LDS Missionary Beats Up Mugger w/Gun

[Ezra]

Justified vs what would god do??? That's the question I am asking.

No one is arguing that you can take a life in self defense and be justified.

But what would god do? Can you see our loving god killing one of his children?

Why didn't he kill Satan and the 1/3 of host who fought against him.?????

Why didn't our savior kill anyone during his life here on earth?

Great questions. Maybe the Book of Mormon can correct your incorrect assumptions about what God would and wouldn't do-
4:12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;
4:13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes.
Or this BoM story- 9:18 And God did hear our cries and did answer our prayers; and we did go forth in his might; yea, we did go forth against the Lamanites, and in one day and a night we did slay three thousand and forty-three; we did slay them even until we had driven them out of our land.


Wo!! He "slayeth the wicked". Did you catch that, Ezra? A "loving God" slays some of His children. Heck, He even says he's going to burn them- 6:7 For behold, after ye have been nourished by the good word of God all the day long, will ye bring forth evil fruit, that ye must be hewn down and cast into the fire?

I'm not sure you've read the Book of Mormon. It's full of this stuff.

33:10 Yea, and thou hast also heard me when I have been cast out and have been despised by mine enemies; yea, thou didst hear my cries, and wast angry with mine enemies, and thou didst visit them in thine anger with speedy destruction.

15:17 And now behold, saith the Lord, concerning the people of the Nephites: If they will not repent, and observe to do my will, I will utterly destroy them, saith the Lord, because of their unbelief notwithstanding the many mighty works which I have done among them; and as surely as the Lord liveth shall these things be, saith the Lord.

"Utterly destroy them"?? That's not very nice.

so then our god is a contradiction? Loves all but kill them anyways. Is all loving but seeks to destroy them that don't do as he says?

Is your interpretation of those scriptures is that of god were here. He would would mow people down with a full auto or something similar if they were sinners and not doing as they should or in self protection?

Vs try to covert them. Love them. Turn the other cheek.

What converts more people? War or peace?

Peaceful sharing of the gospel and teaching. Not fighting like the anti nephi lehi and other examples. Or war?

It's been my observation that god allows the wicked to punish the wicked.

That god uses hardships trials to humble.

I see it all the time 2 sinners fighting amongst themselves.

They essentially created their own trials and pain and suffering.

You can call that or describe it as Gods justice. If they destroyed themselfs or one side other the other as gods destroyed them because one side or the other was less wicked.

Are there any evidence or examples of the people of Enoch fighting wars?

Im asking for what's the high road? What's the best example we can follow and why.

This is part of learning from others and teach one another.

I know I can kill my neighbors in self defense. But what do I need to do to not have to kill my neighbors?? What would god do?

[freedomforall]

But what do I need to do to not have to kill my neighbors?

Get yourself a mask that looks like this!

Beautiful 1.jpg (150.89 KiB) Viewed 950 times

[freedomforall]

Or sell a special brand of pizza.

Herpes Pizza.jpg (63.44 KiB) Viewed 943 times

[freedomforall]

Or acquire some tough protection.

Hmm Finger Licking Good.jpg (29.9 KiB) Viewed 942 times

[freedomforall]

Maybe get a BODY guard.

Hairy.jpg (110.16 KiB) Viewed 939 times

[shadow]

I doubt the people of Enoch were robbing each other at gun point.

The scripture references, just a small portion of them, stare at you. If you want to look away like you do, that's certainly your choice.

[eddie]

Maybe get a BODY guard.


Hairy.jpg

Any volunteers, do we have any hairy beasts on the forum?

[freedomforall]

Maybe get a BODY guard.


Hairy.jpg

Any volunteers, do we have any hairy beasts on the forum?

I Use Bosley's.jpg (59.64 KiB) Viewed 831 times

[Ezra]

How's about reality FFA. I'm asking an honest question.

Is there no one who can honestly answer?

Has God not given us any guidance other then to kill in self defense?

[Ezra]

I doubt the people of Enoch were robbing each other at gun point.

The scripture references, just a small portion of them, stare at you. If you want to look away like you do, that's certainly your choice.

What?

[freedomforall]

How's about reality FFA. I'm asking an honest question.

Is there no one who can honestly answer?

Has God not given us any guidance other then to kill in self defense?

You know, you know the answer already, Ezra. God destroys wicked people and has done for centuries.
Read in 3 Nephi 9 where God destroyed city after city of wicked people. Many were burned, some were sunk under ground.

1 And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this land, crying:

2 Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth except they shall repent; for the devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen!

3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I bburied up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.

9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their awickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.

11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I did send down afire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me from the ground against them.

12 And many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations.

[Ezra]

No one is contending that ffa.

God has also told to turn the other cheek and that we will be blessed to the forth generation for not killing our neighbors even if they are delivered into our hands and it would be justified. In d&c 98

Given us the example of the people of Enoch. The story of the anti nephi lehi. D&c 121 33-43 on how we are to act to be chosen and how we loose the priesthood if we don't act in accordance to those guidelines. Which doesn't include killing as far as I can't tell.

Being justified is passing grade. I'm asking what is the better way?

What's an a+?

Why didn't Christ kill in self defense? Why didn't god kill the 1/3 of hosts and Satan? He was justified.

The scriptures say in d&c 121 33-43 that those not chosen fight against god. Which makes them an enemy of god. Why dosent he just kill all of them? He would be justified.


What is the high road? Not what is justified.

Is that a scary question?

Or is it that people just don't want to admit that there is a high road?

[shadow]

How's about reality FFA. I'm asking an honest question.

Is there no one who can honestly answer?

Has God not given us any guidance other then to kill in self defense?

You'll note that the missionary didn't kill anyone, right?

[shadow]

No one is contending that ffa.

God has also told to turn the other cheek and that we will be blessed to the forth generation for not killing our neighbors even if they are delivered into our hands and it would be justified. In d&c 98

Given us the example of the people of Enoch. The story of the anti nephi lehi. D&c 121 33-43 on how we are to act to be chosen and how we loose the priesthood if we don't act in accordance to those guidelines. Which doesn't include killing as far as I can't tell.

Being justified is passing grade. I'm asking what is the better way?

What's an a+?

Why didn't Christ kill in self defense? Why didn't god kill the 1/3 of hosts and Satan? He was justified.

The scriptures say in d&c 121 33-43 that those not chosen fight against god. Which makes them an enemy of god. Why dosent he just kill all of them? He would be justified.


What is the high road? Not what is justified.

Is that a scary question?

Or is it that people just don't want to admit that there is a high road?

Maybe I should word things differently-
Has God had people killed? The answer is an absolute yes. So did God take the low road? You seem to be saying He did. You also claim that we should be like Him, and yet he absolutely, positively has killed people. Something to ponderize.

[shadow]

I doubt the people of Enoch were robbing each other at gun point.

The scripture references, just a small portion of them, stare at you. If you want to look away like you do, that's certainly your choice.

What?

What don't you understand?
You claim the people of Enoch probably didn't kill. I claim that they probably had no reason to.
I also showed you BoM scriptures where God was involved in the death of people. Did you not understand it?

[butterfly]

From my understanding, God doesn't kill in self-defense. He's let innocent people be burned alive and said it was actually better that way for their own personal salvation.


11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

One of God's jobs is to judge the wicked. He will allow the wicked to be killed when the blood of the innocent cry for justice.

"therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them."

He will also kill when the spiritual life of His children is at stake- not their mortal lives, He's concerned about their eternal welfare.

"Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

In this ^^^^example with Nephi, the Lord didn't tell Nephi to kill Laban in self- defense, even though Laban did try to kill and rob Nephi. Look at the reasoning the Lord used to justify killing Laban:

"And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments."
The Lord wants to protect the spiritual lives of Nephi's family by giving them the scriptures.

The other time the Lord will resort to killing is when someone's work on the earth has not been completed. For example:

12 Now Amulek said unto Alma: Behold, perhaps they will burn us also.

13 And Alma said: Be it according to the will of the Lord. But, behold, our work is not finished; therefore they burn us not.

How many prophets and saints have died under torture or endured all types of physical suffering? Where was the Lord? Why didn't He step in and tell these righteous men and women to use the priesthood to protect themselves?

It's because physical suffering alone is not enough to compel God to use the priesthood in self defense. He will use it:
1) when justice is required
2) when spiritual lives are at stake
3) when someone's work on the earth is not yet completed

Maybe the Spirit did prompt the missionary to act - if so, then it was the right thing to do. But I don't see physical danger alone as one of the reasons God uses destruction in the scriptures.

[eddie]

Maybe get a BODY guard.


Hairy.jpg

Any volunteers, do we have any hairy beasts on the forum?

I Use Bosley's.jpg
[/quote
LOL, this guy is intimidating. I like his sweater!

[freedomforall]

Maybe get a BODY guard.


Hairy.jpg

Any volunteers, do we have any hairy beasts on the forum?

I Use Bosley's.jpg
[/quote
LOL, this guy is intimidating. I like his sweater!

https://www.pond5.com/sound-effect/8754837/gorilla.html

[freedomforall]

No one is contending that ffa.

God has also told to turn the other cheek and that we will be blessed to the forth generation for not killing our neighbors even if they are delivered into our hands and it would be justified. In d&c 98

Given us the example of the people of Enoch. The story of the anti nephi lehi. D&c 121 33-43 on how we are to act to be chosen and how we loose the priesthood if we don't act in accordance to those guidelines. Which doesn't include killing as far as I can't tell.

Being justified is passing grade. I'm asking what is the better way?

What's an a+?

Why didn't Christ kill in self defense? Why didn't god kill the 1/3 of hosts and Satan? He was justified.

The scriptures say in d&c 121 33-43 that those not chosen fight against god. Which makes them an enemy of god. Why dosent he just kill all of them? He would be justified.


What is the high road? Not what is justified.

Is that a scary question?

Or is it that people just don't want to admit that there is a high road?

Sure we are taught to turn the other cheek. But those muggers were not there to smite the missionaries. They were there to shoot and kill if they didn't get what they wanted (read the article again).
Where in scripture does it say that anyone is supposed to just stand in one place and deliberately allow another human to shoot and kill them? And we're not talking about a firing squad killing a condemned person standing in front of a wall here. There is a huge difference between turning one's cheek and getting their body ventilated.

Fighting for freedom is a form of self defense. Whenever freedom is to be taken away by an enemy
aren't we under obligation to fight to keep it? President Benson said to stand up for freedom whatever the cost, it may save your soul.

Alma 51:13-36 Pay close attention to verses 33,34. Was Teancum a righteous man? Was he still counted as righteous after his deed?

13 And it came to pass that when the men who were called king-men had heard that the Lamanites were coming down to battle against them, they were glad in their hearts; and they refused to take up arms, for they were so wroth with the chief judge, and also with the people of liberty, that they would not take up arms to defend their country.

14 And it came to pass that when Moroni saw this, and also saw that the Lamanites were coming into the borders of the land, he was exceedingly wroth because of the stubbornness of those people whom he had labored with so much diligence to preserve; yea, he was exceedingly wroth; his soul was filled with anger against them.

15 And it came to pass that he sent a petition, with the voice of the people, unto the governor of the land, desiring that he should read it, and give him (Moroni) power to compel those dissenters to defend their country or to put them to death.

16 For it was his first care to put an end to such contentions and dissensions among the people; for behold, this had been hitherto a cause of all their destruction. And it came to pass that it was granted according to the voice of the people.

17 And it came to pass that Moroni commanded that his army should go against those king-men, to pull down their pride and their nobility and level them with the earth, or they should take up arms and support the cause of liberty.

18 And it came to pass that the armies did march forth against them; and they did pull down their pride and their nobility, insomuch that as they did lift their weapons of war to fight against the men of Moroni they were hewn down and leveled to the earth.

19 And it came to pass that there were four thousand of those dissenters who were hewn down by the sword; and those of their leaders who were not slain in battle were taken and cast into prison, for there was no time for their trials at this period.

20 And the remainder of those dissenters, rather than be smitten down to the earth by the sword, yielded to the standard of liberty, and were compelled to hoist the title of liberty upon their towers, and in their cities, and to take up arms in defence of their country.

21 And thus Moroni put an end to those king-men, that there were not any known by the appellation of king-men; and thus he put an end to the stubbornness and the pride of those people who professed the blood of nobility; but they were brought down to humble themselves like unto their brethren, and to fight valiantly for their freedom from bondage.

22 Behold, it came to pass that while Moroni was thus breaking down the wars and contentions among his own people, and subjecting them to peace and civilization, and making regulations to prepare for war against the Lamanites, behold, the Lamanites had come into the land of Moroni, which was in the borders by the seashore.

23 And it came to pass that the Nephites were not sufficiently strong in the city of Moroni; therefore Amalickiah did drive them, slaying many. And it came to pass that Amalickiah took possession of the city, yea, possession of all their fortifications.

24 And those who fled out of the city of Moroni came to the city of Nephihah; and also the people of the city of Lehi gathered themselves together, and made preparations and were ready to receive the Lamanites to battle.

25 But it came to pass that Amalickiah would not suffer the Lamanites to go against the city of Nephihah to battle, but kept them down by the seashore, leaving men in every city to maintain and defend it.

26 And thus he went on, taking possession of many cities, the city of Nephihah, and the city of Lehi, and the city of Morianton, and the city of Omner, and the city of Gid, and the city of Mulek, all of which were on the east borders by the seashore.

27 And thus had the Lamanites obtained, by the cunning of Amalickiah, so many cities, by their numberless hosts, all of which were strongly fortified after the manner of the fortifications of Moroni; all of which afforded strongholds for the Lamanites.

28 And it came to pass that they marched to the borders of the land Bountiful, driving the Nephites before them and slaying many.

29 But it came to pass that they were met by Teancum, who had slain Morianton and had headed his people in his flight.

30 And it came to pass that he headed Amalickiah also, as he was marching forth with his numerous army that he might take possession of the land Bountiful, and also the land northward.

31 But behold he met with a disappointment by being repulsed by Teancum and his men, for they were great warriors; for every man of Teancum did exceed the Lamanites in their strength and in their skill of war, insomuch that they did gain advantage over the Lamanites.

32 And it came to pass that they did harass them, insomuch that they did slay them even until it was dark. And it came to pass that Teancum and his men did pitch their tents in the borders of the land Bountiful; and Amalickiah did pitch his tents in the borders on the beach by the seashore, and after this manner were they driven.

33 And it came to pass that when the night had come, Teancum and his servant stole forth and went out by night, and went into the camp of Amalickiah; and behold, sleep had overpowered them because of their much fatigue, which was caused by the labors and heat of the day.

34 And it came to pass that Teancum stole privily into the tent of the king, and put a javelin to his heart; and he did cause the death of the king immediately that he did not awake his servants.

35 And he returned again privily to his own camp, and behold, his men were asleep, and he awoke them and told them all the things that he had done.

36 And he caused that his armies should stand in readiness, lest the Lamanites had awakened and should come upon them.