Book of Mormon Goats and Cattle

[ripliancum]

My take on Book of Mormon goats and cattle mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... attle.html

Goats
An indigenous species of goat the Harington goat lived on the American continent but went extinct with the other 25 animals. I believe that the Clovis people (Nephites and Lamanites) caused its extinction.



Enos 1:21



21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.


Below is a Hopewell goat horn copper artifact. The Hopewell civilzation is considered to be the Nephite civilzation of North American models. They have many matching artifacts to include metal breastplates, headplates, jewelery, iron tools, and woven cloth. There traditional lands also included the Hill Cumorah during Book of Mormon times.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... attle.html

Cattle



Book of Mormon mentions cattle which is a criticism for the Book of Mormon saying there is no proof. It’s a known fact that three species of cattle (Bison latifrons, Ovibos cavifrons, Bison antiquus,) roamed what is now Hopewell Indian lands. It’s believed that the Clovis people caused the extinction of these animals but the current theories of the Clovis people are put into question with the given archeological, linguistic, cultural and DNA evidence of the Book of Mormon



“But specimens (Ovibos cavifrons) of this species have been excavated in Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Virginia; suggesting the southern limits of its range probably extended into the Georgia piedmont.”



https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2010/ ... eistocene/

See link for horses

[JohnnyL]

Reminded me of this article, which fits with not Mesoamerica, Guatemala, etc.:
https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... -by-grego/

[ripliancum]

That is another point that supports the North American model. North America does have wolves. Meso America south America does not have wolves. Joseph Smith said that Nephite lands were in Illinois and Ohio.

If your not familiar with North AMerican models most state that Nephite and lamanite lands are in north America east of the Rocky mountains

[larsenb]

That is another point that supports the North American model. North America does have wolves. Meso America south America does not have wolves. Joseph Smith said that Nephite lands were in Illinois and Ohio

Why do you 'heartland' modelers always place Mesoamerica outside of North America?? Mesoamerica is a component of North America. And yes, Mexico and probably Guatemala had wolves. The Mexican wolf was found at least throughout Mexico.

[larsenb]

My take on Book of Mormon goats and cattle mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... attle.html

Goats
An indigenous species of goat the Harington goat lived on the American continent but went extinct with the other 25 animals. I believe that the Clovis people (Nephites and Lamanites) caused its extinction. . . . . . .

Book of Mormon mentions cattle which is a criticism for the Book of Mormon saying there is no proof. It’s a known fact that three species of cattle (Bison latifrons, Ovibos cavifrons, Bison antiquus,) roamed what is now Hopewell Indian lands. It’s believed that the Clovis people caused the extinction of these animals but the current theories of the Clovis people are put into question with the given archeological, linguistic, cultural and DNA evidence of the Book of Mormon . . . .

No ripliancum, the Clovis people were NOT Nephites and Lamanites. They are perhaps the earliest known human inhabitants of North America, based mainly on a distinctive point artifact, called the Clovis point. They are associated with Pleistocene megafauna, which places them all the way back to 11,000 to 12,000 years BP.

[ripliancum]

My take on Book of Mormon goats and cattle mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... attle.html

Goats
An indigenous species of goat the Harington goat lived on the American continent but went extinct with the other 25 animals. I believe that the Clovis people (Nephites and Lamanites) caused its extinction. . . . . . .

Book of Mormon mentions cattle which is a criticism for the Book of Mormon saying there is no proof. It’s a known fact that three species of cattle (Bison latifrons, Ovibos cavifrons, Bison antiquus,) roamed what is now Hopewell Indian lands. It’s believed that the Clovis people caused the extinction of these animals but the current theories of the Clovis people are put into question with the given archeological, linguistic, cultural and DNA evidence of the Book of Mormon . . . .

No ripliancum, the Clovis people were NOT Nephites and Lamanites. They are perhaps the earliest known human inhabitants of North America, based mainly on a distinctive point artifact, called the Clovis point. They are associated with Pleistocene megafauna, which places them all the way back to 11,000 to 12,000 years BP.

Clovis people is a interesting case but Lasenb It did not happen in meso america there are no goats cattle breastplates wheat barley , etc etc in meso or south america

[ripliancum]

Native American ties to the Book of Mormon, either through legend or culture.

Kishkumen

An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun, who succeeded his father to be chief, is mentioned in Warren’s book, Ojibwa History. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly similar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. In fact if you google Keeshkemun, Kishkumen will come up. Besides Isrealis Ojibwa Indians have the highest concentration of haplogroup X DNA.

Onidah

The Book of Mormon in Alma 47:5 states that disaffected Lamanites gathered at a hill called Onidah
There is Native American Tribe in New York called Onieda phonetically exactly the same as Onidah


Onondaga
In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion’s Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith. He had vision as to who the bones belonged to.

“At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.”

The Prophet Onandagus is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but has obvious ties to the Onondaga Tribe whose traditional lands are in the state of New York.

Native American Council Tower

Mosiah 2:7

7 For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them.

“Professor Carr of its once having supported a building similar to the council-house observed by Bartram on a mound at the old Cherokee town Cowe. Both were built on mounds, both were circular, both were built on posts set in the ground at equal distances from each other, and each had a central pillar. As tending to confirm this statement of Bartram’s, the following passage may be quoted, where, speaking of Colonel Christian’s march against the Cherokee towns in 1770, Eamsey says that this officer found in the center of each town ”a circular tower rudely built and covered with dirt, 30 feet in diameter, and about 20 feet high. This tower was used as a council-house… Mr. M. C. Bead, of Hudson, Ohio, discovered similar evidences in a mound near Chattanooga, and Mr. Gerard Fowke has quite recently found the same thing in a mound at Waverly, Ohio.”
(Thomas 1889 pg. 32)

The Saying Bury the Hatchet

The Book of Mormon tells the history of the Anti-Nephi’s, a Lamanite people who no longer wanted to fight or kill other people. They made this covenant to God to longer fight by burying their weapons in the ground, never to use them again even in the case of self-defense for themselves or for their family.

The saying bury the hatchet comes from the Algonquin Indians of the Great Lakes area who also made peace by burying their weapons of war. As mentioned before, I think the Hopewell Indians are the best candidate to be the Nephites for numerous reasons - this is one of them.

The first mention of the practice in English is to an actual hatchet-burying ceremony.

Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, “I write to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon’s going to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them.”
(South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785)

Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase ‘Bury the Hatchet: “ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.”


Native American Idioms and Phraseology

Native American idioms and phraseology, as described by early settlers, are consistent with the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. Below are some examples of Native American idioms consistent with scripture. Examples are from John Heckewelder’s Manners and Customs of The Indian Nations Who Once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States.

Native American saying: “I will place you under my wings!”

Meaning: I will protect you at all hazards! You shall be perfectly safe, nobody shall molest you!

Scripture: 3 Nephi 10:6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: ”To bury deep in the earth” (an injury done)

Meaning: To consign it to oblivion.

Scripture: 2 Nephi 26:5 And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them.
(Heckewelder pg. 140)

Native American saying: “You have spoken with your lips only, not from the heart!”

Meaning: You endeavor to deceive me; you do not intend to do as you say!

Scripture: 2 Nephi 27:25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: “draw the thorns out of your feet and legs, grease your Stiffened joints with oil, and wipe the sweat off your body.”

Meaning: I make you feel comfortable after your fatiguing journey, that you may enjoy yourself while with us.

Hebrew Custom: The washing of feet is a Hebrew custom. It was the first item done when entering a house or tent. The host would provide the water and the guest would wash his own feet. If the host was wealthy, a slave would wash the feet.

Anointing of oil was used by Jews to refresh and invigorate the body. This custom is still done today by Arabians. In the example there are some similarities in the cleaning of feet and legs from thorns and the anointing of oil or grease to refresh the body.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

[ripliancum]

If you look at traditional ties indigenous people have to the Book of Mormon they are only found in North America not Mexico or south America. Besides Mexico Is to far away from Hill Cumorah the Lamanite and Nephites last battle location.

[larsenb]

If you look at traditional ties indigenous people have to the Book of Mormon they are only found in North America not Mexico or south America. Besides Mexico Is to far away from Hill Cumorah the Lamanite and Nephites last battle location.

News flash to ripliancum: North America extends south to the southern border of Panama.

[ripliancum]

News flash Mexico is thousands of miles from Hill Cumorah.

[ripliancum]

LarsenB if you can find any ties that indigenous people in Mexico have with the Book of Mormon that are comparable to North American Tribes I might reconsider mexico.

[larsenb]

LarsenB if you can find any ties that indigenous people in Mexico have with the Book of Mormon that are comparable to North American Tribes I might reconsider mexico.

I have no interest in persuading you to change your belief. You are welcome to it. I just don't like to see you promulgate bad reasoning or false statements. So my replies are mainly for those who may be reading your posts.

[JohnnyL]

That is another point that supports the North American model. North America does have wolves. Meso America south America does not have wolves. Joseph Smith said that Nephite lands were in Illinois and Ohio

Why do you 'heartland' modelers always place Mesoamerica outside of North America?? Mesoamerica is a component of North America. And yes, Mexico and probably Guatemala had wolves. The Mexican wolf was found at least throughout Mexico.

References on wolves in Guatemala, Mexico?

"NA" should be clearer: the USA and maybe Canada.

Mesoamericaners should be clearer: Guatemala. Is there more?

[larsenb]

That is another point that supports the North American model. North America does have wolves. Meso America south America does not have wolves. Joseph Smith said that Nephite lands were in Illinois and Ohio

Why do you 'heartland' modelers always place Mesoamerica outside of North America?? Mesoamerica is a component of North America. And yes, Mexico and probably Guatemala had wolves. The Mexican wolf was found at least throughout Mexico.

References on wolves in Guatemala, Mexico?

"NA" should be clearer: the USA and maybe Canada.

Mesoamericaners should be clearer: Guatemala. Is there more?

Read this wikipedia article on the Mexican wolf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_wolf . You will learn that its more recent historical range included northern Mexico. If you read further, you will discover that it was held in high regard in pre-Columbian Mexico, and was even bred with dogs in the City of Teotihuacan and sacrificed under certain conditions, indicating a range in the more southern parts of Mexico.

The problem with speculations about various animals located in various parts of North America (this includes all the countries down to the southern tip of Panama) in pre-Columbian time is the lack of, or very sparse data. We've only recently learned that a species of Woolly Mammoths survived on Wrangel Island up to 4,000 years ago, which means 2,000 years BC or BCE .

It's really iffy to categorically deny that this species or that was not present here or there in pre-Columbian times. Your simply up against the philosophical problem of trying to prove a negative.

Regarding North America, it is primarily the name of a continent, with the extent as mentioned. In all fairness to ripliancum, the Wikipedia article does say that there is a specialized Canadian usage where the term may refer to the U.S., Canada and parts north; and the article mentions a usage employed by NAFTA, that includes Mexico. The general meaning, however, is the name for the continental area.

[JohnnyL]

That is another point that supports the North American model. North America does have wolves. Meso America south America does not have wolves. Joseph Smith said that Nephite lands were in Illinois and Ohio

Why do you 'heartland' modelers always place Mesoamerica outside of North America?? Mesoamerica is a component of North America. And yes, Mexico and probably Guatemala had wolves. The Mexican wolf was found at least throughout Mexico.

References on wolves in Guatemala, Mexico?

"NA" should be clearer: the USA and maybe Canada.

Mesoamericaners should be clearer: Guatemala. Is there more?

Read this wikipedia article on the Mexican wolf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_wolf . You will learn that its more recent historical range included northern Mexico. If you read further, you will discover that it was held in high regard in pre-Columbian Mexico, and was even bred with dogs in the City of Teotihuacan and sacrificed under certain conditions, indicating a range in the more southern parts of Mexico.

The problem with speculations about various animals located in various parts of North America (this includes all the countries down to the southern tip of Panama) in pre-Columbian time is the lack of, or very sparse data. We've only recently learned that a species of Woolly Mammoths survived on Wrangel Island up to 4,000 years ago, which means 2,000 years BC or BCE .

It's really iffy to categorically deny that this species or that was not present here or there in pre-Columbian times. Your simply up against the philosophical problem of trying to prove a negative.

Regarding North America, it is primarily the name of a continent, with the extent as mentioned. In all fairness to ripliancum, the Wikipedia article does say that there is a specialized Canadian usage where the term may refer to the U.S., Canada and parts north; and the article mentions a usage employed by NAFTA, that includes Mexico. The general meaning, however, is the name for the continental area.

I can't think of a single person who includes even Mexico in "NA" in general talk, much less all the way down to Panama. It was and is NA, CA (Mexico to Panama), SA. I know it's different for "higher talk" in geography and some science.

I can't think of many non-USA/Canada models that are outside of Guatemala, and the bigwigs all put it mostly in Guatemala.

Wolves in northern Mexico--far from Guatemala. Sure, more can be found and science can change. But right now, it's not a good point.

[samizdat]

North America: Alaska, Canada, Lower 48 United States, Mexico (though I would argue the true dividing line is the Isthmus of Tehuantepec)

Central America: SE Mexico (Tabasco, Chiapas, Campeche, Quintana Roo, Yucatan), Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama.

South America: The 13 countries in the continent of South America.

Ask any Latino however, and they will refer to America as one continent, from Point Barrow to Puerto Williams, from Unalaska to Joao Pessoa.

Joseph Smith had that understanding though he did divide up North and South America.

Succeeding prophets mentioned Chile and Argentina as much a part of the Land of Zion as the USA though the center stakes of Zion WOULD be in the USA (where NJ is to be built).

[larsenb]

. . . . .
Read this wikipedia article on the Mexican wolf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_wolf . You will learn that its more recent historical range included northern Mexico. If you read further, you will discover that it was held in high regard in pre-Columbian Mexico, and was even bred with dogs in the City of Teotihuacan and sacrificed under certain conditions, indicating a range in the more southern parts of Mexico.

The problem with speculations about various animals located in various parts of North America (this includes all the countries down to the southern tip of Panama) in pre-Columbian time is the lack of, or very sparse data. We've only recently learned that a species of Woolly Mammoths survived on Wrangel Island up to 4,000 years ago, which means 2,000 years BC or BCE .

It's really iffy to categorically deny that this species or that was not present here or there in pre-Columbian times. Your simply up against the philosophical problem of trying to prove a negative.

Regarding North America, it is primarily the name of a continent, with the extent as mentioned. In all fairness to ripliancum, the Wikipedia article does say that there is a specialized Canadian usage where the term may refer to the U.S., Canada and parts north; and the article mentions a usage employed by NAFTA, that includes Mexico. The general meaning, however, is the name for the continental area.

I can't think of a single person who includes even Mexico in "NA" in general talk, much less all the way down to Panama. It was and is NA, CA (Mexico to Panama), SA. I know it's different for "higher talk" in geography and some science.

I can't think of many non-USA/Canada models that are outside of Guatemala, and the bigwigs all put it mostly in Guatemala.

Wolves in northern Mexico--far from Guatemala. Sure, more can be found and science can change. But right now, it's not a good point.

I can't think of a single person outside of Heartlanders who regard North America as simply the U.S and Canada. Maybe it's something that's crept into common usage in recent years. I've always regarded North America in the continental sense, and don't recall hearing it any other way until I started reading Heartlander stuff.

Regarding wolves, you missed the points of the article that placed the Mexican wolf in southern Mexico in pre-Columbian times. Whether they were present or not doesn't seem to have much to do with any model, whether the Limited Tehuantepec or the Heartland model, in any case. The word 'wolf' is found in Isaiah, which the Nephites had, and is found through the Torah and some of the prophets, which probably was very close to the Brass Plates in most particulars.

[larsenb]

North America: Alaska, Canada, Lower 48 United States, Mexico (though I would argue the true dividing line is the Isthmus of Tehuantepec)

Central America: SE Mexico (Tabasco, Chiapas, Campeche, Quintana Roo, Yucatan), Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama.

South America: The 13 countries in the continent of South America.

Ask any Latino however, and they will refer to America as one continent, from Point Barrow to Puerto Williams, from Unalaska to Joao Pessoa.

Joseph Smith had that understanding though he did divide up North and South America.

Succeeding prophets mentioned Chile and Argentina as much a part of the Land of Zion as the USA though the center stakes of Zion WOULD be in the USA (where NJ is to be built).

Exactly on Joseph Smith's understanding. BMAF has articles written on this topic, identifying word usage during his time.

The Wikipedia article on Central America, which one assumes was written by someone with geographical expertise, has this to say:

Central America (Spanish: "América Central" or "Centroamérica") is the southernmost, isthmian portion of the North American continent, which connects with South America on the southeast. Central America is bordered by Mexico to the north, Colombia to the southeast, the Caribbean Sea to the east, and the Pacific Ocean to the west. Central America consists of seven countries: Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama. The combined population of Central America is between 41,739,000 (2009 estimate)[2] and 42,688,190 (2012 estimate).[3]

Taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America

This fits my understanding of Central America. I never thought it included Mexico. Mesoamerica, on the other hand, does apparently include a good part of Mexico. But Central America and Mesoamerica are subsumed by North America as is more commonly understood.

[cynth]

It’s believed that the Clovis people caused the extinction of these animals but the current theories of the Clovis people are put into question with the given archeological, linguistic, cultural and DNA evidence of the Book of Mormon . . . .

No ripliancum, the Clovis people were NOT Nephites and Lamanites. They are perhaps the earliest known human inhabitants of North America, based mainly on a distinctive point artifact, called the Clovis point. They are associated with Pleistocene megafauna, which places them all the way back to 11,000 to 12,000 years BP.

Clovis people is a interesting case but Lasenb It did not happen in meso america there are no goats cattle breastplates wheat barley , etc etc in meso or south america

His comment referred to dates, ripliancum not things. Can you respond to that?

[ripliancum]

My post was not about the clovis people. But the clovis people are a interesting subject becuase scientist have speculated that they caused the extinction of several Book of Mormon animals to include elephants horses, and sheep in North America. Elephants, sheep and horses are both mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

Current theories about the clovis people do not line up. For one its believed that the clovis people crossed the (Barren) Bering ice bridge. But clovis points are not found in Siberia or east or central Asia. The vast majority of clovis points our found east of the rocky mountains almost completely absent in Alaska

See map of distribution of Clovis/fluted spear points one will see that the majority of spear points are located where heartlanders believe the Lmanites and Nephites are located.
http://pidba.org/content/fluted.JPG

The Bering Ice Bridge theory also has serious dna problems. Australian and Polynesian dna is found in South America but the dna is dated to when scientist believe that humans were not capable of making trans-ocean voyages. Other dna that should show a crossing from Asia to North America is missing in key places. The meso american problem of middle east dna not found in meso america exist with the Bering Ice bridge theory. Middle east dna does exist with north American DNA. Scientist dating of this dna does not fit dna distribution or the archeological cultural artifact and linguistic See quotes.

“The prevailing theory is that the first Americans arrived in a single wave, and all Native American populations today descend from this one group of adventurous founders. But now there’s a kink in that theory. “
“If Aleutian Islanders or their ancestors had somehow mixed with an Australasian group up north or made their way south to the Amazon, they’d leave genetic clues along the way. “It’s not a clear alternative,” argues Reich. “
“Three Amazonian groups—Suruí, Karitiana and Xavante—all had more in common with Australasians than any group in Siberia. “
“Both studies therefore suggest that the ancestry of the first Americans is a lot more complicated than scientists had envisioned.”
“There is a greater diversity of Native American founding populations than previously thought,” says Skoglund. “And these founding populations connect indigenous groups in far apart places of the world.”
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-n ... 76/?no-ist

“Haplogroup X is remarkable in that it has not been found in Asians, including Siberians”
“In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population”
(The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia
Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9707616292
“Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor”
“The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry”

“The Naco Mammoth Kill Site is an archaeological site in southeast Arizona, near Naco, Arizona. The site was reported to the Arizona State Museum in September 1951 by Marc Navarrete, a local resident, after his father found two Clovis points in Greenbush Draw, while digging out the fossil bones of a mammoth. Emil Haury excavated the Naco mammoth site in April 1952. In only five days, Haury recovered the remains of a Columbian Mammoth that had been killed by the use of at least 8 Clovis points…“

"Named the Mahaffy Cache after Boulder resident and landowner Patrick Mahaffy, the collection is one of only two Clovis caches -- the other is fromWashington state -- that have been analyzed for protein residue from ice-age mammals, said Bamforth. In addition to the camel and horse residue on the artifacts, a third item from the Mahaffy Cache is the first Clovis tool ever to test positive for sheep..."

There is another that clovis crossed the Atlantic ocean but this theory is laughed at by the majority of scientist.

Anybody who believes that mankind started with Adam 6000 years ago and not cavemen will take issue with the 13000 year dating of the clovis people it could not be past 6000 years and there is no physical evidence supporting the current theory that the clovis people migrated from Europe to central Asia to the arctic regions of Siberia. Nor is there a reasonable explanation if why people would migrate from life sustaining temperate climates to the barren subarctic inhospitable wastelands needed to cross over to North America.

[ripliancum]

Hebrew and Greek language comparisons
There are examples of Hebrew customs, characters, beliefs and language among Native Americans. According to Mormon, they knew how to write in Hebrew and of course had Hebrew customs and beliefs (Mormon 9:33). The Greek language is also compared to the Native American languages of the Indians.
“Antipas – name of a general in the BoM (Alma 56); name of a mountain in the BoM (Alma 47:7, 10); It is a Greek name, an abbreviation for ‘Antipater.’
Archeantus – Nephite commander (Moroni 9:2); a typical Greek formation, made using the Greek prefix ‘arch-‘ (“great, chief”), as in the Biblical Greek names Archelaus and Archippus.
Judea – the name of a Nephite city (Alma 56, 57); it is the Greek (i.e., New Testament) form of the Hebrew name ‘Judah,’ referring to the tribe, the Southern Kingdom, and the area of southern Palestine occupied by the tribe of Judah (the Jews).
Angola – city name at Mormon 2:4 – Greek ‘angelos’, meaning ’angel’”
Mormon 9:33 – And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.
Creek Indians also had similarities to the Hebrew language. Considering that Nephites became Lamanites and Lamanites became Nephites this is not surprising:
“The name of the Creeks for man, is ishto, and so it is in Hebrew…The same remark might be made with respect to the word Kenaai, for Canaan. Jehovah they call Y-he-ho-wah. The roof of the house they call toubanora; in the Hebrew it is debonaour. The nose they call nichiri in Hebrew, neheri. The great first cause, Yo-hewah; in Hebrew, Jehovah. Praise the first cause, in their language, halleluwah; in Hebrew, hallelujah. Father they call abba; the same in Hebrew. Now they call na; in Hebrew, na. To pray they call pliale; in Hebrew, phalae. In their language, abel is manslaughter; the same in Hebrew. Wife, awah; in Hebrew, eve, or eweh. Winter, kora in Hebrew, cora. God, Ale; in Hebrew, Ale, or Alohini. A high mountain, ararat; the same by the Indians of Penobscot.”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 282)

“Their languages are very diverse and differs as much from one another as Dutch, French, Greek and Latin. Declension and conjugation resemble those in Greek, for they, like the Greeks, Have duals in their nouns and even augments in their verbs.”
(In Mohawk Country: Early Narratives About a Native People)

[ripliancum]

Cynth i would venture to say that most TBMs believe that mankind started 6000 years ago with Adam and not 200000 years ago from monkeys. LDS leaders are not big fans of the idea mankind came from pond scum and cockroaches.

A dating of clovis people of being past 6000 is irrelevant. If you believe that mankind came from pond scum and cockroaches that's your belief but its not a popular TBM belief.

[DesertWonderer]

I often wonder if Ripliancum is really an anti-Mormon b/c of the shear magnitude of the disinformation that he/she promotes about the BoM--possibly to discreetly and subtly muddy the waters?

[larsenb]

I often wonder if Ripliancum is really an anti-Mormon b/c of the shear magnitude of the disinformation that he/she promotes about the BoM--possibly to discreetly and subtly muddy the waters?

That's occurred to me as well. You can correct and refute many of his assertions and there is absolutely no pick up. No dialogue whatsoever.

[ripliancum]

If you think there is miss information about the Hopewell civilization the clovis or from the research papers quoted feel free to correct it.

Saying that there is misinformation without showing one example is misinformation.