Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

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larsenb
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: March 2nd, 2017, 11:46 am So I asked you if you have any evidence that indigenous people from Mexico or Central America have ties to the Book of Mormon. I will take your answer as being no since you haven't responded to that question.
I've responded to this question in other threads you've opened on your pet topic. I don't like repeating myself to the same person. And no, this stance doesn't constitute a 'no' to your question.

Go back to the last thread you opened on this topic and search my posts. You'll will find what I've said.
Last edited by larsenb on March 2nd, 2017, 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

larsenb
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: March 2nd, 2017, 11:43 am Wolves not being in Mexico was my point The clovis people could be the Jaredites for all I know. The facts are they hunted animals listed in the Book of Mormon such as sheep horses and mammoths(elephants).

I believe that man started with Adam. I think dating the clovis people to 15000 years ago is incorrect. My personal beliefs go against any idea that man evolved from pond scum and monkeys. So the Clovis people could fall inline with the Jaredites. Unless they were from the time of Adam and Noah which could be a good possibility.
So you're saying the Nephites/Lamanites hunted wolves to extinction in Mexico? Help me understand. You're not making much sense.

Whether you date Clovis evidence 11-13 K years BP, or not, there is absolutely no evidence that would tie them into being the Jaredites . . . unless you are thinking of Clovis points found w/Mammoth remains. Clovis evidence, though wide spread, is very sparse.

And you're certainly entitled to your beliefs and what you think. No problem from me on that score.

ripliancum
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

I think the Nephites and Lamanites lived east of the Rocky Mountains. So I don't think they were ever in Mexico unless it had to do with trade. A Hopewell site in Indiana had Mayan artifacts from Mexico central America. Hopewell trade was advanced.

Larsen did you ever find ties between the Book of Mormon and Indigenous people of Mexico and Central America. I'm assuming the answer is no on that.

ripliancum
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

ripliancum wrote: March 2nd, 2017, 9:52 pm I think the Nephites and Lamanites lived east of the Rocky Mountains. So I don't think they were ever in Mexico unless it had to do with trade. A Hopewell site in Indiana had Mayan artifacts from Mexico central America. Hopewell trade was advanced. Wolves are not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

Larsen did you ever find ties between the Book of Mormon and Indigenous people of Mexico and Central America. I'm assuming the answer is no on that.

larsenb
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Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: March 2nd, 2017, 9:52 pm I think the Nephites and Lamanites lived east of the Rocky Mountains. So I don't think they were ever in Mexico unless it had to do with trade. A Hopewell site in Indiana had Mayan artifacts from Mexico central America. Hopewell trade was advanced.

Larsen did you ever find ties between the Book of Mormon and Indigenous people of Mexico and Central America. I'm assuming the answer is no on that.
Your tend to lead with your hypothesis, and not by all the facts and evidence.

To answer your question, I'll repeat myself: "Go back to the last thread you opened on this topic and search my posts. You'll will find what I've said."

But I'll give you just one set of evidence one more time that indicates the Nephite/Lamanites were present well into Mexico and even Guatemala. You've been told this before, but there is no acknowledgement or pickup of what I present. Let's see how you do on this one item.

Refer to viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24693&p=686717&hil ... bs#p686717 . This is just one of many posts on this subject. How could you have missed them??

The significance of this article is that you find Uto-Aztecan speaking groups of modern Indians located in Guatemala, up the coast of Western Mexico, into southern California, into Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Arizona and into Texas speaking these languages. And of course, the Aztecs were located in Central South Mexico. And the telling point is that Stubbs found 1500 word cognates between Hebrew, Egyptian and other Semitic languages and the Uto-Aztecan languages spoken currently by these indigenous people in the locations mentioned.

And he was only investigating Uto-Aztecan languages. What might he find that is similar if he looked at other languages spoken in Mexico and Guatemala?

ripliancum
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

How do they compare to these ties

Hebrew and Greek language comparisons

There are examples of Hebrew customs, characters, beliefs and language among Native Americans. According to Mormon, they knew how to write in Hebrew and of course had Hebrew customs and beliefs (Mormon 9:33). The Greek language is also compared to the Native American languages of Indian tribes.

Comparison of Creek Indian Language

“The name of the Creeks for man, is ishto, and so it is in Hebrew…The same remark might be made with respect to the word Kenaai, for Canaan. Jehovah they call Y-he-ho-wah. The roof of the house they call toubanora; in the Hebrew it is debonaour. The nose they call nichiri in Hebrew, neheri. The great first cause, Yo-hewah; in Hebrew, Jehovah. Praise the first cause, in their language, halleluwah; in Hebrew, hallelujah. Father they call abba; the same in Hebrew. Now they call na; in Hebrew, na. To pray they call pliale; in Hebrew, phalae. In their language, abel is manslaughter; the same in Hebrew. Wife, awah; in Hebrew, eve, or eweh. Winter, kora in Hebrew, cora. God, Ale; in Hebrew, Ale, or Alohini. A high mountain, ararat; the same by the Indians of Penobscot.”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 282)



Mormon 9:33 – And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.


Silas T Rand knew several languages to include Hebrew concerning Micmac Indians:

“There are also some words in the language which resemble Greek. The Micmac word Ellenu, an Indian, is not very different from Hellene, a Greek. Ellenu esit (“He speaks Micmac”) is strikingly like the Greek, Hellenize (“He speaks Greek”). But in other respects the language resembles the Hebrew, especially in the suffixes by which the pronouns are connected in the accusative case with the verb.”
(Silas T Rand 1893)

“Their languages are very diverse and differs as much from one another as Dutch, French, Greek and Latin. Declension and conjugation resemble those in Greek, for they, like the Greeks, Have duals in their nouns and even augments in their verbs.”
(In Mohawk Country: Early Narratives About a Native People)

“Shilu in Indian is the same as Shiloh in Hebrew; the Indian word for father is Abba; the word for “waiter of the high priest” is Sagan in both Indian and Hebrew; the word for man in Indian is Ish or Ishie.”
(Adair 1735)

Gaspesian/Micmac Indians:

“Our Indians agree with the Greeks and Latins in this, that they use always the singular, and almost never, or at least very rarely, the plural, even when they speak to their missionaries, or to some other person of prominence. They express themselves by the word kir^ which means “thou,” whether it is the child speaking to its father, the wife to her husband, or the husband to his wife.”
(Clercq 1680 pg. 141)

“Antipas – name of a general in the BoM (Alma 56); name of a mountain in the BoM (Alma 47:7, 10); It is a Greek name, an abbreviation for ‘Antipater.’

Archeantus – Nephite commander (Moroni 9:2); a typical Greek formation, made using the Greek prefix ‘arch-‘ (“great, chief”), as in the Biblical Greek names Archelaus and Archippus.

Judea – the name of a Nephite city (Alma 56, 57); it is the Greek (i.e., New Testament) form of the Hebrew name ‘Judah,’ referring to the tribe, the Southern Kingdom, and the area of southern Palestine occupied by the tribe of Judah (the Jews).

Angola – city name at Mormon 2:4 – Greek ‘angelos’, meaning ’angel’”

DesertWonderer
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by DesertWonderer »

ripliancum wrote: March 2nd, 2017, 9:52 pm
ripliancum wrote: March 2nd, 2017, 9:52 pm I think the Nephites and Lamanites lived east of the Rocky Mountains. So I don't think they were ever in Mexico unless it had to do with trade. A Hopewell site in Indiana had Mayan artifacts from Mexico central America. Hopewell trade was advanced. Wolves are not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

Larsen did you ever find ties between the Book of Mormon and Indigenous people of Mexico and Central America. I'm assuming the answer is no on that.
Here's a good place to start: http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

This is also quite intriguing: http://www.ancient.eu/image/756/

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/publicat ... 0Wirth.pdf

Try going to the Neil A Maxwell Institute and reading anything they've produced about the BoM. There are 100's of links of like the above if someone were willing to look ;)

larsenb
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: March 3rd, 2017, 10:16 am How do they compare to these ties . . .
Once again you ignore the evidence you asked for and I provided . . . having provided the same evidence to you multiple times in past threads. This kind of behavior is not a discussion. It is not a dialogue. It is you focused on your agenda and ignoring anything else that doesn't support it.

The evidence and information discovered by Dr. Stubbs eclipses what you just posted by at least an order of magnitude, both in a quantitative and qualitative sense. Finding a few possible words in a language that are cognate to another language is quite common, according to linguists. Plus your translations of some of these few words would have little standing with linguists for similar reasons.

Regarding the Mic Mac Indians, I've also provided to you multiple times the findings of Dr. Barry Fell. You ignore this as well. But I'll recap it once again for you to consider.

He phonetically transcribed one of their ancient chants, which they no longer knew the meaning of, and discovered that the chant transliterated into Ptolemaic Greek, and surmised that the Mic Macs could have been Christian refugees living in Egypt, who came to the 'New World' to escape persecution. This would also account for their written language, which has very close affinities to Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Remember the Book of Mormon passages that say the Lord will lead righteous groups to the Land of Promise, from time-to-time and as He sees fit?

But we're covering the same ground we've covered in at least two other threads. There has been absolutely no pick-up or discussion with you regarding the evidence that has been provided to you. Are you willing to change this stance??
Last edited by larsenb on March 3rd, 2017, 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DesertWonderer
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by DesertWonderer »

larsenb wrote: March 3rd, 2017, 12:58 pm
ripliancum wrote: March 3rd, 2017, 10:16 am How do they compare to these ties . . .
It is you focused on agenda and ignoring anything else that doesn't support it.

This is the thing I find interesting about good old ripliancum. What exactly is his agenda? OR is it just a classic case of gospel hobby-ism warned against by ordained apostles many times?

ripliancum
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

Maybe Joseph Smiths words on the topic will be more convincing.

The following are quotes from Joseph Smith (and a few others) that shed much light on the subject. I’ve highlighted in bold the particular parts of these statements that recount geography.

JOSEPH SMITH’S JOURNAL ACCOUNT REGARDING MORONI’S FIRST VISIT, NOVEMBER 1835

“He told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the indians were the literal descendants of Abraham…” (Joseph Smith History 1:34 )

NOTE: Indians refers to the Native Americans all around upstate New York.

LUCY MACK SMITH RECOUNTS JOSEPH AFTER THE FIRST VISION:

“From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening, for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same…. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and their animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.” (History of Joseph Smith by his mother, 1954 edition, pp. 82-83)

PURPOSE OF THE BOOK OF MORMON

“Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment.” (The Book of Mormon)

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE CHURCH IS ORGANIZED, THE LORD COMMANDS THE FIRST MISSIONARIES TO GO TO THE REMNANT OF THE LAMANITES. SEPTEMBER 8, 1830

“ 8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you (Oliver Cowdery) shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them: …..” (D&C 28:8)

“1) And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt…

2) And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.” (D&C 32:1-2 October 1830)

WHERE DID THEY GO?

“Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three tribes…. the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y.; the Wyandots, of Ohio: and the Delawares, west of Missouri.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, p 56-61)

(NOTE; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints didn’t send missionaries to Central America until 1947. Almost 100 years after this commandment was issued by revelation.)

JOSEPH ALSO WENT PERSONALLY TO PREACH TO THE LAMANITES. AUGUST 12, 1841

“I accordingly went down, and met Keokuk, Kis-Ku-Kosh, Appenoose, and about one hundred chiefs and braves of those tribes (Sac, Fox), with their families.”

“I conducted them to the meeting grounds in the grove, and instructed them in many things which the Lord had revealed unto me concerning their fathers, and the promises that were made concerning them in the Book of Mormon.” (History of the Church: 4: 401-2 )

JOSEPH SMITH’S LETTER TO MR. JOHN WENTWORTH MARCH 1842

“March 1, 1842.—At the request of Mr. John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat, I have written the following sketch of the rise, progress, persecution, and faith of the Latter-day Saints, of which I have the honor, under God, of being the founder. ….all that I shall ask at his hands is that he publish the account entire, ungarnished, and without misrepresentation.”

(Note: this letter is one of the most important letters written by Joseph Smith because from it we get many details from the first vision, meetings with Moroni and this is also where the articles of faith originate.)

“I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me: I was also told where there was deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgement [abridgment] of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent….

The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Saviour [Savior] made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection, that he planted the gospel here in all its fulness [fullness], and richness, and power, and blessing; that they had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists; the same order, the same priesthood, the same ordinances, gifts, powers, and blessing, as was enjoyed on the eastern continent, that the people were cut off in consequence of their transgressions… “(History of the Church 1: 301)



JOSEPH SMITH’S LETTER TO THE AMERICAN REVIVALIST FEB 2, 1833

“The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians… By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them.

NOTE: At the time, anything west of the Alegehny and appalacian mountains was part of the West.

NOTE: For those who claim that Joseph Smith was merely stating his opinion, his follow up letter clearly refutes that. After his first letter was not published in its entirety Joseph Smith sent a second follow up letter to N. E. Seaton, Rochester. In it he states:

“Dear sir,

I was somewhat disappointed on the receiving my paper with only a part of my letter inserted in it. The letter which I wrote you for publication I wrote by the commandment of God. ” (History of the Church 1: 326)



LETTER PENNED BY JOSEPH SMITH TO EMMA DURRING ZION’S CAMP MARCH WHICH TRAVELED FROM EASTERN OHIO THROUGH ILLINOIS TO MISOURI. JUNE 4, 1834.

“The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)

THE ZELPH MOUND DISCOVERY DURING ZION’S CAMP MARCH AFTER CROSSING THE ILLINOIS RIVER. JUNE 3, 1834

Zelph Mound

Photograph by Ryan Fisher

“During our travels we visited several of the mounds which had been thrown up by the ancient inhabitants of this country-Nephites, Lamanites, etc., and this morning I went up on a high mound, near the river, accompanied by the brethren. From this mound we could overlook the tops of the trees and view the prairie on each side of the river as far as our vision could extend, and the scenery was truly delightful.

On the top of the mound were stones which presented the appearance of three altars having been erected one above the other, according to the ancient order; and the remains of bones were strewn over the surface of the ground. The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or, at least, in part-one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.” (History of the Church Vol. 2: 79-80, June 3, 1834, 1948 edition)

NOTE: The “Zelph” mound was excavated recently and carbon dated to 385 AD.

THE LORD REVEALS WHERE ZARAHEMLA IS TO BE REBUILT

3 Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it. (D&C 125:3)

ONE MONTH BEFORE JOSEPH’S MARTYRDOM HE TAUGHT THE LAMANITES. MAY 23, 1844

“1PM held council with the Indians Sac & Fox in my back kitchen. I replied….Great Spirit wants you to be united and live in peace. (I) found a book, (presenting the Book of Mormon) which told me about your fathers and Great Spirit told me you must send to all the tribes you can, and tell them to live in peace, and when any of our people come to see you treat them as we treat you.” (Joseph Smith Diary entry, Thursday, May 23rd, 1844)

These statements from Joseph Smith clearly state where the Nephite lands are. Not only what continent, but what Country, and even which states within the United States are Nephite Lands along with specific tribes who are Lamanite descendants. Joseph even digs up the grave of a fallen rightous Lamanite warrior and receives revelation about his name, when and how he died. And if that isn’t enough the Lord reveals to Joseph Smith the location of Zarahemla, the capital of the Nephite nation, in the Doctrine and Covenants. Can it be any clearer or more specific? Hardly.

Why some believe that the events of the Book of Mormon took place elsewhere is a topic for another discussion. One may interpret the revelation on Zarahemla in different ways, but when read in light of all that Joseph Smith left us, the simplest understanding makes perfect sense. All I hope to accomplish with this post is to draw attention to these precious statements and add these enlightenments to the long list of revelations from the prophet Joseph Smith.

From https://nephiteexplorer.com/

larsenb
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: March 10th, 2017, 11:36 am Maybe Joseph Smiths words on the topic will be more convincing.

The following are quotes from Joseph Smith (and a few others) that shed much light on the subject. I’ve highlighted in bold the particular parts of these statements that recount geography.

JOSEPH SMITH’S JOURNAL ACCOUNT REGARDING MORONI’S FIRST VISIT, NOVEMBER 1835

“He told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the indians were the literal descendants of Abraham…” (Joseph Smith History 1:34 )

NOTE: Indians refers to the Native Americans all around upstate New York. . . . . .

Why some believe that the events of the Book of Mormon took place elsewhere is a topic for another discussion. One may interpret the revelation on Zarahemla in different ways, but when read in light of all that Joseph Smith left us, the simplest understanding makes perfect sense. All I hope to accomplish with this post is to draw attention to these precious statements and add these enlightenments to the long list of revelations from the prophet Joseph Smith.

From https://nephiteexplorer.com/
You keep posting the same stuff and keep making the same logical error.

Your logical error consists of insisting that Indian tribes in the regions where Joseph was currently located were the sole descendants of the Lamanites, when Joseph himself made no such claim. In fact, his proven statements in editions of the 1842 Times and Seasons indicate he thought the original location of Zarahemla, etc., was in the region of southern Mexico/Guatemala.

And when I've brought up the work of Brian Stubbs who discovered that Uto-Aztecan languages have a high cognate correspondence to Hebrew, Egyptian and Semitic languages in general, and that tribes still speaking these languages are located in western States of the U.S., and down along the west-coast of Mexico and into Guatemala, you've had no response to this.

This information was provided to you after you asked for any evidence whatsoever that Lamanites were located outside of the region consisting of the U.S. Other information/evidence has been provided to you as well, showing the same thing.

But at this point, I"m curious what you think of Stubbs' research. Remember though, in order to discount Stubbs, you're going to have actually disprove what he has done . . . in an academic sense.

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AI2.0
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by AI2.0 »

My responses in blue;
ripliancum wrote: February 26th, 2017, 11:37 am My take on Book of Mormon goats and cattle mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... attle.html

Goats
An indigenous species of goat the Harington goat lived on the American continent but went extinct with the other 25 animals. I believe that the Clovis people (Nephites and Lamanites) caused its extinction.First, the clovis people lived during the Ice age, 10,000 BC. So, they were in America millenia before the Nephites and Lamanites. And the Heartland model geography does not fit the descriptions in the Book of Mormon.



Enos 1:21



21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.


Below is a Hopewell goat horn copper artifact. The Hopewell civilzation is considered to be the Nephite civilzation of North American models. They have many matching artifacts to include metal breastplates, headplates, jewelery, iron tools, and woven cloth. There traditional lands also included the Hill Cumorah during Book of Mormon times.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... attle.html

Cattle



Book of Mormon mentions cattle which is a criticism for the Book of Mormon saying there is no proof. It’s a known fact that three species of cattle (Bison latifrons, Ovibos cavifrons, Bison antiquus,) roamed what is now Hopewell Indian lands. It’s believed that the Clovis people caused the extinction of these animals but the current theories of the Clovis people are put into question with the given archeological, linguistic, cultural and DNA evidence of the Book of MormonThere are a number of animals in Mesoamerica that can fit the description of 'cattle', 'goats' etc.



“But specimens (Ovibos cavifrons) of this species have been excavated in Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Virginia; suggesting the southern limits of its range probably extended into the Georgia piedmont.”



https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2010/ ... eistocene/

See link for horses
Here is a very good article about this subject;

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/animal ... spectives/

But, if you are completely sold on the Heartland model, you probably won't consider it.

I liked the Heartland model, until I started to really study it and the evidence fell apart because of the geography, mostly. I also felt that some of the promoters of the Heartland present evidence which may not be authentic.

The article above starts out by explaining why they believe Mesoamerica is the most likely place the Book of Mormon events took place. In summary:

1. The geography of a narrow neck of land does not work in the Heartland model. Distances and time for travel don't work in Heartland model.

2. Volcanic activity--this is obviously what took place at Christ's crucifixion and this fits the geology for Mesoamerica, but not the Heartland--no volcanic activity in millions of years.

3. Gold and Silver--Mesoamerica had tons of this, Heartland area, no.

4. Pearls-- Pearls are plentiful in Mesoamerica, not in the Heartland area.

5. Cement--The Mesoamerican peoples were masters with cement. Did the Hopewell people use cement?

6.Climate--the Mesoamerican climate is mild, it fits with the Book of Mormon information given, and it also explains why little of archeological evidence can be found. Heartland, the weather can be very cold and we'd expect this to be mentioned in BofM.

6. The Jaredite and Nephite/Lamanite cultures were advanced. This fits with the archeology in Mesoamerica, but I don't think it fits with the ancient peoples of the Heartland model.

I'd also add that the Hill Cumorah area has not yielded any evidence of a great battle. I think the likely explanation is that our 'Hill Cumorah' was not THE Hill Cumorah they fought at, but it was the place that Moroni was led to, to bury the plates knowing they'd be found one day, through the divine guidance of God.

Regardless, the information on the animals is still useful and interesting to someone who believes in the Heartland model, IMO. He points out many interesting animals which could be the animals in the BofM. You might want to look at it.

Finrock
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by Finrock »

larsenb wrote: March 10th, 2017, 2:28 pm Your logical error consists of insisting that Indian tribes in the regions where Joseph was currently located were the sole descendants of the Lamanites, when Joseph himself made no such claim.
Generally speaking I'm a supporter of the Central American model for where much of the Book of Mormon events took place. This is to inform you that I don't have a pony in the race and that I favor the Central American model and that the question I want to ask you does not come from a bias to the North American model.

Question: In the post by ripliancum where he provides quotes by Joseph Smith, where specifically does ripliancum claim or insist that "...Indian tribes in the regions where Joseph was currently located were the sole descendants of the Lamanites..."?

I think ripliancum provided strong evidence that Joseph Smith believed and viewed that the Indians in North America were the ancestors of the Lamanites. But, given that those quotes are true, then clearly Joseph Smith, even if not exclusively, still strongly believed that the North American Indians were the ancestors of the Lamanites and that events spoken of in the Book of Mormon took place in North America. Again, given that those quotes are true, I think that fact has been established. Maybe Joseph Smith was wrong, but it certainly has been established that Joseph Smith believed that North American natives were ancestors of the people spoken of in the Book of Mormon and that the Book of Mormon contained a history of North American natives. You can't reasonably deny this, given that those quotes are true.

-Finrock

larsenb
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

Finrock wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:06 pm
larsenb wrote: March 10th, 2017, 2:28 pm Your logical error consists of insisting that Indian tribes in the regions where Joseph was currently located were the sole descendants of the Lamanites, when Joseph himself made no such claim.
Generally speaking I'm a supporter of the Central American model for where much of the Book of Mormon events took place. This is to inform you that I don't have a pony in the race and that I favor the Central American model and that the question I want to ask you does not come from a bias to the North American model.

Question: In the post by ripliancum where he provides quotes by Joseph Smith, where specifically does ripliancum claim or insist that "...Indian tribes in the regions where Joseph was currently located were the sole descendants of the Lamanites..."?

I think ripliancum provided strong evidence that Joseph Smith believed and viewed that the Indians in North America were the ancestors of the Lamanites. But, given that those quotes are true, then clearly Joseph Smith, even if not exclusively, still strongly believed that the North American Indians were the ancestors of the Lamanites and that events spoken of in the Book of Mormon took place in North America. Again, given that those quotes are true, I think that fact has been established. Maybe Joseph Smith was wrong, but it certainly has been established that Joseph Smith believed that North American natives were ancestors of the people spoken of in the Book of Mormon and that the Book of Mormon contained a history of North American natives. You can't reasonably deny this, given that those quotes are true.

-Finrock
Of course Joseph believed that Indians in North America were the ancestors of the Lamanites. Nobody is disputing that. However, most people, myself included, regard North America in the continental sense, not just the U.S., Canada and parts north of Canada. So, except for those who believe South America was the location of the Nephite/Lamanite lands, everybody else views these original lands as being located somewhere in the North American continent.

This has been discussed quite a bit earlier in this thread: different meanings of North America, Mesoamerica and Central America.

And I'm certainly not disputing that Joseph believed that Indians residing in the U.S. and its territories were descendants of the Lamanites.

The problem I have with Ripliacancum is that he thinks Joseph's statements about tribes he and other early Mormons preached to as being descended from the Lamanites, means that the Book of Mormon lands were also located in the same regions,

He doesn't seem to realize or accept the many passages in the Book of Mormon describing the many groups of Nephites who traveled to the North of the Nephite lands . . . or that there could have been many later migrations of Lamanites to the north. The Hopis have an oral tradition (as I recall, documented in The Book of the Hopi) of coming from the south, from what they called 'The Red City', for instance.

A lot can happen to various people over the span of say 1600 years in terms of movement and language changes. And I think there have been statements from the Brethren saying that all the indigenous inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere undoubtedly have some admixture of Lamanitish blood.

Oh, I forgot to mention, Ripliancum has challenged me and anyone else to show evidence that Lamanites were/are located outside of the regions Joseph mentioned.

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AI2.0
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by AI2.0 »

When Joseph Smith Jr. translated and published the Book of Mormon, little was known about central America. Joseph knew nothing about the ancient peoples and cultures of that country. When they learned about it, they were intrigued. From an article on this topic:

As increasing evidence points to Mesoamerica as the only serious candidate for the location of the Book of Mormon, and as information about ancient culture and life in Mesoamerica provides further parallels consistent with the Book of Mormon, it is time for critics to consider how much of this Joseph could have fabricated based on his knowledge of Mesoamerica. The reality is that Mesoamerica was not the focus of Joseph Smith's thoughts, at least not until he learned of newly available information about that part of the world that came out AFTER publication of the Book of Mormon. John L. Sorenson gives important insight on this issue in "The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerican Record," in Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited, ed. Noel B. Reynolds (Provo, UT: FARMS, 1997) p. 395:

There was one brief episode in Nauvoo when Nephite geography received new attention. A phenomenally popular book by John Lloyd Stephens, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan (New York, 1841), came into the possession of Church leaders in Nauvoo in 1842. It constituted the first body of information of any substance from which they, together with most people in the English-speaking world, could learn about some of the most spectacular ruins in Mesoamerica. The Saints' newspaper, the Times and Seasons, published long excerpts from the book. Apostle Orson Pratt later recalled, "Most of the discoveries made by Catherwood and Stephens were original ... [i.e.] had not been described by previous travelers" [Millennial Star, Vol. 11, No. 8, 15 April 1849, p. 116]. Stephens's biographer confirms Pratt's recollection: "The acceptance of an 'Indian civilization' demanded, to an American living in 1839 [when the first edition of Stephens appeared in England], an entire reorientation, for to him, an Indian was one of those barbaric, tepee dwellers against whom wars were constantly waged.... Nor did one ever think of calling the other [e.g., Mesoamerican] indigenous inhabitants of the continent 'civilized.' In the universally accepted opinion [of that day], they were like their North American counterparts -- savages" [Victor Wolfgang Von Hagen, Maya Explorer: The Life of John Lloyd Stephens, Norman, Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma Press, 1948, p. 75]. Enthusiastic comments published at Nauvoo showed that the Church's leaders, including Joseph Smith, were immensely stimulated by the new information. Within a few weeks of the first notice, they announced they had just discovered, by reading Stephens's book, that the Nephites' prime homeland must have been in Central, not South, America. [See Times and Seasons, Vol. 3, No. 22, 15 Sept. 1842, pp. 921-922. Later, the October 1st issue indicated that the editors had learned another important fact relating to the Book of Mormon from studying Stephens' work, namely, that "Central America, or Guatimala [sic]" was where the city of Zarahemla had been. Maps of Guatemala in that day tended to show Chiapas in southern Mexico as part of Guatemala, according to Sorenson.] An implication was that South America might not have been involved to a major degree, or perhaps not at all. (Also implicit was the point that the old interpretation was not considered by them to have come by revelation.)
http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme11.shtml

samizdat
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by samizdat »

larsenb wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:39 pm
Finrock wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:06 pm
larsenb wrote: March 10th, 2017, 2:28 pm Your logical error consists of insisting that Indian tribes in the regions where Joseph was currently located were the sole descendants of the Lamanites, when Joseph himself made no such claim.
Generally speaking I'm a supporter of the Central American model for where much of the Book of Mormon events took place. This is to inform you that I don't have a pony in the race and that I favor the Central American model and that the question I want to ask you does not come from a bias to the North American model.

Question: In the post by ripliancum where he provides quotes by Joseph Smith, where specifically does ripliancum claim or insist that "...Indian tribes in the regions where Joseph was currently located were the sole descendants of the Lamanites..."?

I think ripliancum provided strong evidence that Joseph Smith believed and viewed that the Indians in North America were the ancestors of the Lamanites. But, given that those quotes are true, then clearly Joseph Smith, even if not exclusively, still strongly believed that the North American Indians were the ancestors of the Lamanites and that events spoken of in the Book of Mormon took place in North America. Again, given that those quotes are true, I think that fact has been established. Maybe Joseph Smith was wrong, but it certainly has been established that Joseph Smith believed that North American natives were ancestors of the people spoken of in the Book of Mormon and that the Book of Mormon contained a history of North American natives. You can't reasonably deny this, given that those quotes are true.

-Finrock
Of course Joseph believed that Indians in North America were the ancestors of the Lamanites. Nobody is disputing that. However, most people, myself included, regard North America in the continental sense, not just the U.S., Canada and parts north of Canada. So, except for those who believe South America was the location of the Nephite/Lamanite lands, everybody else views these original lands as being located somewhere in the North American continent.

This has been discussed quite a bit earlier in this thread: different meanings of North America, Mesoamerica and Central America.

And I'm certainly not disputing that Joseph believed that Indians residing in the U.S. and its territories were descendants of the Lamanites.

The problem I have with Ripliacancum is that he thinks Joseph's statements about tribes he and other early Mormons preached to as being descended from the Lamanites, means that the Book of Mormon lands were also located in the same regions,

He doesn't seem to realize or accept the many passages in the Book of Mormon describing the many groups of Nephites who traveled to the North of the Nephite lands . . . or that there could have been many later migrations of Lamanites to the north. The Hopis have an oral tradition (as I recall, documented in The Book of the Hopi) of coming from the south, from what they called 'The Red City', for instance.

A lot can happen to various people over the span of say 1600 years in terms of movement and language changes. And I think there have been statements from the Brethren saying that all the indigenous inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere undoubtedly have some admixture of Lamanitish blood.

Oh, I forgot to mention, Ripliancum has challenged me and anyone else to show evidence that Lamanites were/are located outside of the regions Joseph mentioned.
The Red City?

That is interesting.

In Tzeltal (a Mayan dialect spoken in central and northern Chiapas State, Mexico), the rendering for RED is TSAJAL that could also be rendered ZAAL, hill as HEMEL (root HEM) and house as NA.

Combine the Hill of the Red House and you get in that language, ZA'ALHEMNA.

larsenb
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

samizdat wrote: March 10th, 2017, 9:00 pm
larsenb wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:39 pm
Finrock wrote: March 10th, 2017, 3:06 pm
larsenb wrote: March 10th, 2017, 2:28 pm Your logical error consists of insisting that Indian tribes in the regions where Joseph was currently located were the sole descendants of the Lamanites, when Joseph himself made no such claim.
Generally speaking I'm a supporter of the Central American model for where much of the Book of Mormon events took place. This is to inform you that I don't have a pony in the race and that I favor the Central American model and that the question I want to ask you does not come from a bias to the North American model.

Question: In the post by ripliancum where he provides quotes by Joseph Smith, where specifically does ripliancum claim or insist that "...Indian tribes in the regions where Joseph was currently located were the sole descendants of the Lamanites..."?

I think ripliancum provided strong evidence that Joseph Smith believed and viewed that the Indians in North America were the ancestors of the Lamanites. But, given that those quotes are true, then clearly Joseph Smith, even if not exclusively, still strongly believed that the North American Indians were the ancestors of the Lamanites and that events spoken of in the Book of Mormon took place in North America. Again, given that those quotes are true, I think that fact has been established. Maybe Joseph Smith was wrong, but it certainly has been established that Joseph Smith believed that North American natives were ancestors of the people spoken of in the Book of Mormon and that the Book of Mormon contained a history of North American natives. You can't reasonably deny this, given that those quotes are true.

-Finrock
Of course Joseph believed that Indians in North America were the ancestors of the Lamanites. Nobody is disputing that. However, most people, myself included, regard North America in the continental sense, not just the U.S., Canada and parts north of Canada. So, except for those who believe South America was the location of the Nephite/Lamanite lands, everybody else views these original lands as being located somewhere in the North American continent.

This has been discussed quite a bit earlier in this thread: different meanings of North America, Mesoamerica and Central America.

And I'm certainly not disputing that Joseph believed that Indians residing in the U.S. and its territories were descendants of the Lamanites.

The problem I have with Ripliacancum is that he thinks Joseph's statements about tribes he and other early Mormons preached to as being descended from the Lamanites, means that the Book of Mormon lands were also located in the same regions,

He doesn't seem to realize or accept the many passages in the Book of Mormon describing the many groups of Nephites who traveled to the North of the Nephite lands . . . or that there could have been many later migrations of Lamanites to the north. The Hopis have an oral tradition (as I recall, documented in The Book of the Hopi) of coming from the south, from what they called 'The Red City', for instance.

A lot can happen to various people over the span of say 1600 years in terms of movement and language changes. And I think there have been statements from the Brethren saying that all the indigenous inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere undoubtedly have some admixture of Lamanitish blood.

Oh, I forgot to mention, Ripliancum has challenged me and anyone else to show evidence that Lamanites were/are located outside of the regions Joseph mentioned.
The Red City?

That is interesting.

In Tzeltal (a Mayan dialect spoken in central and northern Chiapas State, Mexico), the rendering for RED is TSAJAL that could also be rendered ZAAL, hill as HEMEL (root HEM) and house as NA.

Combine the Hill of the Red House and you get in that language, ZA'ALHEMNA.
I've actually seen that connection made before; maybe from Hugh Nibley or similar source. Not sure it was made w/that particular Mayan dialect, though.

Interesting, indeed.

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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

If I have choice going by what scripture states, Joseph Smith versus times and season I go with the Scriptures and Joseph Smith. Joseph just did not believe that its revelation.

D&C54:8
8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by AI2.0 »

ripliancum wrote: March 12th, 2017, 10:57 am If I have choice going by what scripture states, Joseph Smith versus times and season I go with the Scriptures and Joseph Smith. Joseph just did not believe that its revelation.

D&C54:8
8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.
But that's not proof that the Land of Nephi etc. was in Missouri. I think we all agree that the Native Americans of today have the blood of the Nephites and Lamanites of yesterday in them. But, Hispanics, Peruvians, Mayans, Mexicans, also have that blood as well.

If Joseph Smith had said definitively that the Land of Nephi/Bountiful/Zarahemla etc. was here in the united states, then we wouldn't even be arguing over this. There would be no 'Heartland model' and no 'Mesoamerican model'. That's proof enough that Joseph Smith never told anyone exactly where the book of mormon lands were located. That's proof that we don't know exactly where they were because the Lord never made it known.

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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by Teancum »

These are my thoughts:

What encompasses more of what Joseph said? It seems to me that one can pick and choose one or two words out of scripture to support any belief, but only when one takes in the entire amount of evidence, does the picture become clear.

It reminds me of this poem about the blind men and the elephant posted on another thread:
viewtopic.php?t=32065#p451717
theBruceGuy wrote: February 4th, 2014, 1:34 pm I have always used this poem to illustrate that while something may be true as we percieve it, we need to gain the whole truth to really comprehend things.

The Blind Men and the Elephant
John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887)

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a SPEAR!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a SNAKE!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he:
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a TREE!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a FAN!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a ROPE!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

From: http://rockart.me/tree-of-life-panel/

ImageTree of Life Panel by Randy Langstraat, on Flickr

Perhaps this depiction of Lehi's Tree of Life leads us to consider that all cultures have a part of the truth and that we are hard hearted when we think we have all the truth and there is no more that anyone else might have. If this is the case, then we lose even that amount that we have, becasue we are not willing to receive more.
I would be cautious not to be over zealous in promoting a narrow view when we see that the early bretheren (Joseph Smith being the best example) were willing to embrace more truth and thus widening their perspective.


larsenb
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

kenssurplus wrote: March 12th, 2017, 5:38 pm These are my thoughts:

What encompasses more of what Joseph said? It seems to me that one can pick and choose one or two words out of scripture to support any belief, but only when one takes in the entire amount of evidence, does the picture become clear.

It reminds me of this poem about the blind men and the elephant posted on another thread:
viewtopic.php?t=32065#p451717 . . . . . . .

I would be cautious not to be over zealous in promoting a narrow view when we see that the early bretheren (Joseph Smith being the best example) were willing to embrace more truth and thus widening their perspective.
Very interesting pictograph. The only thing missing seems to be the large and spacious building.

larsenb
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by larsenb »

This geographical depiction of the lands of the Lamanites and the Nephites depicted in your first link is astonishing in how it does NOT fit the geographical constraints in terms of named locations and features, their spatial relationships and the distances and time-traveled between them, as depicted in the Book of Mormon text.

HLM1.JPG
HLM1.JPG (39.51 KiB) Viewed 1128 times

If you really want to get a handle on why this is so, I highly recommend you get Ric Hauck's book, Deciphering the Geography of the Book of Mormon, and discover first-hand what someone has done who has made a thorough study of these relationships using the actual text.

Until those who push the model shown above, or believe in it, actually do something like this, they have nothing to stand on. Sorry, folks. That's just the way it is.

samizdat
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by samizdat »

I would advise everyone to see the new BOM maps that BYU has put out. They are internal maps and are not meant to pigeonhole one specific region over another.

That said, it becomes extremely clear that Andean South America and Mesoamerica (though tilted at a 45 degree angle) match pretty well to the descriptions of the internal map and the heartland does not.

http://bom.byu.edu/

ripliancum
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Re: Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

Post by ripliancum »

If you compare native American culture to the Book of Mormon you see all kinds of ties. In central and south America you do not see any ties that our outside the realm of coincidences. There is just no comparison.

Kishkumen

An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun, who succeeded his father to be chief, is mentioned in Warren’s book, Ojibwa History. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly similar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. In fact if you google Keeshkemun, Kishkumen will come up. Besides Isrealis Ojibwa Indians have the highest concentration of haplogroup X DNA.

Onidah

The Book of Mormon in Alma 47:5 states that disaffected Lamanites gathered at a hill called Onidah
There is Native American Tribe in New York called Onieda phonetically exactly the same as Onidah

Native American Hebrew like temples
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... mples.html

Native American jewish Hamsa symbol
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ymbol.html

Native American Egyptian Hieroglyphs
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... glyph.html

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... rican.html

Onondaga




In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion’s Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith. He had vision as to who the bones belonged to.

“At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.”

The Prophet Onandagus is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but has obvious ties to the Onondaga Tribe whose traditional lands are in the state of New York.

The Saying Bury the Hatchet

The Book of Mormon tells the history of the Anti-Nephi’s, a Lamanite people who no longer wanted to fight or kill other people. They made this covenant to God to longer fight by burying their weapons in the ground, never to use them again even in the case of self-defense for themselves or for their family.

The saying bury the hatchet comes from the Algonquin Indians of the Great Lakes area who also made peace by burying their weapons of war. As mentioned before, I think the Hopewell Indians are the best candidate to be the Nephites for numerous reasons - this is one of them.

The first mention of the practice in English is to an actual hatchet-burying ceremony.

Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, “I write to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon’s going to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them.”
(South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785)

Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase ‘Bury the Hatchet: “ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.”

Native American Idioms and Phraseology

Native American idioms and phraseology, as described by early settlers, are consistent with the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. Below are some examples of Native American idioms consistent with scripture. Examples are from John Heckewelder’s Manners and Customs of The Indian Nations Who Once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States.

Native American saying: “I will place you under my wings!”

Meaning: I will protect you at all hazards! You shall be perfectly safe, nobody shall molest you!

Scripture: 3 Nephi 10:6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: ”To bury deep in the earth” (an injury done)

Meaning: To consign it to oblivion.

Scripture: 2 Nephi 26:5 And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them.
(Heckewelder pg. 140)

Native American saying: “You have spoken with your lips only, not from the heart!”

Meaning: You endeavor to deceive me; you do not intend to do as you say!

Scripture: 2 Nephi 27:25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: “draw the thorns out of your feet and legs, grease your Stiffened joints with oil, and wipe the sweat off your body.”

Meaning: I make you feel comfortable after your fatiguing journey, that you may enjoy yourself while with us.

Hebrew Custom: The washing of feet is a Hebrew custom. It was the first item done when entering a house or tent. The host would provide the water and the guest would wash his own feet. If the host was wealthy, a slave would wash the feet.

Anointing of oil was used by Jews to refresh and invigorate the body. This custom is still done today by Arabians. In the example there are some similarities in the cleaning of feet and legs from thorns and the anointing of oil or grease to refresh the body.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American Council Tower

Mosiah 2:7

7 For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them.

“Professor Carr of its once having supported a building similar to the council-house observed by Bartram on a mound at the old Cherokee town Cowe. Both were built on mounds, both were circular, both were built on posts set in the ground at equal distances from each other, and each had a central pillar. As tending to confirm this statement of Bartram’s, the following passage may be quoted, where, speaking of Colonel Christian’s march against the Cherokee towns in 1770, Eamsey says that this officer found in the center of each town ”a circular tower rudely built and covered with dirt, 30 feet in diameter, and about 20 feet high. This tower was used as a council-house… Mr. M. C. Bead, of Hudson, Ohio, discovered similar evidences in a mound near Chattanooga, and Mr. Gerard Fowke has quite recently found the same thing in a mound at Waverly, Ohio.”
(Thomas 1889 pg. 32)

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