could all figure out how to be kind to one another.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
:-$
Last edited by SmallFarm on March 19th, 2017, 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
So going on an LDS mission means you don't have the rights God gave a jungle animal?
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
When we are filled with love, violence is not a natural reaction.
If a man has debased himself so much that he is willing to steal from you then it tells me that he needs the money more than most do. Losing one's self respect comes at a price. Although many criminals may not admit it, the price they pay to lose their self respect and steal from others typically leaves them much poorer than the rest of us.
The elder didn't prevent these robbers from stealing again; he just showed them that they need to be more violent the next time they rob someone. The real battle is for people's hearts, that's what we are to fight for, not for money.
When we are filled with love, violence is not a natural reaction.
If a man has debased himself so much that he is willing to steal from you then it tells me that he needs the money more than most do. Losing one's self respect comes at a price. Although many criminals may not admit it, the price they pay to lose their self respect and steal from others typically leaves them much poorer than the rest of us.
The elder didn't prevent these robbers from stealing again; he just showed them that they need to be more violent the next time they rob someone. The real battle is for people's hearts, that's what we are to fight for, not for money.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
That's a great code to live by for yourself but when you use that code to judge missionary or to say he is out of line then you are doing the work of the accuser.butterfly wrote: ↑March 19th, 2017, 11:46 pm 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
When we are filled with love, violence is not a natural reaction.
If a man has debased himself so much that he is willing to steal from you then it tells me that he needs the money more than most do. Losing one's self respect comes at a price. Although many criminals may not admit it, the price they pay to lose their self respect and steal from others typically leaves them much poorer than the rest of us.
The elder didn't prevent these robbers from stealing again; he just showed them that they need to be more violent the next time they rob someone. The real battle is for people's hearts, that's what we are to fight for, not for money.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
Had the missionary been shot and killed, and maybe even the other one, how many of you would be wondering why they didn't fight back? Why would they just stand there and be shot by a child of hell without even raising a finger?
It's easy to sit back and say the missionary was wrong, or that it was not okay for him to take on that slime ball. Maybe it wasn't his time to go. Had God wanted him home it may have gone a different route. And who's to say God didn't have something to do with his success in overcoming the creep in the first place?
It's easy to sit back and say the missionary was wrong, or that it was not okay for him to take on that slime ball. Maybe it wasn't his time to go. Had God wanted him home it may have gone a different route. And who's to say God didn't have something to do with his success in overcoming the creep in the first place?
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
When we are filled with love, violence is not a natural reaction.
I’m pretty sure the next time you find yourself between a loving mother bear and her cubs, a bear hug isn’t going to resolve the issue.
Personally, if I was confronted with a stranger who threatened my life and had the means to carry out his threat, I’m pretty sure adrenaline would take precedence over a drawn out thought process, and my actions in self-defense would be justifiable by natural law, and the laws of men.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
Thank you SmallFarm, I agree. I can see how my post could sound like I am judging the missionary, thanks for pointing that out to me. I am not accusing him of anything, though. I am simply making a blanket statement of what I believe to be true, which can be applied to any situation.SmallFarm wrote: ↑March 20th, 2017, 11:37 amThat's a great code to live by for yourself but when you use that code to judge missionary or to say he is out of line then you are doing the work of the accuser.butterfly wrote: ↑March 19th, 2017, 11:46 pm 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
When we are filled with love, violence is not a natural reaction.
If a man has debased himself so much that he is willing to steal from you then it tells me that he needs the money more than most do. Losing one's self respect comes at a price. Although many criminals may not admit it, the price they pay to lose their self respect and steal from others typically leaves them much poorer than the rest of us.
The elder didn't prevent these robbers from stealing again; he just showed them that they need to be more violent the next time they rob someone. The real battle is for people's hearts, that's what we are to fight for, not for money.
When we are filled with love, violence is not a natural reaction. That has nothing to do with the elder, it is simply what I believe to be true.
I am not saying that the elder was out of line. He acted exactly the way our bodies are wired to react - flight or fight.
However, we are trying to progress. So while I believe self-defense to be completely justified, it's good to recognize that we want to progress beyond being justified. The law of Moses taught that an eye for an eye was fair, it was justifiable. But a higher law states:
44 Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
In order to become perfect, I have to feel the same kind of love towards the mugger that I feel for my own child.
I am grateful that no one was killed in this encounter, but I am surprised at how people are cheering this elder on as if what he did was Christ-like. It is justifiable, yes, 100%. But he repeatedly beat in the head another child of God. And when I see another child of God being assaulted, I just can't applaud. This is why Jesus healed the soldier's ear after Peter cut it off.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
Yes, it would be completely justifiable for you to defend yourself, I agree 100%.Toto wrote: ↑March 20th, 2017, 3:03 pmWhen we are filled with love, violence is not a natural reaction.
I’m pretty sure the next time you find yourself between a loving mother bear and her cubs, a bear hug isn’t going to resolve the issue.
Personally, if I was confronted with a stranger who threatened my life and had the means to carry out his threat, I’m pretty sure adrenaline would take precedence over a drawn out thought process, and my actions in self-defense would be justifiable by natural law, and the laws of men.
But it's good to remember that there's a difference between being justified and being righteous. To be justified is to be declared "not guilty." You are not sinning when you defend yourself.
However, just because you are not sinning, does not mean that you avoid the natural consequences. If you kill someone, even in self-defense, then you have to deal with all the repercussions of having taken a life. Just because someone "deserves" something, doesn't mean that it is righteous to "let them have it." This is exactly what the atonement teaches - that even when we would be justified in hurting another, we choose to turn the other cheek.
When ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me - are you ever justified in hurting the Savior?
No, of course not.
So just remember that whatever you do to another, you do to the Savior, too. For His sake, turn the other cheek.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
Wonderfully said, Butterfly!butterfly wrote: ↑March 20th, 2017, 7:11 pmYes, it would be completely justifiable for you to defend yourself, I agree 100%.Toto wrote: ↑March 20th, 2017, 3:03 pmWhen we are filled with love, violence is not a natural reaction.
I’m pretty sure the next time you find yourself between a loving mother bear and her cubs, a bear hug isn’t going to resolve the issue.
Personally, if I was confronted with a stranger who threatened my life and had the means to carry out his threat, I’m pretty sure adrenaline would take precedence over a drawn out thought process, and my actions in self-defense would be justifiable by natural law, and the laws of men.
But it's good to remember that there's a difference between being justified and being righteous. To be justified is to be declared "not guilty." You are not sinning when you defend yourself.
However, just because you are not sinning, does not mean that you avoid the natural consequences. If you kill someone, even in self-defense, then you have to deal with all the repercussions of having taken a life. Just because someone "deserves" something, doesn't mean that it is righteous to "let them have it." This is exactly what the atonement teaches - that even when we would be justified in hurting another, we choose to turn the other cheek.
When ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me - are you ever justified in hurting the Savior?
No, of course not.
So just remember that whatever you do to another, you do to the Savior, too. For His sake, turn the other cheek.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
Last edited by SmallFarm on March 20th, 2017, 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun
To butterfly and Matchmaker: Amen and amen.
Thou shalt not (insert whatever) in “thought” or in deed because thoughts become things!
"And Forgive us Our Trespasses, as we Forgive those who Trespass against Us."
Lead me, guide me, walk beside me,
Help me find the way.
Teach me all that I must do
To live with Him someday.
A song of the heart!
Love and Peace
Toto
Thou shalt not (insert whatever) in “thought” or in deed because thoughts become things!
"And Forgive us Our Trespasses, as we Forgive those who Trespass against Us."
Lead me, guide me, walk beside me,
Help me find the way.
Teach me all that I must do
To live with Him someday.
A song of the heart!
Love and Peace
Toto