Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

[ripliancum]

The Hopewell who are probably the Nephites built fortifications in the same way as described in the Book of Mormon.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tions.html

[brianj]

There's an uncomfortably high amount of speculation in this "evidence." The one thing that comes the closest to being real evidence is the ditch and wall that allegedly surrounded a Hopewell city, but how big of an obstacle would that ditch and wall have been? A large force approaching in a concentrated group could easily run right over that little wall.

[Durzan]

seriously, reposting the same junk over and over again is only going to make those who try to read your stuff more annoyed with you.

[ripliancum]

Durzan you sound like a anti Mormon or support the meso American model.

Many of the Hopewell walls that remain are after 2000 years of erosion. When settlers arrived they found the Hopewell sites well made fortifications that fit the Book of Mormon perfectly. There are no civilizations found in central or south America that built mound and timber stockades as there main source of defense. There are a few examples but are not typical. For the Hopewell it was there main source of defense and fits the Book of Mormon perfectly.

[Robin Hood]

There's an uncomfortably high amount of speculation in this "evidence." The one thing that comes the closest to being real evidence is the ditch and wall that allegedly surrounded a Hopewell city, but how big of an obstacle would that ditch and wall have been? A large force approaching in a concentrated group could easily run right over that little wall.

We have similar fortifications here in England.
Ditches fill in over the years.

[inho]

The Hopewell who are probably the Nephites built fortifications in the same way as described in the Book of Mormon.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tions.html

Can someone please explain to me what is the significance of this? I haven't read the Book of Mormon Evidence blog or your other posts here in the forum, so maybe I'm missing something. What I read, was that according to sourceless information Hopewells build ditches around their villages. Also, according to some reconstruction (by whom?) they had timber stockades too. This is presented in connection of some passages from BoM. Is building ditches and timber stockades unusual?

I don't know what Durzan meant, but perhaps it would be better to collect all the Hopewell stuff to the same thread, since this evidence alone doesn't really impress me.

[brianj]

The Hopewell who are probably the Nephites built fortifications in the same way as described in the Book of Mormon.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tions.html

Can someone please explain to me what is the significance of this? I haven't read the Book of Mormon Evidence blog or your other posts here in the forum, so maybe I'm missing something. What I read, was that according to sourceless information Hopewells build ditches around their villages. Also, according to some reconstruction (by whom?) they had timber stockades too. This is presented in connection of some passages from BoM. Is building ditches and timber stockades unusual?

I don't know what Durzan meant, but perhaps it would be better to collect all the Hopewell stuff to the same thread, since this evidence alone doesn't really impress me.

At the risk of being labeled anti-Mormon or a supporter of the Mesoamerican hypothesis:
No, constructing with timber and building ditches are not unusual. What would be very unusual is ditches remaining after a period of more than 2,600 years. Since these are not unusual actions most of us will see these remains of ancient structures and have some interest, and maybe wonder if they could have been Nephite of Lamanite fortifications. Unfortunately some people will see these structures, immediately conclude nobody but the Nephites could have built them, hold them us as proof of the Book of Mormon, and accuse anybody who questions their conclusions of disbelief.

[larsenb]

Durzan you sound like a anti Mormon or support the meso American model.

Many of the Hopewell walls that remain are after 2000 years of erosion. When settlers arrived they found the Hopewell sites well made fortifications that fit the Book of Mormon perfectly. There are no civilizations found in central or south America that built mound and timber stockades as there main source of defense. . . . .

Sorry, Ripliancum. This: "there are no civilizations found in central or south America that built mound and timber stockades as there main source of defense", is simply not true. Ric Hauck has done extensive excavations in Guatemala on sites exhibiting such features, minus the mounds, or evidence of such features.

He has excavated deep defensive ditches, sometimes double in nature and with communication trenches between key points. And these aren't confused with mounds, which I'm not aware played any defensive role.

[DesertWonderer]

Durzan you sound like a anti Mormon or support the meso American model.

Many of the Hopewell walls that remain are after 2000 years of erosion. When settlers arrived they found the Hopewell sites well made fortifications that fit the Book of Mormon perfectly. There are no civilizations found in central or south America that built mound and timber stockades as there main source of defense. There are a few examples but are not typical. For the Hopewell it was there main source of defense and fits the Book of Mormon perfectly.

Sorry to be the bearrer of bad news but once again riliancum you are completely wrong. 100's of cities in mesoamerica were fortified with earthen mounds and timber stockades AND the construction dated w/in BoM times. I notice that your "evidence" is very short on corroborating dates as with most the "evidences" listed by the Wayne May crowd. A good example of a mesoamerican fortified city would be the city of Becan: " From 100 AD to 250 AD, the famous moat and wall was constructed around the Plazas to protect the city’s leaders and elite."

Fast Facts about Becán
The moat is approximately 16 feet (5 m) deep and 32 feet (10 m) wide, and when added to the embankment it creates a nearly 40 foot (12 m) high defensive barrier.
The moat was built sometime between AD 100 and 250, as a defensive ditch surrounding the ceremonial city and reservoirs. The dirt and stones from the ditch were used to create a fortified wall around the city.
Seven entrances have been discovered that cross the moat and lead into the city.
Becán’s oldest permanent structures have been dated to about 550 BC.
Becán is located about 150 km (93.2 mi) north of Tikal.
Trade goods from Teotihuacan outside Mexico City have been found in Becan showing communication and trade with this Central Mexican settlement.
The tallest pyramid is 30 meters (100 ft) and located in the Central Plaza
From 1969 to 1971, archaeological excavations conducted at Becán were sponsored by Tulane University and the National Geographic Society.

The description of these fortifications are MUCH more like the BoM fortifications than those you site as evidence.

https://www.locogringo.com/mexico/ways- ... can-ruins/

Do yourself a favor and get a new gospel hobby.

[AI2.0]

The Hopewell who are probably the Nephites built fortifications in the same way as described in the Book of Mormon.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tions.html

This is interesting, but it doesn't change the fact that the Heartland model just doesn't fit with Book of Mormon geography. Also, the Hopewell are circa 200 BC to 500 AD and while they know a some about their civilization, what I've read, doesn't describe the Nephite advanced civilization. Also, the Nephite/Lamanites came in 600 BC, which is three hundred years earlier. I like this theory;

http://ldsmag.com/article-1-13128/

This guy points out the peoples who left the Nephite civilization and struck out on their own, going to the North. I agree with him, that the Hopewell could be a part of this group, who left the main Nephite/Lamanite lands which were most likely in MesoAmerica. See Alma 63.

Ripliancum. I hope you don't have too much invested in the Heartland theory being fact. That's not a good idea. As I've pointed out before, if Joseph Smith revealed the Heartland model, then the church would take a firm position on this, which you know they don't. They don't because the actual location of the Nephite/Lamanite lands has not been revealed. Heartland is a THEORY, just as MesoAmerica is a theory.

[ripliancum]

The main building material of the Nephites was timber. In meso America the main building material was stone. Also the Book of Mormon never mentions jungles.

Meso America and south America has no migrating land mammals cattle goats horses. North America does.

[larsenb]

The main building material of the Nephites was timber. In meso America the main building material was stone. Also the Book of Mormon never mentions jungles.

Meso America and south America has no migrating land mammals cattle goats horses. North America does.

Actually, there is no passage in the Book of Mormon saying the Nephites built their buildings of wood. It does say that King Noah ornamented their buildings with fine workmanship of wood.

However, you could take Helaman 3:11 to imply that the Nephites built their buildings primarily out of wood. Nonetheless, this does not preclude their use of stones in various buildings or other structures, such as towers.

In fact, Alma 48:8 indicates they used stone extensively both to fortify some of their forts, cities and even the borders of the land:

Alma 48:8: Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land.

And Omni 1:20 tells of finding a large stone with engravings on it, which strongly suggests carved stelae, which are found throughout Mesoamerica.

Omni 1:20: And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large stone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did interpret the engravings by the gift and power of God.

Your also seem to be confusing the later use of monumental stone architecture used by various groups in Mesoamerica, mainly post 400 AD, with what may have gone on earlier, in pre-Classic and earlier times. The remains of Teotihuacan used cement extensively, as do other ancient building to the north of what is normally thought to be Nephite lands in the Mesoamerican model. Which of course fits the description in the Book of Mormon of the lands northward and their inhabitants' use of cement.

Further, what does "migrating" cattle, goats and horses have to do w/the area of the continental U.S. vs Mesoamerica?? I'm not aware of any book of Mormon passage that talks about migrating cattle, goats and horses. Maybe you can point me to these passages.

I'm not aware that Rocky Mountain Goats migrated further than down the mountain in winter, and up the mountain in summer. Same with Big Horn Sheep, whose range, by the way, even today has them in NW Mexico and Baja California.

And equating Buffalo with the cattle talked about in the Book of Mormon?? A stretch. Two passages in the Book of Mormon talk about "all manner of cattle of every kind", which suggest more than one variety. Here are the passages on "all manner of cattle":

Enos 1:21: And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

Ether 9:18 And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man.

So singling out buffalo to cover all the variety of cattle, oxen and cows they tended just doesn't cover the bases . . . let along the difficulty of domesticating buffalo, especially without very strong fences.

And horses. There is evidence that horses were known in Mesoamerica, but Ill leave that to someone else to provide.

The point being, we simply don't know all the types of animals that may have populated either the continental U.S. or Mesoamerica in pre-Columbian times, especially over 1600 years ago.

I think you would do well to try to reign in your wild arm waving. Not to be unkind, but for me, you are way over your head in being able to bring much to the table in comparing the Heartland vs. the 'Mesoamerican' model and its evidences. If you really want to do this, you should first master what the strongest proponents of that 'Mesoamerican' model have to say. You keep getting them wrong.

[ripliancum]

The main building material was wood only after they exhausted all the wood in the area did the Nephites use other means to build there building which they mention as cement not stone. The north American Indians used daub and wattle a type of cement.

Helaman 3:9
9 And the people who were in the
land northward did dwell in tents,
and in houses of cement, and they
did suffer whatsoever tree should
spring up upon the face of the
land that it should grow up, that
in time they might have timber to
build their houses, yea, their cities,
and their temples, and their synagogues,
and their sanctuaries, and
all manner of their buildings.

Your right that the Book of Mormon states one time in the entire Book of Mormon that they built stones walls. It never states they made structures or building out of stone only wood. That disqualifies meso america. Meso American were advanced in making ALL THEIR buildings out of stone unfortunately. The Book of Mormon never states that one single building in the Book of Mormon was made out of stone. Wood the primary building materical and in the land desolation only after all the wood was exhausted was cement or in my opinion daub and wattle.

The main fortification for the Nephites built around ALL their cities was earthen mounds with timber stockades. stone wall are mentioned once to say used to say that stone walls were used to surround their lands. The Hopewell used earthen mound fortifications and timber stockades but also did build stone walls around their lands.

Meso American civilizations using only stone as their main source of building and fortifications and building is not a fit for the Book of Mormon.

[larsenb]

The main building material was wood only after they exhausted all the wood in the area did the Nephites use other means to build there building which they mention as cement not stone. The north American Indians used daub and wattle a type of cement.

Helaman 3:9
9 And the people who were in the
land northward did dwell in tents,
and in houses of cement, and they
did suffer whatsoever tree should
spring up upon the face of the
land that it should grow up, that
in time they might have timber to
build their houses, yea, their cities,
and their temples, and their synagogues,
and their sanctuaries, and
all manner of their buildings.

I already conceded that. No problem. But they also used stone for building. But Helaman 3:9 is talking about 'The Land Northward', not the Land of Zarahemla and environs, as you implly.

And very real cement was found throughout ruins in what the 'Mesoamerican' model would regard as the Land Northward. Massive amounts of cement were used in Teotihuacan, for instance. Not daub and wattle. So you're arm waving here and grasping at straws (literally, in your use of daub and wattle ;-) ). The emoticons stopped working.



And you don't rebut or concede any of the other points I make. Which is your style . . . .. and makes me wonder why you post on a discussion board.

[ripliancum]

Larsen there is not one single verse in the Book of Mormon that one single building or buildings were made out of stone. Can you name one meso american civilization that there primary building material was wood.

Daub and wattle is cement.

The land of desolation had timber until they used it all. Timber was so crucial that the Nephites shipped timber to the land desolation. Helaman 3:10

[larsenb]

Larsen there is not one single verse in the Book of Mormon that one single building or buildings were made out of stone. Can you name one meso american civilization that there primary building material was wood.

Daub and wattle is cement.

You miss the point. Monumental stone architecture in Mesoamerica became predominant in the Mayan, Toltecan and Aztec cultures, which largely post-date Book of Mormon times.

Also, "there is not one single verse in the Book of Mormon that one single building or buildings were made out of" wood. Your Helaman 3:9 verse simply implies that Nephite buildings in the Zarahemla region were made of wood. The actual passage is talking about The Land Northward, and simply says they were nurturing trees so they could build their buildiings out of wood given enough time. Meanwhile they were living in tents and cement houses.

You also miss the point that actual cement which is still standing is found throughout the region of the Land Northward as designated by the Mesoamerican model. You can still see it. I've been in houses from Teotihuacan built of cement that have been around for almost 2 K years.

Thinking that daub and wattle is cement is simply your (and others, I'm sure) grasping at straws. Your welcome to grasp all you want, though.

[larsenb]

. . . . Your right that the Book of Mormon states one time in the entire Book of Mormon that they built stones walls. It never states they made structures or building out of stone only wood. That disqualifies meso america. Meso American were advanced in making ALL THEIR buildings out of stone unfortunately. The Book of Mormon never states that one single building in the Book of Mormon was made out of stone. Wood the primary building materical and in the land desolation only after all the wood was exhausted was cement or in my opinion daub and wattle.

The main fortification for the Nephites built around ALL their cities was earthen mounds with timber stockades. Once stone wall are mentioned to surround their lands. The Hopewell used earthen mound fortifications and timber stockades but also did build stone walls around their lands.

Meso American civilizations using only stone as their main source of building and fortifications and building is not a fit for the Book of Mormon.

These are just WRONG statements from both a factual and a logical point of view.

[ripliancum]

If Im wrong prove it. Show me in scripture that says otherwise

Concerning climate and Buffalo

Book of Mormon has seasons Meso America does not have season except for hot and hotter.
Book of Mormon beast migrated according to the season from north to south. (Mosiah 18:4, Alma 22:31, Alma 46:40) Central and South America has no migrating land mammals. North America does have migrating land mammals the Buffalo. The Nephites mention fever during times of season. North America has the flu season.
Nephites grew grain during the season of grain. Helamin 11:13 North America is known as the bread basket of the world for its ability to grow grain during the right season.

The Jaredites followed the course of these beast during times of famine and ate their carcasses. This only makes sense in North America with the buffalo. At one time there were about 60,000,000 buffalo.

Ether 9
34 And it came to pass that the
people did follow the course of the
beasts, and did devour the carcasses
of them which fell by the way, until
they had devoured them all. Now
when the people saw that they must
perish they began to repent of their
iniquities and cry unto the Lord.

[larsenb]

. . . . Your right that the Book of Mormon states one time in the entire Book of Mormon that they built stones walls. It never states they made structures or building out of stone only wood. That disqualifies meso america. Meso American were advanced in making ALL THEIR buildings out of stone unfortunately. The Book of Mormon never states that one single building in the Book of Mormon was made out of stone. Wood the primary building materical and in the land desolation only after all the wood was exhausted was cement or in my opinion daub and wattle.

The main fortification for the Nephites built around ALL their cities was earthen mounds with timber stockades. Once stone wall are mentioned to surround their lands. The Hopewell used earthen mound fortifications and timber stockades but also did build stone walls around their lands.

Meso American civilizations using only stone as their main source of building and fortifications and building is not a fit for the Book of Mormon.

These are just WRONG statements from both a factual and a logical point of view.

OK. Here goes. The Book of Mormon states that stone walls were built around many of their forts, around many of their Cities and along their borders. Where are these stone walls in the continental U.S., outside of Anasazi/Pueblo remains? Give some examples . . . some citations that the Hopewell used stone walls around their lands.

Next, repeating what I’ve pointed out earlier, the Helaman 3:9 passage simply says that the people in the Land Northward had to live in tents or cement houses, until they could grow enough trees to build their buildings. This IMPLIES that the people in the region of Zarahemla, used wood extensively for building. It does not directly say the Zarahemlans used wood for their buildings. As mentioned, I concede that.

And Helaman 3:9 is the only passage that even implies the use of wood for their buildings. Also, the record contains no passage claiming the Nephites did NOT use stone in buildings of various sorts and at various times. So you can't say: the Mesoamericans built "ALL THEIR buildings out of stone" .

And while we’re on the subject, I’m not aware that there are any remaining structures that were used to house the populations occupying the well-known Mayan, Aztecan, Toltecan ceremonial sites, outside of the cement abodes in Teotihuacan and elsewhere. And even this structure, as I recall, was some sort of palace. Additionally, I’m not aware that the Mesoamerican civilizations preceding the Maya, Aztecs and Toltecs used much stone at all.

The point of this, is that even in these post-Nephite/Lamanite sites exhibiting very prominent stone pyramids and temples, etc., the common population may have used wood for their actual houses and for other purposes. This certainly could apply to those peoples/civilizations that preceded them.

[larsenb]

If Im wrong prove it. Show me in scripture that says otherwise

Concerning climate and Buffalo

Book of Mormon has seasons Meso America does not have season except for hot and hotter.
Book of Mormon beast migrated according to the season from north to south. (Mosiah 18:4, Alma 22:31, Alma 46:40) Central and South America has no migrating land mammals. North America does have migrating land mammals the Buffalo. The Nephites mention fever during times of season. North America has the flu season.
Nephites grew grain during the season of grain. Helamin 11:13 North America is known as the bread basket of the world for its ability to grow grain during the right season.

The Jaredites followed the course of these beast during times of famine and ate their carcasses. This only makes sense in North America with the buffalo. At one time there were about 60,000,000 buffalo.

Ether 9
34 And it came to pass that the
people did follow the course of the
beasts, and did devour the carcasses
of them which fell by the way, until
they had devoured them all. Now
when the people saw that they must
perish they began to repent of their
iniquities and cry unto the Lord.

You still maintain that the buffalo were the cattle of the Nephites, ignoring that they had all manner of cattle, cows and oxen. Incidentally, the range of the buffalo extended down into Mexico. See this map:

bisonrange.JPG (61.09 KiB) Viewed 1580 times

Did the range extend further south than shown 2600 to 2000 years ago? Why not. I doubt that all the data is in on that one. The Jaredites did encounter elephants.

And climates/fevers? How about malaria or similar tropical diseases? And growing season for various grains? What do they do in Highland Guatemala? Maybe their growing season was in the cooler parts of the year.

Regarding your migration idea, in Mosiah 18:4, it simply isn't clear what the 'wild beasts' were. If they were wild, they certainly weren't part of their flocks and herds. Also, they could be moving into this area by seasonal drought or some other reason. And in Alma 22:31, it says only a part of the wild animals inhabiting the South Wilderness came from the Land Northward, or the Land of Desolation. The passage says they came south seeking food, with the implication that the Land Desolation was indeed desolate and devoid of food, and because they are described as wild, they again are not part of the flocks and herds of the Nephites.

Finally, in your Ether 9:34 example of migrating animals. Ether, Verse 9: 31 says:

And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla.

These are the beasts that the group of Jaredites were following, and devouring. The beasts of their flocks were forced south by the poisonous serpents.

Your buffalo and migration arguments don't hold much water.

[ripliancum]

Those are for 1870 that's 2000 years after the Book of Mormon. The lack of buffalo in the great lakes could easily be due to human predation

Besides considering there are no migrating beast in South or central America its the only option.

[larsenb]

Those are for 1870 that's 2000 years after the Book of Mormon. The lack of buffalo in the great lakes could easily be due to human predation

Besides considering there are no migrating beast in South or central America its the only option.

I've just shown you that your animal migration idea holds no water in terms of the early Nephites and Lamanites. I've also shown you that your equating buffalo to the "all manner of cattle, oxen and cows" described in the Book of Mormon doesn't add up. Extremely iffy, at best.

There's simply no learning or dialogue with you. You can't even directly answer AI2.0's simple question regarding whether you think tribes outside of the Continental U.S. are descended from the Nephites/Lamanites.

[Niyr]

Don't forget that it's so warm in Michigan, that for the Lamanites, "sleep had overpowered them because of their much fatigue, which was caused by the labors and heat of the day," in the middle of winter.

[ripliancum]

The season of war for the lamanites and nephites were spring and summer not winter.
In my opinion its ridiculous to say that buffalo did not occupy the areas of the Great lakes. In the 1870 the settlers were trying to wipe out the buffalo. So the their migratory paths proably extended in the great lakes during Book of Mormon.

Larsen can you mention another animal that could be the migratoring land mammal besides the Buffalo????????

They way you are ripping the buffalo theory sounds like you know of a better idea.

[larsenb]

The season of war for the lamanites and nephites were spring and summer not winter.
In my opinion its ridiculous to say that buffalo did not occupy the areas of the Great lakes. In the 1870 the settlers were trying to wipe out the buffalo. So the their migratory paths proably extended in the great lakes during Book of Mormon.

Larsen can you mention another animal that could be the migratoring land mammal besides the Buffalo????????

They way you are ripping the buffalo theory sounds like you know of a better idea.

Once again, I've ripped your idea that the Nephites/Lamanites depended on migratory animals, using your own passages. That is what you need to respond to. There is really no evidence from the Book of Mormon passages you cited that the Nephites/Lamanites followed migratory herds. Go back and read what I wrote.

And I assume your 'buffalo theory' means that the buffalo constituted the Nephites' "all manner of cattle, oxen and cows". Notice that the phrase "all manner of cattle, oxen and cows" indicates different kinds of bovine-type animals, not just 'buffalo'. I've also pointed out that buffalo resist domestication and being penned up, unless you use strong fencing. I've also pointed out that according to apparent knowledge of ancient habitat, buffalo range extended down into Mexico, and also suggested that they may have ranged further south than they currently believe.

And if the maps show buffalo did not extend north of the southern tips of the Great Lakes, your dispute would be with the authors of the Wikipedia article. Maybe you can come up with a study that says they did.

So my idea, is that the Nephites had animals that fit the category of all manner of "cattle, oxen and cows". My idea is to believe what the Book of Mormon says. This would indicate that by the time of Cortez, etc., these animals were no longer on the scene . . . or they were in isolated pockets that no one knew about at the time.