Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

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djinwa
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Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by djinwa »

The threads on porn evolve into an argument over who uses porn more, men or women.

But this all assumes the only fantasies and lusts that are of concern are those which involve visual images of sex and nudity.
Why do we ignore other fantasies that are more destructive? Who makes these arbitrary decisions and why?

A few examples. In my early twenties, I was in the home of an LDS friend and went in the basement where they did laundry. Over the washing machine his mom had a photo of Robert Redford.

Later when I was engaged to my future wife, I noticed she had a poster of Tom Selleck hanging in her bedroom.

I remember these things because they left me confused. Didn't understand how an LDS wife, or someone supposedly committed to me, were able to post fantasy photos of other men.

Now I realize why. It is because we are taught that fantasy is fine if it does not involve sex or nudity.

And as I've posted before, in recent years, the only divorces I've seen among relatives involved fantasies and lusts for material things. Wives who were raised in money becoming dissatisfied with the levels of income provided by their husbands. One of them actually had a nice big home built by my cousin who has a construction business, trying to make her happy. But it still didn't meet her expectations.

Despite much questioning, I've been unable to get an answer as to why these wives can tear up families through divorce, taking kids away from their dads, with no shame or disciplinary action. I am given every excuse in the book, even by my brother, a Bishop, who saw his son's life torn apart. Apparently I am too sensitive or something. Or maybe families don't matter as much as I thought. Or perhaps because it is not sexual sin, we shouldn't care.

We can feed our lusts for material things with no limits. We are bombarded constantly with shows with the rich and famous and powerful. We see ads everywhere to buy more and more. Shows with fancy houses, making ours seem inadequate. And of course, millions scour Pinterest daily looking at things they don't have. Can one ever have too much stuff?

The leading cause of divorce is money issues. But who cares?

Then of course there is the lust for gossiping. Sharing the intimate details of one's marriage with others is somehow considered okay. My wife has told me more than I wanted to know about what her church friends have told her about their sex lives. As long as no images are viewed, no problem, right?

Then the lust for romance, fed but by novels and chick flicks. Makes one's marriage seem quite dull.

And we are bombarded with images of food, feeding our appetites, resulting in an obesity epidemic costing us lost lives and trillions of dollars.

Anyway, when Jesus was presented with an adulteress by the scribes and Pharisees, he seemed more concerned with their hyposcrisy than the sin of adultery. And that is the way I see it also. There is something evil about the way we emphasize one kind of sin and minimize the more serious ones that destroy families in greater numbers. Somehow by emphasizing the sins of others, we improve our own image or status, or are using it as a means of control and manipulation to our benefit. So while seeming to care about the sin or the sinner, we actually only care about ourselves.
John Chapter 8
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Fiannan
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Fiannan »

I was speaking to a young Muslim woman today who asked me, "Why don't more people see how the society is controlled? Why do they live in such denial?" I explained to her that to question the dominant constructs of society means you are questioning the foundations of many of your beliefs. In America we are taught to respect our culture (note how the word cult and culture mean the same thing essentially) and in the 1950s Mormon gals wore the same revealing evening gowns that were popular in that era but were very, very geared towards conservative values and family, just as the dominant cult, I mean culture, was. Today America promotes rampant consumerism, disrespect for traditions and seeing people and relationships as interchangeable as the latest furniture trends from those put-it-together mega-stores. Mormons get polluted by this as well. That is why the typical Mormon shudders at marrying and making the size of families that used to be the norm in the 1950s. That is why the average Mormon, in the back of their mind, wonders if they will indeed remain with the partner they got sealed to for the duration of their earthy lives.

JohnnyL
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by JohnnyL »

djinwa wrote: March 5th, 2017, 7:25 am The threads on porn evolve into an argument over who uses porn more, men or women.

But this all assumes the only fantasies and lusts that are of concern are those which involve visual images of sex and nudity.
Why do we ignore other fantasies that are more destructive? Who makes these arbitrary decisions and why?

A few examples. In my early twenties, I was in the home of an LDS friend and went in the basement where they did laundry. Over the washing machine his mom had a photo of Robert Redford.

Later when I was engaged to my future wife, I noticed she had a poster of Tom Selleck hanging in her bedroom.

I remember these things because they left me confused. Didn't understand how an LDS wife, or someone supposedly committed to me, were able to post fantasy photos of other men.

Now I realize why. It is because we are taught that fantasy is fine if it does not involve sex or nudity.

And as I've posted before, in recent years, the only divorces I've seen among relatives involved fantasies and lusts for material things. Wives who were raised in money becoming dissatisfied with the levels of income provided by their husbands. One of them actually had a nice big home built by my cousin who has a construction business, trying to make her happy. But it still didn't meet her expectations.

Despite much questioning, I've been unable to get an answer as to why these wives can tear up families through divorce, taking kids away from their dads, with no shame or disciplinary action. I am given every excuse in the book, even by my brother, a Bishop, who saw his son's life torn apart. Apparently I am too sensitive or something. Or maybe families don't matter as much as I thought. Or perhaps because it is not sexual sin, we shouldn't care.

We can feed our lusts for material things with no limits. We are bombarded constantly with shows with the rich and famous and powerful. We see ads everywhere to buy more and more. Shows with fancy houses, making ours seem inadequate. And of course, millions scour Pinterest daily looking at things they don't have. Can one ever have too much stuff?

The leading cause of divorce is money issues. But who cares?

Then of course there is the lust for gossiping. Sharing the intimate details of one's marriage with others is somehow considered okay. My wife has told me more than I wanted to know about what her church friends have told her about their sex lives. As long as no images are viewed, no problem, right?

Then the lust for romance, fed but by novels and chick flicks. Makes one's marriage seem quite dull.

And we are bombarded with images of food, feeding our appetites, resulting in an obesity epidemic costing us lost lives and trillions of dollars.

Anyway, when Jesus was presented with an adulteress by the scribes and Pharisees, he seemed more concerned with their hyposcrisy than the sin of adultery. And that is the way I see it also. There is something evil about the way we emphasize one kind of sin and minimize the more serious ones that destroy families in greater numbers. Somehow by emphasizing the sins of others, we improve our own image or status, or are using it as a means of control and manipulation to our benefit. So while seeming to care about the sin or the sinner, we actually only care about ourselves.
John Chapter 8
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Wow. This gets my vote as your best post ever, being well thought out and cutting to the heart of the matter of the principles behind culture and sin.

dafty
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by dafty »

JohnnyL wrote: March 5th, 2017, 1:39 pm
djinwa wrote: March 5th, 2017, 7:25 am The threads on porn evolve into an argument over who uses porn more, men or women.

But this all assumes the only fantasies and lusts that are of concern are those which involve visual images of sex and nudity.
Why do we ignore other fantasies that are more destructive? Who makes these arbitrary decisions and why?

A few examples. In my early twenties, I was in the home of an LDS friend and went in the basement where they did laundry. Over the washing machine his mom had a photo of Robert Redford.

Later when I was engaged to my future wife, I noticed she had a poster of Tom Selleck hanging in her bedroom.

I remember these things because they left me confused. Didn't understand how an LDS wife, or someone supposedly committed to me, were able to post fantasy photos of other men.

Now I realize why. It is because we are taught that fantasy is fine if it does not involve sex or nudity.

And as I've posted before, in recent years, the only divorces I've seen among relatives involved fantasies and lusts for material things. Wives who were raised in money becoming dissatisfied with the levels of income provided by their husbands. One of them actually had a nice big home built by my cousin who has a construction business, trying to make her happy. But it still didn't meet her expectations.

Despite much questioning, I've been unable to get an answer as to why these wives can tear up families through divorce, taking kids away from their dads, with no shame or disciplinary action. I am given every excuse in the book, even by my brother, a Bishop, who saw his son's life torn apart. Apparently I am too sensitive or something. Or maybe families don't matter as much as I thought. Or perhaps because it is not sexual sin, we shouldn't care.

We can feed our lusts for material things with no limits. We are bombarded constantly with shows with the rich and famous and powerful. We see ads everywhere to buy more and more. Shows with fancy houses, making ours seem inadequate. And of course, millions scour Pinterest daily looking at things they don't have. Can one ever have too much stuff?

The leading cause of divorce is money issues. But who cares?

Then of course there is the lust for gossiping. Sharing the intimate details of one's marriage with others is somehow considered okay. My wife has told me more than I wanted to know about what her church friends have told her about their sex lives. As long as no images are viewed, no problem, right?

Then the lust for romance, fed but by novels and chick flicks. Makes one's marriage seem quite dull.

And we are bombarded with images of food, feeding our appetites, resulting in an obesity epidemic costing us lost lives and trillions of dollars.

Anyway, when Jesus was presented with an adulteress by the scribes and Pharisees, he seemed more concerned with their hyposcrisy than the sin of adultery. And that is the way I see it also. There is something evil about the way we emphasize one kind of sin and minimize the more serious ones that destroy families in greater numbers. Somehow by emphasizing the sins of others, we improve our own image or status, or are using it as a means of control and manipulation to our benefit. So while seeming to care about the sin or the sinner, we actually only care about ourselves.
John Chapter 8
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Wow. This gets my vote as your best post ever, being well thought out and cutting to the heart of the matter of the principles behind culture and sin.
:ymapplause: :ymapplause: ...if only I had my 'thank you' button :-w

JohnnyL
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Posts: 9831

Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by JohnnyL »

It reminds me of a roommate's friend who was often over. At the end of the semester, he decided to go on a mission. "JohnnyL, I can't hang out with your brother anymore--he says the f word." Well, first, he never hung out with my brother, he hung out with his friend at our house. Second, he and his friend were constantly lusting after and once in a while trying to touch or have some kind of physical relationship with a girl that was often there. I'd leave the room it was so nauseating sometimes. Third, my brother was having a really hard time with life, and I was happy that was the worst of his sins when there could have been so many more. Fourth, based on their situations, my brother was probably more righteous than he was. His not coming around would probably help my brother much more than him, lol. However, I did appreciate that he was taking a look at his life and thinking about how to get better, and the importance of environment.

I thought it was pretty hilarious, but also insightful. LDS culture has kind of ranked the sins, and they don't match up with Christ's culture.

JohnnyL
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by JohnnyL »

So why do women do it? (Not why do they feel it is excusable, or not much of a sin or problem to be taken seriously, etc.)

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Rose Garden
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Rose Garden »

I think you make a good point, djinwa. The scriptures are symbolic. When it says that a man is committing adultery by looking on a woman to lust after her, that is just one example of the real problem. The problem is wanting to use other people to fulfill your own selfish desires. It doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman, it doesn't matter if you want to use them for sex or social status or whatever, if you are doing it you are out of order. You can't find peace or joy in that situation. Both men and women are capable of turning to Christ and overcoming those tendencies. Those who do not and who justify hurtful actions when others don't live up to their expectations will find at some point that they were out of line and not in accordance with the Lord's will. It is best here and now to ask the Lord if you are guilty of those things and seek to clear them out of your life. Otherwise, you face the possibility of acute disappointment after this life and a lot of heartache and sorrow in this life.

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Sarah
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Sarah »

Meili wrote: March 11th, 2017, 8:34 pm I think you make a good point, djinwa. The scriptures are symbolic. When it says that a man is committing adultery by looking on a woman to lust after her, that is just one example of the real problem. The problem is wanting to use other people to fulfill your own selfish desires. It doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman, it doesn't matter if you want to use them for sex or social status or whatever, if you are doing it you are out of order. You can't find peace or joy in that situation. Both men and women are capable of turning to Christ and overcoming those tendencies. Those who do not and who justify hurtful actions when others don't live up to their expectations will find at some point that they were out of line and not in accordance with the Lord's will. It is best here and now to ask the Lord if you are guilty of those things and seek to clear them out of your life. Otherwise, you face the possibility of acute disappointment after this life and a lot of heartache and sorrow in this life.
Great way to sum up the problem. Selfishness is the sin, but defining what is selfish in marriage is sometimes difficult for people to do.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Rose Garden »

Sarah wrote: March 13th, 2017, 12:10 pm
Meili wrote: March 11th, 2017, 8:34 pm I think you make a good point, djinwa. The scriptures are symbolic. When it says that a man is committing adultery by looking on a woman to lust after her, that is just one example of the real problem. The problem is wanting to use other people to fulfill your own selfish desires. It doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman, it doesn't matter if you want to use them for sex or social status or whatever, if you are doing it you are out of order. You can't find peace or joy in that situation. Both men and women are capable of turning to Christ and overcoming those tendencies. Those who do not and who justify hurtful actions when others don't live up to their expectations will find at some point that they were out of line and not in accordance with the Lord's will. It is best here and now to ask the Lord if you are guilty of those things and seek to clear them out of your life. Otherwise, you face the possibility of acute disappointment after this life and a lot of heartache and sorrow in this life.
Great way to sum up the problem. Selfishness is the sin, but defining what is selfish in marriage is sometimes difficult for people to do.
Yes, it sure can be. We have obligations toward each other and it can be so difficult to know where the lines are.

My current understanding is to view my own responsibilities as personal obligations and other's responsibilities as their privilege. If others have the "privilege" to fulfill responsibilities but not the obligation then I don't get all tied up in knots when they drop the ball. The secret to maintaining that mentality is trust in the Lord. I trust him to ultimately provide for me so I can let others off the hook when they fall short.

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Sarah
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Sarah »

Meili wrote: March 13th, 2017, 2:47 pm
Sarah wrote: March 13th, 2017, 12:10 pm
Meili wrote: March 11th, 2017, 8:34 pm I think you make a good point, djinwa. The scriptures are symbolic. When it says that a man is committing adultery by looking on a woman to lust after her, that is just one example of the real problem. The problem is wanting to use other people to fulfill your own selfish desires. It doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman, it doesn't matter if you want to use them for sex or social status or whatever, if you are doing it you are out of order. You can't find peace or joy in that situation. Both men and women are capable of turning to Christ and overcoming those tendencies. Those who do not and who justify hurtful actions when others don't live up to their expectations will find at some point that they were out of line and not in accordance with the Lord's will. It is best here and now to ask the Lord if you are guilty of those things and seek to clear them out of your life. Otherwise, you face the possibility of acute disappointment after this life and a lot of heartache and sorrow in this life.
Great way to sum up the problem. Selfishness is the sin, but defining what is selfish in marriage is sometimes difficult for people to do.
Yes, it sure can be. We have obligations toward each other and it can be so difficult to know where the lines are.

My current understanding is to view my own responsibilities as personal obligations and other's responsibilities as their privilege. If others have the "privilege" to fulfill responsibilities but not the obligation then I don't get all tied up in knots when they drop the ball. The secret to maintaining that mentality is trust in the Lord. I trust him to ultimately provide for me so I can let others off the hook when they fall short.
That's a good way to look at it.

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Rumpelstiltskin
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Pornography, no matter how its presented, is wrong. It can be written or in photos or video. It can be partially clad men or women, or fully nude. No matter the form it takes or how mild or hardcore, it is wrong. Anything that incites a person to lust after another person is wrong. Elder Oaks once told women that if they dress immodestly, they would become walking pornography to men. That offended many women, but the truth is the truth. The same applies to men. When I was sealed to my wife, the man sealing us talked about the problem of pornography. He said that as much as 85% of men and boys in the church have a problem with it. Another stat he didn't mention was that about 28% of the women also have a problem. Another interesting stat is that women into pornography are 2 1/2 times more likely to commit adultery than men. No matter what or who, pornography will destroy lives and families.

Fiannan
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Fiannan »

Another interesting stat is that women into pornography are 2 1/2 times more likely to commit adultery than men.
I do not doubt this but do you have a reference on this?

I wonder though, isn't the act of coveting the most crucial factor that ties a person coveting another person's house, or income or body? Just throwing this out for consideration here but might there be a difference between someone looking at a pornographic picture and experiencing a hormonal rush and someone looking at it and wishing they had that man or woman for themselves?

JohnnyL
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by JohnnyL »

I doubt that 85% of men in the church have problems with pornography, or anything near that. This has been said many times on these threads. Any references?

OOOK?
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by OOOK? »

I thought gossiping about their sex lives was a man's issue. I did not realize women do it too. I had the misfortune to have the area under my apartment used as an office by construction workers as they did some remodeling and building in the immediate area. I told them I could hear them , but every morning the gossip about their lives and wives and the raucous laughter was disturbing. And at least a couple of them were LDS. It just made me assume that all men gossip about their sex lives when they are together. I am a woman, but no one has ever gossiped about their husbands and such with me. Perhaps because I am not very social and do not really encourage intimate conversation and perhaps because I am not married.

I also wonder if the women wanting a higher income is worse in Utah than elsewhere. I have lived in different states and while there are those who place income and status as a priority it is not the majority. I don't know many who would leave their husband over income. That said,there are definitely some who would. It is obvious to me from just a few conversations who these "high maintenance" women are and if men are dating them it should be just as obvious long before marriage is discussed. Some men just go for that type of woman. I often wonder why so many men date and marry women who are more interested in looks, money, prestige... only to be disappointed in the long run when their are amazing women with their priorities in the right places who are single. Perhaps part of the problem is that we do not date properly. We should actually get to know each other, talking and asking important questions rather than go to movies and dances where talking is not going to happen.

As far as destructive fantasies, I think one of the reasons I have not married is because I am waiting for a TARDIS so I can travel time and space. I do not need a Time Lord or Lady, just their TARDIS...

Fiannan
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Fiannan »

JohnnyL wrote: March 14th, 2017, 7:40 am I doubt that 85% of men in the church have problems with pornography, or anything near that. This has been said many times on these threads. Any references?
I doubt it as well. Of course one could come up with numbers like this if you define any viewing of pornographic material as having a problem. Naturally when we hear "problem" we think of someone hiding away in the basement or closet every chance they get and viewing porn. In reality such people are rare.

brianj
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by brianj »

OOOK? wrote: March 14th, 2017, 6:02 pm I also wonder if the women wanting a higher income is worse in Utah than elsewhere. I have lived in different states and while there are those who place income and status as a priority it is not the majority. I don't know many who would leave their husband over income. That said,there are definitely some who would. It is obvious to me from just a few conversations who these "high maintenance" women are and if men are dating them it should be just as obvious long before marriage is discussed. Some men just go for that type of woman. I often wonder why so many men date and marry women who are more interested in looks, money, prestige... only to be disappointed in the long run when their are amazing women with their priorities in the right places who are single. Perhaps part of the problem is that we do not date properly. We should actually get to know each other, talking and asking important questions rather than go to movies and dances where talking is not going to happen.

As far as destructive fantasies, I think one of the reasons I have not married is because I am waiting for a TARDIS so I can travel time and space. I do not need a Time Lord or Lady, just their TARDIS...
I would hope that women trying to trade up is not as bad in Utah as it is elsewhere. But if this problem infects even just 2% of active female church members then the higher concentration of church members in Utah means that more women in Utah will leave their husbands over money than women elsewhere. But I have observed this phenomena much more frequently outside active church membership than among active members.

Regarding why men would get involved with high maintenance women, many women are chameleons and many more have no idea what they want or how accustomed to wealth they are. I will offer myself up as an example since I married an active LDS woman who later divorced me because I wasn't providing as much money as she decided she needed.

When we got together she was in a bad situation with a toxic mother. She played the role of a loving and devoted girlfriend, but there were plenty of red flags I didn't notice. Years later she confronted me with a wicked grin on her face and said that she didn't love me when we were dating or first married, and that she only married me so I would take her away from her mother. She was also accustomed to an affluent lifestyle, and when we first married and both working to provide a small apartment she would incessantly complain about her job, having to work, and how upset she was about the things she couldn't afford. Before we were married she would occasionally complain about her job but not incessantly and didn't whine about the other things. She even said that she was fine with us not having a lot of money and she didn't care about money. With my modern perspective I think of a line from the 2004 movie The Aviator. Howard Hughes (played by Leo DiCaprio) is at somebody's mansion for dinner and that person says, "We don't care about money." Hughes irritably replies, "That's because you've always had it." My ex wife was the same way: she didn't care about money. She didn't care that we would be living in a one bedroom, 300 square foot apartment. She didn't care that she would have to live an austere lifestyle. But when she got into that situation she quickly started caring. She didn't act like a high maintenance woman. She didn't have a problem going to cheap restaurants for date night, with a single rose instead of a bouquet, or a $10 Christmas gift when we were engaged or for the first couple months of our marriage. But she didn't take long to become really dissatisfied!

I don't know when or if I will be ready for another relationship, but if I do look for a new spouse I will have the following expectations:
Active church member
Regular temple attendance
Attractive to me
Large, close knit LDS family
Didn't cheat on her first husband (if divorced)
Accustomed to a cheaper lifestyle than I can provide from childhood through adulthood
I don't know how realistic this is, but I would like someone young enough and willing to have at least one more child. I'm 48 so that means marrying someone a decade or more younger than me. Since most LDS couples I know have an age difference of less than five years so again I don't know if this is a realistic desire, therefore it's not a deal breaker.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Rose Garden »

Many women have babies in their 40's. You might be able to find someone a bit closer to your age.

Fiannan
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Fiannan »

Meili wrote: March 17th, 2017, 8:13 am Many women have babies in their 40's. You might be able to find someone a bit closer to your age.
Why? If there is a surplus of LDS single women in their 20s or early 30s then why not concentrate there?

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Rose Garden
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Rose Garden »

Fiannan wrote: March 17th, 2017, 8:49 am
Meili wrote: March 17th, 2017, 8:13 am Many women have babies in their 40's. You might be able to find someone a bit closer to your age.
Why? If there is a surplus of LDS single women in their 20s or early 30s then why not concentrate there?
It seemed to me that he wanted someone closer to his own age. But of course, if he wants a younger woman and one is willing to have him, then there's no reason why he shouldn't marry someone younger.

JohnnyL
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by JohnnyL »

I was discussing things with my wife today. She didn't--couldn't--believe that men were more emotional/ felt more deeply than women. She felt it was ok to excommunicate men over porn, but not women over husbands being boring. She was upset over that last one. And I think that is the answer. If that were implemented in the church, women would leave in droves.

brianj
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Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by brianj »

Fiannan wrote: March 17th, 2017, 8:49 am
Meili wrote: March 17th, 2017, 8:13 am Many women have babies in their 40's. You might be able to find someone a bit closer to your age.
Why? If there is a surplus of LDS single women in their 20s or early 30s then why not concentrate there?
Why? The first part of the answer is science.
Pregnancy after 35 is generally considered a high risk pregnancy. Sharply increased risks include gestational diabetes, high blood pressure, spontaneous abortion (the medical term for what most call miscarriage), low birth weight, premature birth, pregnancy related complications such as placenta previa, need for caesarean section instead of normal birth, and chromosomal abnormalities in the child - among many others. These risks increase even more after the mother hits 40.

If all I cared about was a child, I could have one by marrying a willing woman in her mid-60s. Hormone therapy has been used to restart the menstrual cycle in postmenopausal women and allow them to get pregnant, but what does that do to the health of the mother? And how easily is a woman in her 70s going (or even her late 50s) going to handle a difficult teenager?

The end of my above comments touch upon the second reason why I would like to look for a woman about 10 years younger. There is a significant difference in stamina and vitality for both men and women between 35 and 45. And there's also a big difference between 55 and 65. I have put a lot of thought into this issue and I am still not confident if it is right for me to have another child. If I am able to marry within a year of my divorce being finalized and pregnancy follows quickly, I will hit 70 when the child is on a mission (assuming society lasts that long). I will also have to save up a lot more money to provide for a wife much longer after I retire. And personal insecurities come into play, specifically the fear that after I died she would eventually marry someone else then decide she would rather be sealed to him.

In the end it's a matter for prayer. If a 30 year old woman were willing to seriously date me I would take her out. If I can only get dates with women within five years of my age then they are who I will date. I will do my best to follow the spirit in deciding whom to marry and choosing to have children or not.

Fiannan
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Posts: 12983

Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Fiannan »

If I am able to marry within a year of my divorce being finalized and pregnancy follows quickly, I will hit 70 when the child is on a mission (assuming society lasts that long).
Barron Trump is under ten, isn't he and Donald Trump is 70.

A lot of course depends on what a person's outlook on life is. I have known 60 year old men who do things like surfing, climbing, running, mountain biking, etc. I also know 30 year old men who are couch potatoes. I suspect that many of the 30 year old men like that will die about the same time as the now 60 guys who stay active. Besides, even if that were not the case our eternal ages are what count. You might meat a 21 year old gal who is older than you by millions of years. You won't know until you are on the other side of course.

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Sarah
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Posts: 6705

Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Sarah »

JohnnyL wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 9:27 am I was discussing things with my wife today. She didn't--couldn't--believe that men were more emotional/ felt more deeply than women. She felt it was ok to excommunicate men over porn, but not women over husbands being boring. She was upset over that last one. And I think that is the answer. If that were implemented in the church, women would leave in droves.
LOL, yes, I can see it now, an announcement that if a woman is not having sex with her husband at least one a month, she will be excommunicated. Johnny, I don't mean to pick on you. I really want to help you if I can. But in a previous comment you mentioned that your wife had to be humbled into having sex with you. Does that sound like a good thing? You might as well tie her up and have your way with her, because that's probably what she feels like anyway when she has sex with you. If you threaten to leave her over it, you're basically making her feel like she has to give you her body in order to have the benefit of a father for her children. Does that sound like a good thing? Obviously I don't know the details of your relationship or situation, I'm just trying to respond to what I see from your comments.

Try looking at things for how they are. You entered marriage with an expectation that sex and attracting your wife would be easy. Winning the full trust and affection of your wife was not meant to be easy, because that is how you are going to learn what true love really is. The commandment is no sexual relations with anyone or anything other than your wife, and for you both to multiply. You are not commanded to have regular sex. The Law of Chastity is more cut and dry and spiritually serious than how many children are attempted at conceiving, so this is an acceptable expectation in marriage - fidelity, and that children will be attempted at. With the commandment to multiply, and most women's desire to have children, at least that gives you sex during your marriage a few times. I know that is not what you expected out of marriage, but that is where the problem is, despite thinking that boredom is your wife's problem. Your wife might even think that her boredom with you is the problem, but it is your expectations and the way you are projecting that onto her that are really turning her off, and the pressure she feels to give and receive something that she cannot appreciate.

Here is how you can become not boring - Come up to her and tell her that you realize that you have been putting pressure on her to have sex/be intimate with you, and that you don't want her to feel pressured anymore. You want her to only do it if she wants to, and not feel ashamed or guilty about not wanting to be close to you. You then need to reassure her of that every time you give her any kind of physical affection. Start treating her like you did when you were dating with no expectations of anything physical, but get close enough that she will start to want that closeness. Take up a hobby together etc. That is how you can stop being boring.

When you finally do have sex, you need to focus on giving her that gift. This is not about you, but your focus should be giving a good gift that she can appreciate and not on receiving from her. If she cannot appreciate what you are doing, then you need to figure out what she does appreciate and love her that way. Love is about giving gifts that someone will appreciate. And sex is not a gift meant for one person to just give another. It should only happen if both can appreciate or "receive" it.

JohnnyL
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Posts: 9831

Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by JohnnyL »

Sarah wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 1:55 pm
JohnnyL wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 9:27 am I was discussing things with my wife today. She didn't--couldn't--believe that men were more emotional/ felt more deeply than women. She felt it was ok to excommunicate men over porn, but not women over husbands being boring. She was upset over that last one. And I think that is the answer. If that were implemented in the church, women would leave in droves.
LOL, yes, I can see it now, an announcement that if a woman is not having sex with her husband at least one a month, she will be excommunicated. Johnny, I don't mean to pick on you. I really want to help you if I can. But in a previous comment you mentioned that your wife had to be humbled into having sex with you. Does that sound like a good thing? You might as well tie her up and have your way with her, because that's probably what she feels like anyway when she has sex with you. If you threaten to leave her over it, you're basically making her feel like she has to give you her body in order to have the benefit of a father for her children. Does that sound like a good thing? Obviously I don't know the details of your relationship or situation, I'm just trying to respond to what I see from your comments.

Try looking at things for how they are. You entered marriage with an expectation that sex and attracting your wife would be easy. Winning the full trust and affection of your wife was not meant to be easy, because that is how you are going to learn what true love really is. The commandment is no sexual relations with anyone or anything other than your wife, and for you both to multiply. You are not commanded to have regular sex. The Law of Chastity is more cut and dry and spiritually serious than how many children are attempted at conceiving, so this is an acceptable expectation in marriage - fidelity, and that children will be attempted at. With the commandment to multiply, and most women's desire to have children, at least that gives you sex during your marriage a few times. I know that is not what you expected out of marriage, but that is where the problem is, despite thinking that boredom is your wife's problem. Your wife might even think that her boredom with you is the problem, but it is your expectations and the way you are projecting that onto her that are really turning her off, and the pressure she feels to give and receive something that she cannot appreciate.

Here is how you can become not boring - Come up to her and tell her that you realize that you have been putting pressure on her to have sex/be intimate with you, and that you don't want her to feel pressured anymore. You want her to only do it if she wants to, and not feel ashamed or guilty about not wanting to be close to you. You then need to reassure her of that every time you give her any kind of physical affection. Start treating her like you did when you were dating with no expectations of anything physical, but get close enough that she will start to want that closeness. Take up a hobby together etc. That is how you can stop being boring.

When you finally do have sex, you need to focus on giving her that gift. This is not about you, but your focus should be giving a good gift that she can appreciate and not on receiving from her. If she cannot appreciate what you are doing, then you need to figure out what she does appreciate and love her that way. Love is about giving gifts that someone will appreciate. And sex is not a gift meant for one person to just give another. It should only happen if both can appreciate or "receive" it.
Wow. I have no idea where the sex stuff came from.

Boring=divorcing your husband because you are bored with marriage/ because he is boring.

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Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6705

Re: Destructive fantasies and hypocrisy

Post by Sarah »

JohnnyL wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 2:47 pm
Sarah wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 1:55 pm
JohnnyL wrote: March 23rd, 2017, 9:27 am I was discussing things with my wife today. She didn't--couldn't--believe that men were more emotional/ felt more deeply than women. She felt it was ok to excommunicate men over porn, but not women over husbands being boring. She was upset over that last one. And I think that is the answer. If that were implemented in the church, women would leave in droves.
LOL, yes, I can see it now, an announcement that if a woman is not having sex with her husband at least one a month, she will be excommunicated. Johnny, I don't mean to pick on you. I really want to help you if I can. But in a previous comment you mentioned that your wife had to be humbled into having sex with you. Does that sound like a good thing? You might as well tie her up and have your way with her, because that's probably what she feels like anyway when she has sex with you. If you threaten to leave her over it, you're basically making her feel like she has to give you her body in order to have the benefit of a father for her children. Does that sound like a good thing? Obviously I don't know the details of your relationship or situation, I'm just trying to respond to what I see from your comments.

Try looking at things for how they are. You entered marriage with an expectation that sex and attracting your wife would be easy. Winning the full trust and affection of your wife was not meant to be easy, because that is how you are going to learn what true love really is. The commandment is no sexual relations with anyone or anything other than your wife, and for you both to multiply. You are not commanded to have regular sex. The Law of Chastity is more cut and dry and spiritually serious than how many children are attempted at conceiving, so this is an acceptable expectation in marriage - fidelity, and that children will be attempted at. With the commandment to multiply, and most women's desire to have children, at least that gives you sex during your marriage a few times. I know that is not what you expected out of marriage, but that is where the problem is, despite thinking that boredom is your wife's problem. Your wife might even think that her boredom with you is the problem, but it is your expectations and the way you are projecting that onto her that are really turning her off, and the pressure she feels to give and receive something that she cannot appreciate.

Here is how you can become not boring - Come up to her and tell her that you realize that you have been putting pressure on her to have sex/be intimate with you, and that you don't want her to feel pressured anymore. You want her to only do it if she wants to, and not feel ashamed or guilty about not wanting to be close to you. You then need to reassure her of that every time you give her any kind of physical affection. Start treating her like you did when you were dating with no expectations of anything physical, but get close enough that she will start to want that closeness. Take up a hobby together etc. That is how you can stop being boring.

When you finally do have sex, you need to focus on giving her that gift. This is not about you, but your focus should be giving a good gift that she can appreciate and not on receiving from her. If she cannot appreciate what you are doing, then you need to figure out what she does appreciate and love her that way. Love is about giving gifts that someone will appreciate. And sex is not a gift meant for one person to just give another. It should only happen if both can appreciate or "receive" it.
Wow. I have no idea where the sex stuff came from.

Boring=divorcing your husband because you are bored with marriage/ because he is boring.
Well, I apologize for misinterpreting your posts. You're saying a woman should be excommunicated for divorcing her husband for anything other than adultery or perhaps abuse. I agree that if a wife is breaking her covenant for selfish reasons, if not disciplined by the church, she will be held accountable for those choices at some point by God. I agree with condemning that.

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