Caffeine ok, but still no coffee or tea?

[ithink]

Anyone got an explanation for this? Strictly interpreted, hot herbal tea is on par with regular tea. ???

[brianj]

I don't think I've ever heard anything authoritative on herbal tea, but most church members I know (and most Bishops I have known) don't consider herbal tea a violation of the Word of Wisdom.

Your question suggests that caffeine is why coffee and tea are prohibited. Though I know that teaching was popular in the mid-80s, there is no basis for this assumption. And the fact that church leaders have said caffeine isn't specifically prohibited by the Word of Wisdom doesn't mean that it is okay. We need to decide for ourselves if it is okay. There's nothing wrong with breathing nitrous oxide when you are in a dental chair but I think most of us can agree that it is not right to use N2O recreationally. Remember that it is a slothful servant that must be commanded in all things.

[creator]

Anyone got an explanation for this? Strictly interpreted, hot herbal tea is on par with regular tea. ???

This seems to be an acceptable explanation:

Hyrum Smith wrote: “And again, ‘hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;’ there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee.” (“The Word of Wisdom,” Times and Seasons, 1 June 1842, p. 800.)

The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said ‘hot drinks’ in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. …

“Tea and coffee … are what the Lord meant when He said ‘hot drinks.’” (In Joel H. Johnson, Voice from the Mountains [Salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 12.)


Also, "herbal tea" is not even actually "tea" unless it comes from the tea plant.

[Join us]

Anyone got an explanation for this? Strictly interpreted, hot herbal tea is on par with regular tea. ???

No explanation, but both are delicious!

[AI2.0]

Anyone got an explanation for this? Strictly interpreted, hot herbal tea is on par with regular tea. ???

I"m not sure exactly what you are asking, but I think you could answer your own question if you understood the difference between herbal tea and 'regular' or black tea. There are toxins and caffeine in black tea and there are none in herbal tea. No caffeine (if that's what you are worried about) and no tannins. Herbal tea is considered healthy and safe to drink, even by little children. If you pour hot water over mint leaves and let it steep a bit, that's a form of herbal tea. Completely safe and will even settle an upset stomach.

So, the naswer is no; hot or cold herbal tea is not on par with regular tea, it's a completely different product. And, if you are wondering if the early Saints understood this? Yes, they knew that the prohibition was for black tea.

[brianj]

And, if you are wondering if the early Saints understood this? Yes, they knew that the prohibition was for black tea.

Thank you for teaching me something I never knew! If it's not a chore, would you provide me with a reference?

[gclayjr]

iThink,

I have often been asked by non LDS friends if there is a prohibition on caffeine. I tell them no. We have a prohibition on "Hot Drinks" which has been interpreted to be Coffee and Tea (not Herbal tea). It is simply a matter of faith.

The reason we don't use tobacco, is a matter of faith. When the Word of Wisdom came out, we knew nothing about nicotine or lung cancer. Now over the years, we have discovered many health risks related to the use of tobacco, and many people often say "That must be why God told us not to use it". maybe, but the real reason we don't use it is a matter of faith, not that scientists have told us that it is not healthy (although it is nice to see science catch up with faith). The same is true with alcohol. There are many scientifically discovered health problems with alcohol, but that is not why we don't use alcohol.

Science has been less conclusive as to problems with Tea and Coffee. The scientific evidence is not as definitive with tea and coffee as with tobacco, and alcohol, but the reason we don't drink Tea and Coffee, is the same is the REAL reason we don't smoke, or drink alcohol...

It is a matter of faith.

If science eventually shows good supporting reasons for not drinking Tea or Coffee, great, but that woud still not be the reason to not do it.

Regards,

George Clay

[creator]

And, if you are wondering if the early Saints understood this? Yes, they knew that the prohibition was for black tea.

Thank you for teaching me something I never knew! If it's not a chore, would you provide me with a reference?

Quotes from Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith were provided above. They clarified that "hot drinks" was a prohibition on coffee and tea.

Herbal teas and fruit teas should not be confused with true teas (black, green, white, yellow, oolong, etc., which are prepared from the cured leaves of the tea plant, Camellia sinensis) (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbal_and_fruit_teas ). That was also the most common understanding of tea at the time the Word of Wisdom was given.

[Sirocco]

I have never known a greater vice in life.
People are so hung up on pornography but tea, that is something I would truly feel great sadness if I had to lose it :))

[creator]

I would never say tea is a vice, nor would I call it "bad", but I do understand why it's mentioned in the WoW. I have occasionally had iced tea. There was a time I drank it a bit too frequently and then noticed it's actually addictive (black/green tea). After recognizing it through my own experience I then understood the wisdom in not drinking it.

[Sirocco]

I would never say tea is a vice, nor would I call it "bad", but I do understand why it's mentioned in the WoW. I have occasionally had iced tea. There was a time I drank it a bit too frequently and then noticed it's actually addictive (black/green tea). After recognizing it through my own experience I then understood the wisdom in not drinking it.

Oh it's addictive, soon you find yourself with a whole cupboard of the stuff and you're taking it to work and brag how far away it comes.
It's a slippery slope. :))

[AI2.0]

And, if you are wondering if the early Saints understood this? Yes, they knew that the prohibition was for black tea.

Thank you for teaching me something I never knew! If it's not a chore, would you provide me with a reference?

Here is another reference you might find interesting, the tea the people drank was imported and came from china--it is known as black tea:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/Hot_drinks

As was said earlier, trying to come up with reasons why we are told not to drink black tea is fine, but the fact is, it's a matter of faith. We don't drink it because we were given the word of wisdom.

[Older/wiser?]

The "Word of Wisdom" , is just that is took how many years till our research caught up with he Lord's admonition not to use tobacco , a few years ago I watched a report on the man that did the study on the health benefits of a glass of red wine once a day, they discovered he fabricated the data for research grants. I drank Coke because I had a coke machine in my restaurant and it was free, not because I liked the taste, I would leave and travel on weekends , couldn't figure out why I got such splitting headaches , no Tylenol, or Excedrin would make a dent in it. (Didn't drink coke once I left) . Takes me a bit, but then the light went on , Coke withdrawals . I won't touch the stuff now. I am aware that the Word of Wisdom is a good health spiritual, as well as temporal guidline. It doesn't need to specify all the things that aren't good for us (we have so many more choices for over indulgence). Someone always makes a buck on our weakness. I still don't live it perfectly, chocolate, that's a hard one. I can live it in avoiding obvious poor health choices , it seems more about carring for the spiritual tabernacle, so I follow it with my" knowledge " to the best of my ability.

[Obrien]

iThink,

I have often been asked by non LDS friends if there is a prohibition on caffeine. I tell them no. We have a prohibition on "Hot Drinks" which has been interpreted to be Coffee and Tea (not Herbal tea). It is simply a matter of faith.

The reason we don't use tobacco, is a matter of faith. When the Word of Wisdom came out, we knew nothing about nicotine or lung cancer. Now over the years, we have discovered many health risks related to the use of tobacco, and many people often say "That must be why God told us not to use it". maybe, but the real reason we don't use it is a matter of faith, not that scientists have told us that it is not healthy (although it is nice to see science catch up with faith). The same is true with alcohol. There are many scientifically discovered health problems with alcohol, but that is not why we don't use alcohol.

Science has been less conclusive as to problems with Tea and Coffee. The scientific evidence is not as definitive with tea and coffee as with tobacco, and alcohol, but the reason we don't drink Tea and Coffee, is the same is the REAL reason we don't smoke, or drink alcohol...

It is a matter of faith.

If science eventually shows good supporting reasons for not drinking Tea or Coffee, great, but that woud still not be the reason to not do it.

Regards,

George Clay

George - we had a discussion started a couple of weeks ago, but I think I dropped the ball on that one. Sorry. I think it was when you mentioned you were a retired Marine. You can go re-start it, if you'd like.

As far as the tea, coffee, tobacco, alcohol etc goes, you state above that not taking them is a matter of faith. The WoW, as it came from the Lord, was not a commandment, but friendly advice. If you choose to read the WoW as a commandment, how do you square it with DC 59? In this section, the Lord reiterates the basic carnal commandments, then states that He has given us all things for our use, to be used with judgement, prudence and thanksgiving. If I were to enjoy a cold beer, with the proper gratitude, would I be sinning? Please read DC 59 before you answer.

Thanks - Obrien

[eddie]

I use de-caff in my Irish Coffee!

[Obrien]

Anyone got an explanation for this? Strictly interpreted, hot herbal tea is on par with regular tea. ???

This seems to be an acceptable explanation:

Hyrum Smith wrote: “And again, ‘hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;’ there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee.” (“The Word of Wisdom,” Times and Seasons, 1 June 1842, p. 800.)

The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said ‘hot drinks’ in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. …

“Tea and coffee … are what the Lord meant when He said ‘hot drinks.’” (In Joel H. Johnson, Voice from the Mountains [Salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 12.)


Also, "herbal tea" is not even actually "tea" unless it comes from the tea plant.

Not to derail, oh Great Creator of the Forum, but where did the ability to thank you, or any of your other house guests, go? The less active on the forum may have missed why this change has been made. Please advise.

[Lizzy60]

Obrien, there were some technical issues, and Brian is working to get the "thanks" feature back again.

[ithink]

Anyone got an explanation for this? Strictly interpreted, hot herbal tea is on par with regular tea. ???

This seems to be an acceptable explanation:

Hyrum Smith wrote: “And again, ‘hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;’ there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee.” (“The Word of Wisdom,” Times and Seasons, 1 June 1842, p. 800.)

The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said ‘hot drinks’ in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. …

“Tea and coffee … are what the Lord meant when He said ‘hot drinks.’” (In Joel H. Johnson, Voice from the Mountains [Salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 12.)


Also, "herbal tea" is not even actually "tea" unless it comes from the tea plant.

Hyrum said "tea".

A Ferrari is a sports car, and it is a car. A sedan is a car. A station wagon is a car. ie. all sports cars are cars.
Herbal tea is a tea, black, green, white, yellow, oolong are all teas of course.

If all of a kind have been prohibited, how can anyone justify permitting a subset of the prohibited parent set?

I know you referenced Hyrum, and you referenced the fact that those were what was understood at that time, but today we know so much more and yet the perpetual reference is all the way back to Hyrum Smith? Really?

[ithink]

iThink,

I have often been asked by non LDS friends if there is a prohibition on caffeine. I tell them no. We have a prohibition on "Hot Drinks" which has been interpreted to be Coffee and Tea (not Herbal tea). It is simply a matter of faith.

The reason we don't use tobacco, is a matter of faith. When the Word of Wisdom came out, we knew nothing about nicotine or lung cancer. Now over the years, we have discovered many health risks related to the use of tobacco, and many people often say "That must be why God told us not to use it". maybe, but the real reason we don't use it is a matter of faith, not that scientists have told us that it is not healthy (although it is nice to see science catch up with faith). The same is true with alcohol. There are many scientifically discovered health problems with alcohol, but that is not why we don't use alcohol.

Science has been less conclusive as to problems with Tea and Coffee. The scientific evidence is not as definitive with tea and coffee as with tobacco, and alcohol, but the reason we don't drink Tea and Coffee, is the same is the REAL reason we don't smoke, or drink alcohol...

It is a matter of faith.

If science eventually shows good supporting reasons for not drinking Tea or Coffee, great, but that woud still not be the reason to not do it.

Regards,

George Clay

Hi George. If you're looking for problems because that is your mindset from the start, and can't find them, then that is your problem. Coffee has been studied at lenght, and the usual conclusion is that coffee drinkers LIVE LONGER. "Several massive studies have now shown that the people who drink the most coffee live longer and have a reduced risk of diseases like Alzheimer’s and diabetes." https://authoritynutrition.com/how-coff ... ve-longer/

Hmmmm....

Alzheimer reduced by coffee drinking? Maybe that is why Utah has a problem with Alzheimers.

http://www.good4utah.com/news/local-new ... /415041575

[gclayjr]

iThink,

Hi George. If you're looking for problems because that is your mindset from the start, and can't find them, then that is your problem. Coffee has been studied at lenght, and the usual conclusion is that coffee drinkers LIVE LONGER. "Several massive studies have now shown that the people who drink the most coffee live longer and have a reduced risk of diseases like Alzheimer’s and diabetes."

I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. My point was that it was a matter of FAITH. If we can see scientific correlation all the better, but we do it as an act of faith because we believe in keeping our commitments to God, and as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we have promised to live the word of wisdom which means... Don't drink coffee!

Regards,

George Clay