Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

I'm just going by what research has shown. The research has shown that North American Native Americans have dna that originates in the middle east.

That can't be said for central and south American indigenous tribes.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of the eastern shore of North America] with like countenances with the Hebrew race; and their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in Duke’s place, or Barry Street, in London, when he sees them.”
(Murray 1908)

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by brianj »

ripliancum wrote: March 18th, 2017, 11:43 pm I'm just going by what research has shown. The research has shown that North American Native Americans have dna that originates in the middle east.

That can't be said for central and south American indigenous tribes.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of the eastern shore of North America] with like countenances with the Hebrew race; and their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in Duke’s place, or Barry Street, in London, when he sees them.”
(Murray 1908)
I wonder how much of that Eurasian DNA can be traced to early European settlers. There was a lot more intermixing than you were taught in high school history classes. You may remember learning about the "mystery" of the lost Roanoke colony. That is only a mystery for people who don't have the available evidence or are incompetent detectives. The European influence on the natives, the native influence on the Europeans (especially personal cleanliness), and the fact that some colonies had to set guards to prevent people from joining local native groups all strongly suggest that the colonists joined natives when things got tough.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

The middle east dna predates European arrival Kennwick man has middle east dna. Scientist say it arrived in America around 12000BC but there is no genetic pathway from the Middle east to North America. The middle east native American dna marker is not found in Asia or Siberia. According to scientist theory middle east people migrated from temperate climates to the arctic wastelands of Siberia then to North America. There is no dna evidence of this suppose migration. What book of Mormon critics said about dna problems that exist for meso america is the same problem this make believe theory has. DNA markers are missing in all they key areas nor does a theory of migrating to sub arctic wastelands make sense.

Besides if you believe that human begin with Adam and Eve there is no way a 12000BC timeline could be correct.

User avatar
AI2.0
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3917

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by AI2.0 »

ripliancum wrote: March 18th, 2017, 11:43 pm I'm just going by what research has shown. The research has shown that North American Native Americans have dna that originates in the middle east.

That can't be said for central and south American indigenous tribes.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of the eastern shore of North America] with like countenances with the Hebrew race; and their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in Duke’s place, or Barry Street, in London, when he sees them.”
(Murray 1908)
Regardless of whether or not YOU think the peoples of Mexico, Central and South America are descendants of Lehi, the church recognizes them and prophecies have been stated and are being fulfilled today.
In 1851 the first missionaries to South America, Elders Parley P. Pratt and Rufus Allen, landed at Valparaiso, Chile, and found that country in the throes of a civil war. No permanent mission was established, and the missionary effort on the South American continent was deferred until 1925, when Elder Melvin J. Ballard, accompanied by Elders Rulon S. Wells and Rey L. Pratt, knelt in a grove of weeping willow trees near the bank of the Rio de la Plata in the city of Buenos Aires, Argentina, and dedicated the land of South America to the preaching of the gospel. In his prayer, Elder Ballard made this reference to the work that would be done among the Lamanites in the South American lands:

“And we also pray that we may see the beginning of the fulfilment of thy promises contained in the Book of Mormon to the Indians of this land, who are descendants of Lehi, millions of whom reside in this country, who have long been downtrodden and borne many afflictions and suffered because of sin and transgression, even as the prophets of the Book of Mormon did foretell. …

“Oh, Father, let thy spirit work upon them and manifest the truth of these things unto them, as we and thy servants who shall follow us shall bear witness of thy precious promises unto this branch of the House of Israel.”

In the report of these proceedings, Elder Ballard added this note: “Each of the brethren spoke briefly. … They blessed each other and felt that as a result of opening this mission, many Europeans in that land would receive the gospel; but that, ultimately, the great work of the mission would be to the Indians. This was a momentous day.” (Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, Bryant S. Hinckley, Deseret Book Co., 1949, pp. 96–97.)

At the October 1879 conference of the Church, three missionaries were called to open a mission in Mexico City. An earlier attempt (1876) to establish a mission in Mexico had not succeeded. Interruptions in the work occurred in later years as a consequence of the revolutionary period in Mexico. Nevertheless, the missions in Mexico are now among the most successful in the world, and a high percentage of those who have become members of the Church in Mexico can claim Book of Mormon origins. The 1960 census in that country indicated that as many as 26 million of its people at that date were of Indian ancestry....


Although many other enterprises among the Lamanites of North and South America and the islands of the Pacific have met with outstanding success over the years, perhaps the most dramatic events in the Church’s efforts among the Lamanites have occurred during the past twenty years. Many of the more recent developments have been motivated in large measure by President Spencer W. Kimball, who for a number of years served as chairman of the Church Indian Committee.

An extensive educational system has been developed throughout the Pacific and in Mexico, Central America, and South America. Nearly 16,000 students are attending Church-operated schools in Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Mexico, Fiji, New Zealand, Western Samoa, Tahiti, and Tonga. The great majority of these students are of Lamanite descent. They are receiving opportunities to develop talents and leadership abilities that will undergird the great growth of the Church yet to occur in these same areas.

In addition to those young people attending Church schools in the locations just mentioned, another 13,000 are enrolled in seminary classes as they attend public schools and federal schools in the United States and Canada. Approximately 1,500 attend Brigham Young University at its Provo, Utah, and Laie, Hawaii, campuses.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/12/ming ... s?lang=eng

This article in the Ensign is from over 40 years ago. The Lamanites in these countries continue to 'blossom as a rose' as they accept the gospel and join the church becoming a huge part of the membership in the last days. Just this fact alone; the clear fulfillment of divine prophecy, should prove to the spiritually open-minded, that these peoples are the descendants of Lamanites/Nephites. Not only that, they are also now fulfilling another prophesied destiny--they are 'going through' the gentiles 'as ravening wolves', tearing us apart, because gentiles are turning from their God, Jesus Christ, who is the god of this land. We ARE seeing them, 'the remnant of Jacob', fulfilling that prophecy as well.

If you've decided they aren't part of this group, simply because of your erroneous understanding of DNA, that's foolhardy.

This is not an 'either, or' situation. The Native Americans and the peoples of the southern part of the continent all can claim this lineage, as well a the peoples in the pacific islands.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

They are genetically related to the tribes that Laman and Lemauel would have intermarried with. So in that way they are Lamanites. But as stated only north American Indians have dna markers that originate in the middle east

cynth
Hi, I'm new.
Posts: 3

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by cynth »

ripliancum wrote: March 18th, 2017, 11:43 pm I'm just going by what research has shown...
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
you have shopped that article and your misinterpretations of it all over the internet. Your errors have been pointed out so many times and you have never responded. You just make Mormons look bad with your uneducated posts. In no way do you "go by the research." What's your point in posting your errors ovcer and over?

samizdat
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by samizdat »

The Church´s own Gospel Essays refutes the DNA claim ripliancum. 15000 BC != 2600 BC or 600 BC

User avatar
AI2.0
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3917

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by AI2.0 »

cynth wrote: March 21st, 2017, 12:22 pm
ripliancum wrote: March 18th, 2017, 11:43 pm I'm just going by what research has shown...
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
you have shopped that article and your misinterpretations of it all over the internet. Your errors have been pointed out so many times and you have never responded. You just make Mormons look bad with your uneducated posts. In no way do you "go by the research." What's your point in posting your errors ovcer and over?
I actually believe it poses a real threat for some members' fragile faith. I've read message forums like this one where members have left the church because they believed these purported DNA claims and then found out they were not accurate. This caused doubts and opened the person up to looking at more of these types of claims, and they concluded that the church is teaching and promoting falsehoods--even though the church is NOT teaching these things. Certain members are responsible for this.

Ripliancum is misinterpreting the DNA evidence and trying to force it to fit into the paradigm that he believes. The fact is that the church teaches that ALL indigenous peoples of the American continents are potentially descendants of the Nephites/lamanites, not just the Native Americans. The church makes no distinction; and the church teaches that the Book of Mormon lands exact location has not been revealed, so it leaves this open. Ripliancum takes a very narrow view--and relies on the false premise that the Haplogroup X2A(only found in Native Americans) is Lehi group DNA--but this DNA group came here 1,000s of years before the Lehites AND the Jaredites, so it's clearly NOT Lehite DNA.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

AI

What your saying is that Man evolved from apes and pond scum. The arrival of haplo group x according to scientist predates adam and eve by 9000 years. You may believe that man evolved from apes but I dont And I think most traditional lds members believe mankind came from adam and eve not monkeys.

Also I its a fact that Haplo Group x origins are in the middle east. The highest concentration of Haplo group x is found in Israel and Native Americans.

DesertWonderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1178

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by DesertWonderer »

cynth wrote: March 21st, 2017, 12:22 pm
ripliancum wrote: March 18th, 2017, 11:43 pm I'm just going by what research has shown...
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
you have shopped that article and your misinterpretations of it all over the internet. Your errors have been pointed out so many times and you have never responded. You just make Mormons look bad with your uneducated posts. In no way do you "go by the research." What's your point in posting your errors ovcer and over?
I'm convinced that ripliancum is an anti-mormon posing as an active member with the purpose of peddling false information just to cloud the subject and thereby weaken the veracity of the BoM and feel sorry for him. If not, I REALLY feel sorry for him and hope the best for him. Maybe he's one of Wayne May's sock puppets? This is the type of scholarship that he employs.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

Many people have unfortunately left the church. They site no evidence for the Book of Mormon in Central and South America. They can not picture a horse to be a tapir and iron swords made as wood. Common themes for those who purport the meso American model. The good thing about the meso american model is that it forces people to rely solely on faith which is not a bad thing.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

On the other hand North American has direct or historical evidence for every aspect of the Book of Mormon.

Reformed Egyptian Four Surviving Characters
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... glyph.html

Native American Traditional use of Sacred Metal Tablets
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... se-of.html

Archeological Evidence of the West Sea Fortified Line
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... t-sea.html

Native American Hebrew like temples
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... mples.html
Book of Mormon Cloth and Fine Twined Linen
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ttons.html
Book of Mormon Swords
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... words.html
Iroquios Lamanites
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... nites.html

Buried Nephite City and BOM Elephants
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... hants.html
Nephite/Hopewell Fortifications and ruins
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tions.html

Book of Mormon goats and cattle
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... attle.html
Book of Mormon DNA Evidence X2A'J
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... e-x2a.html

User avatar
AI2.0
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3917

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by AI2.0 »

ripliancum wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 12:34 pm AI

What your saying is that Man evolved from apes and pond scum.No, I did not say that, I do not believe that. You are making false statements about me because I refuse to allow you to use that DNA evidence to say something that it does not say. I'm not citing that Haplogroup DNA evidence, you are. And you are misleading others by NOT telling them that the scientists say it is from 15,000 BC. If, as you say, it can't be from 15,000 BC, then frankly, you ought to be wary of their data and NOT be citing it at all! The arrival of haplo group x according to scientist predates adam and eve by 9000 years. You may believe that man evolved from apes but I dont And I think most traditional lds members believe mankind came from adam and eve not monkeys.The DNA scientists have not even mentioned Adam and Eve! I believe Adam and Eve lived in 6,000 BC. I'm not the one citing DNA evidence which claims that men were on the earth in 15,000 BC--YOU ARE! Can you not see the irony of you accusing me of ignoring the Adam and Eve story, when you are the one citing this DNA evidence which researchers say is from 15,000 BC. I'm saying that it should not be ignored that those who found it claim it's from thousands of years before the Jaredites and Nephite/Lamanites. I'm saying because of this, it should not be used to try to bolster the Book of Mormon. It's misleading and dishonest. And, in the long run, it will damage the faith of some members when they find out they've been misled.

Also I its a fact that Haplo Group x origins are in the middle east. The highest concentration of Haplo group x is found in Israel and Native Americans.
If it was from a group who came to the Americas in 600 BC, it would matter. It's not. It is irrelevant. You don't have the right to take people's research, ignore their findings and twist it around to make it say what you want it to.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

AI2.0 wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 4:51 pm
ripliancum wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 12:34 pm AI

What your saying is that Man evolved from apes and pond scum.No, I did not say that, I do not believe that. You are making false statements about me because I refuse to allow you to use that DNA evidence to say something that it does not say. I'm not citing that Haplogroup DNA evidence, you are. And you are misleading others by NOT telling them that the scientists say it is from 15,000 BC. If, as you say, it can't be from 15,000 BC, then frankly, you ought to be wary of their data and NOT be citing it at all! The arrival of haplo group x according to scientist predates adam and eve by 9000 years. You may believe that man evolved from apes but I dont And I think most traditional lds members believe mankind came from adam and eve not monkeys.The DNA scientists have not even mentioned Adam and Eve! I believe Adam and Eve lived in 6,000 BC. I'm not the one citing DNA evidence which claims that men were on the earth in 15,000 BC--YOU ARE! Can you not see the irony of you accusing me of ignoring the Adam and Eve story, when you are the one citing this DNA evidence which researchers say is from 15,000 BC. I'm saying that it should not be ignored that those who found it claim it's from thousands of years before the Jaredites and Nephite/Lamanites. I'm saying because of this, it should not be used to try to bolster the Book of Mormon. It's misleading and dishonest. And, in the long run, it will damage the faith of some members when they find out they've been misled.

Also I its a fact that Haplo Group x origins are in the middle east. The highest concentration of Haplo group x is found in Israel and Native Americans.
If it was from a group who came to the Americas in 600 BC, it would matter. It's not. It is irrelevant. You don't have the right to take people's research, ignore their findings and twist it around to make it say what you want it to.
Amen to what AI2.0 says. Extreme irony.

User avatar
AI2.0
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3917

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by AI2.0 »

larsenb wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 8:07 pm
AI2.0 wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 4:51 pm
ripliancum wrote: March 22nd, 2017, 12:34 pm AI

What your saying is that Man evolved from apes and pond scum.No, I did not say that, I do not believe that. You are making false statements about me because I refuse to allow you to use that DNA evidence to say something that it does not say. I'm not citing that Haplogroup DNA evidence, you are. And you are misleading others by NOT telling them that the scientists say it is from 15,000 BC. If, as you say, it can't be from 15,000 BC, then frankly, you ought to be wary of their data and NOT be citing it at all! The arrival of haplo group x according to scientist predates adam and eve by 9000 years. You may believe that man evolved from apes but I dont And I think most traditional lds members believe mankind came from adam and eve not monkeys.The DNA scientists have not even mentioned Adam and Eve! I believe Adam and Eve lived in 6,000 BC. I'm not the one citing DNA evidence which claims that men were on the earth in 15,000 BC--YOU ARE! Can you not see the irony of you accusing me of ignoring the Adam and Eve story, when you are the one citing this DNA evidence which researchers say is from 15,000 BC. I'm saying that it should not be ignored that those who found it claim it's from thousands of years before the Jaredites and Nephite/Lamanites. I'm saying because of this, it should not be used to try to bolster the Book of Mormon. It's misleading and dishonest. And, in the long run, it will damage the faith of some members when they find out they've been misled.

Also I its a fact that Haplo Group x origins are in the middle east. The highest concentration of Haplo group x is found in Israel and Native Americans.
If it was from a group who came to the Americas in 600 BC, it would matter. It's not. It is irrelevant. You don't have the right to take people's research, ignore their findings and twist it around to make it say what you want it to.
Amen to what AI2.0 says. Extreme irony.
Thanks :)

And thank you very much for sharing your knowledge on these BofM threads, I'm learning a lot from your posts and the links you've shared.

DesertWonderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1178

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by DesertWonderer »

ripliancum: this might help your confusion with geopraphy:

https://www.facebook.com/murodelosidiom ... theateriam

(all of) America = The land of Ehrahim

Post Reply