Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

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ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by ripliancum »

The Jaredites followed the beast and ate their dead carcasses. The Nephites described migratory beast. Your problem is with scripture and the fact that central and South America dos not fit scripture.

The migratory path you are citing is for 1870 not 0AD

Ether 9
34 And it came to pass that the
people did follow the course of the
beasts, and did devour the carcasses
of them which fell by the way, until
they had devoured them all. Now
when the people saw that they must
perish they began to repent of their
iniquities and cry unto the Lord.

4 And it came to pass that as many
as did believe him did go forth to
a place which was called Mormon,
having received its name from the
king, being in the borders of the
land having been infested, by times
or at seasons, by wild beasts.


31 And they came from there a up
into the south wilderness. Thus the
b land on the northward was called
c Desolation, and the land on the
southward was called Bountiful,
it being the wilderness which is
filled with all manner of wild animals
of every kind, a part of which
had come from the land northward
for food.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: March 20th, 2017, 1:55 pm The Jaredites followed the beast and ate their dead carcasses. The Nephites described migratory beast. Your problem is with scripture and the fact that central and South America dos not fit scripture.

The migratory path you are citing is for 1870 not 0AD

Ether 9
34 And it came to pass that the
people did follow the course of the
beasts, and did devour the carcasses
of them which fell by the way, until
they had devoured them all. Now
when the people saw that they must
perish they began to repent of their
iniquities and cry unto the Lord.

4 And it came to pass that as many
as did believe him did go forth to
a place which was called Mormon,
having received its name from the
king, being in the borders of the
land having been infested, by times
or at seasons, by wild beasts.


31 And they came from there a up
into the south wilderness. Thus the
b land on the northward was called
c Desolation, and the land on the
southward was called Bountiful,
it being the wilderness which is
filled with all manner of wild animals
of every kind, a part of which
had come from the land northward
for food.
Go back and read what I posted. Located at: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45109#p773515

And what on earth are you talking about where you say: "The migratory path you are citing is for 1870 not 0AD" ? And why did you drop the full citations for what you just posted??

You are one 'interesting' (is that OK, Brian??) fellow, Mr. Ripliancum

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by ripliancum »

The migrating beast are the same for the Nephites as it is for the Jaredites. There had to be a large herd of animals for the Jaredites to follow buffalo fit this description.

samizdat
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by samizdat »

There is MUCH stronger support for Mesoamerica (and even South America) over North America over where the BOM took place.

The Be´Kan (path of the snake) ruins in Campeche Mexico show the moat fortification that the Book of Mormon has. There is nothing like that anywhere in North America. Even the ruins of Tiwanaku in Bolivia show some fortifications like those in the Book of Mormon (albeit no cement was used)...

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: March 21st, 2017, 12:34 pm The migrating beast are the same for the Nephites as it is for the Jaredites. There had to be a large herd of animals for the Jaredites to follow buffalo fit this description.
Once again with feeling, the Jaredites followed "the beasts" because the beasts were fleeing south to Zarahemla trying to get away from poisonous serpents (Ether 9:31). And the Jaredites ended up devouring those that fell by the way. I.e., they were trying to stave off hunger. The beasts were "their flocks, NOT migrating buffalo. I don't see how you can get anything else out of this.

And I've already analyzed the non-Ether passages you provided and they say nothing about migrating buffalo; and your inferring migration from these passages is a real stretch. Further, Mormon says the Nephites had "all manner of cattle, oxen and cows". Buffalo do NOT equate to "all manner of cattle, oxen and cows", not to mention the almost impossibility for the Nephites to domesticate buffalo or to control their movements.

Now you can go ahead and once more repeat what you've already posted. But repetition does NOT make an argument.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by ripliancum »

Beast refers to wild animals not domesticated sheep or cattle. The Nephites say there were migrating beast there is no reason the Jaredites in time of famine did not follow the buffalo to escape starvation. The Nephites state that the beast migrated north and south for food. Once again south and central America do not have migrating beast.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 12:44 pm Beast refers to wild animals not domesticated sheep or cattle. The Nephites say there were migrating beast there is no reason the Jaredites in time of famine did not follow the buffalo to escape starvation. The Nephites state that the beast migrated north and south for food. Once again south and central America do not have migrating beast.
Nope. When Mormon refers to wild animals, he normally describes them as "wild beasts", "ravenous beasts", " wild beasts of the forest", or "beasts of prey". Check it out. But he mostly describe actual wild beasts as just that: wild beasts.

Here are passages where beasts refer to just animals:

Mosiah 8:8 " . . . . a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel." It doesn't make much sense to think they were describing just 'wild beasts' in an area covered with the bones of men and with the ruins of buildings of every kind. Wild beasts would retreat from the scene of open warfare, destruction and mayhem as best they could.

Ether 10:26 "26 And they did make all manner of tools with which they did work their beasts." Clearly, domesticated animals.

Alma 34:10 "For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice." I'm not aware that Israelites sacrificed wild beasts. They sacrificed beasts from their flocks. Tell me I'm wrong and why, if you can.

Ether 9:34, again. "And it came to pass that the people did follow the course of the beasts, and did devour the carcasses of them which fell by the way, until they had devoured them all. Now when the people saw that they must perish they began to repent of their iniquities and cry unto the Lord."

Once again, Ether 9:31 clearly states that the beasts heading south were their flocks, many of which dropped by the wayside, with a few making it into the Land of Zarahemla. The phrases that ties the identification of the flocks and beasts come from verse 32 and 34. 32 says ". . . there were many of them (referring directly to the flocks mentioned in verse 31) which did perish by the way"; verse 34 says: "the people . . . did devour the carcasses of them which fell by the way". To interpret this any other way smacks of 'wresting the scriptures', in my view.

1 Nephi 18:25 . "And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the @#$ and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men." Notice that use of cow and ox here, and goat and wild goat. This is kind of a mix, but clearly shows that both the goat and the wild goat were both beasts, as were cows and oxen.

2 Nephi 2:15 "And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created . . . " Notice he doesn't differentiate wild beasts of the field from just beasts of the field.

Ripliancum, you're grasping at straws and trying to make the scriptures fit your preconceived ideas. I've already shown why the passages you mention that allegedly described annual migrations, simply does not do that. If you are getting your ideas from Ron Meldrum or Wayne May, this is really poor stuff.
...

Niyr
captain of 100
Posts: 554

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by Niyr »

ripliancum wrote: March 20th, 2017, 12:29 pm The season of war for the lamanites and nephites were spring and summer not winter.
In my opinion its ridiculous to say that buffalo did not occupy the areas of the Great lakes. In the 1870 the settlers were trying to wipe out the buffalo. So the their migratory paths proably extended in the great lakes during Book of Mormon.

Larsen can you mention another animal that could be the migratoring land mammal besides the Buffalo????????

They way you are ripping the buffalo theory sounds like you know of a better idea.
Not true. The planting and harvest season was spring and summer, and into fall. War was for when there was little to no harvest to be had. The scripture I quoted, and a vast majority of war in the Book of Mormon was at the end or beginning of the year.

tapirrider
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Posts: 2

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by tapirrider »

ripliancum wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 12:44 pm Beast refers to wild animals not domesticated sheep or cattle. The Nephites say there were migrating beast there is no reason the Jaredites in time of famine did not follow the buffalo to escape starvation. The Nephites state that the beast migrated north and south for food. Once again south and central America do not have migrating beast.
Read "Buffalo Nation: History and Legend of the North American Bison" by Valerius Geist
and
Bison Exploitation by Late Fort Ancient Peoples in the Central Ohio River Valley
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10. ... -EKR5-9ALP

The bison were not in the Ohio region during Book of Mormon timelines.

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by brianj »

Niyr wrote: March 24th, 2017, 11:50 am
ripliancum wrote: March 20th, 2017, 12:29 pm The season of war for the lamanites and nephites were spring and summer not winter.
In my opinion its ridiculous to say that buffalo did not occupy the areas of the Great lakes. In the 1870 the settlers were trying to wipe out the buffalo. So the their migratory paths proably extended in the great lakes during Book of Mormon.

Larsen can you mention another animal that could be the migratoring land mammal besides the Buffalo????????

They way you are ripping the buffalo theory sounds like you know of a better idea.
Not true. The planting and harvest season was spring and summer, and into fall. War was for when there was little to no harvest to be had. The scripture I quoted, and a vast majority of war in the Book of Mormon was at the end or beginning of the year.
The last time I read the Book of Mormon I didn't find a description of Lamanite farming. Lat summer into autumn would be the ideal time for them to start a war so they could try taking over Nephite farmlands and harvesting for themselves.

clintononthewire
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Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by clintononthewire »

brianj wrote: March 12th, 2017, 11:36 pm There's an uncomfortably high amount of speculation in this "evidence." The one thing that comes the closest to being real evidence is the ditch and wall that allegedly surrounded a Hopewell city, but how big of an obstacle would that ditch and wall have been? A large force approaching in a concentrated group could easily run right over that little wall.
The walls and ditches at Newark, OH, which is not a fortification, were at least 10 feet high and deep more in places depending on how the land undulated underneath them. As to the practicality of building fortification. Patton is quoted as saying that a fixed fortification is a monument to the stupidity of mankind. The nephites had specific policies about building fortifications. They mainly did it when they were outnumbered. There is a passage in the BOM that says the weakest fortifications had the greatest number of men. That makes a lot of sense. The story is anyway that they frequently lost fortifications to the other side. The interesting thing to me is that E.G squire points out that meso-american or mexicans had earth and wood fortresses randomly scattered all over the place. while in the north they only occur north of the Ohio River. Which suggests to my mind that the Ohio is the Sidon. (You might count the Mississippi as being part of the same river since it is just one sheet. And even more juicy in that is that nephites never went on offense such that there is no reason to build fortifications south of the Ohio, if Ohio is the land of bountiful. BTW, meso-american artifacts are found in Hopewell mounds, from sea-shells to marijuana, there are things that came from mexico in hopewell mounds. Clearly the mexicans are different people but the nephites knew and influenced them. The Lamanites out and out mixed with them.

clintononthewire
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Re: Remains of Nephite/Hopewell fortifications

Post by clintononthewire »

ripliancum wrote: March 16th, 2017, 3:30 am Durzan you sound like a anti Mormon or support the meso American model.

Many of the Hopewell walls that remain are after 2000 years of erosion. When settlers arrived they found the Hopewell sites well made fortifications that fit the Book of Mormon perfectly. There are no civilizations found in central or south America that built mound and timber stockades as there main source of defense. There are a few examples but are not typical. For the Hopewell it was there main source of defense and fits the Book of Mormon perfectly.
That is not true. E.G. Squire who wrote the Monuments of the Mississippi Valley and the Monuments of Western New York tells us that they are common throughout the America's. There is a better way to make the argument you are making. (I am squarely a heartlander.) In Mexico and South America they occour randomly all over. In North America they only occur in the Ohio Valley. Which is aligned with the BOM since the nephites had to defend themselves from invasion but the Lamanites didn't. I've been thinking about this a lot here. Clearly the Lamanites did not swim the Ohio river to get into Bountiful or Zarahemla. They had to make a big end run, through the east wilderness, by the sea-shore, to get around the Ohio to get into bountiful. Then had to fight from there. I think every single battle from alma to the coming of Christ can be explained by realizing this. Even later ones where they went straight to Zarahemla and where defeated there, they just left the big fortifications in the arrears and that got them into trouble.

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